Please make sure to sign all comments on Talk pages. There are some unsigned comments on this Talk page due to being moved from Theory page in accordance with LP:TP. Please do not get confused and forget to sign your comments because others are unsigned. Also, if you have a theory about Jacob from The Incident episode, post it at Jacob/Theories, on The Incident, Parts 1 & 2/Theories as it will be moved there anyways in accordance with LP:TP.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  17:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Contents 1 Theory page cleanup 2 Two Important Theories 3 Esau 4 John Locke 5 New Page: The Loophole 6 "Jacob's Enemy" killed Jacob, not Ben 7 Smokey's Side? 8 Setting up for the future 9 Can Hurley really speak to the dead? 10 Origin 11 Jacob, his Nemesis, and the compass 12 Time paradox: Did Ajira flight 316 go back in time from 2008 to 2007? 13 Jacob is Aaron Theory (Discussion of, pretty much debunked) 14 Juliet's Behavior/Survival 15 To whom does the temple belong? 16 Was Jacob, Jacob? 17 Jacob Asks Ilana For Help 18 "Esau" is there when you look for him. 19 Moved from Theory page 19.1 Allegiances 19.2 Locke" asks Richard where Jacob is 19.3 The Cabin 19.4 The GOOD guys 19.5 As related to the influence of "The Stand" (or, The Bible) 19.6 The Four-Toed Statue 19.7 The Loom 19.8 Will Richard die? 19.9 Juliet and the bomb 19.10 The black LOST on white background 19.11 Do the Losties survive? 19.12 Protecting Jacob 19.13 Why Jacob never met with Ben 19.14 Bernard & Rose 19.15 Not Actually A Bomb 19.16 Jacob Theories 19.17 WHH 20 Sun in the Present 21 Notes concerning theories about the bomb

Theory page cleanup Edit

Someone needs to get on the theories page and clean it up. Too much discussion, and far too many are completely ignoring the basic protocols. Its a mess to read.123go 22:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)123go

• Working on it! AlinaMarie 18:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
• Everyone has the ability to clean up the theory page. It is not set for just a few editors to do this. If you are unsure of how to start, please read LP:TP and use it as a guide.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  15:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Two Important TheoriesEdit

I have two theories, looking at both sides of the outcome of the bomb, if it did, or did not infact explode down in the hole being drilled at the swan site.

• My first theory is that the jughead bomb does infact go off and blow up the site where the swan is, and restores everyones future.

This is what alot of people accept.

• My second theory is that, be bomb goes off, but somehow only discharges the magnetic energy, somehow the magnetic field absorbs the explosion and doesnt make a crater, afterwards the magnetic field is at a normal level, and Juilet may even get rescued if she is not too far gone, DHARMA find out that the magnetic field increases every 108 mins, and they realise that they can re trigger the nuclear device to neturalise the magnetic field, but they encase it in concrete.

I personally doubt that happens, but there is a chance something like that does, if the explosion doesnt correct the future. In season 2 it also appears that those walls were sealed off after the station was built as in season 2 you can see where some molten rock or concrete had run out where the walls were made.-- Nzoomed  talk  contributions  23:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Esau Edit

Any evidence/hints/examples/etc. to back that up? Is it just a guess? I'm just confused about the theory proposed, and where the idea came from. Ketamonkey 03:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

it comes from the bible, dont recall the story somthing about two twins fighting for power. Omggivemaafningusername 04:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

In the Bible, Esau was the brother of Yakob(Jacob). Esau was the firstborn, with Jacob coming second, holding on to Esau's heel. Because Esau was firstborn, he was entitled to inherit the wealth of their father Avram (Abraham). However, Jacob tricked Esau into selling his birthright in exchange for a bowl of lentils (some scholars suggest Esau may have been in danger of starvation at the time, and this may have been an exceptionally dirty thing to do). This created strife in the future between the peoples of Israel (Jacob's descendants) and the people of Edom (Esau's descendants). If you wanna read the original story, most of it is in Genesis 25 and 26. TDiNardo 12:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

We did get a clue in Season 2, "The Long Con" where Hurley is reading the "Bad Twin" manuscript he found in the luggage. That semi-canon novel is the story of two twins, Clifford and Alexander Widmore. Clifford is the "good" twin and "Alexander or Zander", the bad one. The book also mentions Jacob and Esau strengthening Esau as a reasonable theoretical name. Interestingly, the bad twin turns out to be good in the end. --Richrag 16:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

My questions (which I will refrain from making a Theories topic in hopes that it can be discussed here):

If Esau is apparently dead and having to exist as the Smoke Monster and Locke's ghost, what happened to him? And, by that token, what is Jacob's story: is he actually living, and if so, how is he able to leave the island at will with impeccable timing, make things happen "you brought it (the ship) here" My theory is that Jacob is still as supernatural as we have always assumed, and that killing his "body" just makes him like Esau has been while trying to find a way to kill him.

My other question: What happened to make Esau the way he is (or isn't)? And does this tie into the reason for Jacob not being in his Cabin anymore?--Petezilla 19:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyone thinks else thinks that theres a possibility that Abaddon maybe was the nemesis all along? Whats make me think that is the fact that Abaddon was the one who made Locke go to Australia in the first place and he says that John will "owe him one". I know its a long shot but i have always felt that Abaddon maybe was more important than we thought. --IvALBe 18:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the cabin, Jacob and Esau, in Obadiah 1:18 it says "And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau;" Certainly the "house of Jacob" was torched by Ilana and company. Since they happened to have Molotov cocktails handy it would seem they had plans to burn something. Richrag 01:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

John Locke Edit

John Locke it turns out was never 'special' at all. He was getting played just like he was during his various flashbacks. Interestingly his sense of faith in the island turned out to be what was important because Jack was ultimately convinced about the island.

• Actually, I think Locke's specialness has been increased. This season has been eroding Locke's specialness by suggesting that he was not chosen by a higher power - he chose himself. Richard accepted Locke as leader in the 2000's because Locke told Richard in the 1950's that he was going to be leader because Richard told him so in the 2000's.... The Choosing was self-generating (like the compass); it didn't stem from any real specialness. But now we see Jacob actually laying hands on Locke after his fall and partially healing him. So Locke really was singled out by Jacob for some purpose.

EdwardLost 20:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• I think John Locke was special. From the very beginning of the series he had a connection with the island that no one else had. Also, his faith in the island is key to make Jack believe in destiny, and this is key too to all the events we have seen recently (and probably to what's coming.) Also, one may even speculate, that Esau could not take the body of just anyone: maybe he needed the body/shape/person of someone with a connection to the island? Otherwise, he could have come in any other shape. Many other bodies are in the island, isn't that true? Also, there may be a strong connection between Esau and Locke. This is highly speculative: but let's suppose that Jacob's Nemesis is indeed called Esau (as many are already assuming). Esau and Jacob were brothers, they were the twin sons of Isaac and Rebbeca. On the Bible it says that Esau is more of a hunting person, while Jacob is more of a hardworking person and dweller. This would coincide with Jacob and his Nemesis. Jacob lives in a statue and works on a tapestry. For food he fishes. Esau may be more or a hunter, explorer and may stay in the jungle. John Locke was never seen settling down, he was always on the move. We never saw his tent, for instance. And he used to hunt. So this would be a connection between Esau and John Locke. Also, we can further speculate that containing Esau in a cabin was the worse thing you could do to him, if he really is more of a explorer. So maybe John Locke was the only person that Esau could take over/impersonate. OK, lost of speculation here, but it does make sense.--Salvora 12:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
• When Jacob tells Locke that he is sorry it happened to him, is he talking about the fall or about being selected for the task to follow?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Terry O'Quin said, however, in a recent interview that he though it was a shame that his character had turned out to be a "pawn." He also said (SPOILER REMOVED). I have a feeling that Locke will turn out to be a villain in "the War"--Petezilla 19:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

New Page: The Loophole Edit

A new page needs to be created as The Loophole. Once it is revealed, it will need to be explained. That would also be a better place for a discussion of Loophole/Theories. Highspeed 16:17, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

• Done. {{main|Loophole|Loophole/Theories}}--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 01:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
• Page was renamed.

Main articles: Jacob's nemesis and Jacob's nemesis/Theories

--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 15:59, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

"Jacob's Enemy" killed Jacob, not Ben Edit

Though it was Ben who stabbed Jacob, Jacob was still alive when Locke/The Enemy kicked him into the fire. So what was the point of having to find a loophole?--BrouhaJoe 01:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)BrouhaJoe

• That is an excellent point that I think a lot of us are overlooking. What about Ben stabbing Jacob gave not-Locke the ability to finish him off? Good notice. -Amandakay1 16:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
• Granted, you've got them on a technicallity, but I think it's safe to assume that it was the multiple stab wounds that killed Jacob, and not fire.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  15:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Smokey's Side? Edit

The Smokey incident poses a big problem. Is Smokey a part of, a tool of, or aligned with either Jacob or Esau? Is it an independent agent? FLocke's insisting that he and Ben see Smokey suggests that he was expecting Smokey to order Ben to obey him. This implies that Esau controls or is allied with Smokey. But why then didn't Smokey come when called? And why did FLocke seem genuinely surprised when Ben related his instructions? One possibility is that Smokey is not allied with Esau but was fooled by his FLocke disguise; Smokey supports Locke's leadership but did now know that Ben was following the wrong Locke. EdwardLost 20:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• I really think that smokey and esau are the same person/entity. if you think back, when ben summoned smokey, it didnt come because flocke was standing right there. and in the temple, flocke had to pretend like he was going away to find a rope to get ben out of the hole he fell into. then smokey shows up in front of ben, and when it is finished, flocke appears again at the top of the hole. i also think that flocke, being a master of deception, acted with a believable amount of surprise when ben said he would follow him no matter what, but i dont think it was genuine (he wants ben to think he is the real locke).

Setting up for the future Edit

• The guitar that Jacob gives hurley is the one Charlie finds when flight 815 first crashes on the island because hurley repears in water, that looks like the place charlie finds the guitar
  • Hmm, wouldn't Charlie recognize it as not being his? Or is this another "compass?"
    • Does charlie ever say its his guitar once he has found it, or is he refering to his 'current' posession of it
• Rose and Bernard are the Adam and Eve bodies found at the same time. Two bodies found in a cave. The others / Dharma

would have buried their own/eachothers --RaidonTheWanderer 11:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• I think Sun finding Charlies ring has something to do with the reason the guitar being brought to the Island.

--IvALBe 19:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Can Hurley really speak to the dead? Edit

• In light of the new evidence we have a character who can assume other identities, why do we

still have people saying Hurley can absolutely speak to the dead? I don't think there is enough evidence to say he does not. But it's hard to say anything definitive when one considers the finale.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by ? (talk • contribs) .

• At a minimum, Hurley thinks he can speak to the dead.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 23:05, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Origin Edit

Egyptian pantheon and Greek writing: Does this suggest that the origin of Jacob, Richard, et. al. is Ptolemaic Egypt?

Jacob, his Nemesis, and the compass Edit

A possible theory to where this show is heading can be seen by watching the opening scene of the episode. In the opening scene, Jacob and his nemesis seem to be having an age-old discussion that's been discussed many times before: "It always ends the same", where Jacob says that "it only ends once" anything everything leading up to that moment being "progress". One thing noted as well that I haven't seen discussed elsewhere is that these two men are speaking with modern American accents, which I found strange for "some time during the 1800s". Could be just one of those "errors", but I think there was intent to this. The Official_Lost_Podcast/May_11,_2009 discussed the importance of the compass that Locke and Richard pass back and forth to each other, and that there could be a deeper meaning to this eternal loop. Could it be that Jacob and his nemesis are not from the past, but sent back from the future, stuck in an eternal loop and working to set in motion the things that are about to happen, but with different "sacred" opinions for how the plan is to be carried out? Did killing Jacob have something to do with perhaps creating a loophole?--Newbodimus 19:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Time paradox: Did Ajira flight 316 go back in time from 2008 to 2007? Edit

• According to Lostpedia, the Ajira flight departed in January 2008. Please see this link: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ajira_Flight_316
  • Have any of the dates been confirmed? The Ajira passengers never time travelled.
  • According to the link mentioned above, Ben, Sun, Ilana (etc) time travelled from January 2008 back to 2007.
    • This creates a time paradox. It means that Jacob visited Hurley after he arrived on the island!
      • 1)Lostpedia contents are submitted by fans, and is not a Lost official site. So information in this site can contain mistakes. 2) I don't remember any actual reference in the show that Ajira 316 takes off in 2008. 3) The Oceanic Six did get back on January 2005. Widmore tells Locke it's been 3 years since the Oceanic Six came back, shortly before Ajira 316 takes off. And then, when Locke comes back to the others on the island, Richard tells Locke the same thing, that it's been 3 years. The show had captions stating that 1977 and the on-island Ajira 316 are 30 years apart, making it 2007. It could be that a time goof was made, same as with Charlotte's age. Another possibility is that it doesn't have to be exactly 3 years, since they left the island. It could be late 2007 for all we know. So until proven otherwise and with specific reference, aside from Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid, everyone else didn't time travel.
      • Ben and the other Ajira passengers did travel back in time--- Ben, Richard, and Locke(or a Locke doppelganger) saw 'past Locke' after he was shot by Ethan but before he turned the frozen donkey wheel. Of course, this 'past Locke' could have been the one to travel to the 'future' for a minute, that 'future' being the present that we witnessed with Ajira Ben, Locke and Richard...
        • None of this makes any difference because when you leave the island you move forward in time to the off island present (time is passing off island and on) when you come back you rejoin the islands point in time in the past meaning. Potentially meaning that Jacob could leave the island in 2005 to go see someone off island visit them in 2008 than return to the island in 2005 and still have plenty of time to await his death. Remember only like 60 days had passed when the others captured Jack, Kate, and Sawyer thanks to Michael, but Ben was able to show him information on things that shouldn't have happened yet off island. This is also why Walt aged so fast. Time is displaced and passes slower on the island.
        • What did Ben show Jack that hadn't happened yet? He showed him the World Series (which is in October), which had happened. Additionally, when Sayid and Desmond went to the Freighter, they realized it was almost Christmas (roughly 90 days since the crash). This was the exact amount of time they had spent on-island. Walt "aged" so fast because Malcolm David Kelley is a growing boy, that's all.
  • Also his visit to Ilana's past, presumably, is from a time after his 'death' as he gives her the info she needs ie. that Locke isn't Locke and to go to the statue etc.
• The Ajira Flight Was in 2007, the scene from "Through The Looking Glass Part 2" where Jack said we have to go back was mere days before they get the plan rolling to go back to the island.we know that to be April 2007 so Ajira took off in 2007.
  • We do not know that at all. According to this link (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Season_4), John Locke was killed by Ben in "late 2007, early 2008", therefore the Flight 316 must have left in late 2007 at the earliest.
• I think that even if it did take off in 2008 and land in 07, if we look at the fact that there is alot of evidence pointing toward time passing differntly on the island, it could very well be that he saw Hurley in 2008 but it was still 2007 on island, so he still was able to return to the island and die.

It was stated in Lost: The Story of the Oceanic 6 that 316 took off in 2008 and landed in 2007 Thedarxide 22:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Chelseamorning 03:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)Chelseamorning, talk moved from theories page to discussion page, 21 May 2009.

Jacob is Aaron Theory (Discussion of, pretty much debunked)Edit

• Re-written and moved back to theories by the original author.
  • Quite frankly a theory about “Who Jacob is.” cannot be “debunked” until we actually have a better theory (supported by evidence) or an origin story for Jacob as an original character. Furthermore this is not a “discussion” it is indeed a theory as we do not have an origin story for Jacob. The “arguments” against the theory may be compelling to the person who wrote them but that doesn’t mean that any of your arguments are proven and as a consequence do not discredit the theory. If you want to clean up the theory page you should start with things thart aren’t theory but truly are discussion like whether someone said Illana said Ricardo or Ricardos whether or not that is latin or Spanish, because that is a disputation of the factuality of a statement not a theory. If you are an admin and you still believe that this is an inappropriate theory please email me personally. If this was moved by the person who made counter arguments to the theory please explain which of your awesome arguments totally debunks this theory.

Juliet's Behavior/Survival Edit

• Jacob may have somehow been involved, both in her change of mind regarding leaving the island, and later detonating the bomb, and in her living long enough to explode the device.
  • Jacob has already shown that he can bring people back from catastrophic injuries, or possibly even death (John Locke revived after falling 8 stories). Juliet should have almost certainly died on impact, judging by how far/fast she fell down the drill shaft.
    • Could Jacob have revived Juliet by touch, as he had Locke earlier in the episode, to detonate the bomb, after she had fallen to the bottom of the drill shaft and likely died...
    • Jacob was also heard to have been 'miraculous' when we found out he cured Rachel of cancer.
    • I definitely think that Jacob brought John Locke back to life after he fell out of the building. John's gasped for air after Jacob touched him. Perhaps this is an allusion to Jacob being Christ-like. Maybe he will be resurrected in three days? (Or he could have if he hadn't of been burned).
    • Jacob to this point has only been seen acting as an actual person. walking up and talking to people. She is at the bottom of a hole, and he is no where to be seen when she awakes at the bottom. I do agree it to be asinine that she lived through that without some spectacular help of some sort.
• Juliet was marked under Ben's reign, it was not done under Jacob's bidding, as Ben had never really done work through Jacob. She was redeemed by detonated the bomb.
  • Juliet's mind changing about whether or not she feels Jack's course of action is the right one, is very uncharacteristic of her. Earlier in the episode, Jacob says something to Jack about "needing a little push", which may be a double entendre (Jacob seems to affect "fate" via small influences, just judging by his interaction with some of the other Losties). Perhaps Jacob gave her a little push in some way, while Sawyer and Jack were brawling.
    • Another way to look at Jacob's double entendre is simpler: it was merely in reference to the operation incident; Jack needed his father's 'little push' in the operating room to get make things right.
      • Certainly that's an obvious and valid interpretation. I just found it interesting that Jacob seems to be doing seemingly innocuous things ("little pushes") like asking Sayid for directions, but they end up by "coincidence" to make a big difference.
        • Jack always needs a little push to do anything, the surgery, open John's letter, be convinced to go back to the island, among other things. This is because he doesn't have faith.
• Juliet's flashback with her family did not seem dated enough. The house and clothes looked fairly modern.
  • It may also be worth noting that Juliet's flashback was the only one without Jacob appearing in it.
    • May I also add that Juliet was the only one NOT touched by Jacob? Think about it: Jacob touched all of those who were on the crash, but not Juliet. And she was brought to the island on BEN's request, not Jacob's.
      • But how do we know Jacob didn't tell Ben to recruit Juliet? Richard actually did the recruiting, and we have seen Richard has problems going against Jacob's orders. When Richard recruited Juliet we saw no trepidation or hesitation from him (in fact they went to significant trouble for her by having her ex-husband hit by the bus), which leads me to think that Jacob condoned if not ordered Juliet's presence on-island.
        • This was done to ensure that she would set off the bomb, returning the O6 to the present. Jacob made sure of this.
• Maybe the bomb didn't actually go off? The white color that was emitted is similar to the explosion after Desmond turned the key in the hatch. If the bomb had actually gone off would it have been the same color? Or would it be all black?
  • I'm wondering if there might be a direct parallel between Desmond turning the key and Juliet hitting the bomb. What if the fail safe Desmond used actually involved the detonation of a bomb to counter the release of electromagnetic energy? After the original Incident, everyone has survived and someone (Chang?) deduces that the bomb somehow countered the energy release, thus leading the Dharma Initiative to obtain another bomb and devise the fail safe Desmond eventually uses. Much as Locke, Ecko and Desmond survived the modern day Incident, we'll see Jack, Kate, etc. walk away from the original Incident intact (perhaps restored to their original time)...and this also implies that Juliet, just as Desmond did, could have survived as well. Somewhat changed...
    • The idea of a time loop seems to have been hinted at numerous times- its possible that the same events keep recurring (a la The Matrix). It seems like detonating the bomb changed things, however. Perhaps every other time this happened the bomb didn't detonate but Juliet's presence/change of heart (humans are variables) caused things to be different this time around. If this is true, the idea of the Jughead as the failsafe (provided that at the other points in the time loop, it didn't go off) makes sense.
• Juliet's behavior changed because she is pregnant with Sawyer/Lafleur's baby. She knows that if things were to stay the same she would die so the only way for her to survive would be to return back to the way things were before when she was with the Others as miserable as she apparently was. In the scene where Juliet and the rest reunite with Rose and Bernard, after he offers her tea she declines and turns away slowly gently rubbing her stomach in the manner a pregnant woman would.
  • Agree -- and the fact that Bernard offered her tea did seem strange.
  • I also noticed her holding her hand to her stomach and briefly considered pregnancy, but I think it was more a gesture of feeling sick to her stomach, unsettled, as she realizes that she and James are not meant to stay together.
• Juliet changed her mind/behavior on the sub because she is re-enacting her parents' divorce. When Rose and Bernard offer her tea, it represents a committed life together, which is what she and Sawyer might have had, so she hesitates before departing.
• Juliet will become a sort of "New Desmond" - like Desmond turning the failsafe key, Juliet detonating the bomb near all that electromagnetic energy will make her a new variable
  • If you watched the post-white screen, an eye is seen opening just like Desmond post-failsafe key. It kind of looked like Juliet's
    • Could anyone point me to a freeze frame of this? I've inspected the (UK) program and I can't see it!
      • That's because it isn't there. I watched it frame-by-frame.
        • Yes it is. Check the pages here for a shot. It appears to be Jack's eye.
• Both Juliet and Kate agree to go along with Jack because they believe Miles in that what Jack is doing is the incident and therefore get to still be with their loves. Kate didn't want it because she wanted to be with Jack, and Juliet with Sawyer. If this is indeed the incident, they believe nothing will change. Jacob touched all but Juliet, the one who keeps it the same.
• I think Juliet is alive. She survived the blast and was transported in time with the other losties including Bernard, Rose and Vincient. When Juliet is asked by Bernard if she wants to have some tea she responds,"Another time." This is a possible forshadow that Juliet and Bernard will meet in another time period.
• Juliet will wake up naked in the jungle ala Desmond
• Juliet was dead already and Jacob took over her body to detonate the bomb. I think Jacob and "Esau" can take over the dead if they are not buried with ceremony. The overall Egyptian theme supports this as they took great care to perform burial rituals to prevent the dead from being risen.
  • Could be wrong here, but I thought the Egyptian burial rites were to assure the body survives to be resurrected in the afterlife, not to prevent armies of zombies from being raised.

• I don't know if I'm the only person thinking about this but noone has addressed the issue of Juliet's ultimate sacrifice. Her using complete free will in sacrificing her life to essentially "save" all the remaining losties could either be "the loophole" or very possibly a form of a counter-loop hole Created by Jacob.
  • If she believes that detonating the hydrogen bomb will work, then she believes that it will save her as well... not kill her. So it isn't really a sacrifice at all: It is Juliet trying to save everyone's lives, including her own.
• I think that it's significant that out of all the flashbacks in 'the incident' only juliet's didn't feature jacob, maybe how jacob had been affecting all the other losties' lives has reduced their free will, but juliet's decision to activate the bomb was hers entirely and so may have serious ramifications for jacob. Dunno if this makes sense.
  • Sorry but I do not agree. Juliet was wrapped up in chains and dragged down the excavation shaft. Secondly, she was laying, most likely dying at the bottom, with a magnetic field pulling everything down on top of her. Aside from the need to switch a horrible, drawn out death to a quick one, if she didn't set off the bomb she would've died in vain. She did it for her own reasons. If she doens't set it off, she dies. If she does, she either dies or something screwy happens with time.
  • I'm not sure how significant it is that of all the Flashback that Juliets was the one that didn't have Jacob in it. She's an other not a lostie. Of all the people he has visited none were on 'his' list. However, I think this raises a point...was it really Jacobs List that Ben was given or the Imposters as we now know that Ben had never seen Jacob.

--Chelseamorning 04:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)Chelseamorning 21 May 2009, moved Juliet behavior/survival from theory page to discussion page. Theories therein summarized for theory page.

To whom does the temple belong?Edit

• The temple belongs to Jacob's Nemesis. Remember he saved Ben in 1977, after he was shot by Sayid. Ben would later be the one to eliminate his enemy,i.e. Jacob.
  • We do not know that Jacob's Nemesis saved Ben in 1977, only that Ben was taken into the temple to be saved.
• If the Smoke Monster is seemingly on the side of Jacob's nemesis, then the Temple belongs to him. Why would it be one of the last 'safe' places for the Others, as stated by Richard and Ben, if they both (or at least Richard) work for Jacob, and the Others are Jacob's people? Perhaps they have all been fooled by Jacob's Nemesis for longer than we have thought? Or is something else going on?
  • To continue this line of thought, perhaps this is why Jacob never wanted anything to do with Ben, because he was healed by this opposing force, and the 'change' that RIchard spoke of was that now Ben was forever tied to this opposing force. Ben does not understand this, because he has no recollection of the healing.
  • Why do we assume that the Nemesis and the Smoke Monster are the same or even related?The opening scene included a red herring (literally, I don't think based on this show's history that anything is as obvious as people seem to think it is...
    • I agree... the opening scene suggests to me that Jacob and his enemy were possibly different factions of the same people, and the temple could easily "belong" to both of them, with the smoke monster being the protection system for their people, and having allegience to neither (i.e. reanimating at the bidding of either)
      • The fish in the beginning of the episode was a Red Snapper, not a herring.
• The temple belongs to Jacob because Locke was unaware of what happened when Ben was in the temple
  • Or was he? We saw Fake Locke show surprise when Ben told him about his judging, but he has been lying all along to maintain his Locke-disguise, so it is entirely possible that Flocke knew exactly what the smoke monster told Ben. In fact, it was probably just another move in this long con that Jacob's adversary has been perpetuating. I think it is entirely possible that there are THREE powers at work here, being Jacob, his unnamed Adversary, and the mostly neutral Smokey. However, it seems that Smokey has decided to work against Jacob, because it is very unlikely with its abilities that it didn't know who Locke was. To me, this means the Temple does not belong to Jacob, but rather to the smoke monster.
    • Agreed that Smokey is neutral, but I don't think it took sides now. It has a programmed mission he follows (to judge people, enforce the rules, etc). If Richard Alpert was totally fooled by fake Locke, is no farfetched to believe Smokey also believed Locke was genuine and that's why demanded Ben to obey him. That's another reason way "Nemesis" needed a loophole, so he could be granted the approval of all the Island's powers to reach Jacob.
  • The temple was built FOR Jacob BY Jakob therefore the temple is only for Jacob
• The temple belongs to both Jacob and his nemesis. The two forces represent the balance between order/chaos, light/dark, yin/yang. The statue holds 2 ankhs, and there are always 2 sides. The temple serves both entities/men. It honors the balance between the forces.
  • That's why the temple is a safe place. Neither side can harm the other at the temple. The temple is sanctuary for both side..
    • The temple is no longer a sanctuary-black killed white, bad killed good...
• Here's something I'm not getting. Why is the temple listed as a Dharma station? Either we have it wrong on here or that the Dharma Intiative built on top of the catacombs whihc the monster stayed in. If not then its definitely Jacob's nemesis'. Why else would the monster told Ben to follow Locke or else face the wrath of it. Smokey wanted Ben to follow Locke so Locke could use Ben to kill Jacob.
  • When Ben tells people to go to the Temple, he has a map that shows it with a Dharma symbol. I think that's the only thing that suggests the Temple has Dharma significance.
• Flocke specifically says "We're not going to your temple. We're going under it". And the room Ben is judged in seems to have no way in or out (except for hole Ben fell through), so I don't think it's part of the temple proper. We haven't seen Jacob's temple yet.
  • the smoke monster came out from under the temple. Richard took Ben into the temple. I do not think Richard took Ben to Smokey. I also do not think Richard knows about Smokey?
• The temple may be a neutral location and can be used by both Otherman and Jacob. Richard used the temple to heal Ben and this was purportedly at the direction of Jacob. However, the smoke monster, who appears to be on Otherman's side resides there. At this time it seems that Otherman and Jacob can both utilize the temple, however, it is unknown if they can actually enter it.
• The temple belongs to Jacobs nemesis, "Locke" leaves Ben down there because he knew the smoke monster would appear telling Ben to do everything "Locke" tells him to do, which is exactly what Jacobs nemesis wants to order to kill Jacob.

• counter evidence: Flocke is surprised to hear Ben must do whatever he asks.

Was Jacob, Jacob?Edit

Since Smokey or Nemesis was portraying Locke, could something else have been standing in for Jacob?

Jacob Asks Ilana For Help Edit

I think Jacob knew that his enemy was going to find that loophole and eventually kill him, and that is what he need Ilana's help with...to find a "candidate" for him to inhabit like his enemy used Locke's persona--Missdavis99 18:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The person who is the "candidate" will be a trusted person who we are already well acquainted with, I'm sure.--Missdavis99 18:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

"Esau" is there when you look for him. Edit

I was thinking about Locke and the events leading up to him leaving the island. He turned the wheel to fix things, but he thought it was the right thing to do because Christian Shepherd told him to do it in Jacob's Cabin. How did Locke find Jacob's Cabin? He had that weird dream about Horace Goodspeed where Horace tells him to find his body. In the dream, Horace chops down the same tree a couple of times. This struck me as odd at the time, but I think it makes more sense now. I don't think that there is a Groundhog Day-like time loop going on here, but I do think that the same story keeps playing out on the island: people show up, bad stuff happens, some die. Jacob alluded to this in his discussion with Esau. If Esau was the one who wanted Locke to leave the island so that he would die, then it makes sense that he was the one that appeared as Horace in Locke's dream. If dream-Horace was Esau, then maybe the dream repeat sequence shows Horace stuck in the same way that Esau is stuck. Assumption 20:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Moved from Theory pageEdit

The following discussions have been moved from the Theory page because they violate Lostpedia's Theory policy, and may contain unsigned edits. Please sign any subsequent edits.

AllegiancesEdit

• Or no one is good nor bad. This isn't a fairy tale where a clear line is drawn between good and bad characters, in Lost everyone has a past too complex to be classified as good/bad. Characters here only seem evil when we're begining to know them: Ben, Widmore, French woman, the others, dharma, Ethan... Esau. The Esau character has acted like a nice guy all the time he's been in Locke's body.
• jacob is trying to prove that through progress, humanity can solve all their own problems and he brings people to the island to do so. thats why hes good. jacobs emeny thinks it will never happen and that bringing people to the island is a mistake. chances arethat if jacob really is dead then his enemy might try and kill everyone else on the island. thats why hes bad.
  • Anyone notice how Jacob's vision is pretty much the same as Dharma's? They both use the island for repeated experiments to find a way for humanity to change their fate of self-destruction.
• Darlton may have given us a hint at the start of The incident, where Jacob wears a white shirt and his nemesis wears a black one. Traditionally, white represents good and black evil.
• Good point. Probably because he seemed so genuinely nice to the the people we saw in his visits and because of how he interacts with Ilana and how she responds to him. But it also might seem that he is the bad one, based on his conversation with Nemesis, where he calls death and destruction "progress." Perhaps, however, neither is solely good or bad (refer to "The Big Country" with Gregory Peck, where the two feuding old men are the cause for all drama and when they are both dead, the drama is over.)
  • • He seems to promise eternal life to some and demand unwavering faith and dedication of others. Some like Ben do not have their calls answered, and unspeakably bad things are happening on his watch. Is it not possible that he is a complacent deity, unworthy of their worship and John Locke (named after an enlightenment philosopher), even though it may not be him, is there to set people free. Possible. Or at least equally possible and with as much textual evidence as the biblical theory everyone seems to be going crazy for.
• It seems too simplistic for the writers to have a "Good" side and a "Bad" side. Up until now, all of the conflicts on the island have always been about not knowing who's good or bad, who's right or wrong. (Dharma vs Others, Ben vs Widmore, Jack vs Locke, Survivors vs Others).
• Undermining our understanding of "good vs bad" is a major reoccurance on the show. For example - Sayid, Iraqi torturer, carrying a nuke in a backpack, is a good guy.
  • Why? He is my idea of a bad guy (killing people for ben, torturing women in the war, detonating explosions on the island). Is it people's opinion that the losties are the good guys? Just because they are the cental characters doesn't mean they are good. It has been repeatedly stated that if anyone is bad it's the losties (most recently by Bernard and Rose), they keep finding reasons to shoot each other.
• Esau wants to kill Jacob, but Jacob doesn't appear to want to kill Esau. Also Esau is the one that wants to break or bend "the rules."
  • Jacob set up the rules. Black shirt guy is Jacob's prisoner, trapped on the island, forced to play by his rules. . This is what makes him want to one day break free, find a loophole, and kill Jacob. It's obvious from the first scene the Jacob is in a position of power. Black shirt seems helpless, and looks for a loophole out of his position of helplessness.

• Lost usually has fairly three-dimension characters. Why does one have to be a 'good guy' and one a 'bad guy'?
  • We should probably remember that Jacob is the one bringing people to the island...most would consider being stranded on an island a bad thing.
• "God loves you as he loved Jacob." Why is it past sense? Why God dont love Jacob anymore? For me this is main indication, that Jacob is the Bad guy banished by God to some hidden place. (also Ben said Locke one somethink like "God doesnt see this place.") It was just not revealed yet.
• For what it's worth, in the May 9th official podcast, Carleton said Jacob is a good guy.

Imagine the island as a huge yin and yang - Jacob as white, Esau as black - but both contain a piece of the other. Neither is entirely good or bad, and both are part of a composite whole that is greater than themselves. This "whole" may be the "island" which is living symbol (or microcosm) of the broader human experience - the struggle of good vs. evil, free will v. fate or predestination.

• Of which Bernard & Rose are the perfect symbols.
• This is the one thing that's occured to me while reading through these. Why assume that Jacob is good and the Nemesis is evil? It looks to me like one is for free will (Or else Jacob would've stopped Ben from all his "evil" acts as leader of the Others), and the other wants to protect the island at all costs, even if it means killing everyone.
• As Frank says in the episode, "in my experience the people that say they are the good guys are usually the bad guys". It could be that this was a hint towards the discovery of Fake Locke - someone that most viewers would have assumed was the real Locke, a good guy (an explanation which I think is most likely). However there is always the possibility that this is a hint towards Jacob really being the bad guy, and Esau the good guy...
• Jacob received God's favor over Esau thru deception (Bible - Book of Genesis)
• It isn't just about Good and Bad, it's more about Law/logic vs. Compassion/faith, neither which is completely good or completely bad. If Smokey is Esau, and Smokey really is a security system, then he is the ultimate seeker of order and would naturally want to "purge" any humans from the Island who do not follow the "Rules" and who fail their judgment. His ultimate foe would be Jacob, considering that it is Jacob bringing all of these corruptible people to the Island. Good vs. Evil is too simplistic, in my mind.
  • Jacob and smokey being enemies would explain why Jacob stays at safe/hidden locations, the sealed statue base and the ash protected cabin.
• How about the 'deterministic vs probabilistic universe' discussion rather than good vs evil? Einstein said "God doesn't play dice" (a much misunderstood quote) when asked about quantum theory. The three elements in Lost (religion, philosophy and science) all intersect at this issue and all three feature figures who are either for determinism or for probabilism. Jacob and his nemesis argue over whether the Black Rock crew will do what is predicted or something different. This bit might be going too far with the theory but it might explain what the loophole is. To prove his nemesis wrong (proving that this is a probabilistic universe) he traps them both in a time loop that the only escape from would be if he was right and that things could turn out differently in different iterations. The nemesis proves Jacob right by killing him in a nice bit of irony.
• Remember when Locke was teaching Walt how to play backgammon? He said there are two players, one light and one dark. This doesn't mean light is good and dark is bad.

Locke" asks Richard where Jacob isEdit

• If Locke is dead in the crate, then WHY would Jacob's Enemy who took on Locke's form ask Richard to show him where Jacob was? If he was really Jacob's enemy then he would know exactly where Jacob was and just ask Ben to go with him to kill Jacob. Anyone else confused on this?--LOST-Frink 03:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Fake Locke acted very surprised when they arrived at the statue. I don't think he knew where Jacob is.
• Because the Nemesis had to pretend that he was Locke, who didn't know where Jacob lived.
  • In addition Jacob's enemy didn't know for sure that Jacob was in the statue and a failure to correctly bring Ben directly to Jacob would dispel any illusion that Locke was "chosen" thus ruining the plan.
    • but when jacobs enemy saids hes going to kill him when he finds a loophole jacob repiles "ill be here when you do". he was right next to the statue when he said this and he was in the statue when his enemy found the loophole.
  • This brings up the question, Do the Others know anything about Esau?
    • Evidence for: Locke kept up his disguise (pretended not to know where Jacob is).
    • Evidence against: Ben has some kind of connection to the Monster. The Shadowies might be getting introduced as a storyline way to inform the Losties about the Jacob-Esau conflict because Ben and Richard don't know about it. Also, it seems like if Richard knew anything about Esau and his shapechanging/imitation ability, the "resurrected" Flocke would be instantly suspicious.
  • Fake Locke had no problems showing other types of initimate knowledge of the Island. Knowing where Jacob is could have been passed off in that vein. This was probably just a conenient way to drag everyone along. The better question is why Fake Locke wants everyone there.
• I think that Fake Locke just wanted the Others to stand guard and kill the Shadowies, although he didn't count on the Shadowies finding the real Locke's body and allying with Richard
• I don't agree that he just did that to keep his cover (such as pretending not to know where Jacob lived), otherwise he wouldn't have led Ben underneath the Temple to be "judged", because Ben could have easily told Richard about it. Because by just having knowledge of the Temple ALONE would raise eyebrows in Otherville, let alone know whats under it. --LOST-Frink 03:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Locke could always say "Jin told me about the vents near the Temple during our time together in This Place Is Death." Before I started figuring out Locke was the Monster, that's how I assumed Real Locke figured out the Temple was the Monster's home base.
  • It's all part of the con. Nemesis (Esau/Adversary/Flocke/whatever) needed Ben to believe in John Locke. Part of Nemesis's manipulation is pretending that the Island is an intelligent entity unto itself, rather than simply a setting for the Jacob/Nemesis conflict. Ben's experience under the Temple compelled him to follow Locke because Locke was supposedly doing the will of the Island, which Ben believes he himself has been serving all along. In fact he has a black-and-white choice, Nemesis or Jacob, but imposing a mythical "Will of the Island" muddied the waters. Locke suggested to the Others that they question Jacob's will, and their going along created the proper psychological atmosphere for Ben to brood about his personal suffering. Plus Locke could only play his "the Island told me" card so many times. Note that to Richard that phrase meant, "Jacob told me", while to Ben it deepened the lie that the Island is something separate and higher than Jacob. It's the Gnostic concept of the creative Demi-Urge being distinct from God. Nemesis is putting "the Island" in place of God and Jacob in place of the Demi-Urge, so that Ben feels that he can betray Jacob without betraying the (fictional) greater good he's really been serving. Selling this lie to Ben is Nemesis's motivation in portraying Locke.
    • It is part of a "long con". Esau forced Richard to lead him to Jacob as both a means to force him to recognize his authority and to give him enough time for Ben to consider the injustice of his position. The fact that Esau had secret knowledge that he claimed came from the Island, combined with his forcing Alpert's hand, both served to reinforce Ben's perceived lesser role as well as his awe of Esau/Locke. Taking all the Others with him put them in place to serve Esau should the need arise, and also directly undercut Richard Alpert's authority since the rank-and-file Others appreciated being included. It also forced Richard to allow both Ben and Fake Locke in to see Jacob because, with the audience there, it put him on the spot.
• The spirit possesing Locke takes the form of a target and gets in this case Locke's memories, knowledge and attidudes but he cannot pass his own (Esau or whoever he is) knowledge, he only passes his evilness. Fake Locke does not know were Jacob is or where to go try to find him. He just knows that he wants to kill Jacob and also that he won't be able to do it himself.
  • He says to Jacob "you have no idea what i had to go thru to get here", implying he did and remembers many things before his taking Locke's appearance.
• Fake Locke was imprisoned in the shack until recently. He had no idea if Jacob still lived in the statue and probably expected Jacob to have moved someplace else (to hide or whatever). He was genuinely surprised to find that he was still there.

The CabinEdit

• Jacob's nemesis was imprisoned in Bernard and Rose's old cabin. Locke's dream where Horace claimed to have built the cabin was not entirely accurate. Locke's subconscious jumbled the information it was given which manifested in his incorrect dream. (Please give reasons as to why Jacob's cabin and the one the Sadler's use is the same. Also, please provide where we can assume "Locke's subconscious jumbled the information" is accurate. Has it happened before.)
• The cabin was once a place in use by Jacob- in the final confrontation scene between Ben, Jacob's nemesis, and Jacob, when we first see Jacob, he is sitting in a rocking chair. The same one that used to be in the cabin. The cabin was under his use at some point. (As seen in the below comment, there were 2 chairs. Please find more evidence to add to this theory.)
  • There is a rocking chair in the cabin when Ilana torches it. They must be two different chairs. (discussion, not theory)
• Maybe to check on Jacob's enemy; they figured something was wrong when they saw the manifestation of Locke but had to be sure before they went to Jacob. (Not to include "maybe". Please reword and add evidence.)
• Back when John Locke originally heard somebody say "Help me" in the cabin, it was Jacob's enemy that we see when they discuss the Black Rock finding the island. He was recruiting John Locke even back then as an apparition. (Please provide examples and evidence.)

The GOOD guysEdit

• No one can for sure say who is good and who is bad. Ben, Ilana's Team, also Widmore I think, said that they are the good guys. So that leaves for sure that some are the bad guys and they are not only one. The difficult in the Lost story is to define the good and the evil. Who is good, why, and what is the purpose of the good side? and the opposite.
  • Ben has said he is one of the good guys, a lot of people say they are the good guys. in the final season figuring out who \is good and who is bad will be probably a central theme.
• This very important the Ben - Widmore connection and exile. Widmore's mercenary mission was also a loophole that losties created. What is his role and which is his side? Widmore also knows that its gona be a war , Ben doesnt seem to know it.
  • The War is between Widmore and Eloise. Widmore is on smokie's side and Eloise is on Jacob's.
• Widmore handled Locke with great care like he knew already that Locke have a great role to play. Maybe Widmore has changed side opposing to Jacob and so is his exile by Ben. So in the afterwards he serving the Jacob's opposing force.
• Both Widmore - Ben - Eloise AND Jacob - Christian want the losties back in the island. So the Jacob contact with the losties doesn't make him good or that he is the only he want them back. Maybe the Bad "Jacob" wants them back also.
• If Jacob is the good then the contacted Losties maybe the chosen ones that will end the endless war once and for all.
• We will may see an episode about the other guy flash back in season 6, contacting The Losties-Dharma-Widmore.
• Jacob is good. His Nemesis is evil. The challenge is in discerning who is following Jacob's will and who has been led astray. Ben thinks he is doing good all along, but he has taken numerous actions outside of what Jacob's will would be had it been properly understood. Note that the defect is in Ben, not Jacob. Ambition and selfishness has got in Ben's way throughout his life. In contrast, Richard has consistently done right, as he has simply done what he was told, without pushing to go outside the parameters he was given. Where he has erred, he has erred honestly.
• I believe that on the side of jacob in this "war" is Alpert, Widmore, and Ilana. On the side of jacob's enemy is eloise, because she told jack that locke's body had to be brought back to the island, as well as the smoke monster, who told ben to listen to locke. Everyone else, including Ben, is just neutral in the war because they do not realize what is going on. Christian appears to be only possessed by jacob's eneny, as Locke was. He is really dead, but the enemy (i'll call him Esau) takes over Shepard's body and tells Locke that he has to die. Now the questions remain, which side is good, which is evil< and why are they fighting?
  • I would also add Ben to the side against Jacob. He went into the temple, where the smoke monster lives. However, he could not kill Jacob because he could not see him. When Ben found out that Locke heard Jacob, he manipulated things and got jacob's enemy to go into Locke's body.
• Jacob is good; "Esau" is bad.
  • The Others and Richard have always been working for Jacob. Richard has spoken to Jacob, but no one else has -- not even Widmore or Eloise. Ilana, Bram and company are on their side as well; we see Jacob giving orders to Ilana and they joined the Others.
  • Ben was always just a pawn for Jacob, and Jacob knew Ben wasn't wholly good. Because of selfish motives he's not good, but he also isn't with "Esau".
  • Widmore is either a) a pawn like Ben in "Esau's" ploy, or b) actively working with "Essau" but isn't the bad guy. He cannot be the good because Bram is against him.
  • Eloise could be anything. We haven't seen why she left the Island, but it probably is simply to raise Daniel there to preserve the timeline, therefore we can't be too sure what side she is on.
    • She could be on Jacob and the Others' side and is doing her part off the Island. This is evidenced by Richard protecting her and seeming to favor her over Widmore in the past.
    • She could be on "Esau's" side and is purposely creating the loophole for him.
    • She could be just a pawn like Ben and doesn't know exactly who is good or bad herself, and is only doing what she believes is good.
  • Locke was a pawn but is now dead. He was never special and the loophole has something to do with him creating the belief that he's special in Richard and becoming the leader of the Others erroneously. This somehow allows "Esau" to use his likeness to kill Jacob.
• Lost doesn't make people so binary as "good" and "bad".
  • Actually "good and bad" people is a recurrent and stressed theme of Lost as much as "Black and White."
    • It seems likely that the main factors ALL consider themselves "good" but working from different assumptions, they come into conflict. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elseware (talk • contribs) .

As related to the influence of "The Stand" (or, The Bible)Edit

As is sometimes forgot, the writers have acknowledged influence from Stephen King's "The Stand" (to the point of saying a copy is always in the writing room). So note some elements from the The Incident that relate to it:

1. It involves a science experiment gone awry. Radzinsky's zealous drilling...Gen. Starkey's "Project Blue" super-flu development.
2. Jacob and "Nemesis", two figures representing opposing forces of good and evil. Mother Abigail and Randall Flagg.
3. Late into "The Stand", Mother Abigail dies, leaving the Boulder Free Zoners leaderless. Jacob dies in "The Incident" apparently leaving The Others and Richard leaderless.
4. Lloyd Henreid, servant of Randall Flagg, shoots Glen Bateman at the behest of Flagg, himself unable to. Ben kills Jacob at the behest of "Nemesis", who cannot do it himself.
5. A small group of the Free Zoners must travel to Vegas "on faith" to stop Flagg (Stu Redmon, Glen Bateman, Larry Underwood, Ralph Brentner). Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid must travel to the Island (as Jack believes) to stop the Incident "on faith".
6. There are infiltrators or attempted infiltrators in Flagg's Vegas...Tom Cullen, Dayna Jurgens, and Judge Ferris. Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, and Jin infiltrate Dharma-ville.
7. One of the infiltrators (Judge Ferris) is killed by a dumb security guard. Sayid is apparently fatally wounded by Roger Linus.
8. Most importantly.....the end of the "Bad Guys" in "The Stand" comes with the detonation of a nuclear weapon.

• Jacob's "Nemesis" is not given a name at any point of the episode. I believe Darlton did this so that we would refer to him as "The Man in Black" or "The Dark Man". These are some of the names that Randall Flagg (The Stand's antagonist)goes by throughout a good deal of King's novels.

The Four-Toed Statue Edit

• The four-toed statue was the Ancient Egyptian goddess, Taweret who was a patron of childbirth and a protector of women and children. She was also believed to guard the path to the underworld. Although it is unknown when this statue was destroyed, its destruction led to the inability for women to give birth on the island. Furthermore, its destruction led to the inability of the dead, like Christian and Claire, to move on and forced them to wander the island. (Please give examples and evidence to support this.)

The LoomEdit

• The loom represents how time is just one lengthy tapestry. When Jacob says something along the lines of, it taking forever and guessing that that is the point, he is really saying that everything that these characters have been through and are going through now has been woven by him. They had to endure suffering, frustration, etc in order to be where they are today.
• Jacob states, "It takes a long time when you make the thread." Meaning that he not only made the cloth in the loom but also made the thread from fur or seed like they did in ancient times. Which would indicate that not only is he weaving the characters into a story/destiny but that he created the characters in the 1st place. I think Jacob as God seems a bit ridiculous, but I do feel that this line is important.

Will Richard die?Edit

• In "Follow the Leader", Richard states that he does not age because of Jacob. Now that Jacob is dead, Richard will either die, or start aging.
  • IF Jacob dies then Richard will start ageing and will eventually die.
  • if thats true then everything that jacob has given to people will be undone. locke wont be able to walk, rose's cancer will return etc
    • Richard not ageing is a gift. It does not depend on Jacob being alive.
  • Also, we know that Richard does not age. But this is not the same as Richard cannot die. Maybe he can die, if someone tries to kill him. Not aging is not the same as not dying.

(All of the above may be true, but without evidence it is speculation and therefore should be on the Talk:Theory page, not the Theory page.)

• Remember the story of the man who had a painting in his attic, and the painting would age for him so he would stay young? Seems like that could be the route the storyline is taking, since the show borrows from literary elements a lot. Also, there was a painting in Jacob's cabin seen when Ilana is going through it.
  • "The Picture of Dorian Gray" by Oscar Wilde. The character of Dorian appears youthful and innocent, never aging, while the picture changes to appear as he would age, and further, the physical representation of all the evil he commits. It is implied that an Egyptian statue is the cause of the transformation.

Juliet and the bomb Edit

Please explain how Juliet will survive the injuries sustained from the fall down the shaft.

• Jacob will somehow cause or allow Juliet to live (although so far Jacob's miraculous healing powers have been exercised only through touch, like when he seemingly revived Locke after his 8-story fall).
• Juliet was marked under Ben's reign, it was not done under Jacob's bidding, as Ben had never really done work through Jacob. She was redeemed by detonated the bomb. This will allow her to live.
• Juliet changes the timeline by detonating the bomb. The idea of a time loop seems to have been hinted at numerous times- its possible that the same events keep recurring. It seems like detonating the bomb changed things, however. Perhaps every other time this happened the bomb didn't detonate but Juliet's presence/change of heart (humans are variables) caused things to be different this time around. If this is true, the idea of the Jughead as the failsafe (provided that at the other points in the time loop, it didn't go off) makes sense. (Please give reasons why "It seems like detonating the bomb changed things.")
• Juliet's behavior changed because she is pregnant with Sawyer/Lafleur's baby. She knows that if things were to stay the same she would die so the only way for her to survive would be to return back to the way things were before when she was with the Others as miserable as she apparently was. In the scene where Juliet and the rest reunite with Rose and Bernard, after he offers her tea she declines and turns away slowly gently rubbing her stomach in the manner a pregnant woman would. (Need more evidence than rubbing her stomach to make a theory. Maybe she was hungry.)
• Juliet will become a sort of "New Desmond" - like Desmond turning the failsafe key, Juliet detonating the bomb near all that electromagnetic energy will make her a new variable---not subject to the exigencies of the normal timeline.
• Juliet is alive. She survived the blast and was transported in time with the other Losties including Bernard, Rose, and Vincent. When Juliet is asked by Bernard if she wants to have some tea she responds, "Another time." This is a possible forshadow that Juliet and Bernard will meet in another time period.
• Juliet died from the fall down the shaft, and Jacob/Jacob's nemesis/the smoke monster (whatever animates the dead on the island) took over her body to detonate the bomb. (Must give evidence.)
• Juliet's act of self-sacrifice in detonating the bomb, through her free will, will save all the remaining Losties. This could either be The Loophole or very possibly a form of a counter-loophole created by Jacob. Because (as far as we know) Jacob has never interacted with Juliet, she could be more capable of this exercise of will. Jacob's interactions with the other Losties significantly influenced their behavior, but he's never touched Juliet.

The black LOST on white background Edit

• would say just to screw with our minds it will be a jump to the time in the Sydney airport before the crash. Perhaps all the survivors will have a recollection of the previous events and even recognize each other when boarding Oceanic flight 815. Believing they have changed the past and prevented the crash they will have a cautious optimism that the flight they are on will land safely in Los Angeles. Of course this not only requires travel through time but also travel in space which does not seem to be a property of the white flashes.
• Just means that "everything has changed". Season 6 will start with a successful flight of 815. season 6 will depict the events leading to everyone again, via course correction, being pulled to the island. (being pulled is a theme?).
• I think they all end up in 2004 right after the crash, but with all there memories of there life on the island intact, and a chance to change things. But I dont think so, as they would struggle to bring back all the dead characters again. (You contridict your own theory.)
• All of the previous white screens have led to physical safety for the Losties, so this one could be the same. It could very well be re-booting them in 2004, but the O6 retain the knowledge of their prior experiences like Desmond re-living his life. (Please give examples of "All of the previous white screens have led to physical safety for the Losties")
• The color inversion means the world is upside down. All hell will break loose. Crazy stuff that's happened on the island will start happening around the world. Perhaps Smokie will start judging humanity at will. Or to reverse the metaphor: now the world is in the snowglobe.
• Maybe has something to do with the way the way the letters always look small against the background. before the survivors didn't know what was going on so they were "small points of white in an island of black". Know that they understand teh island better there are only a few points of black they must get rid of inorder to get home/save the island/save teh world ect.

Do the Losties survive? Edit

• The Losties die in the Incident. Their 1977 selves just grow up to the age they are when the plane crashes and they repeat the same loop. Forever. (If they die, how do they grow up to repeat the time loop?)
• Time travel just messes with everyone's heads... but i don't believe the bomb worked in preventing the incident. Watching this episode, and flashing from 1977 to 2007 makes you think that these events are happening concurrently, but they are not. What happened in 1977, is done with, set in stone, as far as the people in 2007 are concerned. As soon as Jack decides to go along with Daniel's plan, the events have been set in motion. If the plan had indeed worked, then we wouldn't have been watching Ben, Sun, and Locke walking on the beach on their way to Jacob because they never would have been on the island at all. We can also assume it didn't work for similar reasons: in the past three episodes, the O6 and other time traveler's have been doing nothing but warning all the DHARMA people to get off the island because the incident and/or the bomb will kill everyone on the island. Not just the ones close to the detonation, but EVERYONE. But alas, we still have videos of Dr. Chang talking about the incident in previous seasons, we still have mention of Radzinsky being a resident in the Swan and blowing his head off near the end of season 2. And obviously Richard and Eloise survive as well. So perhaps, either the bomb did not prevent the incident... or the bomb didn't really go off. (Nothing to do with whether or not the Losties survive.)
• The bomb didn't go off when Jack dropped it because this would have killed Jack, similarly to how Michael couldn't kill himself off the island. Jack has not served his purpose yet, as we will see. For Juliet however, this WAS her purpose, to blow up the bomb and stop the incident from destroying the island. (What's the difference between it going off when Jack dropped it, and it going off, by Juliet, while he is still at the top of the hole?)
• Richard was either lying about seeing them die or there is another event to account for his statement. Consider that only Jack, Kate and Hurley were in the 1977 recruitment picture. When Jack left Richard at the barracks with the hydrogen bomb core he was with Sayid and nobody else (Sayid was not in the picture because he was still in the jungle). Furthermore, when Sun asks the question to Richard about the people in the picture she is specifically asking about the fate of her husband who is also not in the picture since he was DHARMA recruit in 1974 and not 1977. Richard, even if he was inferring from the explosion, would have no reason to believe that anyone else other than Sayid was with Jack at the time of the explosion or that Jin, Sawyer, Juliet and Miles are even on the island at that time.
• Take note of the sequence of the closing scenes for this episode, when Jack first drops the nuke it doesn't go off when by most accounts it should. This is sort of like when Michael tried to shoot himself but the gun never went off, like wise the nuke was not supposed to go off as this is what the island had dictated... Under the direction of Jacob that is. Now flash forward to 2007 we see Jacobs nemesis kill Jacob via Ben, thus breaking Jacobs hold on the island. NOW we flash back to 1977 again, Juliet hits the nuke and it goes off this time because the time line is no longer under Jacobs control.
  • The killing of Jacob in 2007 allowed the bomb to go off. It's as if the two timeframes are really happening together, this isn't past and present but two parallel timelines. The producers have said many times that time doesn't flow normally on the island and everybody assumes it means that time flows faster or slower but it could be more complex than that. If this is true then the bomb really changed the incident and it's likely that a Swan station won't exist in season 6.

Protecting JacobEdit

• Richard says that only one person can see Jacob at at time. This is to keep his nemesis from killing him. If someone other than the nemesis entered the room Jacob could talk him out of killing him (jacob). But for Jacob to be killed, the Nemesis would need to be present to prod him into killing Jacob. If 2 people enter to talk to Jacob, one would have to be the nemesis.

• Actually it was "only the leader can see Jacob"
• Ben never actually saw Jacob. It could be that Jacob trusts Richard alone, and that's why he keeps him with long life. Richard is the only one who ever sees Jacob, regardless of the current leader, so that his nemesis cannot kill him.
• If Richard would watch for Otherman and take measures to prevent that he can reach him - why wasn't it obvious to him that the "resurrected" Locke is Otherman? Richard would have become suspicious because to him it would be obvious.
  • Richard is not aware of the conflict between Jacob and Otherman, otherwise he would have stopped him.
    • If anyone on the island is aware of Otherman it would be Richard who has served as an "advisor" for a "very long" time. It would make no sense that Richard would be unaware of Otherman.
      • The nature of Jacob's conflict with his Enemy is such that physical protection would either prove his enemy right, somehow defeat the purpose of their disagreement, or be totally useless. If Jacob wanted to have his people stop his Enemy, he would probably live somewhere more secure than the base of the statue, and have the Others guarding him at all times, or at least physically defend himself in some way.
      • The disagreement/conflict/wager between Jacob and his Enemy necessitates that nobody else know the details of the Enemy, or their conflict, somehow.
        • Jacob's safety somehow relates to his belief in free will and the good nature of people. If he had to restrict the free will of a third party who might try to kill them by physically stopping them from killing him, he would be defeating himself or his own philosophy by doing so. Thus, nobody can protect Jacob if someone's chosen freely to try and kill him.
      • This season has gone out of its way to demistify Richard, almost to the point of making of him a witless and easily manipulable pawn. Most likely Fake Locke was right on this: Richard was only making up that rule just because it was tradition or because it felt more like the ancient priest rites where only the higest priest alone could enter the presence of the deity.
• Jack told Richard in 1977 to not give up on Locke. This might have been enough for Richard to continue to trust Locke.
• Richard says only the leader can see him and that there can only be one leader at a time. If that is true then how are charles and ellie both leaders?
  • It is possible ellie is the leader now, then leaves to have her child (post incident), and Whidmore then becomes the leader.
  • We know that Widmore is not above bending/breaking the rules, maybe this was the start...having a coleader, which allowed him to feel as if he can break more rules as time passes.

Why Jacob never met with Ben Edit

• Perhaps, Jacob knew that Ben was being manipulated by his enemy and this is why he never allowed an audience with Ben. Just a thought. (Good thought, needs examples and evidence.)
• Because Ben's Innocence was taken by the monster when he was fixed by the monster in 1977. We've seen that smokey is on the side of Jacobs nemesis so by being turned by the monster has put Ben on the Black side.
  • We don't know that it's the smoke monster that healed Ben. We know he went into a temple. In case you haven't noticed, nobody touched by Jacob has died. After an innumerable amount of thimes they should have. A doctor and an obese man survivng every single firefight on the island? Unlikely. What is likely is that they probably brought Ben to see Jacob, and Jacob healed him.
• I believe Jacob truly did want Ben to kill him. Perhaps Ilana and Bram seeing him be killed would have been the sacrifice they needed to finally remove Ben and Jacob's enemy permanently. Also, for someone who has survived and not aged, and has seemingly supernatural powers, like Jacob, I doubt he would be killed by Ben that easily unless it was planned.
• The revelation that Ben never saw or heard from Jacob directly leaves four possibilities regarding how Ben received his instructions as leader of the Others: (1) from Jacob, via Richard; (2) from Jacob's nemesis, via someone else (a la Christian & Locke); (3) from his own imagination; (4) some combination of the three. As unlikely as #1 seems, #s 2, 3 & 4 all present the problem that Richard would/should have known that Ben was lying to the Others about doing acting on Jacob's orders.
  • Richard's instructions were clear, follow the leader. he isn't privy to Jacob's plan or concerns, he is simply an advisor. He was probably told not to interfere.
• It is interesting to note that the only reason Ben got "in" with Richard & the others is because Esau conjured his dead mother before his eyes and led him to the jungle. Esau was leading him to his ultimate destiny of being the one to kill Jacob. (This isn't fact.)
• This theory goes along with the one about everyone who Jacob touches ends up in the 70's. Jacob never met with Ben for this reason as he knew it was Ben's destiny to be in 2007, not 1977, in order to kill Jacob.

Bernard & Rose Edit

• Rose and Bernard represent something more. What they said, about "you people" constantly fighting against each other, echoes what Nemesis said at the beginning about sowing conflict and strife. Either Nemesis got to them also and used them to try and dissuade Jack and Co from carrying out their plans, or Rose and Bernard are merely devices used to further illustrate the duality of the island and the perspective of hopelessness (destiny?) that Nemesis/Esau represents. It's fishy that they were living in the jungle all those years without Sawyer finding them, and that every time he tells them that, they say, "we know."
• Throughout the series (and in life) we are reminded that black and white are in opposition, one the "negative" of the other, symbols of good and evil. And yet, Rose and Bernard, who literally are black and white, represent stability, harmony and togetherness, the only couple in the show to consistently do so: black and white, not black or white. Ironic. (Racial stereotypes are not basis for theory.)
• They could very well have died from the flaming arrows or from some other cause and are possessed by Nemesis/Esau. (already discredited by D&C)
  • Taking this idea a step further, if Bernard and Rose were just apparations controlled by Nemesis, it could be that Nemesis realised the importance of Juliet. Juliet is the only one that was not "touched" by Jacob, making her the variable - she was the only one that could really make a difference and change things. By having Bernard and Rose talking about peace and offering the tea, it is an attempt by Nemesis to make her change her mind about going to see Jack. (evidence????)
• I think it's a rather paranoid theory, as the pair really aren't acting so out of character. They know they're lucky to be alive (especially in Rose's case) and so decided they should spend the rest of their lives simply being together in peace. Bernard offering Juliet the tea is almost a way of offering her a way out of the bloodshed and pain to come, by leaving her group and staying with them. It also harks back to the older era of Lost in that there is some humanity and humour (e.g Vincent alive and well, two people who love each other without complication) and also a simplicity that is now lost (no pun intended) on the 70s group who face a bleak and painful existence trying to change/maintain things or hide etc. Ultimately though, if the pair were a manifestation of Esau then what was the purpose of them being there to great the trio? (blogging)
• The purpose of their greeting the trio was two-fold: First, it was a narrative device to show the difference between Jacob and Esau. Jacob, as we see at the beginning of the episode, invites people to join the island, even to bring trouble and conflict to it, in order to achieve "progress." Jacob's nemesis, on the other hand, believes in isolation, keeping away from the outside, shunning outsiders, and believing the best one can hope for from life is peace and quiet. Second, Bernard was offering for Juliet to stay behind and leave the effort to change history (if that's what they were really doing). This might be to prevent Juliet from playing her extremely key role in the incident... detonating the bomb. Bernard could have just killed her, and all of them, if indeed he's an agent of Esau, but it appears that The Rules restrict what Jacob and Esau are able to do to each other, and everyone else. (blogging)
• Bernard offering juliet tea was a way to change the future. or the past if you will.
• I had just assumed they were there for a little perspective -- much like Arzt and Frogurt -- contrasting more "normal people" with the main characters, who are more driven to accomplish something instead of leave things as they were. (That, and to answer viewers' questions as to whether they survived.)
• This is reliant upon above theories: Suppose the cabin does not belong to Jacob but to his adversary as others have suggested (Whether it is as punishment or by choice is irrelevant here). Then, it is not Jacob who is averse to technology, it is his nemesis. Jacob did refer to progress which would set these two apart from one another. If this is all true, the simplicity of Rose and Bernard's lifestyles would show a tendency towards the nemesis.

Not Actually A Bomb Edit

• During his three year stint in Ann Arbor at the University of Michigan, Faraday works on a way to use the high power of the electromagnetism to change time. The device pulled from the middle of the H-Bomb, is not actually the core, it's a device Faraday made in 1974-1977 which can change time, but only if there is a large source of electromagnetism to power it. He then takes this design gets it built, and then travels back in time and sets it up in Jughead, and the events leading to Jughead to get on the island. He then goes back to Dharmaville in 1977 to get the events set up in order for it to get used. He lies about it being an H-bomb for some yet to be revealed reason. (Any evidence at all would be great. To start with, how did Faraday time travel in Ann Arbor?)
• I think the OP is suggesting that during his time off island, Farraday time travelled WAY back...like before the time in "Jugehead" and places the 'bomb' there. This is how the bomb got there, and the bomb is in fact just a housing container for whatever this other device is that he has created. He know how everything else is going to play out (meeting Eli, burying the bomb, him coming back) and knows that it will end up in the right place.
• Or maybe it was a bomb, but just not an explosion. Do we know for sure that the 'white flash' was the detonation of the fission detonator bomb? Post above claims that the sound effect was different. Could the white flash have been been the dreaded 'major electro-magnetic event'? After all, the whole point of trying to explode the bomb was to prevent such an event. Since the bomb did not go off, so maybe the event happened after all (for the hard core lostpediacs, it wou be interesting to measure the time from when the magnetism started going crazy in 'Live Together, Die Alone' and the discharge/flash and the time between the stuff being pulled into the hole and the white flash). Maybe episode 1 of the next season will show the 'bomb' sitting there untetonated? Maybe all of the brouhaha about the bomb was not to blow up the Swan site, but rather to use the bomb as a unifying task to get the Losties the Swan so that when the predestined electromagnetic event happened, they were close enough to be engulfed in it. And maybe that's what flings them back into the future - the last time an event like this happened people were flung all over time. That gives the next episode a chance to send the characters to the time of the Egyptians and the Black Rock.

Jacob TheoriesEdit

Valid theories according to LP:TP were moved to Jacob/Theories as they are a better fit there.

Jacob is not dead

• Like his enemy, he becomes more powerful in death. They cannot die naturally but can be killed and once killed can take on any form.
• See here for a discussion of whether Ajira 316 went back in time by returning to the island. If it did, then ostensibly Jacob cannot be dead because he is stabbed in 2007 but we have seen him in 2008 (Jacob visits Hurley in 2008, the day before the Ajira Flight 316). (The discussion has gone on in many places on LP of whether it is 2007/2008. Until confirmed by D&C, due to this possibly being continuity error, it isn't considered canon. Canon is that they are now in 2007, but non-canon is exactly when Ajira 316 took off.)
  • The Ajira flight was in 2007, not 2008. If "present time" island is in 2007 that means that the real world was in 2007 and the flight took off in 2007, which means Jacob very well could be dead.
• Jacob is one step ahead. Since Jacob supposedly knows all, he knew that Jughead would explode, and if Jughead exploded none of the Oceanic 6 would take Ajira Flight 316 or bring Locke along for that matter. And if Locke wasn't there, Jacob's enemy would have no loophole to use, (assuming that his loophole was to use Locke to deceive Ben to kill Jacob).
• Jacob is not dead: all of Jacob's "flashbacks" are actually "flashforwards" in his own timeline. After he is "stabbed" and "burnt" he time travels out of the island, and goes on to meet all the Losties at different points in history for yet unknown reasons. Season 6 will be about this journey. (Please give evidence and examples that Jacob has time traveled ever, to support claim of traveling now, after dying.)
  • His visit to Ilana at the hospital in Russia actually takes place after the events of season 5 finale ("The Incident"),
  • Ilana was injured as a consequence of The Incident, ending up in that Russian hospital bed. (Please give evidence or examples that would place Ilana in 1977 at time of the Incident.)

Orchestrated his own death

• The evidence that Jacob knew what was going to happen is shown by Ilana and Bram wondering if Frank is a possible "candidate". But of course, Frank's not important enough. The only one who could go up against "Locke" is "Jack".
  • Counter-evidence: The Shadowies had no knowledge of what Jacob's enemy was up to. Remember, they initially transported Locke's body to the cabin while believing Jacob was still living there.
    • We don't actually know who the Shadowies expected to find in the cabin. They never said a name.
• Jacob is a Christ-like figure (with the Nemesis being a Lucifer-type figure and Ben being a Judas) and understands that he will die but will be resurrected again.
  • This is further shown by going willingly to his death, and, as such, he will probably come back.

The reason of the war: The nemesis is fed up with life being predetermined (like being stuck in a loop) and tries to escape it, which would run against Jacob / Jacob`s position / his function. Jacob, understanding the nemesis' reasons and motivation, is still forced to stop him / prevent him from changing anything, so his first attempt to do so is to try and convince him in a conventional manner and fails.

• Counterevidence: The nemesis believes life is predetermined. "It always ends the same" Jacob believes in free will. "You have a choice"

Therefore the nemesis taking Jacob`s place can`t be tolerated by Jacob himself due to his responsibilities as the Island`s protector (assuming he is).

The nemesis is jealous of Jacob or Jacob`s position/function. In order to take his place Jacob has to die, yet to take Jacob`s position after his death, The nemesis must not be the one performing the killing. (This has nothing to do with this section "Orchestrated his own death." Also, it needs to be condinced into a clear theory with evidence leading to a conclusion and then moved to Jacob/Theories and not here.)

Jacob´s death Ever since he spoke to the nemesis on the beach, Jacob had to act. his nemesis:"Do you know how badly i want to kill you?". Jacob "Yes". Obviously enough they had issues before, yet the nemesis never spoke out the fact that he wants him gone. As obvious as he never had to. Both knew. The nemesis telling him face to face, "forced" Jacob to act. From that point on (or even earlier, since he brought the Black Rock to the island (perhaps for this very reason to begin with)) he created a scenario where he himself would provide his enemy with the needed loophole!

In this particular situation one should ensure that trough ones death, events would be set in motion that may even undo the dieing and leave the opponent disarmed/disabled/disproven/killed at the same time. Not so far fetched.

Everything that happens, Jack trying to change what happened, Locke dying, Ben returning to the island,... seems imperative to providing that loophole not to early in the progress (assuming the bomb really exploded(important but in too deep as of now)). Better said, providing the enemy with a loophole rather than letting him exploit one himself.

It can't be helped but to think of a way to constantly interact with everything and everyone, even the nemesis, without leaving them to know who one is, which may explain the "need" for Richard Alpert (or at least someone like him, not implying that this person wouldn't be played as well).

It seems Jacob is keeping him alive/ageless so that he has one player to trust over the ages on the island.

No doubt Jacob has given Richard Alpert instructions in advance before, regarding other things that were about to happen. Therefore Jacob instructed Richard and Ilana (even more people) in detail on the course of action in the possible outcome of his own death.

Locke`s body was not dragged along just to show it to Richard (as Frank was told)! After identifying themselves (Ilana and Richard) Ilana`s word on Locke being dead would/should have sufficed, therefore the original Locke seems to reappear during season 6, he even may be imperative to the final outcome of this war or at least to Jacob coming back to life / or not dieing in the first place.

It was obvious that Locke was not himself pretty early in the finale (even had some doubts during this season). In the finale he played Richard Alpert as well as Ben Linus while both of them were mere steps apart. (nice)

So there are 2 instances. One calm and waiting, at peace with things as they are, and one longing to exterminate the other, thus rushing into every possibility that occurs to get what it wants. Those 2 instances should be able to act and think on such a large scale, planing decades in advance considering every player and the player´s every move/reason/personality.(Jacob seemingly even chose his players)

Final conclusions:

1. Everything that moves is an important part in the strategy of those 2 instances.
2. The people on the island were brought there for this particular reason in the first place.
3. If Jacob provided the loophole - he`ll win.
4. Locke will replace Jacob (if needed at all) or even the nemesis (more likely).

I wouldn't risk anyone exploiting me to find a loophole. I´d rather provide on myself (which I can control) and use that loophole to win over my adversary.

• Jacob said to Locke after he touched him/brought him back to life that he (Jacob) was "sorry this had to happen to you". Of course it seems like we mean being pushed out of the window, but what if he meant he was sorry that Locke had to be a pawn that would eventually be killed because it's all part of Jacob's "plan"?

(Theory pages are not for blogging. I only moved this to the talk page instead of deleting entirely as a courtesy because you put alot of time into it. Please either, create a clear and consice theory with evidence leading to a conclusion and post it at Jacob/Theories....... or put this into a Blog for discussion. It is very lengthy, and will therefore be removed from this talk page after a couple of weeks.) -- NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  15:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Identity Devil

• Jacob appears in the life of several losties when they are in times of pain and provide them with apparent relief. At second glance, Jacob acts as a source of temptation.
  • Kate gets caught shoplifting, but Jacob helps her getting away with it: her minor crime being unpunished she may in the future assume that she can commit a murder without being caught.
  • Jacob provides Sawyer with a precious pen, with which a young James will write his plans for revenge, that will haunt him most of his life.
  • Does Jacob prevent Sayid from a deadly accident, or does he cause Nadia to die ? Further to this loss Sayid will spend several years seeking revenge and killing those he helds responsible for the death of his passed loved one.
  • In his final scene Jacob refers to “freewill”, which is a classic devilish trick : the Devil shows the sin, the Man is free to act.
  • Jack received the words "...just needed a little push." from Jacob possibly fostering reactionary behavior.
    • On the other hand, Jacob's position from the opening scene seems to be in favor of man being a worthy recipient of free will. This is similar to the story of Job, where the Devil charged that man was inherently, incurably selfish, and God took the contrary position, that even a man driven to extremity could choose the right path. Ben's choice in the statue is reminiscent of this, though, as another user pointed out, Ben took the evil path.
    • remember, eloise said they had to re-enact the original crash as best as they could, with christian's shoes, and charlie's guitar. there will probably be many other items that were brought(sun brought something of jin's, etc.)

Is Aaron
Premise 1: People who are born on the island are “special” in that they have heightened physiology, age slower, are potentially stronger while they are on the island. Only the following characters are confirmed to have been born on island: Aaron, Ethan, and Miles. When Ethan was born it was revealed that the DHARMA Initiative chose to have children born off island meaning that Ethan (an accidental birth on island) and Aaron are the only children known to be born on the island.

• Support: Although there is no conclusive proof that being born on the island will make you immortal there is evidence that spending time on the island will make you special. Miles can read the minds of the dead, Ethan is fairly strong perhaps not on the level of superhuman but strong none the less.

Premise 2: Aaron returns to the island to but is instead vaulted back to the ancient Egyptian time period of the island. Aaron assumes the name Jacob or is renamed Jacob by its past inhabitants. Jacob grows to despise technology and uses only the ancient methods (donkey wheel tech) to travel to and from island.

• Support: Locke was told that he must bring ALL members of the Oceanic 6 back to the island. Furthermore, It was later stated that he need only convince one and the others will follow. A baby Aaron could have been brought on the Ajira Flight or Aaron could have become an adult first and then decided to search for the island. (perhaps to find out what happened to his mother)

Premise 3: Jacob has lived on the island since ancient times, and therefore would have an opportunity to meet people such as Ilana after he assumes the identity of Jacob and lives on the island for hundreds of years. They would in turn know him as Jacob and not as Aaron.

• Support: Look at the characters centered around the Jacob story. Specifically Claire and Christian are seen in the cabin in the episode “Cabin Fever” meaning that if Jacob were still in the cabin at that time, then the present people would have been Clare(Aaron’s mother), Christian(Aaron’s grandfather), and Jacob(Aaron). Furthermore, Christian who claims to speak on behalf of Jacob many times also tells Locke that Aaron is “where he needed to be” after Claire abandons him. In “Cabin Fever” (see Aaron’s wiki). Even if we assume that Christian is the “nemesis” in disguise it still seems to be an awfully big coincidence that he would go out of his way to make sure Aaron goes off island and befriend Aaron’s mother Claire.
  • The fact that baby Aaron was left behind could also support this theory. The proximity of an adult Aaron and a baby Aaron may be something like a disturbance that is not allowed. Just like the fact that Sawyer could have stopped his father's rampage and ultimately made him the man he becomes, adult Aaron/Jacob cannot interfere directly with the path of himself as a baby, meaning that Claire was not allowed to bring baby Aaron to the cabin--which ultimately makes baby Aaron leave the Island, which could ultimately make him Jacob when he returns.

Premise 4: Jacob is responsible for bringing many people to the island, meaning he could be the dependent part of many causal relationships that brought people to the island. Those people in turn may have done things that crashed 815 on the island. This would make him un-killable just like Michael was in the episode “Meet Kevin Jones” because he has indirectly become a causal factor in bringing himself to the island as a baby, hence creating a long and difficult to see paradox. It would also stand to reason that since he would again become vulnerable post 815 crashing that he would move to a more secure location “the temple” refusing to see anyone who isn’t trusted.

• Consequences of the theory: The following things do not support the theory directly, but instead indicate what the concequences of Aaron being Jacob might be (RE:solutions for the islands mysteries given Jacob is Aaron)
  • Jacob seems to have foreknowledge of almost everything that happens on the island including lists of those who come to the island, something that would seem to support the fact that he has seen the outcome of the events caused by 814 but lacks detailed information because he hasn’t lived through them himself. Jacob created the lists during the first iteration of the paradox and handed them off to Aaron who becomes the new Jacob. This would create the infamous magic box effect seen in episodes like “The Man from Tallahassee” because writing John Locke’s fathers name into a list which would be sent back in time would allow Jacob to get him during the next iteration of the paradox. (We are watching the final iteration of the paradox.)
  • Jacob asks Hurley to bring a guitar to the island, something that would only be important to Charlie Pace, the closest thing Aaron has had to a father (even if he doesn’t remember). It may even be possible that Charlie’s guitar came into Jacobs possession when 814 crashed and was given to Hurley to take back to the island and place in the tree where Locke would later find it, the guitar in turn helped Charlie get off drugs, which made him a father figure for Aaron.

(Premise 1 is the only one based in non-speculative evidence. This whole theory is speculative, and violates LP:TP. Please move to a Blog, to get peoples opinions and discussion. That is not for a theory page.) - NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  15:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• jacob causes every event that has happens to everyone who has something to do with the island. like the survivours,the others etc.He knows that these events will led to more events that will eventually led to some big realisation for the characters that will occur in the very last episode. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Explorer t (talk • contribs) . ("Every event that happens to everyone" is rather inclusive to write without evidence to back it up. One incident is not proof to say "every event." Also please move to Jacob/Theories when complete. Make sure to capitalize when needed.) (moved by  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  18:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC))

WHHEdit

The below comments were to wordy for a theory page and there is a lot of discussion in them. I have reworded some and left it on the theory page. As a courtesy to the user, I am putting the comments in their entirity here to give them a chance to re-work it however they see fit and move to a blog if needed. I have left a message on the user's talk page to let them know this.

• Daniel has the theory of variables, but how is Jack a variable? What choice did he have that he could change? We know he always tried to detonate the bomb.

In fact, if him detonating the bomb has changed the timeline, then what happened in the original timeline, they all stayed at the Barracks doing nothing? No, they always tried to detonate the bomb. We know this because we see the effect of their actions in the original timeline. Daniel was the one who started the idea of blowing up the bomb, and we can clearly see at least two (possibly three) effects on the original timeline of his actions about this in the seventies:

1. After he tells everyone about the bomb detonating theory he goes with Jack and Kate to the Others' camp and Eloise shoots him. This always happens because Eloise remembers in the original timeline that she shot him, meaning that he always went to their camp in search of the bomb as a part of the time loop. Daniel probably realizes as he dies, that his death always happened and that his mother knew, proving that he didn't change anything.
2. Before this, Daniel tells Chang that he has to evacuate everyone, which later on, other Losties confirm. As a result of this, Miles and Charlotte are sent into the real world which always happened as a part of the time loop as they would not be in the freighter mission.
3. Although this is not quite clear, Richard Alpert says, in the original timeline in 2007, that he saw the Dharma Losties dying, which could mean that he just met them when they went to extract the bomb and assumed they died after the blast. This, once again, could mean that Daniel coming to the camp and Jack and Sayid carrying off the bomb always happened, since Richard Alpert remembers it, but it's not all clear in his wording.

This seems to indicate that Daniel always came to the Island and always told the Losties about the detonation, prompting Jack to try to detonate the bomb, ultimately resulting in Daniel's death, and possibly, Richard Alpert's believing that they died.

So it seems established that Losties always tried to detonate the bomb at the Swan. However, some say that Jack was not the variable Daniel was talking about, but that it was Juliet.

Some say that the bomb not exploding and everything up to that was indeed all part of the original timeline, and has always happened, but that Juliet changed everything by detonating it. How could this be? There's no 11% chance of something happening. Sayid always shot Ben, Hurley and Jin always saved Jack and Sayid from the shootout with a van, Chang's hand was always crushed etc. This implies that Juliet was always entangled in the chains, and always fell into the pit, as a part of the original timeline. And of course she detonated the bomb in the original timeline: if she just risked a perfect life in the seventies because she wanted to blow up the bomb, fell into the pit, barely staying alive for enough time, but clearly dying, and saw the bomb that she wanted to detonate, had a chance to blow it up, would she really pass on it?

This means that detonation of the bomb is a part of the original, and only timeline, and that they didn't change anything in Season 6, but they probably did time travel.This is also in tune with every other episode of Season 5 prior to this, where everything the Losties do proves to be a part of the time loop they're in and everything that happened happened, although the theory itself is kind of stupid and useless in the fifties and seventies, since the Losties don't know what actually happened in the first place.

The only event that is dubious to the WHH theory is Daniel meeting Desmond; for all we know, this could be a part of the original time loop, and Desmond remembering it when he needed to could be the result of being brainscrewed by the time travel and "special", or could be indeed changing the timeline, which still wouldn't mean WHH wasn't right, since Desmond is "special", and, as Daniel says, the rules don't apply to him. So, he's a Joker when it comes to these theories.

However, further proof of WHH theory of unchangeable time loop is Eloise Hawking's comment that if the Oceanic 6 doesn't return to the island, "then God help us all". This could be because she knows that her young 1977 self meets the Losties from 2008, and that if they don't go, the meeting wouldn't happen, causing a time paradox of unknown consequences. Of course, she could just be guessing, but if she does know what she's talking about, this would imply that changing anything in the original timeline, and destroying the loop, would cause a paradox.

--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bwanar (talk • contribs) .

Sun in the Present Edit

Suppose By blowing up the bomb, they succeeded in changing the past. All the losties die, and Rose and Bernard and every other 815 survivor who is presumably trapped in 1977 lives out thier lives in the past or dies or whatever, and then time continues in the rest of the world and everyone gets on the flight and goes to LAX etc, but what would happen to the Sun that's at the Statue in 2007, as she's the only one still on the Island in the present day that The Incident should have affected? Would she technically dissapear back to the future style? leaving the Other Sun who got on 815 with Jin? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taridaliure (talk • contribs) .

• No, she wouldn't dissappear. She is not still on the island as a result of the crash of Oceanic 815. She is there because of the crash of Ajira 316. If Jack, Saywer, etc change the past and their future, they would succeed in stopping Oceanic 815 from crashing, but not Ajira 316. Remember O-815 crashed because Desmond didn't push the button in time. If Jack keeps the Swan from ever being built then Desmond never forgets to push the button on 9/22/04. Fate, destiny, coarse correction (call it whatever you want) could still put the exact same people on Ajira 316, even if they'd never been to the island before that. Therefore Sun, and Frank could still exist on the island in present day. A good question is.... would their past memories of the island be wiped out? They would all of the sudden say... "where am I?" - NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  01:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Notes concerning theories about the bomb Edit

(I'm rather new here, so if you feel that this would be more appropriate somewhere else, feel free to move it. And if I'm doing anything else wrong, please let me know. Thank you!)

A lot of the theories concerning the detonation (or not) of the bomb at the end of The Incident, have, I feel been based on factually incorrect assumptions about nuclear devices. Since this is a tv show, I don't know if this renders them invalid, but if anyone wishes to revise their theories, I have compiled a list of facts I believe to be relevant.

• 'Jughead' is a two-stage thermonuclear bomb, designated the mark 16.
• Therefore, the 'core' of the bomb that Sayid removes could be one of two (or possibly even three) things:
  • The primary nuclear device, a fission bomb (uranium/plutonium bomb). This is the only part which contains conventional explosives, and is therefore what the core is likely intended to be. However, this stage is likely to be a large spherical part, huge amounts of explosives needed to compress the fission fuel to critical mass. It does not match the item carried by Sayid.
  • The secondary nuclear device, fusion fuel. In the case of a mark 16, this is cryogenic liquid deuterium (a hydrogen isotope). This device is cylindrical, but is again much too large to be carried in a backpack, and cannot initiate an explosion on it's own. The intense heat and radiation of a fission reaction is needed to begin nuclear fusion. Since the fusion fuel for this particular bomb was carried inside a dewar flask (a giant industrial thermos), it is unlikely to be the item carried by Sayid.
  • The 'core' was removed from the nose of the bomb, therefore it could be the detonator, or electronic fuse. This would be a sophisticated piece of electronics, since it is required to detonate the shaped charges compressing the primary device to critical mass with microsecond precision, else the compression is asymmetric. This does match the device Sayid removed, which additionally appeared to have a timing mechanism, further supporting the conclusion that it is the detonator. However, the detonator is merely electronic, and contains no explosives or nuclear material, therefore couldn't have possibly caused an explosion.
• Juliet appeared to activate the device by smashing it with a rock; she may have inadvertently caused a short circuit, connected a loose wire, jarred an internal sensor, or even have 'cut the red wire.' If my above conclusion is correct, however, this would not have done anything. However, this is television, therefore the bomb may have in fact been one of the two nuclear devices (bending reality is often convenient). If it was the primary device, it could have caused a nuclear explosion.
• If the white light was a nuclear explosion, and was not absorbed by the 'negatively charged exotic matter,' then it most likely would have killed all the 'losties.' The design yield of the mark 16 was 6-8 megatons, and the primary would only be a fraction of that power, but still enough to cause damage like this. The bomb in this youtube video was buried over 2 km into the ground, and had a 5 megaton yield. The description has all the details of the incredible damage the shock wave dealt to the local wildlife. Tell me if you think anyone could survive a similar blast, albeit slightly less powerful, from a distance of what appears to be less than 1000m? Unless, of course, the light was not a nuclear explosion, but that's a topic for another time.

If you actually read this far, congrats on making it and thank you for reading. I hope I was informative in some small way.

--2012rcampion 03:10, February 1, 2010 (UTC)