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Let's call the flash sideways timeline "afterlife"
We should probably discuss this on some article's talk page, and we did. Then admins deleted that article - at my suggestion. So I feel I should revive the discussion.
The producers called the season six off-island action "flash sideways". So we started calling the world the "flash sideways time-line" or the "flash sideways world". But:
- They aren't flashes. We flash to them, but it's no more a world of flashes that Iraq is a flashback world.
- They aren't sideways. We view them alongside the main narrative, but that's the same with secondary stories from throughout the series.
- There is no time in the afterlife. (This one's a joke, sort of. But lists are cooler with four items.)
- It's not a separate timeline.
What do we call the article that describes the afterlife? We can discuss that on its talk page. I want here to say that we should headings on characters pages and elsewhere that cover what happens in the afterlife... something besides "flash sideways". Something descriptive, like "afterlife" (not Purgatory) or "after life" or "post death" - that last one requires that we rename what we now call "post-death".
We don't need to title sections using names the producers have given us. We never have before. Characters don't have giant sections called "Flashback timeline" or "Flashbacks". We call these sections "Before the crash" or "Before the island". We don't have a big heading called "flash forwards". Some pages may list flash forwards as a subheading, but most don't even do that. Instead, we use the heading "After the island". Similarly, even if we keep calling the narrative technique "flash sideways," we needn't title character history headings the same way.
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Maybe this will help. It is more than clear that what WAS called the Flash sideways, is clearly the characters Afterlife. Just Sayin' you are arguing against yourself. Afterlife encompasses all spirtual, religious and even non-religious even scientific viewpoints and beleifs as it is merely..after...life.
We now know it is afterlife depending only on what was said in "The End" (there are numerous other reasons) but pay attention to the reveal. since there was a reveal, now it needs to be termed accordingly: Afterlife.
@Balk is absolutely correct and totally unbiased. We referred to the smoke monster as the smoke monster until we learned that it was MiB. Then we only referred to the Smoke Monster when we are discussing that particular physical form, but it is more accurate now to refer to the entity as MiB. If we were to learn the NAME of MiB we would then stop calling it MiB and use the name given to us.
s6 what was called flash sideways refers to the characters experiences in "their afterlife". so it is only correct to use Flashsideways as a viewing mechanism but not describing what it is. The viewing mechanism is Flash Sideways, and it shows the viewer The Afterlife.
there can still be a page for smoke monster, but it is MiB. We can still have a page referring to the "Flash Sideways" but as far as describing the characters story and experiences it is THEIR Afterlife we are talking about and it should be labeled as such...Peoples personal beleifs do not matter.
So if you are arguing for Flash sideways it is inaccurte because this only describes how the creators chose to SHOW us Their Afterlife.
So it is only accurate to use afterlife, but yes "moving on" also could work, it just is not as accurate or encompassing.
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WHAT?! Not sure how I ended up in this discussion, from six months in the future; but it seems as though I was meant to find it.
@Balk- We have obviously discussed this before, and I know you're standing on this topic is no different than it was in July. But I will reiterate my stance, I do not think that the Flash Sideways is the Afterlife. THE only thing that I think is "after---life" is the church scene, and even then I think it is more of a nexus point of "all lives" that allows them to connect and move on from there.
Therefore, after reading the thirty six bazillion posts on this page I feel that the proper terms should be either "LA X timeline" or simply "FSW"
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My standing on the topic is different from how it was in July. I still know that the flash sideways showed the characters' afterlife, and Lostpedia states this unambiguously on dozens of pages. I however now recognize that the afterlife encompasses more than the flash sideways. The whispers, for instance. And Charlotte Malkin's resurrection. Thus we now have the page afterlife.
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Nice, I just glanced at that page. I'll read it in detail when I get a chance, but that definately is a more appropriate way to state the idea. As "afterlife" is more of an all encompassing theme, just as "life" in itself is. It's all relative in the realm of the show.
Funny, I was thinking of something else. Didn't the writers at one point jokingly refer to season six as "the zombie season? before the season aired. Just jokingly of course, but it seems to hold some water. Perhaps we could refer to flash sideways as "the living dead?"
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Ah. but that presumes that they're living. Perhaps, instead, the Walking Dead? I'm sure that infringes on no one's copyright...
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@Dharmafolk, what do you think about "Moving On" as a header instead of "Afterlife" or "Flash Sideways"
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A lot of discussion has taken place since I last came on here, and it has gotten far off the point. I think 99% of Lostpedians will agree that the Flash Sideways World is an afterlife, regardless of personal expression of religious faith. This debate does not rest on the personal beliefs of the members of Lostpedia, or even how this afterlife can relate to these beliefs. It rests on a NAME. Ontological arguments hold no relevance on this page.
However, while I too believe that the Flash Sideways World is indeed an afterlife, I object to the proposal to change the name. Why? Because I think the term "afterlife" is a poor reflection on what this world is really all about. It may be true, but it is a vague representation of a place that meant so much more for these characters. Since the existence of a "Flash Sideways World" does not exist in contemporary world religion, we can only assume that the writers DEFINED this world (perhaps borrowing elements from Eastern philosophy in the process). By saying that, we can use the term "Flash Sideways World" (or "Sideways World" - my own personal preference) to show a more precise understanding of what this world really means. "Afterlife", while it is technically correct, is too vague and mundane, in my opinion. For reasons I have listed above, the word "Sideways" can also be used to reflect parallels between the real world and the next, and I firmly believe that in using this term, we will be defining a world that is so much more than the typical afterlife depicted in world religions.
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Good gravy! I thought for certain this would be settled by now...amazing. Well, with the show over, and the epilogue being taboo, this argument is what we got left...sad.
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@Balk, I am trolling?? xD That is the funniest thing I have ever heard!! Still, why can't we think about "Moving On". It can refer to both view, it can be them Moving On from life or it could be them Moving On from the island
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Thought I'd chime in with the results of that vote....18-18 tie between FSW and Afterlife, so not much we can do with those results I suppose.
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@Balk, Yes, we agree that Jack "died", however, the description of his Flash Sideways is where there are varying interpretations and meanings to describe this experience. Although you and others may agree with a simplified version of what afterlife means. There are many contradictory interpretations that have very different connotations of the term. Your link to the dictionary on afterlife proves this point. This is why I feel the term "afterlife" is not appropriate as a description of the Flash Sideways. Also that term actually negates the creators/writers purpose in using Flash Sideways and LA X to allow for our religious and non-religious beliefs and perspectives in concluding our interpretations. I believe the creators/writers chose generic terms to avoid any historical connotations to other terms like 'afterlife'. Afterlife brings immediate and varying connotations to viewers. Whereas, we have no preconceived idea of what Flash Sideways may represent. Therefore, whether we are religious or not, we are free to interpret the Flash Sideways based on our personal beliefs and perspective.
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@Just Many interpretations about many things but only one about what we're discussing now. That the characters had died. Jack: "I died." That's all the confirmation we needed.
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@BalkOfFame - You're correct about it being the afterlife. @Just Sayin' - Stop sayin'.
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@Balk, again, you gave absurd examples that compared apples to oranges. The anka example is absurd in that we can see the anka and all agree it is an anka. The anka example was not a fair analogy to using a term to describe the Flash Sideways. When we view the Flash Sideways, there have been various views of what it represents. We did not come to the same conclusion.
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Those aren't varying interpretations. Those are varying names.
"The afterlife", "Life, After Death", "After Life" are all just different names for continued existence after death. And I don't mean in some metaphysical "they're all different names for love" kind of way - those are literally words that mean the same thing. "THE Afterlife" connotes something in particular because it emphasizes "the" implying a single afterlife.
Again, even the afterlife belief that you describe is, in fact, an afterlife - conscious existence after death. You disagree because you disagree on the meaning of "death," but in Lostpedia articles, you must accept the conventional meaning of death, which Lost supports - you drowned, your bomb exploded, you got shot in the heart, no oxygen to brain, you're dead.
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Balk, you ARE trying to describe LOST's Flash Sideways as "afterlife". There is NO Lost's afterlife. That term has never been used within the context of LOST. It's only been used as an interpretation of the Flash Sideways. Some have said the afterlife is the Flash Sideways. Others have said they are moving on to the afterlife, after the Flash Sideways experience. Others don't see the Flash Sideways or Moving on as an afterlife at all. You're right we don't name things after what they may represent. Afterlife falls into the category of what the Flash Sideways MAY represent. Is it Life, After Death? Is it After Life? Or is it THE Afterlife? Or does afterlife even exist? Again, the answer is not clearly given to viewers. The creators/writers purposely left it to our individual interpretations. It's our interpretations that individually describe what the Flash Sideways and Moving On represents.
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@Just The Ankh example was purposely absurd. It proves that if we know what something is, we can describe it even though the show doesn't use its name.
We don't know exactly what the flash sideways show at all. All we know is that's it's the afterlife. That the characters died, and the flash sideways show what comes next. (If you don't believe in death, replace "died" in the previous sentence with "died inasmuch as anyone ever dies".)
Yes, we egged him on. But with arguments, which implied we read his comments, responded and wanted a response in return.
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Ah, what the flash sideways represents. At last I have my answer to what you mean.
Yes, the flash sideways could represent any number of things. But we don't name things after what they may represent. We describe what they are. And then we analyze them elsewhere to our hearts' content, offering all sorts of interpretations on blogs.
The Swan computer represented the dichotomy between rationality and mysticism, science and faith (in my unoriginal opinion). But it was a mechanism for discharging electromagnetism. The cave entering the Heart represented the vagina (maybe). But it was a cave. The Island, in many ways, represented Purgatory. But it was an island.
Describing what something is does not at all undermine literary or spiritual interpretations of what it represents. But we must accurately describe what it is before any such speculation.
I'm not trying to describe my Christian perspective through Lost's afterlife. I don't believe in Christianity, I don't believe in Lost's afterlife and Lost's afterlife ignores Christianity.
I gladly describe Lost's afterlife because the afterlife exists in Lost, though I don't believe in any real afterlife. Will you describe it because death exists in Lost though you don't believe in any real death?
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@Balk, perhaps Metroid feels as I do. That what they are saying is being disregarded as "wrong" or "irrelevant".
Perhaps some of the responses between D Toccs and yourself are actually egging them on in an effort to make their point. You keep bringing up the anka. For the life of me. We can clearly see it's an anka. The same is not true for the Flash Sideways. It's an apple to oranges comparison. The Flash Sideways does not have a clear interpretation. We don't view the Flash Sideways and all of us say...this is what it is. We have differing views. That much is VERY clear.
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@Balk, It's painfully clear, that we are not going to agree on this subject.
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@Balk, it's not about what you and I believe, but that there are a variety of beliefs as to what the Flash Sideways represents. The creators/writers made a choice in their terminology. We need to respect their choice of terminology because it does allows viewers to enjoy and relate to their own interpretation of what the Flash Sideways represents. I only gave you a single interpretation, there are many. The Lostpedia blogs are evidence of the many perspectives.
This discussion is about the Flash Sideways and terminology to use in the character pages. While I understand your grasping for simplicity to prove your point, it does not change the fact, that you and I respectfully disagree about the term afterlife being used to describe the Flash Sideways. I think we would both agree that what you describe, the source of life, death and rebirth, can be metaphors for a variety of beliefs, religious and non-religious. LOST viewers are not just Christians with Christian beliefs.
You are so stuck on the one perspective, it's apparent you only will accept that perspective. You don't believe in the afterlife? Really, even with your A+ on the subject? Why is it so hard to accept the creators/writers terminology? Why is it so hard to accept varying perspectives of the Flash Sideways? People are capable of thinking differently and coming to their own conclusions. As I've indicated, there is evidence this was the intention of the creators/writers. Why not accept that?
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He repeated the same words in several posts with increasing capitalization without responding to my arguments. It looks like he just wants to egg me on.
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@Balk, I don't believe Metroid is trolling. Why are you being so harsh?
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@Just But how does your belief about what happens to you after death at all affect what the show says happened to Jack? I don't believe in an afterlife at all, but I don't search for a Lost interpretation that contains no afterlife.
Does your religion accept that the source of all life, death and rebirth exists on an island? And that supernaturally powered humans have protected it for millennia? Of course not. So why don't you seek a neutral interpretation of the Heart that reconciles it with Christian beliefs?
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@Metroid Are you trolling? The show never used the words "afterlife", "tears" or "ankh". They never called Jack and Locke's relationship a "rivalry". They never referred to the food shortage as an "economics" issue. But these words all have applicable meanings. Why not use one?
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@Metroid, I totally agree with you. It was never called "afterlife". It wasn't called that for a specific reason, well beyond hiding the reveal of the finale, IMO.
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@Balk, I wasn't raised Catholic. In fact, I've had very negative experiences within the Catholic church environment. I have had the good fortune of being exposed to a variety of religions, including Catholicism, Lutheran, Baptist, Mormon, and Congregationalist. And later in life even Judeism and I've been known to attend non-denominational churches. And amazingly enough even different sects within some of these religions. Fortunately, for me, this has given me the ability to see religion and spirituality from many different perspectives. While I may not agree with all perspectives, I have come to form my own perspective and spirituality. Again, while I respect your perspective and your faith, I decided long ago, there are elements of the Catholic faith that I do not agree with. This is one of those instances. While I agree there is a point of separation of the Body and Soul, I do not agree this always results in "death". We call it dying, but it is a part of the life process that allows our life to continue perhaps to a different realm, perhaps to another life. At a funeral we celebrate that person's life. We mourn our loss of that life in this world. But we also have faith in believing our loved ones continuing life beyond our world. Although I can see how you are using the term "afterlife", it does not change the fact, that I don't see it the same way that you do.
It makes sense to me the creators/writers have realized these differences in belief and the variety of perspectives within the LOST audience. Therefore, the Flash Sideways experience is open to a variety of interpretations. Afterlife is your interpretation. And even then, there are differing views of what afterlife means and represents within the story of LOST. Once again, this is why we need to stay with the creators/writers terminology.
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Yes but they NEVER CALLED IT AFTERLIFE!!!!!
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If your soul is alive and well and continuing in another realm, you're DEAD. You haven't been annihilated. But you died. The concept of "afterlife" is the very thing you're describing - that after death, the soul goes on.
I was raised Catholic, took the London Bible exam and got an A*, and death, says the Church, is the separation of body and soul. Which happens to work fine with this concept, but that's irrelevant. What matters is: in Lost people die. "Everyone dies sometime," was practically the show's closing statement. We don't know what happens after light enters the church. But to get the LA X - they died.
