Entertainment
 

Talk:The Man Behind the Curtain/Archive 1

From Lostpedia

You can just imagine it now...

Locke pulls back the curtain to reveal... a little old man controlling everything on the island ! ...Or not. DrGiggles 08:57, 14 April 2007 (PDT)

Well it is a reference to the Wizard of OZ, who we assume is Jacob!  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  09:38, 14 April 2007 (PDT)
We can take from this then that "Oz" could also be a reference to Australia! Ooooh, I can see it now. The Prime Minister of Australia is JACOB! *gasp* ... or not. (Isolation815 15:16, 16 April 2007 (PDT))

Contents

Ben flashback?

The season finalé has been said to be Ben's flashback; is this it? Lordofthe9 10:45, 14 April 2007 (PDT)

  • No. The current lineup is this:

Catch-22: Desmond
D.O.C.: Jin
The Brig: Locke (Island)
The Man Behind the Curtain: Ben (Island)
Greatest Hits: Charlie
Through the Looking Glass: Jack ShadowUltra 11:13, 14 April 2007 (PDT)

  • If the " Man Behind the Curtain" is a reference to the Wizard of Oz, Jacob may be seen in this episode.
    • Perhaps, there is always the possibility that Jacob is not a real person but someone controlling everything using that name --Jazza 05:10, 17 April 2007 (PDT)
  • The Ben episode will also most likely have Dharma and the DeGroots (finally) as it is about Ben's life growing up on the island. Hopefully it will also have the conection between Dharma and the Others in the epi. --Freebert 20:32, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

--Elementboards44 15:19, 17 April 2007 (PDT)==Theory==

  • Is the man behind the curtain Ben or Jacob?
    • In The wizard of oz the man behind the curtain is the person controlling everything but isn't seen, I think we can safely assume the the man behind the curtain is Jacob.
It is absoulutely Ben. this episode is his flashback, as confirmed by Cuse and Lindelof in the latest podcast--Elementboards44 15:19, 17 April 2007 (PDT)

Henry Gale Reference

Can we add a note about Henry Gale in the trivia section, as he was 'The Man Behind The Curtain' in the Wizard Of Oz, and it was the name that we all know Ben used before we knew his real name. Thanks in advance for considering. --J-- 14:34, 14 April 2007 (PDT)

  • Henry Gale was Dorothy's uncle. It was a "wizard" behind the curtain. --Marik7772003 17:51, 14 April 2007 (PDT)
  • That's right and in the movie the man who played the traveling salesman doubled as the wizard (just as the farmhands doubled as Scarecrow, Tin Man, Lion). So the reference to the real person in Dorothy's life has the connotation of a con artist. It also refers to a double (twin, maybe?). And also the wizard was the only one with means of transportation and the free will to leave Oz. Lots of interesting food for thought on this one.MixMasterMike 10:29, 22 April 2007 (PDT)MixMasterMike
  • Yes, the man behind the curtain was indeed the Wizard, who was also "Professor Marvel" (a bogus fortune teller, rather than a salesman) back in Kansas. The 'man behind the curtain' was only revealed when Toto the dog pulled the curtain open. The Wizard's real name is Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkel Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs, but he shortened it to to his first two initial: Oz (The remaining spell 'pinhead').--TechNic|talk|conts 10:47, 22 April 2007 (PDT)
  • There is also the hot air balloon link: Henry Gale arrived at the island via a hot air balloon. This is the same way OZ arrived at the Emerald City both in the book and in the movie.--Houdini994 08:21, 3 May 2007 (PDT)
  • all these wizard of oz references, lol now all we need is Clair to put on two red shoes and tap them together and say "i wanna go home"--ConnerXcountry57 18:29, 3 May 2007 (PDT)
    • That's it!! Why didn't they think of that before? LOL :) -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 21:31, 10 May 2007 (PDT)

Man Behind The Curtain

Now that the title is confirmed, Man Behind The Curtain should be unlocked and redirected here. --Minderbinder 14:45, 16 April 2007 (PDT)

Done. -Mr.Leaf 14:49, 16 April 2007 (PDT)

Jacob revealed?

Are we certain that Jacob is actually revealed in this episode?

I think if that is the case we could learn a lot from the cast list which I believe has already been released- so far the only two stand-out actors are Kimberly Joseph and MC Gainey who play Cindy and Tom respectively.

Going on that, unless Jacob is revealed to be someone who's already a full-time character (or the actor simply isn't credited) i don't think we learn of "his" identity in this episode.

Yeah,but in cost of living media press , andrew divoff wasn't mentioned , only in the episode guest list.

  • Yes, jacob will be revealed. The actor who plays him is going to star in this episode..
  • I just had an idea. If he's not mentioned on the actors list, than maybe he does not have an actor at all. Jacob may be a machine, a computer. The one who chatted with Michael back at the Swan... Asgan 14:43, 5 May 2007 (PDT)
    • Some people at The TailSection are saying that Jacob is an imaginary entity represented by the doll shown in the trailer. =/ --Darkmaster 16:07, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
      • Well... Although it's as possible as any other theory right now, I still think that Jacob being a kind of artificial intelligence is rather logical, cause that may explain their sources of information, their ability to "chat" with other stations, and why he's not mentioned in the guest starring list. Asgan 09:25, 8 May 2007 (PDT)
  • The very likely explanation is that the actor who portraits Jacob does not have a speaking part in the episode (e.g. Divoff in 'The Cost of Living'), though this does not explain why they are not credited in any other Season 3 episode.--Stan 09:55, 8 May 2007 (PDT)

I'm still wondering about the possibility of Thomas Mittelwork being Jacob. I've mentioned this once before, [| here:] It seems appropriate to mention it here as well. --Gare ny 11:19, 9 May 2007 (PDT)

Jacob: Playing Mind Games?

Let me remind you that in the episode with the brainwashing scene....a slide appears. It says, "God loves you as he loved Jacob". Hmm...any ties to the biblical jacob? Please post thoughts--Clay 23:22, 9 May 2007 (PDT)

Humbug

Once the Wizard of Oz is revealed to be just the man behind the curtain , he confesses that he is a "humbug." To quote an excerpt from Wikipedia:

"Unseen for most of the novel, he is the ruler of the Land of Oz and highly venerated by his subjects. Believing he is the only man capable of solving their problems, Dorothy Gale and her friends travel to the Emerald City, the capital of Oz, to meet him. Oz is very reluctant to meet them, but eventually they are granted an audience. Every time the Wizard appears in a different form, once as a giant head, once as a beautiful fairy, once as ball of fire, and once as a horrible monster.

Eventually, it is revealed that Oz is actually none of these things, but rather an ordinary, American man who has been using a lot of elaborate magic tricks and props to make himself seem "great and powerful." When revealed, Oz explains that his real name is Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkel Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs. To shorten this name, he used only his initials (O.Z.P.I.N.H.E.A.D.), but since they spell out the word "pinhead", he shortened his name further and called himself "Oz". Working as a magician in the United States, he wrote OZ on the side of his hot air balloon for promotional purposes. One day his balloon sailed into the Land of Oz, and found himself worshipped as a great sorcerer. As Oz had no leadership at the time, he became Supreme Ruler of the kingdom, and did his best to sustain the myth."

This sounds very much like Jacob, the unseen ruler of the Others. This also implies that Jacob does not possess the healing abilities that were claimed.

--Coreyj77 09:52, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

  • This actually might refer to Locke, as seen in "The Brig." Ben says the Others were excited to see John was healed momentarily. However, he then uses Cooper to show that Locke is not as special as they had thought -- definitely a similarity to 'the ruler of the Land of Oz.'--Stan 07:16, 3 May 2007 (PDT)
    • Locke isn't The Wizard, he's Dorothy! He's the outsider (stranded by a tornado/airplane crash) that unintentionally challenges the rule of Oz/Jacob. In order to get them out of the way, Locke/Dorothy is given a hopeless mission (to kill the wicked witch/con man), but succeeds anyway. Hey, maybe that balloon really belonged to Jacob! Repeat after me: "There's no place like home! There's no place like home..." Zicsoft 13:19, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
I think the idea that the title might refer to Locke is a good one. The title may refer to Locke being shown to be the powerless man behind the curtain pretending to be something and then being exposed in the presence of Jacob who is the real thing. Given Locke's track record of disbelief and being wrong, he may go into Jacob's presence mocking the whole thing and then come out scared/humbled. Dharmatel4 11:56, 9 May 2007 (PDT)

Press release

BEN BEGRUDGINGLY BEGINS TO INTRODUCE LOCKE TO THE SECRETS OF THE ISLAND -- BEGINNING WITH THE MYSTERIOUS JACOB -- AND JULIET'S SECRET GOES PUBLIC, ON ABC,S LOST

"The Man Behind the Curtain" - Ben begrudgingly begins to introduce Locke to the secrets of the island, beginning with the mysterious Jacob. Meanwhile, Juliet's secret goes public, on Lost,WEDNESDAY, MAY 9 (10:00-11:00 p.m., ET), on the ABC Television Network.

Lost stars Naveen Andrews as Sayid, Henry Ian Cusick as Desmond, Emilie de Ravin as Claire, Michael Emerson as Ben, Matthew Fox as Jack, Jorge Garcia as Hurley, Josh Holloway as Sawyer, Daniel Dae Kim as Jin, Yunjin Kim as Sun, Evangeline Lilly as Kate, Elizabeth Mitchell as Juliet, Dominic Monaghan as Charlie and Terry OíQuinn as Locke.

Guest starring are M.C. Gainey as Mr. Friendly/Tom, Tania Raymonde as Alex, Andrew Divoff as Mikhail, Nestor Carbonell as Richard Alpert, Marsha Thomason as Naomi, Sterling Beaumon as young Ben, Jon Gries as Roger Linus, Carrie Preston as Emily, Doug Hutchison as Horace, Samantha Mathis as Olivia and Madeline Carroll as Annie.

The Man Behind the Curtain was written by Elizabeth Sarnoff & Drew Goddard and directed by Bobby Roth.

I'd just like to say: ROGER IS BEN'S DAD? W T F? And where's Jacob? ShadowUltra 12:20, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

That will certainly be an interesting episode. I suppose Jacob will be revealed to be an actual person (probably in the end of the episode) but will not talk and thus is not credited.--Stan 12:30, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

Interesting note- Carrie Preston is Michael Emerson's wife.Theslate 12:59, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

  • has anyone else noticed a spelling mistake in the press release? i'll reveal it in a few mins if no1 has it.
This ep looks fantastic I must say --Nickb123 (Talk) 13:05, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

I thought for sure Jack Bender would be directing this episode. He always directs the big ones. And UNCLE RICO IS BEN'S DAD! LOL! Evil-pineapples 14:38, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

Wasn't there a report that Mira Furlan was going to be in the last four episodes of the season? She is conspicuously absent from this press release. Tehr 10:10, 25 April 2007 (PDT)

She's definitely in "The Brig" as she is shown in promotional photos released for the episode --Nickb123 (Talk) 10:13, 25 April 2007 (PDT)

Percy Wetmore on the island!!!

  • How coincidental that two of the former others/DHARMA-workers have acted in adaptations of Stephen King novels. This may be a clue as to where Ben's dislike of "Carrie"/knowledge to critique King from. It'd definitly be funny to see them parallel the characters that they've starred as...--MightyRearranger 12:05, 25 April 2007 (PDT)
    • Not that big a coincidence. About on the order of the fact that Terry Quinn used to play a recurring character on JAG, a series with a lot of airplane crashes. And can you imagine somebody who takes himself as seriously as Ben liking Stephen King? Zicsoft 19:33, 28 April 2007 (PDT)

The Movie versus the Book

I seem to recall that the line "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" was in the movie version of The Wizard of Oz, but not the book version. When the time comes to unlock the article, somebody should clear that up.

In any case, if this episode really is a parallel to that famous movie scene, everyone should be looking forward to it with great interest.

By the way, I have no connection with the Hanso Foundation. Really, I don't!

Zicsoft 19:30, 28 April 2007 (PDT)

Well, the movie was called The Wizard of Oz but the Frank L Baum book was The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, so hopefully the distinction is already clear.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  02:07, 4 May 2007 (PDT)

Possible Omissons

I'd say it's resonable to believe that there have been certain people (Jacob etc.) left out of the guest cast list, to hide some fairly big secrets. (Possible spoiler coming, sorry) Marvin Candle has been said to be in this episode also, and with no mention of him this only makes this seem more likely! --Bobi (talk) (contribs) 12:32, 1 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Francois Chau confirmed in a recent interview that he is indeed in this episode and he's been uncredited before to add to the mystery of his character.
  • Plus there certainly seems to be a "flash" of him in the trailer for 3.20 --User:Sixtyten 21:50, 3 May 2007 (BST)

Ben : Work Man

Here's a great photo of Sterling Beaumont and Michael Emerson (presumably) on-set.

Michael Emerson is in costume, (also presumably) for this episode, and it (looks like it) says "Ben Work Man" on his tan jumpsuit!

It's good to know that Ben probably had to go for beer-runs in the VW van too.

Image:Michael_Emerson_and_Sterling_Beaumont.jpg

Frankie Viturello 11:12, 3 May 2007 (PDT)

  • OT but: kind of weird to see 'Ben' smiling. :D --TomB


Also note: there was a 1 frame flash (in negative image) of the "Roger Work Man" tag from Roger's jumpsuit in the 3.20 trailer.

This leads to some interesting paradoxes though:

Roger, the Work Man, was a member of Dharma. Dharma was founded by the DeGroots in 1970.. I'm not clear on when it was actually funded and work on the island began.

But even placing the start of the Initiative at 1970, Ben should only be 34 years old. However, he certainly appears to be in his mid-40's.

Additionally, how could he have been born on the island, if nobody can get pregnant there?

If the Iniative ended in 1987, Ben (Work Man) should only appear to be 17 or so.. yet in the promo picture, he appears to be much older. 

  --Gare ny 06:36, 4 May 2007 (PDT)
It's possible that this is also related to the fast on-island aging of Walt, as hinted at by the producers in the official podcast. --Bobi (talk) (contribs) 00:01, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
  • Hasn't the return of the tail-section kids kind of debunked any "fast-aging" theories? They don't look any older than they should.Frankie Viturello 17:43, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
  • While we have information regarding the start of the inception of the Dharma Initiative on the island ... where did we get Ben's birthdte / current age to reference everything you just mentioned? One simple answer could be that Ben (and his parents) were in fact on the island LONG before the Dharma initiative arrived in the 70's. His distain for them would be evidence that he was not an original member/adopter of their philosophies ... but maybe his parents were "conned / manipulated" into allowing them to arrive / build on the island, and subsequently they suffered in some form (maybe died) causing Ben's reason to rally a group to become "hostiles" against the initiative. Frankie Viturello 11:41, 4 May 2007 (PDT)
I don't see why Ben would have to be 17 years old if the Initiative ended in 1987. If he was truly born on the Island and is truly one of the Others since birth then he could've been there for a long time before that. Remember, the Others themeselves have been there for a long time, regardless of whether or not Ben was born to them or to someone else. --Sauron18 20:54, 6 May 2007 (PDT)

Well, I was speaking in the context of Ben being 17 as it relates to the wearing of the Ben Work Man jumper. He's born on the island, and the Dharma initiative didn't begin until 1970, and it ended in 1987.. so it seems that for him to be an active, jumper-wearing member of Dharma, he'd have done it in the first 17 years of his life.

However, there's no reason that one couldn't wear a Ben Work Man jumper at any point in one's life, so yes, I guess it's a straw dog.

Ultimately, the big mystery (and one which it appears will be answered in 3.20) is the backstory of Dharma, of Roger and Ben's role in it, and of how/why the "Others" were considered eventually to be "hostiles".

Speaking of which... in the three years that Desmond lived in the hatch with Kelvin, never once did Des ask Kelvin to expound a bit on the whole "hostiles" thing? Weird. Maybe fodder for another flashback. --Gare ny 07:12, 7 May 2007 (PDT)

Wow, crazy, looks like Ben WAS on THE last "beer" or any "run" for that matter that Roger and the VW Van went on!Frankie Viturello 23:31, 9 May 2007 (PDT)

Speaking of Richard Alpert apparently not aging much form the time that he saw Young Ben, until the "present time".... Could it be that Ben himself ages very quickly? Something that might back up this theory is that Ben was born 2 months prematurely. Bird1234 13:11, 10 May 2007 (PDT)

Mysterious Image

Check out this image I found in the promotional video for this episode.


Weird huh?

-Foxo103 8:59, 3 May 2007

Is that Carrie Preston? Therefore it being a shot of Ben's Mum. --Sixtyten 02:57, 5 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Yes, I believe it was confirmed to be her at DarkUFO's blog. This is likely to be related to a scene which is described by the casting call as "[Roger] finds himself caught up in a mysterious situation beyond his imaginings; and the actor must not be claustrophobic."--Stan 09:30, 5 May 2007 (PDT)
    • Talking about the casting call. Am I the only one who's thinking about a relation between the "claustrophobic thing" and the polar bear cave seen in "Further Instructions"? --Andreapasotti 23:28, 8 May 2007
    • They probably just wanted someone who didn't mind being in an old VW minibus for hours with a film crew and Michael Emerson JoelVanAtta 21:30, 9 May 2007 (PDT)

another strange image

if you watch the promo in slow motion, you'll see the "white woman" (probably carrie preston, or juliette niece), another barrack in the jungle, Lock's surprised face........ and a little head (probably made of wood or stone)! What does it mean? maybe it's something like the pig head in the "lord of the flies"???

I'm guessing it's a doll, probably belonging to young Ben or Annie --Theslate 09:23, 5 May 2007 (PDT)

Just to speculate along with everyone else about this guy... it could be Jacob!!! Highly unlikely though. --Bobi (talk) (contribs) 01:12, 7 May 2007 (PDT)

In my opinion this is one of young's Ben toys. Something like "Hey John, this is (the abandoned house seen in the trailer) where I used to live before Dharma arrived. And this was one of my toys". ...Can I go on? "Than Dharma arrived, with a lot of promises. But all they were able to do was to kill our people, and my only love, Annie (maybe in something called "the incident"). And, also, a terrible truth was revealed: they gave us something like a poison, because they didn't want us on "their" Island, and now we can't have babies. So there was a "purge", and we killed all Dharma workers and scientists (maybe under Jacob's orders). But the outside world thinks that everything is ok". ...Ok, ok, it's terrible. But nothing could be worst than knowing that Him, Jacob, is a doll!!! :) --Andreapasotti 23:40, 8 May 2007 (Italy)

Who is this guy?

It's taken from the 3x20 trailer.

File:3x20man.JPG

Write your comments here!! --Andreapasotti 17:41, 5 May 2007 (Italy)

Could this be the mysterious Jacob?--Phil (talk) 08:44, 5 May 2007 (PDT)

He kinda looks like Richard Alpert, only with long hair and mental --Marcusjh 08:51, 5 May 2007 (PDT)

  • He really does look like a slightly deranged Alpert to me too. Blackannis 09:41, 5 May 2007 (PDT)
  • I agree, almost certainly Alpert.--Sixtyten 06:20, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
  • It's clearly Nestor Carbonell. Frankie Viturello 17:41, 6 May 2007 (PDT)

The only other credited actor he somewhat resembles(besides Alpert) is Doug Hutchison, playing the role of "Horace." Also may be Jacob or Gerald DeGroot.--Theslate 09:27, 5 May 2007 (PDT)

Uhm... Doug Hutchinson is 47 year old, and this "mysterious" man looks younger. Also: Jacob revealed in a trailer?! --Andreapasotti 18:50, 5 May 2007 (Italy)

I also severely doubt it is Hutchison, just grasping at straws.--Theslate 14:25, 5 May 2007 (PDT)

I'm also voting for Alpert. When I saw the preview for the first time, I remember thinking to myself "Why is Richard's hair so long?". Possibly back when he was part of those free-wheeling, long-haired, fun-loving Dharma's! --Gare ny 07:14, 7 May 2007 (PDT)

The Man Behind The Curtain

It's gonna be a good one!

I can't wait for this episode--Phil (talk) 09:31, 7 May 2007 (PDT)

New Dharma Logo?

I was looking at the video and noticed this. Take a look at the symbol on Marvin Candle's jumpsuit. Is this a new logo?--Phil (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2007 (PDT)

  • It kinda looks like the top of the Swan logo.--Presariocompaq 20:36, 9 May 2007 (PDT)
  • I noticed it, too. But in my opinion is the old Swan logo. ...So he is Marvin Candle, and not Mark Wickmund... :) --Andreapasotti 22:18, 7 May 2007 (Italy)

Image:Candlescreenshot.jpg

Families

As we can see in the guest starring list for this episode, Ben's family is listed as a little "group": Sterling Beaumon (as Young Ben), Jon Gries (as Roger Linus) and Carrie Preston (as Emily). After these we can see three other characters, with a man, a woman and a little girl (Doug Hutchison, Samantha Mathis and Madeline Carroll). Is this another family? Was Annie a young Ben's friend? Or maybe, as written by DarkUfo ("Ben's father flags down a couple driving a Karmon Ghia for help") this is the family that helps the Linus. --Andreapasotti 23:04, 8 May 2007 (Italy)

Retrieved from "http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:The_Man_Behind_the_Curtain/Archive_1"