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Time travel/Theories

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Main Article Theories about
Time travel 		Main Discussion
 Theories may be removed if ... 
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  2. More appropriate for another article.
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Contents

Jacob's enemy orchestrated the Time Flashes to manipulate John Locke

While at first the time periods visited seemed random. This is because we were learning about them primarily through the eyes of several different survivors. However, when focusing on John Locke's experiences only, and using current insight regarding the events of the Season 5 finale, a pattern begins to develop: John Locke's experiences during his time-traveling better serve to enhance his faith and his connection to the Island, and these experiences were a direct result of the manipulation of time traveling by an outside force; conceivably and specifically, Jacob's enemy. Let's look at John Locke's final moments on the Island:

  • "Because You Left"
    • The Beechcraft First time jump; 1990's-ish. A crucial moment in John Locke's history with the island was the discovery of this airplane and the events that transpired. Look it up. Huge impact on John to experience this crash firsthand. This would likely influence his faith that the Island is guiding him somehow. Then he is shot in the leg and left for dead. Until...
      • Meeting with Richard. And guess who else? Jacob's enemy in John's body, and Ben listening in the distance. Jacob's enemy manipulated Richard to go over there. The words that Richard used to persuade John were the words of Jacob's enemy. He was minipulating all of them. John's mission is to leave the island, retrieve the Oceanic 6 and Ben and bring them to the island for some unknown purpose. This is also where we learn that John might have to die to accomplish this. So the flaw in logic is that the man impersonating John Locke after the return to the Island on Ajira 316 would have to know that John would die, and that the success of this plan would somehow lead to the events of "The Incident" for all parities involved. He would have to know the future. However, conceivably an enemy that had the ability to time travel might know a thing or two about the future or the past.
  • "The Lie" and "Jughead"
    • The Flaming Arrows. During "The Lie" the survivors, not including John Locke, are attacked on their camp by a mysterious group or archers. After they escape, They reunite with John, after he saves them from a group of people in U.S. Army fatigues. We learn in "Jughead" that these individuals were a group of people living on the island including Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking, and...
      • Meeting with Richard, part 2. Part 1, technically. John makes his way into camp and meets with a version of Richard who is meeting John Locke for the first time. We know that John has a history with Richard. We know that Richard visited him in the hospital the day he is born, and that it was this future/past John that suggested he do that. Richard visited him as a boy, and was always telling John how special he was on the Island. Richard has a ton of faith in John. I think that this is the direct result of this experience. My belief is that the individual who is causing the time travel is using this particular experience to manipulate Richard Alpert. He will listen to whatever John Locke says to him. John always speaks the truth, and Richard recognizes this through all of his experiences with John over the years. So when Jacob's enemy comes to town in John's body, no matter how outrageous his demands, Richard will always obey.
  • "The Little Prince"
    • The Hatch, dude. The Hatch! After another time switch, John Locke and his people are taken to a night that happened a few months prior during Season 1 of the show. The events of that night at the hatch, where John sees the light from the underground facility is one of the most important moments from John Locke's life. The moment his faith is solidified. John is calling out to God, and God answers. Of course, it's not God. It's Desmond. But that doesn't matter. For the character of John Locke, this seals the deal. He has total faith in the Island. Whatever happens, John is going to go full force. Now he knows what he has to do. He is going to follow the path set out for him by Jacob's enemy without question. He thinks he is doing what is best for the Island, for his friends, and for himself and his devotion, but he's not. We know now that it was a manipulation, and I believe that John had to come to this decision by no other means. The enemy knew that John would have to experience a string of miracles, as he always does, before he would be convinced to do his bidding.
      • Back to the Future The survivors travel through time again. Probably to now. It is a time after Ajira 316 has crashed on the island. They are persued by unknown assailants. They travel again, out of harms way. It's 1988 and Danielle and her team of Scientists are living on the island. There are a series of jumps through time before John finally makes it to the Orchid station to complete his task of leaving the Island. These time jumps do appear to be more random in nature, but the rapid pace with which they occur begin to take their toll on the individuals involved. Charlotte, Miles, and Juliet could be dying. People everywhere are lost and alone. John is the only one who can stop the turmoil. While the current events of the time periods visitied may not have any direct impact on the storyline of John Locke, the well-being of everyone on the Island is his priority as leader. They arrive at a modern version of the Orchid Station, before quickly being transported to an earlier time where they find a well that John Locke enters. While John is going down the well, the group is taken to a time before a well even existed. The result of this is John ending up at the bottom of the well with a broken leg. Very similar to what happened during "Because You Left", John is injured (in the leg), and meets with an eerie individual who instructs him further on his path. This time it is Christian Shepard. We don't fully understand yet who Christian is working for, or the how or why. He has stated in the past to John that he represents Jacob and his desires. We don't know what's going on with that. But he has the information that John needs to return to the island after he has fulfilled his mission. He also tells him how to leave. John leaves with the assistance of a big wheel.
  • "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"
    • John travels to the modern day in our dimension to reunite the Oceanic 6 and return them to the Island. John is a failure in his mission and is filled with self doubt. He discovers that maybe Richard was right. We know what happens after that. John dies. This new guy takes over John's identity. For what greater purpose, we cannot know, yet. Part of that plan involves manipulating Benjamin Linus to kill Jacob, with some assistance from Richard Alpert. Things that have been set in motion for some time, but at least begining with the time traveling.
  • Based on circumstantial evidence, Lewis and Faraday have traveled to the island before, utilizing time travel on at least two separate occasions. Faraday's reference to Desmond Hume as his "Constant" suggests that he will in the "future" travel though time. However, both times eventually resulted in their deaths. One occasion they were passengers on Oceanic 815 but died when the plane broke up. This would explain Faraday's inability to articulate why he's crying when he learns of 815's crash. Their bodies are located in the pond below the waterfall in Whatever the Case May Be (observed by the long red hair on the woman). The other occasion: that they are Adam and Eve in the caves, is based on hints suggested in The Island that the presence of the two has something to do with the issue of time travel.
  • My take on the course correction. Mrs.Hawking must have already lived through Desmond's future. If she was only Conscious shifting, once she found her Constant, she would be grounded. Desmond has not had any premonitions since he found his constant. If, course correction took care of any and all changes to the past, Why would Mrs. Hawking need to intervene to make sure Desmond stayed on the right path? Obviously Desmond has some influence on his future. On the Season 3 DVD, Damon describes Hawking as "some sort of temporal policeman in place to make sure that everybody who is supposed to get to the island, does." He says this is related to the grand scale of Fate vs Free Will. Mrs. Hawking has a vested interest in Desmond making it to the island. Why...that part I am unsure. Has she already lived Desmond's future? Is she part of a group that includes Abaddon??? (Possibly Charlie and Christian too.)
  • Despite the line Daniel fed Sawyer, events can and will be changed by time travel. Whether it is to put things in order that were wrong (ala Quantum Leap and Jouneyman), or to adjust events for other reasons, remains to be seen. Locke meeting Ethan and telling him that Ben made Locke the Others' leader actually set off the chain of events because Ethan told Ben what Locke said before he disappeared. Likewise, other Lostie time travel connections will change events leading to the "Because You Left" troubles.
  • The rules that Daniel stated do apply, minus Desmond. All of the events we are witnessing have always happened, the time traveling losties (Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Miles, Daniel, & Charlotte), TTL for short, have always influenced some events on the island. Some Instances: (1954)Locke has always given Richard the compass, and made his claim to leadership, sending Richard on a quest to find him. The Natives (Others) have always been told by Daniel to bury Jughead, thus insuring that it hasn't detonated by 2004. (1970s or 1980's) Daniel has always told young Charlotte that if she comes back she will die. Daniel has always worked in the Early Orchid. (1988) Jin has always been with the Danielle's Science team on their first day(s), allowing him to stop her from going into the cavern after Montand, and not getting infected by the monster. Saving her life. (1990's) Locke has always seen the smuggler's plane crash, and has always been shot by Ethan. Ethan retains the knowledge of the event, but after the 815 crash, Ethan is undercover and does not reveal he recognizes Locke, or simply does not recognize him. (2004) Season 5 Sawyer has always witnessed Aaron's birth, while Season 1 Sawyer was at the beach. (Future) The TTLs have always stolen the canoe with the Ajira water bottle, and will always be chased by Future people. Couple of tidbits that tie in: The Monster seems to leave certain people alone, particularly the TTL members it encounters, Locke and Juliet both experienced flashes of light from the monster. While Eko, Nikki, and Science team were not as lucky. Now you will say that Locke, Juliet, and Jin were all harassed by the monster at certain points. I agree. Locke and Jin were both in large groups trampling through it's territory. A Threat to the Temple. Juliet on the other hand was with Kate, whom the monster has a personal grudge against, after She attacked it with Dynamite to save Locke. My point with all this, The TTL Group is not changing time, but simply traveling along their strands of the string, or their particular groove in the record, if you will.
Now on to Desmond, Daniel has stated that he is unique, and that the rules don't apply to him. Daniel then tells Desmond to find his mother when he gets off the island (Eloise Hawking). Desmond then wakes up in 2007-8, with a new memory. This is due to Desmond's previous experiences with Time Travel, after releasing the energy from the Swan and being thrown back to the past. Desmond's mind operates on a different level and can slip back and forth easily. This is why Desmond slipped away in the episode "The Constant" when the helicopter got slightly offcourse, leaving Sayid and Frank uneffected. Regular people can be effected, but they must be much more offcourse to do this. This is how Minkowski became infected, he was not special also, just a very bad navigator. So when Daniel approached Desmond, in "The Beginning of the End", Desmond could see the effects of the island about to move, this event temporarily sent Desmonds mind to his 2007-8 self, and deposited the information there. This leaves the 2004 Desmond, Locke & Jack find in the Swan, having no knoweldge of the events.Jnorton 06:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • When you go back in time, you can only “change” things that don’t have an impact on your destiny. In other words, if you went to church on a specific date in the past, and then went back in time, you wouldn’t necessarily go to church in your new timeline. However, if you changed a belief as a result of going to church the first time around, “fate would find a way to influence you into that belief.” Perhaps you would have a near death experience, or maybe a mysterious person would greet you in a jewelry store and tell you that you need to change your beliefs… or, maybe fate would just kill you since it couldn’t find a way to change your belief.
  • If you go back in time and die, you are not “totally” dead because there has already been a variation of the universe where you were alive in the future. Thus, you become “half dead” until time catches back up. In other words, your presence may be known to some people but not others. Your presence would only be known when you are required to make an impact to fate.
  • Basically, the “rules of the time machine” are not governed by any physical definitions of time travel. The “rules,” if you will, are governed by how FATE decides to preserve the timeline. Thus, if you are required to do something profound in a future timeline, fate will find any way possible to preserve the timeline – we’ve seen ghosts and smoke monsters in LOST. So according to the show’s definition of time travel, fate “does have a funny way of course correcting.”


Image:lost_timeline.jpeg

Who and What Travels through Time

Presumably all living things within the proximity of the island travel through time along with non-living objects within a certain radius.

  • Animals may also travel through time, but we haven't seen any time traveling boars so far.
  • There is a radius of effect, otherwise they couldn't bring their possessions and larger objects such as the boat with them.
  • The island itself does not travel through time. Inanimate objects, such as the camp buildings, also do not travel through time.
    • If these items did travel through time, they would randomly appear in areas where the losties would've noticed them. Also many items would appear in the exact same location as themselves in the past, causing serious problems.
  • Items that are in touch with persons, who experience timetravel, remain affected by the flashes, i.e. the Zodiac and the rifles. Presumably, this also applies to living objects.


Theories and Concepts by AlekMilo:

I think the fact is that Widmore never had that memory until John literally did that in real time (went to Richard's camp and met Locke). It's like time was changed, memories were changed. Pretend locke is in a real time time line. He never saw Widmore until he did it. Widmore didn't have those memories until Locke (in his own time line) was time traveling and he encountered Widmore. Unless you think that everything is predestined or predetermined, and Locke was meant (according to his future timeline which is essentially pre-written out for him) to go and meet Widmore because that is the memory that Widmore had since a youngster. This concept of predetermination/destiny kinda sounds like the writers, but I don't think that it is true. I don't think that Widmore had the memory of the old man he didn't know growing up. That memory and all the memories that go along with remembering this old man were transfered to Widmore and became a part of him when John travelled through time and changed it. This goes against the Whatever Happened, Happened theory, but recently I have been disagreeing with this theory more and more. I have seen many examples of changing the past. Its a matter of conflicting time lines that intersect. Sayid didn't have the memory of shooting young ben until it happened, that's because it just happened. However, ben would have had that memory as long as he can remember. I think that ben was never shot and had grown up never having known he'd been shot by a "middle-eastern-looking" guy (later to know him as Sayid), UNTIL SAYID SHOT HIM IN THE PRESENT (His present-Sayid's Most Recent memory). This changed time and ben's memories. Some people think that Ben knew Sayid had shot him when he commissioned him to make some hits, saying that he thought sayid was a natural born killer and that's how he knew. But, I disagree with this: Ben didn't know yet but all the memories were transferred to him when Sayid actually did that in the present time frame. Also, Richard told Locke that next time you see me I won't recognize you because the next time he saw him would be in 1954 and he would have never met John Locke. So you see he didn't have that memory since the 50's, John had to go back there and do it. This is the same with Widmore, and Ben. Richard seems to be all knowing. Even though his past 50's self wouldn't know who John is, he knew in the future that John would go there and he wouldn't recognize or know him. This is why I think that Richard had possibly died, possibly at some point after his 50's self and he became all knowing of past and future. This is kind of how it seems for dead people. We don't know about Locke yet, but in the mobisode where you see Christian sheppard right after 815 crashes, he is in the clothes he was put in the coffin in and now he's standing up. Talking about his son Jack, he says: "He has a lot of work to do". I think that dieing and coming to the island in some way gives you a preternatural understanding of what has happened, what will happen, and what will happen in the past. I think Richard is like this.

I think that Abbadon helped John get to 815 because Alpert/Abbadon/Widmore or someone else knew John was special and needed to go to the Island, it has been forecasted that John is special and the ultimate leader for the Others. Its not because Widmore had remembered John and told Abbadon to encourage him to go on the walkabout. Also, Alpert visited John at a young age, he knew what John would become and he visited him at a young age because he can travel through time. Its also possible that Abbadon is a vessel of some kind that works for the island, somewhat independently of Widmore and his organization. Abbadon says "I get people where they need to go". He might be special in his own way and know things. Or there really could be pre-determined fate in which Widmore remembered Locke before he even did the act of meeting him. I still disagree with this. I am fairly firm in my theory of changing the past and when you change someone's past all of those memories get transferred to them and applied to their time line. It is possible that Desmond is special, in the way that he communicates to Faraday/others through time, but I still think that these people who travelled time changed other peoples' memories (essentially adding memories)- Desmond woke up with the memory. Question: could someone refresh my memory on when Charlotte said she remembered faraday before he even met her as a child in his current time line. **IMPORTANT: Charlotte was caught in that process where she keeps traveling through time at extremely high rates (in her own mind and consciousness): the future and the past. This was the same as that lady that Faraday was experimenting on in Oxford and she was stuck in that state in a hospital bed and desmond visited her. Charlotte eventually did too, like Symkowski or whatever his name is. That process that happened to them killed Charlotte and its possible that during that she was all knowing or traveling through time so rapidy that she saw faraday talk to her in HIS near future, thus she was given that memory throughout her lifetime (it was transferred to her through the process of ultra-fast time travel that she was going through). Its kinda like when desmond was going through that exact thing on his own: He was mentally transferred to times in his past when he knew the future: like when he ran into Charlie on the street playing that Oasis song. That process, or whatever you want to call it, makes you essentially travel through time and be all knowing, it can possibly make make you travel to the future or know the future as well. Charlotte had it bad. *Also it can make you NOT all-knowing like when desmond lost track of where he was and who he was with when he was on the Helicopter with Frank and them and he had what seemed like a full loss of memory. But what it really was was the process: Desmond's Consciousness of Time and Place got mixed up and jumbled through the process. This is what the island (?electro-magnetism?/not following exact coordinates off and on the island/relative time being different) can do to you, it mixes up your consciousness of time and place, giving you future knowledge or, in Desmond's case, a lack of present knowledge. Its all fairly confusing and has a lot to do with Space time, but excluding the process where you are traveling through time at highly rapid rates and seeing and doing things, I think that normal rules apply. Normal time travel is what Locke was doing- He changed time when he saw and met Widmore for the first time, thus altering Widmore's own memories/timeline. Its different when you get stuck in what happened to Charlotte, that Lady that Farady F-ed up in oxford, and what desmond was going through. remember you have to find a constant, etc.... Also, going back to the Eloise Hawking theory of whatever happened, happened: I think it is true that if someone was, for example meant to die, that they will. This means that you can't change things that are important or meant to happen as prophecized by who/whatever (The Island?, Fate?). Michael couldn't kill himself, the Island wasn't done with him. Charlie had to die even though desmond kept saving him, its specific things. When eloise told Desmond that she couldn't have saved the man in the red shoes, this is true. That was meant to happen. **** This doesn't mean that you can't travel through time and change things (ex. Locke and Widmore, Ben and Sayid, Faraday and Desmond)- You can still change peoples' memories if you travel through time and impact them. It just means that you can't change events that were meant to happen and were supposed to happen. This could explain why Sayid couldn't have killed Ben at that age because he was meant/supposed to do various things

==


an other theory

the whole time traveling thing. the people on the island we have seen so far who traveled have all spent time on a certin part of the island, the beach. julliet swyer, gin, farrady miles. at least one of the suvivours of 815 can't remember her name the hostess was with the others, talking to john locke when they moved out of camp before the island moved, locke after a load of adventures was with this group when the island moved and traveled through time but apparently she didn't.

desmond spent the most time on that part of the island (not on the beach but only 15 min walk away) and his time travel 'condition' is acute.

in the first and second season we saw the others draw a line of demarcation on the island and also 'kidnapping people' for there 'own good'.

the original 'hatch' had quarinteen markers around it

the people who went back to the island includeing ben all spent time on the beach.

could what ever happened that made the hatch nececessary, could one of the consequences be that it infects people on that part of the island and make them prone or extra scencitive to the whole time travel thing.

just a suggestion or a obsorvation on similarities that might not mean anything.

Various Timeline Possibilities

Single Line Theory There is only one time line. Everything that happens always happened. All events are predetermined. Time travelers cannot change the future.

  • Fictional Example: "Twelve Monkeys"

Multiple Line Theory Every time you travel back in time you create an alternate timeline. Time travelers can change the future.

  • Fictional Example: "Back to the Future"

Collapsing Alternate Line Theory Alternate timeline can occur, but are unstable and will eventually collapse back into the "main" timeline. Time travelers can change minor things, but the universe course-corrects to undo or prevent major changes.

  • Fictional Example: "Donnie Darko"

Can the Past Be Changed?

Yes

  • Immediately after telling Sawyer that the past cannot be altered, Daniel goes on to change the course of time himself by speaking to Desmond Hume.
    • Desmond is an exception to the natural rules of time travel.
    • This was caused by his triggering The Swan's Fail-safe mechanism.

No

  • Nothing that has been shown to have happened on the show has been seen to not happen in the past at a later point in the series as a result of time travel.
    • It's always been that Faraday spoke to Desmond at The Swan's back entrance; Desmond's chronologically altered conscience and special connection to Daniel allowed Faraday to trigger another instance of Desmond's past state of being consuming his consciousness (like in The Constant) in 2008 when he is sleeping in his boat at an exact moment that would set course a chain of events that leads Desmond arriving at Eloise Hawking's door at the very same time as Jack, Ben, and Sun and will ultimately result in Desmond making his return to the Island. Daniel caused this by personally (rather than Sawyer) knocking on the Swan's door. The past Desmond's memories are treated in the same manner as his experiences in The Constant and Flashes Before Your Eyes.
  • Either WHH or you automatically change things just by being there. You can't have it both ways. Since we've seen pleanty of cases for the former (the compass being the most obvious) then we'll have to assume that is right. Desmond might an exception, something that goes way beyond a variable. The thing with Daniel changing him mind because of variables is absurd: x=x is the first rule of mathematics. Once x is determined it will always equal x. On the other hand if somehow something is changed then you don't just change the past - you erase it completely. xy=z If any one of the variables are changed the other variables will be rewritten. However I have doubts that anyone but Desmond being capable with this.

It may be possible through complex mathematical prediction

  1. The Valenzetti Equation "predicts the exact number of years and months until humanity extinguishes itself."
  2. DHARMA is attempting to change key numbers in the equation in order to change its outcome, i.e. the future, but is as yet unsuccessful.

It stands to reason, then, that time is fundamentally unchanging (whatever happened happened) and that DHARMA is trying to find a way to make an exception to that rule by predicting what factors must change to change the outcome.

If change is possible by means only predicted in complex equations, the odds of a character stumbling into an action that will alter the future (such as Sayid's choice to shoot Ben) are extremely low, so we can discount individual moral decisions from altering time. However, since we have seen many things deemed scientifically impossible, such as disembodied voices, smoke capable of "grabbing" people, and seeming resurrections[1][2], it follows that one of the show's many scientists may yet discover a way to make it possible to alter the outcome of certain events even if this has been set up as an impossibility.
We still know very little about the equations used by Eloise Hawking to predict the island's movement, but they proved very accurate and could well relate to DHARMA's study of the Valenzetti Equation.

Grandfather Paradox: No Resolution

If Juliet detonates the bomb and destroys what WOULD have become "The Swan" site, then the Crash never occurs. But if the Crash never occurs, Juliet and Jack and Sawyer and Kate et al would have never gone back in time to set off the bomb in 1977. I see no resolution.

  • That's what I've been thinking of too. Unless the crash of 815 results into everything that ever happened. And to nullify everything (I literaly mean everything that happened from the time a lostie appeared on the island in '54), the thing that has to be done is to stop the crash. Whereby nothing really ultimately makes sense unless the appearence of DHARMA is connected to the crash. I think...

The Moebius

The Losties (and maybe the Island) is stuck in a temporal Mobius loop, and the resolution of the story only comes when they figure out a way to break through it. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNb4VKln1uw

The Losties are trying to change the past- but their attempts to change the past IS the past

This becomes more and more clear throughout Season 5. in This Place is Death Charlotte mentions seeing Daniel in her past as a child. This happens in The Variable, exactly how she describes it. Chronologically from the Losties' point of view, this hasn't happened yet. In Jughead, John Locke tells Richard Alpert to visit him as a child if he doesn't believe him; Richard is there at his birth and a point when he is five years old in Cabin Fever flashbacks. In This Place is Death, Jin's actions to keep Rousseau from entering the hole prevent her from getting the sickness her science team got. In The Incident, Parts 1 & 2, Miles theorizes that blowing up the hydrogen bomb IS the Incident they're trying to prevent. This makes sense with the above connections. Simply put, I'm trying to say that if you travel to the past, you're actually PART of the past; you become PART of the past, you don't change the past. You can't change the past; you're in it. As a side note, if Richard wasn't lying about "watching all [the Losties in the past] die", then it's goodbye to Jack, Juliet, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, etc. Since this is extremely unlikely to kill off all of the remaining original losties except Sun, I assume Richard was either lying or misunderstood.

  • Also, in Namaste, Juliet helps Amy give birth to Ethan. It doesn't seem likely that a drunken Horace or anyone else would be able to help give birth on the Island. And in Whatever Happened, Happened, Miles summarizes this theory when Hurley is thinking about time paradoxes.
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