Contents 1 Is Daniel really dead 2 Who just deleted half of the theories on the theories page??? 3 Discussions moved from theory page 3.1 The Flaw in Daniel's Theory, or Why the Past Still Can't Be Changed 3.2 Daniels Journal 3.3 Why did Faraday care so much? 3.4 Why does Richard NOT know Daniel in 1977? 3.5 Eloise Hawking's Knowledge of the future 3.6 Desmond as Ultimate Cause 4 Suicide? 5 Daniel in the video from ComicCon 6 Desmond, the variable 7 Young Daniel's Age in 1977

Is Daniel really dead Edit

I am so bummed Daniel is probably dead. I'm still hopeful he gets taken to the Temple. The whatever happened thing makes me think he has to live because he's alive in the future. But the writers are really messing with us on this one. By that I mean the dead is dead thing and the variable thing. Annarboral 03:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah it sucks, but look at it this way - his was arguably the best character story arc on LOST (and perhaps TV history). I'd rather have a great story arc than the character be alive with no good resolution.

Please understand that while there is a Variable to the whatever happened, happened theory..... if the theory holds true, Faraday is not necessarily alive in the future as you say. This has been talked about for a while, but just this episode is the latest talk of this fact. Remember his conversation with Jack while Jack is bandaging his neck? They are in their present!!! Daniel could die from the gunshot by Eloise, but still be alive in the future because their is another Daniel about to be conceived and born as the son of Widmore & Eloise. This doesn't change!!! While they are in 1977... Daniel, Miles, Hurley, Juliet, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Jin, & Sawyer are IN THEIR PRESENT so they can die. They are not re-living their past. Sorry, if that is argumentative but we've got to get past this understanding of LOST time travel.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  19:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• I understand that this is their present, but where I have the problem is from the perspective of an independent observer watching the story unfold in the proper time sequence. If an observer were hovering over the island in a space ship, would they see people just appear or disappear, get shot, die, then appear later? I keep thinking of Bea Klugh who seemed awfully anxious to get shot. Did she know it wasn't permanent? Annarboral 04:52, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

• You are making the mistake of having the independant observer consider time as sucession, as a line, like we experience it, which relativistically speaking is totally useless, as that would mean he's just another element being carried by the same time stream and his lack of understanding what's happening is irrelevant. Make the observer (us?) able to see time as a whole. He'll see Daniel being shot in 1977 and then he'll see that Daniel is NOT in 2008, which makes perfect sense. Your post applied to young Ben, as under WHH and seeing how he is alive in 2008, that necessarily meant that he didn't die when Sayid shot him as many speculated. Maokun 23:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• Ok then running with that idea, Faraday was in the outrigger canoe with Locke, Sawyer, Juliette, Miles, and Charlotte when they flashed briefly to the future 2008 when the Ajira water bottle was there. Will he and Charlotte be seen then, if IIana and crew get to that point in the time line? We already know they will go to the survivor's beach and trash it, then chase Locke and group in the other canoe.Annarboral

• Yes, Daniel & Charlotte will still be there as they already lived that experience before they died. Answering your question about looking at the island from a spaceship..... yes, they would see people appear & disappear in that specific instance. That is exactly what Richard saw when Locke dissappeared after asking him how to leave the island. Being dead, Daniel's timeline & experiences can no longer be created, but everything he has done in 'his present' will still happen. That specific scene is the only one we know of where anyone traveled to a future they haven't yet experienced but the princiles still apply.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  12:43, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• OK so when Locke and group ride in the canoe in the near future, what could happen next? It seems to me that they will either disappear mid-water as they did before during a time skip back to the 80's or they will carry on with the story from there. Even though time isn't skipping anymore, it seems they will disappear? In my mind the reason Locke is now alive is because of this skip to the near future.Annarboral 00:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

If Daniel is really apart of the Dharma booth video, then it would stand to believe that he doesn't die. But we don't really know if that video is cannon until it is shown on the show.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  19:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

After reading the Damon & Carlton LP interview, it seemed like they were considering the Booth Video to be "more promotional than canon."-- Steele  talk  contribs  14:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Cannon: Daniel is dead. [1]  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  14:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!-- Roobydo  talk  contribs  13:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It would be really lame to use the temple power that frivolously; lame for the show and for the Others - they respect the cycle of life and death. Not to mention "dead is dead"

He is definately dead. The only hope for that video would be if Daniel makes a last cameo in Season 6, shown using his experiment to get back (physically or mentally) to post-Incident Dharma time to make the video with Chang. Keep in mind that if all of this serves no purpose to the show's actual story line, there's no point for the producers to go out of their way to save the validity of some fanboy video from a convention.--Petezilla 21:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

• What if he's simply not dead? I mean, Ben survived a more compromising shoot (on his chest) at least enough to be able to be carried to the temple. Daniel's wound appeared at his right side around the location of his kidneys. It's totally probable that it's not a lethal wound and he just fainted as result of the shock/blood loss. It also makes more sense for Eloise to attempt a disabiliting shoot that a killing one, otherwise it would have been easy for her to aim for the heart or the head from that distance; wouldn't she want to know why Daniel was seeking her? Finally, I know she's not the kindest woman in the world, but she seemed pretty nonchalant for someone that just killed a man in cold blood. Maokun 23:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Nevermind, just read the article. :( I was quite upset when Charlie died as he was the most humane and sensitive side of Lost. He was somehow replaced by Daniel, and now he's dead too, so we're now left only with tough guys and girls. And Hurley, but he's too much of a comedy relief to be able to take on that mantle. Maokun 00:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Who just deleted half of the theories on the theories page???Edit

I did. Please refer to LP:TP For guidelines reguarding theory edits.-- Roobydo  talk  contribs  22:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Why did you delete all those theories? I was reading some really good one's on there. I posted the beginning of my "White Queen" theory and now it is gone! What gives, man?--Mrmagic522 23:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Please refer to LP:TP. All the theories that were deleted were either discussions of other theories, duplicate theories, or other type of entry that should have been deleted. Or, if you added your theory before my edit was complete, it may have reverted straight to mine. If your theory follows LP:TP guidelines feel free to post it again. (you should be able to find it in the old versions of the page if you don't want to type it again). My apologies for any inconvenience.-- Roobydo  talk  contribs  23:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

It would be best if you waited until the discussion died down before you started sorting through all the theories and deleting things.

I agree. Sitting here for an hour after I edited the page just udoing posts trying to keep it from filling back up with discussion was not fun. I'll try to wait a week or so after airdate before editing theory pages from now on. BUT, that doesn't mean discussion is allowed on theory pages.-- Roobydo  talk  contribs  13:47, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to know exactly what constitutes a theory "discussion," are the site hosts now saying that theories may not be refuted on the theory page? Exactly what purpose does the theory page serve then? Who decides which theories are worthy and which aren't? May I recommend giving up on this distinction and just allowing a theory/discussion page instead of two different places. That's like going to two different stores to get my cereal and milk just to have breakfast.

Lostpedia decides and their decision is located at LP:TP. Also, there is no need to refute a theory if it has actual evidence to it and is not speculative. But, if for some reason they have evidence but it should still be refuted, then you can add a refute if it is an actual theory also. Otherwise, it can be removed and moved to the Talk:Theory page. In this case, you are on the Talk:Theory page for The Variable.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  00:29, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

• It is my understanding that you are allowed to add pros and cons to a theory as bullets under it. For example: "This would also explain why..." or "This is supported by the fact that..." or "This is doubtful since..."--Mrmagic522 02:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I would argue that those are "Responding to another theory" and are subject to deletion. Instead, add evidence to the theory. For example, you could change "Widmore is Faraday's father." to "Widmore is Faraday's father. He and Eloise Hawking are the correct age and spent a significant amount of time together on The Island ("Jughead"). Also, Widmore is funding Theresa's care ("Jughead") to protect Daniel from the legal responsibility of his experiments." This provides better evidence for the theory without making the article any more cluttered or harder to read. Also, the wiki-links make additional information about the theory easily accessible, and therefore unnecessary to mention in the theory itself. The "This is doubtful since..." is definitely not acceptable since most theories, however plausible, are also refutable. Unless the argument can be formed into a standalone theory, it should be posted on the Talk page. -- Roobydo  talk  contribs  11:29, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I understand this and the need to keep the policies, but if a theory is misleading (and worse, it sounds logical enough) what use is to refute it here in the talk page? I know for a fact that people not involved in a wiki will hardly read Talk pages, so if a casual browser sees a misleading theory and he never reads the talk page to see why that theory is deifnitely unplausible, he might get wrong ideas and never know. Not to mention that it also avoids repetition. Example: If someone posts that the Daniel that got off the submarine was Daniel from the past, then he gets refuted, showing that he's far too you at that time to do so and THEN both posts are deleted, eventually someone else will come and say "ohh no one has ever come with the idea that it might be Daniel from the past! It's my chance to post a new theory!" While if both, the wrong theory and its dismissal are left there, people coming to the page with those ideas will be foiled immediately. Maokun 23:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussions moved from theory page Edit

The following discussions have been moved from the Theories Page per LP:TP

(note: ALL of the following are unsigned)

The Flaw in Daniel's Theory, or Why the Past Still Can't Be Changed Edit

• Aside from the fact that it would make a crap sixth season, there is a major reason why neither Daniel (if he survives) or the other Losties (if Daniel dies and they carry on his work) can detonate the hydrogen bomb and prevent the Incident. For the most part, Daniel was right. Humans are variables, the are capable of free will and shaping their own futures; there is no such thing as destiny. However in this case, there is an appearance of destiny; not because they truly are destined to do these things, but simple because these things have already been done, being in somewhat of a time loop. Thing is, as long as the time loop remains true, it makes sense (while is seems paradoxical at first glance, scientifically, it is not). However, they cannot prevent the incident from happening, for the exact same reasons Daniel thinks that they should. Daniel thinks they should detonate Jughead and prevent the Incident from happening, so that Desmond will never fail to push the button, Oceanic 815 will never crash, and the whole string of events will never happen. But if those events never happen, then Dan and the Losties are never in the past to prevent the Incident...so those event will happen again. So, by preventing the chain of events from happening, they would make it so that they were never there to prevent the chain of events from happening, thus creating a true paradox.
• Thank you. The time loop theory is where I'm leaning. These folks are truly LOST in time and by that I mean they are stuck in this never-ending loop. The Losties might all have to die on the island in 1977 in order for things to happen again. They die in DHARMA Time only to be already living as children or yet to be born off the island at that time, just to grow up, take a plane from Sydney to LAX and crash yet again. They may all have to die in an "incident" to change their destiny thirty years down the line. Are you brave enough to kill yourself now, to save your future self?
• Right, People are variables. But events like the incident are constants. You can't change that. The time travelers have the free will of killing themselves but they will always have killed themselves and won't change anything in history. But they have still acted out of free will by committing suicide. If they are alive in the future, then they have never made that choice. And if they didn't make that choice, they can't change their mind while living through that time once again. This suicide-example shows pretty good what's possible.
• Most people agree that Faraday's new theory isn't quite logical and wouldn't play out as he said. The big question is: Why did brainiac Faraday stop being rational? Either he was really getting crazy or he wanted to Jack to do what he was supposed to do and lied to him (similar like his mother).
  • Charlotte. The entire scheme is an attempt to save Charlotte from dying on the Island in 2005. Love makes men do irrational things; Hawking knows this, and it may be part of why she warns Daniel against getting into relationships.
  • Charlotte is probably the direct reason why she warned him against it, she appears to know what Dan is going to do, and he is deviating from what he needs to do to protect/save Charlotte. The minx! --Pdtmathieson 10:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
• Due to the comic relief shown in "Whatever Happened, Happened", it is safe to assume that the writers are merely forcing us to question our beliefs in Free Will vs. Determinism. The efforts used in trying to stop the Incident from ever happening is what makes it happen in the first place.
• It's not that free will does not exist. People will always be able to make choices. It's just that we have already made those choices and we don't know it yet (a la The Matrix).
• It's quite silly to say the 6th season would have to be crap if the show isn't a single-timeline method of time travel. There's already a plethora of evidence that the timeline can be changed using time travel, and that Ben and Widmore have been doing so on purpose. There are some parameters within which things can not be changed (Charlie dying) but other circumstances in which things CAN be changed (Charlie not dying the first 8 times). It's not clear what these rules are, but it's clear that the timeline CAN be changed, and that these efforts are the focus of the entire show.
  • I can't think of a single thing that stands as evidence for an changeable-timeline that cannot be explained some other way. Unless we get a major plot twist that tells us that time is changeable, then the rest of the season will play out like season 4; we know what happens, but we find out how it happens.
  • The sixth season would be crap because it would be nothing but a bunch of people landing in LA and doing a bunch of boring stuff for 6 months. And so far there has not been a shred of evidence that the timeline can be change.
    • Exactly...probably the most compelling argument for the timeline not being changeable is that it would ruin the show -- the first five seasons would be negated and the sixth would be pointless. The writers know this. No way. Instead the actions of Jack & Co. will end up causing the incident instead of preventing it, and whatever happened will still happen.
• I agree with two points; It would lessen the potential of the sixth season (although I trust the writers/producers to keep it from sucking) and it would break what we currently consider logical and factual (although discussing time travel in general brings it into the realm of theoretical). However, Lost has already presented us with two pieces of canon that supports his theory. Firstly, Desmond has had his past changed and it simply "caught up" to him, showing that yes, pasts are changable. Secondly, as referred to earlier, Eloise the lab Rat was able to use information it gained from the future, yet died before it gained the information. Both open the door for what we would consider paradox, but can be explained away in a Star-Trek-style one-liner.
• Faraday was killed by the island/universe as a "course correction" since he meant to use knowledge of the future to change the past. Truth is, this was always the course of his life since he directly interfered with his own mother and therefore his own past. I'd like to clarify this also since i am getting the inevitable "whatever happened, happened/one course" refutations. I am saying it is a course correction FROM DANIELS POINT OF VIEW; for the rest of us it is just necessary causality playing out - the reason it is a course correction is that he is using future information to try and change the course of time - just what his mother told Desmond was impossible. Since there is only one course, the term course "correction" is only a metaphor anyway.
  • Not to comment on the accuracy of your comment, but I was very disappointed with the 'course correction' route lost started a couple of seasons back - it spelled the death of the reasonable explations for mindf*cks that they were using in favour of wacky, improbable, and fantastic nonsense. Still can't help but watch it, though!
• Or, they don't avert the Incident: somebody pushes the wheel right before the Incident (did you see next week's preview with somebody swimming into a secret temple chamber?) and sends them to 1985, to the time of the AH/MDG incident, which might possibly be the same thing as the Purge -- Perhaps the Incident of 1977 isnt what need's to be avoided to 'fix' everything, perhaps it is the Purge - Ben's actions must be undone. Maybe Dharma and Hostiles just need to communicate some things to each other rather than Dharma being wiped out.--Petezilla 19:59, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Daniels Journal Edit

• We have already seen this paradox in action, absolutely confirmed: Daniel sent Eloise's mind (hamster, not mom) into the future to learn a maze. Eloise came back, ran the maze, but died before having a chance to ever learn it. Daniel never taught her, so it creates a logical paradox that the writers are presenting as "okay." Daniel also presents it as possible in the attempt to change his own past with preventing the Incident. And like he already has with talking to Desmond outside of the time loop. Time course corrects, but it doesn't prevent logical paradoxes.
  • Eloise (the hamster) does in fact die before she had a chance to learn the maze, but you mistaking it with a different paradox. Check this out. Eloise the hamster travelled ahead with her mind to the place where her physical self could not have existed as long as she travelled forward with her mind. However, should she not have travelled in time, she would've learned the maze in an hour. Seperatelly those two events exist; it is their combination that is impossible. The problem of the journal is somewhat different. If the journal that Eloise (the mom) gives to Dan is filled with his notes, which he takes to the island, and then leaves in 77', which he gets presented after... this cannot happen because unlike the hamster paradox, where the combination of the events is impossible (means they may exist in parallel universes), the journal loop cannot exist in any of the universes (because it's not created).
  • I'm not sure about your conclusion if "course correction" really exists when the correction is a constant event. But you are right, the hamster is an example of the writers beeing ok with this paradox. I would still argue that they would try to avoid those situations in their storytelling and not bring it up as soon as possible (like in this Journal-Theory). Anyway where is this theory going to? Even if it was true - we will never know. Daniel is dead. It's unimportant for the story.
• If you think this theory is impossible then please explain Locke's compass, he gives it to Richard in 1954 only to have it handed back to him so he can hand it back to Richard, where did the compass originate? It is stuck in the time loop, if in one of the loops it gets broken (for some reason, just go with me on this one for the sake of argument) then from there on in it would be a broken compass going through the loop.
  • I know, but there's a difference in that something is "done" with the item. Those are 2 very similar but still different paradoxes. If the compass gets broken (which it hasn't. that's the big difference between the 2 examples. But I'll go on anyway) then it will always be broken. Because mathematically one time loop (C) is completely identical to another: lim C-> inf(C+1). And if it's always broken before the moment it breaks, it can't break again. The words in the journal are written by Faraday, but he was never able to write them because the moment he got them he has already written them. The written words have never been written.
  • This doesn't mean that his compass never originated anywhere, it just means that for a period of time (about 50 years) Richard has two identical compasses.
    • This is backed up by the fact that the compass was used as proof Locke was from the future. Why would Richard believe Locke's story if he just handed him a random compass that (from 1954 Richards point of view) could have been given to Locke by anyone? Richard knows that his lucky compass is in his pocket (or something along those lines), but here Locke is handing him his lucky compass. Satisfied that Locke is from the future, Richard now has two compasses. The 2007 one Locke gave to him and the 1954 one in his pocket. From here he puts the 1954 one in a safe place and keeps the 2007 one (as far as continuity is concerned the 2007 has completed its destiny and no longer matters as long as the 1954 one is safe. He can blow it to bits if he wants). Knowing Locke will appear on that night in 2007, he takes the 1954 one he had in a safe place and gives it to Locke to take back to 1954. So the compass itself isn't looping, it is merely jumping back in time once. Dog Man 05:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
• We did not see any of Faraday's notes and calculations in his journal. Perhaps Hawking is simply giving him a brand new journal, knowing that he will eventually write in it and prove great significance. Maybe Hawking finds his journal after she shoots him and this is what prompts her to buy him a journal in the future.
• Although we did not see any of Faraday's notes or calculations if you look at the picture of him looking into his journal on the main page, he looks like he's reading something, not staring at blank pages.
  • He is reading a note to him from his mother on the first page. I couldn't make out any of it except for the first word, "Daniel-"
    • It said: "Daniel, no matter what, remember, I will always love you. - Mother"
      • That message could refer to her knowledge of shooting him
        • Exactly. "I will always love you" is a code for "Whatever I tell you, do the opposite"

• The notebook is new when Eloise gives it to him at graduation. He is reading in it as Miles drives up to the Orchid. He says Dr. Chang is right on time, when he comes up to the van. The notebook tells him Dr.Chang should be there right then. My conclusion is that his time travel experiments, that caused his memory loss, were experiments in which he sent his mind to the island in the 70's and then wrote about it in his notebook. This best parallels the experience of the rat Eloise. Annarboral 04:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Yes, the journal he gets given is clearly new, the pages are all completely flat, whereas they are a bit roughed up at the end.

Why did Faraday care so much?Edit

• We still don't understand why Faraday did this. He returned to the Island and then frantically (and quite desperately) attempted to change the past. But why did he care so much? Could he really be so obsessed with Charlotte that he would change the events of the past 30 years to stop her from dying?
  • Love makes men do irrational things all the time.
    • But to run armed into the Hostiles camp and hold Richard at gunpoint demand for his mother in some crazed attempt to blow up a hydrogen bomb, which will most likely kill everyone on the Island, in an attempt to change the past thirty years? That would cause not only his death (and most likely Charlotte's) but it would also create a time paradox.
      • He never said he was going to blow up the island, rather he was going to use the bomb in some way to counter the catastrophic effects of the incident (perhaps tapping it energy in some way), thus preventing the button from ever having to be pushed, which led to 815 crashing and all the terrible events thereafter
        • Actually Charlotte arriving to the Island on the Freighter has nothing to do with the crash of 815. If Faraday really prevents the Incident, he will prevent the button and the plane crash from happening but NOT Charlotte's arrival. (The Freighter came to get Ben, not the survivors)So why does he care?--Matochac 10:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
          • No... If O815 hadn't crashed on the Island, then the Freighter crew would not have been assembled because Widmore wouldn't have found the Island! The point of the F-mission is not solely to capture Linus. Widmore knows that the Island has special properties, and the point of the mission he is putting together is to do specific things on the Island which he has told the F-crew to do (e.g. the Tempest). Capturing Linus is necessary because he would attempt to stop them. But Widmore would not have known where the Island was had O815 not crashed there. The plane crash is how he found the Island! That's why he created a fake... so that no one looking for the plane would find the Island.--Mrmagic522 16:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• Seems quite logical Farady would care. He's trying to prevent the chain of events that ends up with everyone of Flight 815 dying (everyone who died in the initial plane crash and everyone thereafter), as well as prevent he and the other Losties from getting stuck 30 years in the past. It would actually have made little sense if he wasn't trying enthusiastically. Once he realizes/believes time can be changed, he goes about trying to fix all the terrible things that have happened.

Why does Richard NOT know Daniel in 1977?Edit

• Um, because he didn't "know" him in 1954 - Ellie actually spent the most time with him.
• "Richard asked Daniel "Do I Know you?" Richard met with Daniel/Miles/Charlotte/Locke in 1953 (Jughead) but in the distant future he has no idea who he is. Richard is jumping through time on his own. He hasn't gone back to the time of "Jughead" yet."
  • Well, he only met him briefly 24 years ago, so even if Richard does remember Daniel, Richard would probably (and a bit ironically) expect him to look 24 years older.
    • Yes, Richard met Daniel with the belief that he was a member of the US army, which would confuse his memories of him. Plus, Richard has been dealing with many long haired, bearded men in Dharma uniforms for a while now. It may not occur to him straight away who Daniel is.
    • I thought we only saw Locke speak to Richard in 1953? And Richard has met so many people in his life (considering he is ageless) that it wouldn't be that difficult to forget someone.
    • Richard didn't remember Sawyer, either. He had to remind Alpert of the situation.
      • Richard never met Sawyer in 1954. He only met Locke, Faraday, Charlotte, and Miles. Sawyer and Juliet stayed out of the camp until the time shift.
        • Ellie says "You told Richard you could disarm this thing" - after Daniel tells her they have to bury the bomb. So he did infact meet/speak with Richard. As I said, I believe it hasn't happend yet for Richard, ie. he's time jumping on his own, or perhaps can at will.
          • Daniel,Charlotte and Miles is the first to meet Richard when they were caught and brought back to the camp. Richard came out of his tent and ask for Daniel's name and Daniel instead ask for his name. Richard told his name and said about the hydrogen bomb. He then tell Richard he can detonate it. That's not brief meeting they talk like ten minutes before he go to Jughead why people only remember Richard and Locke conversation. Richard didn't know Sawyer but Sawyer had to prove he is not Dharma so he told Richard about the bomb and all even though they never met that prove he isn't Dharma.--IceCrash 03:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
• Once Daniel refreshed Richard's memory by talking about Jughead, Richard did remember. He just didn't have time to say so because Eloise shot him. He wouldn't necesscarily remember him after all that time without knowing where. Don't forget, Richard asked Daniel 1st if he knew Daniel as if asking him where they'd met before. Richard knew his face but couldn't remember where from.
• I think with the events of that day, meeting those people only once 23 years before, it might take Richard a minute to recognize him. Although he would recognize Locke instantly, because he was the truly significant one he met that day.
• Richard DOES recognize Daniel! That's why he asks "Do I know you?" He knows that he recognizes him from somewhere but can't think what it was.--Mrmagic522 16:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes he does, Richard would have to have a good memory, or being immortal wouldn't be worth it... I'm sure he works out that he is with James, Richard seems to be on top of things, not least of all fashionable eyeliner.

Eloise Hawking's Knowledge of the futureEdit

• Though the explanation about Eloise knowing other people's future events because she experienced them in her own past seems to make some sense, the one big hole in that theory is that she tells Desmond at the Lamp Post "the island isn't done with you yet" - which, if holding to this theory, would suggest that she says that because there's still an event yet to come (but in her past) that involves Desmond and the island and she knows this because she has already experienced it. However, if Desmond is destined to travel back to the island and back in time to interact with younger Eloise, then she would know in 2008 that he WOULD survive the gunshot wound, yet she does not. That suggests that though some of her knowledge of others' future events may be through remembering things that she experienced in her own past, she still has some special way of knowing the future separate from this - and whatever that special way is gets disrupted, hence why she knew the island wasn't done with Desmond, yet now she believes that that vision, for lack of a better term, may not come true, as she doesn't know if Desmond will survive the gunshot. In other words, if all her knowledge of other people's future was through remembering her own past (or reading in in Daniel's journal, or hearing about it from Jack), then she would KNOW Desmond would return to the island for sure - yet she now is not sure, as she doesn't know if he survives in the hospital. **I got one for you - Desmond was part of the island's ancient past - arriving after a flash. Eloise learned of this through the Others when being indoctrinated into the history of the island. She knows the island isn't done with him because he is part of HER history and the island's history. Locke too, probably, which is why he seemingly cheats death and is "chosen." He's chosen by time, not god - kind of a natural selection view of destiny and spacetime.
  • This explanation would also support the theory that she has experienced flashes of the future, just like Desmond, up until now
  • I believe her not knowing Desmond's fate with the gun shot, is a result of Faraday(the variable) telling Desmond at the Hatch to find his mother. When Desmond came into the Lamppost, his info to her seemed redundant and didn't change the course of action. All it did was put him in LA, which allowed Ben to shoot him. Faraday wasn't supposed to do that, and that's why Eloise apologized to Penny. Annarboral 04:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
    • ok who deleted my Eloise theory, it was not stupid or anything. Ridiculous, all these theory pages should be deleted and disabled if people are going to delete your theories. Stick to the forums for theories and lostpedia for the facts!
      • I probably deleted it when I cleaned up the page. It did not conform to LP:TP. Please read the policy and re-post your theory. Also, All talk page edits should be signed. -- Roobydo  talk  contribs  23:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
• This was deleted from the article so I guess it violates some policy; I'll say it here. It's just a corollary of the Eloise-is-ordinary-but-got-info-from-the-Losties theory: Eloise was just make putting on a show in the Lamppost. She didn't need equations or a magic pendulum to know that the gang would get back to the Island on flight 316; she already knew it. She knew it because Jack and Kate told her in 1977.

EdwardLost 01:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

• It was deleted bacause it's a duplicate theory,"Eloise can't see into the future. She got her information from Daniel, Jack, Kate, Sayid and anyone else who flashed to the 70's and came into contact with her..." and was phrased as a rebuttal to another theory. It's a good theory though. -- Roobydo  talk  contribs  01:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I wasn't trying to duplicate the theory, I just wanted to point out an implication that I had not otherwise seen mentioned: that the whole Lamppost rigmarole was completely unnecessary since Eloise already knew specifically of flight 316. A sub-theory: The Lamppost show was for Ben's benefit; it was Eloise's effort to hide her knowledge of the future from Ben.

EdwardLost 01:43, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

• In the Lewis Carrol novel "Through the Looking Glass," the White Queen is unique because she lives backwards. That is, she experiences time backwards. She can tell others what is about to happen in THEIR FUTURE because it is HER PAST. Is it possible that Eloise is LOST's version of the White Queen who lives both forwards and backwards in time?--Mrmagic522 16:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Desmond as Ultimate CauseEdit

• If Desmond had not saved Charlie's life the three times he was supposed to die (drowning, lightning, arrow to the neck), Charlie never would have turned off the signal jammer in The Looking Glass station. This led to the enabling of the sat-phone, which led to the freighter's arrival, which led to the arrival of the science team/Keamy's men, which led to the turning of the wheel, which led to the Island skipping through time, which led to Locke stopping the flashes while the Lefties were stuck in 1974. We will discover that the O6 cause the Incident which leads to all of this futility repeating in an endless loop. It is this situation that will set up Desmond's ultimate opportunity to change things as the true variable.
  • If Whatever Happened Happened and there is a loop, then the signal jammer would have been activated by some other course events, in the same way that even though Desmond prevents Charlie from dying of lightning, he then dies trying to catch a seagull, and if not then, he dies in the Looking Glass. But, as stated below, like Daniel said: if Desmond had never failed to push the button/turned the key at the Swan, 815 never would've crashed and etc etc. If there is a loop, where is the beginning of cause and effect?
    • But if Whatever Happened, Happened, and Desmond is the exception to the rule, then he was supposed to let Charlie die before he turned off the signal jammer. The Universe is now trying to course correct.
      • The universe course corrected every time Desmond interfered by coming up with a new way for Charlie to die, Desmond merely let it go the last time. However, Desmond is actually responsible for the Swan imploding, which definitely is the cause of many things.
• On the day that 815 crashed, Desmond was supposed to press the button. If he had pressed the button, the plane would not have crashed. This is the eventual course correction that the show is moving toward.
  • This is the only thing he was 'supposed' to do that he didnt actually do

• I don't think this course correction business is course correction. The way it happened is how it was meant to happen; Charlie was NOT meant to die the first two times. If he died the first time, this would have numerous effects which would happen differently to if he died the second time; even without changing this pivotal action of disabling the jammer. Claire might have done something like run off into the jungle in anger (Losties love this move, what do they expect to do out there?), which could have caused Des and Hurley togo after her, which may have caused them to find Jacob's cabin, who could have told them to move the island... this of course is conjecture, but it highlights the importance of when something happens, and that course correction is more of making sure something happens when it's meant to, not just eventually.

Suicide?Edit

• Is it possible that Daniel knew what was about to happen as well and went knowing he was going to die (or thinks he going to die)? Maybe he was sacrificing himself or just commiting suicide. But he only looked mildly surprised that he was shot, more surprised at who shot him. The only thing I have to support this theory is that it was a little bizzare to go in with a gun he barely knew how to use. It would have made more sense to go in calmly and lie about why he was looking for the bomb (after all he is the one that made it safe in the first place). It also expalins why he suddenly changed his mind about changing the past yet decided to talk with Charlotte like it had always happened.--Domerin 19:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
  • very interesting, maybe he wanted to confront his mother to learn why she killed him, he just didn't know he wouldn't have the chance. Also this would explain why he says she "was wrong" - after his research at Ann Arbor he learned that she would shoot him and was so distraught over having been misled his whole life.
    • Daniel's goal (in some twisted logic) may have been simply to kill his pregnant mother (and himself) and collapse the time loop - particularly since he was central figure in the time loop; he revealed to young Ellie that he was a time traveler and started the Swan Station/Jughead issue by instructing them to bury it.
      • Daniel was there to find out where the Others buried Jughead, plain and simple. Annarboral 23:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
        • i guess we'll never know, will we? daniel at least wanted to confront her

Daniel in the video from ComicConEdit

I don't think Daniel is dead... as the ComiCon video (which is still a speculation) contains Faraday's voice as he's talking to Chang. This MUST have happened AFTER the Swan Incident, because the relationship with Faraday and Chang prior Dan being shot was flaky - There was no trust, it was almost like Chang had only properly met Faraday for the first time. Therefore, the Swan incident happens, Chang realises Faraday was right and plans the broadcast which we see at ComiCon. Thoughts?

I think it's possible that Daniel (time) travelled to a point just after the incident at some point we have not yet seen. Please sign all talk page edits.-- Roobydo  talk  contribs  20:47, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, Daniel IS dead [2]. No if's, and's, or but's about it. He's dead. Now, is it possible that he has time traveled or the video was made while he was still alive? Yes it is. If the Dharma booth video, proves to be cannon & not just part of the ARG, then it sure seems like it is Daniels voice. That will have to be incorporated somehow, but at this point that video isn't considered canon yet, so we'll have to see. Either way, Daniel is dead.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  13:24, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Desmond, the variable Edit

• Daniel says that the rules do not apply to Desmond. These rules may be the same rules that Pierre Chang states - you can't change anything. However, Desmond did change the timeline by saving Charlie some times. Yes, Charlie eventually died, but differently as he was supposed to die. So Desmond changed Charlie's future some times, therefore making Desmond a "variable": someone who can change things. Let's move on: if Charlie wouldn't have been advised by Desmond, he would have died by that thunder. This means that Charlie wouldn't have turned off the signal that prevented the conection with the outside world. However, one person would have done that anyway: Jack, since it was originally his plan everything involving with the Looking Glass. Jack would have got down and turned off that signal and died. This means that the rescue's call would have been done by somebody else: Kate or maybe Claire. I don't know, anyone. The island still would be moved later by Ben. The time shifts would have ocurred and then everybody else would have landed in the 70's. But Jack wouldn't be there this time because he was dead. However... Desmond, because of his flashes, acted as a variable, changing the future: Charlie died in the Looking Glass. Not Jack. Then Jack came back to the 70's... a thing he wasn't originally suposed to do. Maybe this what Daniel means of Jack "not belonging" to 1977. Desmond, the variable, changed the future, slightly, but did. And in this way, he changed the past. Whatever happened, happened, but in a strange, different way. Perhaps, when Desmond turned the fail-safe key and gave him his flashes, the new timeline appeared and overwrote the old one, that had Jack dead and not in 1977. The new one appeared and overwrote the old one. This new one is with Jack alive. --User:Dr. James
• I had a thought while watching "Catch-22" - Desmond seems certain that Penny has parachuted to the island and that Charlie must die in order for this to happen. Later, Desmond does make contact with Penny as a direct result of Charlie dying in the Looking Glass. My idea is that maybe the parachuter WAS Penny UNTIL Des saved Charlie - at that point the timeline shifted (Desmond is the only one who can do this since he is the "Variable"; he became special because of the Swan energy). Therefore Desmond's actions have a profound impact on the events within the timeline and may even allow players to change places (Naomi-Penny) in the game.
  • That seems pretty valid to me. -- Roobydo  talk  contribs  11:37, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Kudos. Yes, he can change the position of variables in the equation, but they all have to be there.--Petezilla 15:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

"If there is a loop, where is the beginning of cause and effect?"

That's the thing: to get things to happen differently the beginning of causality is the beginning of time. No matter what happens, everything will happen the way it has already happened, or else the Losties wouldn't even be there to change it. If time is an equation and people are the variables, they still can't make anything happen differently, no more than you can change the value of a variable after you've already started working out a system of equations. No matter how many times you subtract a variable, you still have to add it right back to the other side of the equation, and the solution remains exactly the same.-- Roobydo  talk  contribs  00:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• The thing about Desmond that is special is that he is able to travel through time in his consciousness only, without physically making the time travel (experiencing the future normally then coming back with knowledge about it) and therefore his flashed are exempt from WHH: when he sees a flash of the future, it hasnt happened yet. In terms of the equation mentioned above, his flashes are only projections of a solution that has not yet been set into motion, therefore the variables can still be altered before time sets the equation into motion. When he turned the fail-safe it gave him the ability to see the possible outcomes of the equation should they be set forth in their present configuration, but since he is only seeing them and they havent happened yet, there is still an oppurtunity to adjust. All the variables must be in the equation, but they may be re-ordered.--Petezilla 15:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

• I think you've got something here. Good Point. Sayid didn't know shooting Ben would maintain the time line. If Desmond had been there to tell him he had a premonition about it, Sayid would have done things differently. It may not have helped, it could have course corrected. But if Desmond was there to tell Jack for example, not to set off the bomb because he had a premonition that showed him a very bad outcome, that is too big of a change to course correct. Annarboral 04:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Young Daniel's Age in 1977Edit

I think this is either a goof or something really important. If Charlotte was around 4-5 in 1977, Daniel must be at least 7 i.e. very close to the age he was back in the first piano scene, which really doesn't add. He's either living in the Island with his mother and they will move to England shortly after these events (highly unlikely, I think Daniel has stated to never been in the Island before) or he's in England living with foster parents and then Elloise goes there and takes him to her home. This is slightly more likely, though it would mean that young Daniel is coping admirably with learning that the people he called parents for 7 years were not, and having to go to live with this stranger and call her "mother". Also, it's hard to believe that they would ship away the son of the leaders of the Island, as opposed to raise him there to be the future leader. Maokun 23:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• Why must Daniel be at least 7? What makes you think that he is older than Charlotte???--Mrmagic522 16:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
• Agreed, with Mrmagic522. Where to you get any evidence that Daniel is even born yet from Eloise in 1977? Please, for heaven's sake, do not say that the character who plays Faraday doesn't look like he's a certain age!!! That would be irrelevant!  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  16:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)