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Another open theory, considering the blast door map is not to scale - could The Flame be located under/near The Tail Section? The Swan hatch area seemed to react violently to The Discharge & The Pearl seemed to almost attract the smuggler plane as well. Any thoughts?НародныйАртист 02:43, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
There seems to be some debate as to if this "hatch" is called The Flame or Neptune.. if i got this right --MRNasher
- I think the Neptune theory is based on some bad screenshots. Watching a recording of the HDTV broadcast on a 50" plasma TV makes a big difference. -- Lostpedian 13:51, 30 March 2006 (PST)
As far as I can tell, there's no "Neptune" written on the map and "the Flame" is written right on the station, the only reason anyone thinks it's Neptune is because the picture of the flame looks vaguely like a sea-shell. Yeesh!--Tricksterson 09:54, 31 March 2006 (PST)
I think that is under the statue of the foot of 4 fingers because is near to the water and remeber when the shark with the dharma sylogo attack sawyer was dark and maybe they cant see the statue and the dharma logo of the flame was in the tail and the shark was released maybe by "the mosnter" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncmL1ITR01U and in this video of youtube is an scene that is Jack opening a hatch and then a lot of water passs when he opened.. it could be "the flame"
That clip shows Jack opening the hatch in the Hydra station, next to his tank, when he escapes by taking Juliet hostage. -Uzerzero 10:08, 23 February 2007 (PST)
Should we keep the statement that no official logo has been shown for it? The one on the map seems fairly official
It's a clue to the symbol, but no Dharma logo yet. I vote for "No logo yet" and let the picture of the blast door drawing speak for itself.
No - it's not a logo yet, just a drawing. Logo is the full thing with octagon and all that... --aurora glacialis 12:04, 31 March 2006 (PST)
Does anybody think that it would be appropriate to put the new Stations template on the Flame page? We wouldn't have much to put on it other than the logo and station 4.
- Oh what the kepler, I'll put it in anyway. It it does'nt go there yet, then feel free to take it out. I left the other image of the logo, because I didn't know how to put a note on the template saying the same thing (if it's even possible). Cheers!--Gateboy42 09:24, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
If the security system is called Cerberus, then is may be unlikely that The Flame is the source of it. Written on the blast door is the text "alleged location of #4 The Flame" followed by "but unlikely due to Cerberus activity." This implies that Cerberus activity near the Flame would be unusual. --Sid67 13:28, 4 April 2006 (PDT)
The same notes next to The Flame could indicate that, because of Cerberus, the station is not at that particular location. --Eridani 09:40, 5 May 2006 (EST)
- The words "alleged location" also imply that whoever created the map never visited The Flame -- otherwise he would have altered what he had written. -- Llywrch 13:37, 1 June 2006 (PDT)
- What I find interesting is the blast door map shows several Cerberus Vents right next to the Swan which makes me wonder why the smoke monster wasn't hanging around the Swan all the time. --Jackdavinci 01:42, 14 March 2007 (PDT)
- The map says CV-I is "highly unlikely". There are two others around the Swan on the map but there is no way to get a sense of scale. There is also nothing to say that the monster has to stay near the vents. Dharmatel4 15:32, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
A while ago, wasn't there a theory on the main page that it could be called the Fume? (Look at the picture from the blast door.) Where did that go? Did someone delete it? -- Kevingetahaircut 11:56, 4 July 2006 (EDT)
- I think that "The Fume" should redirect to "The Flame" --Gateboy42 07:47, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
I believe it was Peephole who deleted reference to 'the fume' from the article, if I were you I'd just let it go though cause I re-wrote a theory on The Door and he just kept removing it so I gave up (I'm not having an edit war over a trivial piece of speculation) --Nickb123 (Talk) 08:00, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
This may have been mentioned before...The word Flame in Spanish is Llamada. The word Llamada also means "make a call". This is an excellent name for a communication station. It's a quirk, and probably just a case of serendipityPutNameHere 03:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Please don't post theories here whoever you are we have a theory page for that. --Princess Dharma (banned) 09:43, 4 February 2007 (PST)
These theories/speculations have been debunked in 3x11. ~~ Saukkomies 3:35, 11 March 2007 (EST)
Power Station Theory: Cooling Tower Steam
I was reading the theories regarding the Flame possibly being a power station of some kind and it occurred to me that if that was the case, would there not be some type of emission coming from it? I agree with the point that it is probably unlikely that it would be a conventional fossil fuel station as getting fuel onto the island in the quantities necessary would be highly impractical (unless of course there is some reserve of oil, gas or coal in the vicinity of the island). It is therefore more likely as pointed out by others that if it is a power station it would be Nuclear-based.
However as I remember from a visit to such a facility, modern reactors have large cooling towers, like all powere stations, to dissipate the heat and therefore produce a lot of steam. If we assume this station was built by DHARMA along with the rest of the station, then this would have been 1970's technology, possibly meaning a less efficient reactor with more steam produced. This suggests that if such a facility were on the island, would someone have not noticed a large amount of steam rising from a particular location and thought "What’s going on over there?"
Does anyone know if there is anyway to have a power station without producing any emissions (steam included) at all? I can't think of any.
--stu1984 17:23, 04 February 2007 (GMT)
Maybe the emisions are being piped away so we wouldn't see them. Maybe the electromagnetic force is being converted into electricity somehow. --Princess Dharma (banned) 09:42, 4 February 2007 (PST)
Couldn't they pipe the emissions into the ocean? If they were at a constant rate, they could even attribute to the circular currents around the island perhaps. It doesn't seem to improbable, seeing Dharma's vast amount of resources. -Uzerzero 10:11, 23 February 2007 (PST)
Lets Not change the logo till the episode
I know i made a logo based on the promo pictures showing the exact logo of the flame, and so did someone else but lets not change it till the episode actually airs..--Jabadibah 07:06, 17 February 2007 (PST)
actually, i have found on the net the exclusive picture. i'm unsure of how to download here, but over at www.stationzer0.com I (cerberus) have posted it. If you're interested in it, that is. Dannyfrankland 11:33, 17 February 2007 (PST)
I am aware that these pictures exist. The point is that they are not yet considered canon. --Princess Dharma (banned) 11:57, 17 February 2007 (PST)
Guys, I thought ABCmedianet was the bible here =P Since when were promo pics not canon? Yes some are not always correct but everyone makes mistakes. When the press release for Further Instructions came out, did anyone go "Wait, it just might not be the second episode, don't put it as that yet!" Sometimes things change, and some promo shots aren't used, but I don't see how that logo on the wall will somehow vanish completely from the episode. ShadowUltra 07:39, 18 February 2007 (PST)
Yes but we don't even no if that logo is for the flame or if they are in the flame. Looks more like a clam to me. Princess Dharma (banned)
- Might I just add, we had that logo pretty much down from the start - it looks pretty much identical to the actual one --Nickb123 (Talk) 15:48, 18 February 2007 (PST)
Do we ned to add some kind of spoiler tag when putting information like the flame station picture and Patchy's real name etc that we get from the abc promos? --Jackdavinci 17:07, 18 February 2007 (PST)
- Doh! I hunted down the spoiler policy page and apparently abc promo materials are not considered spoilers. Nevermind :) --Jackdavinci 17:09, 18 February 2007 (PST)
Oh I thank you very much! Now I know that they will find the Flame and that the pirate lives there and that Kate and Sayid will find it and how the logo looks like! This season I wanted to be unspoilered, but now I can read all before it, cause I know all important things allready. I don't care if abc promopics are official spoilers or not. I think I know too much about the episode by seeing this picture. Why you can't wait to put this photo in an encyclopedia, based on the things happend in the episodes? Why you can't wait three weeks to put that in? I won't enjoy the episode as much as I would it before. --Barclay 09:27, 19 February 2007 (PST)
Lol, thanks for clearing out the non-sarcastic part of that. Yes, that is the concern. Part of the fun of this show is guessing at the surprises, and that fun is ruined if somebody (even the network) tells you what they are before hand. On the other hand, other users log on to catch up before an episode, and part that means the trailers that have been airing all week. There's a balance to it that we should try to respect. Looking at the article, I don't think this upsets that balance. Sure, it's an image that hasn't been seen on the show yet, but it doesn't tell you too much plot-wise, and neither does the article yet. If it really bothers you, feel free to post a spoiler tag to the top of any article containing information that hasn't aired yet. -BearDog 09:39, 19 February 2007 (PST)
- I personally am not upset about it, but I was very surprised by it. If there are enough people upset about it, they might want to start a discussion about the policy on the spoilers policy talk page. I think it's better to have a coheisive policy than do it willy nilly. --Jackdavinci 10:47, 19 February 2007 (PST)
I have removed a few images because there is no need for more than one of the promo images regarding the station as we currently don't have a description of the station, and when we do we will be able to add images accordingly. However until then a bunch of random very similar images is not going to help. We also have a link to the Blast door map article so there is no need for that picture as it doesn't show anything.-Mr.Leaf 16:21, 19 February 2007 (PST)
Am the only one a little annoyed? We wait how long to see this station and guess what? It blows up. We got to see it in 1 episode and Mr Locke had to go pushing buttons. o_O Princess Dharma (banned)
- Nope, you're not. All of those binders in the basement of the Flame could have had tons of information about the Initiative inside. I don't blame John so much, though. As usual, Candle was ambiguous as to what certain functions of the computer were. He should have told Kate and Sayid about the message before starting to play around, though. He just lost a couple points in my favorite character rubric. :( --PsychoYoshi 10:30, 8 March 2007 (PST)
Character's disregar for escaping the island seem to be cropping up a lot recently. They find a car yet don't look for a road and now this!!! Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Princess Dharma (banned)
It appears that there are certain items marked with the Swan logo in the Flame (e.g. the lanterns, merlot, vodka...). This implies that (either) the initiated supply drops are supposed to keep only the Swan up to date, or the Others did have back-door access to it. --Stan 12:35, 8 March 2007 (PST)
- Perhaps the Others would raid the Swan's supply drop prior to the Swan residents retrieving their booty.
- Got any screenshots? I had the impression that all the items in the Flame had the Flame Logo on them. I'll try to check later tonight. --Doc 13:23, 8 March 2007 (PST)
- Following are several of the items from other stations seen in The Flame:
--Stan 03:41, 9 March 2007 (PST)
"If you worked in communcations before the days of online documentations, you will know what all those binders are for".
Tell us, dharmatel, tell us now! --Jackdavinci 15:30, 8 March 2007 (PST)
- In the days before CD-ROMs, DVDs and Gigabyte Disk Drives, everything that a person needed to know to keep a particular device or communication system had to be printed out as books. There would have been books to describe the entire design of the system, how to operate every imaginable detail of the system, how to diagnose and perform every possible maintainence activity associated with the entire system (including the station itself , the cable runs, the video system, the computers...etc), endless lists of every single important replaceable part in the system and its part number, wiring diagrams, emergency procedures, what all the individual lights meant and on it goes. Every book came with an engineering part number that looked exactly like the numbers on the front of the binders. The only thing they got wrong was giving the different binders the same part numbers (each should have a different one). Its amazing how many pages it would become printed, but it was also often amazing how difficult it was to find the right information.
- If you remember, one entire binder was devoted to food drops. A food drop involves calling for the drop, going to where the parachute lands and collecting the food. While you would think that is a simple process, they had an entire binder just for that one thing. The only extra useful things they might have got from examining the binders was the existance of the tunnels, maybe the details of the Cerberus system and possibly any suprises on the route to the barracks. Dharmatel4 16:07, 8 March 2007 (PST)
- If no one has noticed, the purpose of The Flame is communications, and keeping every record of DHARMA activities. The "The Others" are not with DHARMA, and if they get into the station, it is meant for the recruiter to Enter 77 and destroy the station, and keep all DHARMA records secret. So, it's not Zoology, Nuclear Power, or Hydroelectric Power. It's Orientation Station 4: The Flame: Communications. And yes, even though it says this on the Main Page, this is for the idiots who don't check. It is called The Flame for a literal reason. :: |†|[ K i t s u n e ]|†|
- There was nothing in the program that says anything about record storage at the flame. The 77 code was only available if both the dish and the sonar were both down (no communication to the outside) and the hostiles were attacking the Flame. The code would keep the hostiles from taking over the flame in a worst-case situation. It was designed to prevent what (probably) did happen. The hostiles took over the flame and pretended to the outside world that the initiative was still functioning. They could get supplies and take advantage of whatever resources were available on the outside to members of the initiative (such as bringing new recruits in). Dharmatel4 17:43, 8 March 2007 (PST)
The 77 code
"There is no canonical source that even hints that entering the 77 Code was what blew up the Flame. To say it did is pure speculation." (from comments)
- explosion occurs
- Sayid - "What have you done john? ..."
- John - "the computer said if there was an incursion by the hostiles I should enter 77 so I entered 77."
That is what is said. The matter of if John is lying or not would be speculation. But there is no speculation that the explosion occurs, Sayid in response askes him "what have you done" and he responds by describing the 77 code. What the characters say in the absence of other evidence has to be considered canon.
If thats not acceptable, the fact that explosion occured at least has to be mentioned rather than having text that seems to suggest nothing happened. Dharmatel4 13:04, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
I changed it to "The explosion of the station was implied by Locke to Sayid to have been the result of his pressing 77." which is a canonical fact about the dialogue and should satisfy everyone. --Jackdavinci 09:40, 17 March 2007 (PDT)
77 code: avoiding an edit war
- I thought the edit was a good compromise but I was contacted by somone who still wasn't satisfied, so I'm modifying my opinion about this a little bit. At the end, I'm going to give my modified suggestion for how the section in question should be worded. But I'm not going to make the change myself. If there's a general consensus that's a good wording and fair comprimise, I'll leave it to someone else to make the change.
- I think that it's great that you are trying to avoid an edit war by communicating. After Enter 77 aired it seemed pretty clear to me and others that entering 77 blew up the Flame. At that time, I thought it was a nitpick to say that we didn't know, but I was willing to concede to the technicality. But at the same time, I thought it was a mistake to just delete all reference to it, because clearly at least Sayid and Kate believed that Locke entering the code is what caused the explosion. So I figured it was ok to not say that entering 77 caused the explosion as long as it was mentioned that Locke implied that it did, hence "The explosion of the station was implied by Locke to Sayid to have been the result of his pressing 77."
- I think that would have sufficed, had events not been addressed again in the show. Since Par Avion revealed that Locke stole some C4, this puts a lot of his behavior and motives into question. But again, I think the possibililty that entering 77 caused the explosion is more than a theory or idle speculation, it's clearly something the writers of the show wanted us to consider, and it's clearly something Locke was communicating as his version of the events to Kate and Sayid. That said I now also agree that the possibility that entering 77 did *not* cause the explosion is not worded strongly enough.
- So like all contested things, we word it NPOV (Neutral point of view and state the facts). I suggest the following wording:
- "The explosion of the station happened not long after Locke entered 77, and Locke implied to Sayid that there was a causal link, however the actual cause of the explosion and effects of 77 remain unknown."
- I leave it in your hands. --Jackdavinci 16:56, 17 March 2007 (PDT)
"If the station was so critical and the Dharma Initiative would go so far as to wire it so that the "Hostiles" could not get control of it, why would it be built above ground and why would it be in a location that could be easily sieged?"
- It seems like DHARMA's problems with the Hostiles developed over time. When they first built the stations they didn't have as many secrity concerns --Jackdavinci 08:14, 2 May 2007 (PDT)
- A large part of the station was underground. And we know from the cable map that there is/was a tunnel right to the barracks. It could be the case that equipment seen (the video monitors and computer) were brought up from underground after the Others took the station. The above-ground portion of the Flame looks like a warehouse converted to living space rather than a station. The underground portions of the station seem like they could be well-defended against an attack and with the tunnel, it could be resupplied forever. Dharmatel4 10:15, 2 May 2007 (PDT)
About the name
The current theory is that all of the station names (except the Looking Glass) are references to Apollo. I have what I think is a much better explanation for the Flame. The problem is that the flame is the only one it works for.
The DHARMA Logo is derived from the bagua, which contains trigrams. The fourth trigram is elementally linked to fire - and the Flame is the fourth DHARMA station. It's a pretty good link - the only problem is that none of the other DHARMA stations have names that seem to have to do anything with the trigrams. -HeckYes 20:09, 30 May 2007 (PDT)
Nadia Comăneci is an anagram for An Oceanic Mind
The monitors shown when Ben uses the station to see the outside world don't seem to be the same ones shown where Sayid is captive; is Sayid captive in another area of the Flame with other monitors? TheHYPO 19:54, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Dharma (Flame) Binders
Be nice, I'm a n00b and this is my first post.
Does anyone know the font*** and font size used on the DHARMA binders?
Also, is there a full-screen view (that shows the #'s on the bottom left)?
My purpose is to create fan-based binders, duplicate, distribute to fans, and replicate them, of course.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
DI9FFTR731 23:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)DI9FFTR731
(I can't believe no one took that name yet!)