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Why Eloise tries to help fulfill destiny, if whatever happened happened

Celebok May 1, 2009

Okay, I'm going to try to explain my take on why I think Eloise has been putting so much effort into making things happen the way they are "supposed to". This is long, and I already know this is going to sound rather confusing, but here goes.

First, Eloise does know that the past can't be changed, i.e. whatever happened happened. Whatever happened, however it happened, is how it always happened. In addition, she also understands another concept, which is that for the people who have not experienced or witnessed how something happened, from their perspective, they still have free choice. They can choose to do whatever they want, but the outcome will end up being whatever has always happened. It's only a free choice to that person because that person has no idea what the outcome is going to be. This is why Daniel told the group when they first arrived in 1974 that nothing they did would matter, because whatever choices they made were what always happened. They simply had no knowledge of which DHARMA people and which Hostiles lived or died, so they didn't have the opportunity to change any history that was known to them.

Now, where it gets confusing is when you have vague knowledge that something happened around a certain time, but you don't know exactly how it happened. For example, if you met Ben Linus in 2004 and then travelled back to 1977 and met 12-year-old Ben, you would know that this kid will eventually grow up and become the leader of the Others. Then if you see that kid get shot, you know that he somehow survives that gunshot wound, but you don't know exactly how at that point. You can choose to do a number of things, but the only thing you know for certain is that no matter what you choose to do, a chain of already-established events, which you may or may not be a part of, will lead to Ben surviving that gunshot. Eloise interprets that as "course correction", but it's really more like false sense of free-will in a predestined set of events, in that you don't know the immediate ramifications of whatever choice you make, but ultimately the choice you make will be the choice that you always made.

Now, getting to the reason why Eloise tries to make things happen the way they are supposed to, it gets even more confusing, but I still think it makes sense, given what I've established in this theory thus far. Suppose I was really bent on changing the past. Even though I've met Ben Linus as an adult, I go back in time and meet him as a child, and I decide I'm going to kill him. Because the past can't be changed, I will ultimately fail. Even if I'm somehow a better shot than Sayid, or say I decide I'm going to walk right up to young Ben and shoot him point-blank in the head, something he couldn't possibly survive, something will stop me from doing that. If it didn't happen, then it can't happen. This is where it may seem like a form of course-correction, but it's really the way it always happened, and my attempt at murdering young Ben is just a part of history that has already happened, and I simply never knew it until I went back and lived it. Now, given that, the question is, what happens that prevents me from carrying out my futile mission? I, of course, won't know until I actually try it, and it could be something as benign as my gun jamming up, but there's a good chance that it could be something catastrophic that happens to me, like suffering a heart attack before I can pull the trigger, or getting struck by lightning. Since I don't know the immediate outcome of my actions, but I do know that young Ben won't be killed, the smart thing for me to do would be to not even try to kill him, because if I do, then something will prevent me from doing so, and it's best to not try to find out.

So what Eloise is doing is basically taking the path of least resistance by helping things along toward events that she already knows took place. In the days leading up to the Oceanic Six return to the island in 2008, she already knows that some of them ended up on the island in 1977, but she doesn't know the details of how they will end up on Ajira Flight 316. So when Ben tells her about his complications with convincing them to go back, she knows that one way or another they will still end up on the island in 1977, but if it doesn't happen the only way she knows how to get them back, then something drastic and unpredictable will happen instead. This is why the only response she can give is, "Then God help us all." If she and Ben don't succeed in their mission to get them back, then she doesn't know how they will end up going back, and she doesn't want to find out.

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  • I agree with almost everything except in "Flashes before your eyes" she says to Desmond

    "if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead."

    So while like I said I agree with you I think she was activly influencing/changing/course correcting things herself

    Also like when she deliberately steers Daniel on a Physics/science path.

    She did it b/c he came from the future and changed her life from then on out, but if he didn't come from the future he never would have influenced her and she would have let Daniel become a musician then despite his connection Widmore wouldn't have chosen him to go. But if he didn't go then they never would have known about/interacted w/ jughead and caused (my theory) the incident (although if jughead changed things then there would be course-correction) ummm yeah i'm gonna start going off in several this/then scenarios, but I think you catch my drift....

    so basically I agree but think she doesn't JUST take "the path of least resistance" I guess. Though who knows how hard things might be if she didn't tell Desmond what to do.

    But again, that's not what was supposed ot originally happen. Desmond was to ORIGINALLY (in Eloise's words) "give the ring back" and "break Penny's heart" although he did break it anyway so ummmmmm....yeah....

    and Gustavo Brunetti I think you make an excellent point

  • I don't know who said that: "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it". I think it has much more wight if you take time travel into consideration.

  • Wow, I cannot believe I've only just come across this blog after such a long time! Celebok, you might just be a frickin' genius here for explaining everything so many of us seem to have been thinking in such a clear way.

    A couple of thoughts that have occurred to me from reading everyone's comments: 1) Perhaps Eloise tried to alter things so that she wouldn't have killed Daniel. All of these attempts failed, which is how she knows about course correction and what happened, happened. 2) I think perhaps the reason she bothers getting ivolved in all of it in the first place, rather than just sitting back and letting things take their natural course (as Harcourt suggested) is that she needs to find a way of justifying her inadvertent murder of her own son. She has to make it worth him having lived and therefore uses her knowledge of time travel, aided by the notes in his journal, to ensure that things happen as they should. 3) Perhaps the reason why Eloise suddenly doesn't know what will happen next is that everything she's known on previous occasions has been from her (or someone she has spoken to) having experienced those events, so she knows they've already happened in the life of one of the people involved in the incident. Desmond is in hospital during the latest point in time that we have seen in LOST so far, so potentially nothing in anyone's future has been experienced by Eloise or any of her people yet, therefore she doesn't know what will happen next.

    I hope I've been as clear in my explanation as everyone else has been in theirs. Do let me know what you think.

  • Interesting point about repeated attempts to change history making things worse. I wonder if perhaps that happened to Eloise at some point, perhaps between the time she kills Daniel to the time she meets Desmond in the jewelry shop. Like she might've failed at several attempts to change events that she knew had already happened (whether through time travel or something else), and she interprets those failed attempts as the universe course-correcting itself.

    by Celebok
  • celebok: I've considered it's possible that knowing the future causes a sort of madness, making one obsessive about making it happen, perhaps after repeated attempts to change it make things worse, finally causing a person, whose will is merely mortal, to give... she loses her free will, and it is replace by the will of history.

    she looks a bit mad!

  • Harcourt, what i meant was that Desmond like Eloise (forget about the rat) in that they know the path and the outcome. Eloise does not fight it and therefore no course correction takes place....Desmond however tries to change what he sees and is repeatedly course corrected. The rat just ran the maze the way it thought it had been taught...no further thought on the rat.

  • Harcourt, that's actually a good point, and I think the thing with Eloise is that she's being over-obsessive with fulfilling known destiny. It's like she knows what's supposed to happen, and she feels she has to go out of her way to be a participant in making sure it happens. But I think that's just her nature, or maybe there's a valid reason why she thinks that way, but in any case, events in the past played out the way they did because of her obsession with "destiny".

    by Celebok
  • blackrock: the mouse, eloise, also saw the future via consciousness traveling, and Faraday was able to induce that with an aparatus.

    Special like magnets, rare in nature, easilly manufactured with knowledge of how they work?

  • it's a nice theory but I just can't picture Eloise's action as "the path of least resistance". The "path" of least resistance would have to be not sweating it, not getting all dramatic about "you must get them to go or god help us all"... least resistance would be more like "they don't want to go!" and she says "oh, really, interesting, wonder how they get there, but whatever".

  • Until now, I've been naive enough to think that the annoying double-post phenomenon could never happen to me!! Hehe.  :-)

    by Celebok
  • Thanks for all the compliments! I totally wasn't expecting it! I'm glad to know my blog post was helpful. Of course, I don't claim that anything I've written is 100% correct, but it's the best explanation I can come up with given the information we have at this point.

    Ber418, it seems that your questions are directed at me, but I can't really answer them because they don't make any sense. Daniel dying has nothing to do with my theory. We have no other knowledge of Daniel's death, outside of actually seeing it happen at the end of this week's episode (The Variable), followed by the article that came out with the producers talking about Daniel's death.

    I don't know why you would think Daniel died because the Island didn't want him to tell Desmond to turn the key. He died because Eloise shot him in the back! Either way, again, whatever you're talking about has nothing to do with my theory.

    As for why Eloise says it's the first time she doesn't know what is going to happen, that part I'm not sure of. My best guess is that she learned about future events from the time-travelling Losties in 1977, and she carried that knowledge all the way up until 2008 when she sent the Oceanic Five back to the Island. Her knowledge of the future ends at the moment Ajira 316 takes off from Los Angeles, because those are the people who carried that knowledge back into the past. Therefore, nobody has any knowledge of events that happen after Ajira 316 takes off. As for when or who told Eloise about future events in 1977, I suppose we might see that in the next few episodes. After all, at the point where we last left off, Jack and Kate are still hanging around just outside the Others' camp waiting for Daniel.

    by Celebok
  • Thanks for all the compliments! I totally wasn't expecting it! I'm glad to know my blog post was helpful. Of course, I don't claim that anything I've written is 100% correct, but it's the best explanation I can come up with given the information we have at this point.

    Ber418, it seems that your questions are directed at me, but I can't really answer them because they don't make any sense. Daniel dying has nothing to do with my theory. We have no other knowledge of Daniel's death, outside of actually seeing it happen at the end of this week's episode (The Variable), followed by the article that came out with the producers talking about Daniel's death.

    I don't know why you would think Daniel died because the Island didn't want him to tell Desmond to turn the key. He died because Eloise shot him in the back! Either way, again, whatever you're talking about has nothing to do with my theory.

    As for why Eloise says it's the first time she doesn't know what is going to happen, that part I'm not sure of. My best guess is that she learned about future events from the time-travelling Losties in 1977, and she carried that knowledge all the way up until 2008 when she sent the Oceanic Five back to the Island. Her knowledge of the future ends at the moment Ajira 316 takes off from Los Angeles, because those are the people who carried that knowledge back into the past. Therefore, nobody has any knowledge of events that happen after Ajira 316 takes off. As for when or who told Eloise about future events in 1977, I suppose we might see that in the next few episodes. After all, at the point where we last left off, Jack and Kate are still hanging around just outside the Others' camp waiting for Daniel.

    by Celebok
  • Ber418, I'm confused. Are you saying Daniel tells Desmond to turn the key? Are you talking about the key in The Swan? If so, he's not the one who told Desmond to turn the key. Kelvin told him about the key, but he chose to turn it due to Locke busting the computer. Also, Daniel will not live. He is dead [1].

  • I agree with almost everything you've outlined here, except on the matter of course correction. Course correction (This is merely my opinion on the matter) applies to "special" people, like Desmond. He is the only one we know of who can live in the true present yet get flashes of events that are about to happen. Since he knows not only outcomes, but also events leading to those outcomes, he attempts to change things, ie: Charlie. Yet no matter what he does to stave it off, it will happen. That I believe is where Course Correction comes in.

  • Really well written, but I have some questions. Based on your theory, do you think Daniel will live? Or does he die because the Island never wanted him to tell Desmond to turn the key? Also, why does Eloise tell Penny that for the first time she has no idea what's going to happen? Isn't it because she knows that by sending Daniel back he is going to change the past/future?

    by Ber418
  • 1st of all, Celebok, if you are the 1st to write this down, then you should patent it because I'm about as positive as you can be that it is right on the money.
    2nd, this makes me wonder whether or not Christian & Eloise were just "blowing smoke" when telling Locke(Christian) & Ben(Eloise) that everyone must come back. They just needed Locke & Ben to talk to everyone & get everyone they could to go back....... knowing all the time who would be on the flight & who wouldn't (Aaron). Also, I bet Eloise knew the whole time about the flight & it wasn't something she necessarly found out about through The Looking Glass Station. She just did that to make it look convincing.

  • very nice explanation I completely agree. I want to see one of the characters realize this and just not give a shit about anything bc they know it doesn't matter.

  • Celebok - Probably the most well-written, easy-to-follow example of how his probably works. Well done. I also agree with the "Now, given that, the question is, what happens that prevents me from carrying out my futile mission?" topic as it seems to fit with when Tom asked Michael "did the bullet bounce off your skill or did the gun just jam up on you?".

  • good job. I was trying to explain the same thing to my friends the other night but they we're really getting it. I'm sending them right to this post.

  • good explanation - and i think this is what the writers are intending to put across too

  • yes it does. You my friend have taken this and lined it out as simple as you can. It's easy to understand the course correction thing. With this post, its safe to assume that people can see and understand the "whatever happened, happened" thing a lot more clearly now. Good job.

  • makes perfect sense :)

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