Contents 1 Flash Sideways Date 2 It was all a Dream.....? 3 Ongoing Cycle? 4 We are still on the Island 5 The Smoke Monster Was Successful & Escaped 6 CONFIRMED: Ending Credits Scene Was Not Part of the Show 7 Sunken Island 8 Why was Ben in the "Sideways" Universe? 9 Stuff moved from top, No heading 10 Moved - Long thing about Mother and Smokey 11 Before posting theories ... read this. 12 Deleting "Ending Explanations From Bad Robot Writer (POSSIBLE HOAX)" Section 13 This is Hell 14 The Island is Hell 15 Questions 16 Flight 815 v Ajira flying over Bamboo Grove in the end

Flash Sideways DateEdit

Can we really call it 2004? It is really an unspecified time in consciousness. Isn't it? Jack Dutton 13:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely KeNjii. I personally feel like the finale had nothing to do with the rest of the show. If Josiah Rowe has no questions left that's interesting to me. I don't think I'm alone in this. I'm kind of heartbroken, and not in the typical fan way. I be came a lost fan in season two and I shared my obsession with my brother Shane. We were both hooked. While I was catching him up, we spent many nights without sleep, shuffling to work the next day. Two years ago, in early 2008, my brother died the day before his twentieth birthday, in the exact spot where we sat to watch LOST. After he was gone, I couldn't watch for awhile, for obvious reasons. When I started to watch again, it all most felt like Shane was there, I could almost hear him sighing frustratedly, and babbling his own theories. I really feel that if anybody has the right to question this finale it's me. I mean if anybody could appreciate the direction that they took it should be me. I have to be honest, I don't. I can't say it was bad, it was good, for what it was. It wasn't as intelligent as I expected it to be. If they knew they were going to end it this way the whole time, as they claim, that just makes it worse. To be honest there's a lot more I could say...but I don't think I will. All I know is, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to feel about it. I'm just left with how I feel, which is lost...and sad.--Shaunaniguns 13:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry that the finale was unsatisfying to you; I found it quite moving. I didn't say that there were no unanswered questions, just that we have been provided with a lot of answers over the course of this season. —Josiah Rowe 19:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I understand what they wanted the ending to be. I too am a student of Eastern Philosophy, but lets face it not everyone is. I could see clearly the ending they wanted to present, Dharma, and the Narnia Final Battle references ect...That's not really what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that the ending didn't make any sense, just that as far as delivering answers to logical questions it was an epic level fail. Yes I understand that if we are looking at things from this perspective those things just don't matter. The fact is to a lot of people were expecting answers to all those little logical questions, even if people with the understanding think it's trivial. I think that's the dividing factor between fans right now. Some of us are slightly insulted that the bulk of the show was written off as irrelevant.--Shaunaniguns 21:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Agree here too. They made a big deal out of the three-year lag between ALT and OTL. Turns out to be entirely irrelevant. That is not honest storytelling. Everyone who "created" the ALT, however they did that, made themselves the same age as they were in 2004? Why? And for that matter, how can people go to purgatory when they DON'T EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE? (esp. David)--Lost in the dollouse 14:19, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The FST reality wasn't an illusion: it was another reality, just as valid as the original timeline. David didn't exist in the original reality, but he needed to exist in order for Jack to overcome his daddy issues (by becoming a father himself). David wasn't part of the FST's creation, but he had an independent life there. It's like the different planes of existence in Buddhism: higher realms have their own inhabitants. A soul who has practiced good dharma can pass from our world to a higher reality, and from there can reach enlightenment. For more on this, see my blog post. —Josiah Rowe 19:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Jack could have overcome his daddy issues by talking with his daddy. Jack's dad, Christian, was right there in the FSW. A fake son was not needed for Jack to work through daddy issues. Fake people imply a fake reality. --Andnow 11:20, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

It also makes the end of season 5 completely irrelevant. Are we just supposed to assume that the atom bomb never was detonated? What about Juliet saying "it worked"? There is nothing in the finale that suggests the detonation had anything to do with the flash sideways timeline, which is what we were led to believe. --Rp2012 19:03, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The bomb was detonated, and it caused the DHARMA Initiative people to set up the button in the Swan station. But no, the bomb didn't cause the FST: that was a misdirection. Juliet saying "it worked" was just like her saying "let's go Dutch" — a connection at the moment of her death to her life in the next reality. (She says both of those things in her conversation with James Ford next to the vending machine.) —Josiah Rowe 19:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

In the main timeline the bomb clearly doesn't detonate though. So what as the flash at the end of season 5? If it wasn't a bomb detonating it was never explained and is downright deceitful.--Rp2012 19:35, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

A "fade to white" at the end of the show. No different to a fade to black. You don't see the bomb explode, the bomb remains intact during the frames where the whole picture fades into the white "Lost" logo screen.Beelzebubbles101 11:22, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

And if the bomb was detonated how would DHARMA still be there? Wouldn't it have killed everyone present at the time or at least done some signifigant damage to the island? Where is the evidence of this? They were already building the Swan before the detonation. Seems like a pretty large leap to say it did detonate and everything played out the way it did.--Rp2012 19:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The bomb didn't destroy the island, but it did have an effect: it caused The Incident. The DHARMA folks were building the Swan in order to tap into the magnetic properties of the island, but the bomb messes up their plans. Instead, they have to set up the button and failsafe to prevent a repeat of what happened when the bomb exploded. —Josiah Rowe 19:56, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't the bomb kill Juliet then? When is it made clear that the bomb caused the incident? Couldn't the incident just have been the result of the drilling? If they caused the incedent by detonating a bomb it creates a paradox because they never would have crashed on the island in the first place if it weren't for the incident, the Swan, and the button like you are suggesting. Also why was the island sunk in the season 6 opener? We see the DHARMA shark and barracks so it obviously happened not to long ago. But then we find out nothing is actually real in the flash sideways timeline anyways so it doesn't really matter. --Rp2012 20:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The Incident was inevitable. Jack tried to stop it, but whatever happened, happened. The white light at the end of the Season 5 finale is just a surge of electromagnetic energy that was enough to send them back to 2007. The bomb was kept in its place, and over the bomb, there was a fail-safe in case something went wrong.(The same fail-safe that Desmond used to destroy the electromagnetic energy) I'm betting that Dharma constructed the fail-safe thingy just in case the putting-in numbers thing fails some time, and the fail-safe is something that they can use as a last resort since detonating the hydrogen bomb might've destroyed the whole island(but when Desmond did it..God know what happened).Cc7asan 18:11, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Just because Juliet was banging on a hydrogen bomb doesn't mean it necessarily caused the "white flash". The entire season leading up to that point had several "flashes". Moreover, the "flashes" occurred at very crucial moments that either led to revelations or removed the flashees from harm's way, or just take them to "where" (or when apparently) they needed to go. Perhaps the Island was working in it's mysterious way to ensure its own salvation by saving (or merely moving) its saviors. After all, The Island needed them as much as they needed the Island... I vote: No bomb explosion--just another flash bringing them back to 2007. The wreckage of the Swan site when they returned, was the way it was left, a few years after Desmond turned the failsafe key. Juliet died from her injuries sustained during her fall. And her words, "It worked.", merely an echo foreshadowing her pre-"awakening" moment with Sawyer in the Limbo/Purgatorial "Sideways" Universe. --TatsX 09:04, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose that would make sense, but it seems a little underhanded since we were led to believe the bomb went off especially with Faraday talking in the flash sideways about already detonating the bomb. I know Lost is a show that makes its living off of twists and suprises, but this one just didn't seem to work as well. I feel like I have more questions now then I did at the start of the season 6 which was billed as the sesason of "no more questions", but yet noone is even totally sure what the ending even means, just look at all this debate for proof. --Rp2012 20:14, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

But we heard the bomb sound go off when the white flash happened. So the bomb did go off. I believe that when they set off the bomb, they were in the Flash Sideways universe. This was a reality split off from our reality by the detonation of the bomb. As Rp2012 pointed out, we know the bomb didn't go off in our normal reality because we would have seen major damage on the island. I believe the writers actually confirmed that the reason the island was sunk in the Flash Sideways was because of the bomb. So they "created" the Flash Sideways together by setting off the bomb, and that is where they all went when they died. The reason I think that they were in the Flash Sideways when they thought they were in 1977 is that this is the only explanation. Where did the effects of the bomb go? They went on to become another reality. How then could Charlotte remember Daniel from her childhood? She didn't; in her last moments of life she must have been flashing between Flash Sideways and normal reality, and saw her encounter with Daniel in Flash Sideways as a little girl. She then said "I'm not allowed to have chocolate before dinner" and died. This is exactly like when Juliet was dying and she said "we could go Dutch" and then thought "It worked" right as she died. We know that the Dutch line is from her conversation with Sawyer at the vending machine, so she definitely was flashing between FS and normal reality in her last moments. This parallels Charlotte's death and is a clue that they weren't actually in 1977 when they set off the bomb; they were in FS.--Sammerjammer 03:09, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

It was all a Dream.....? Edit

Has anyone considered the real possibility of the show being a dream Jack has between the Oceanic 815 plane crash and the final scene in The End? When they show Jack's eye closing for the final time, the viewer cannot see the details of the clothes he was wearing.

This would imply that he was thrown from the wreckage in his suit, had this vivid "death dream" which consisted of these past 6 seasons and then his eye closing was in fact his actual death?

Coming up with the cast of characters wouldn't have been impossible since on a sub-consious level, Jack surely would have seem some, if not all of the other Losties while waiting to or actually boarding the plane in Australia?

Its a simple and easy solution which answers every question, in a lazy writer way. Consider Jacob's Ladder with Tim Robbins as another version of this literary situation or on Dallas back in the 1980s.--DonZak 15:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

• Jack is a solipsist. Everything is driven for him and by him. Whether it is a dream is irrelevant, as it only exists in Jack's mind

The show was an NDE, or near-death experience, which is a dream. Jack, as well as likely everyone else, died during the Oceanic 815 plane crash. The NDE is Jack's way of dealing with his fear of dying alone. This perfectly and neatly explains every possible unanswered question. --TheSecretSharer 23:26, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

The events have to have occurred, otherwise Jack's entire existence (within the show) would be rendered a construct that existed nowhere else but inside Jack's mind and for all intents and purposes as a show--irrelevant. Besides, Christian (who I believe at that moment is acting sort of as a proxy for the writers/creators) makes it a point to ensure Jack (and us viewers who loyally followed along on the entire journey), just after he realizes that he himself is dead, that everything that happened was "real" (not just a Bob Newhart/Twilight Zone dream). There was a necessary reason for Jack's existence and the pain and suffering he and the other Lostees (and we all) went through. Are we so cynical and jaded to think that the show's creators and producers went to all this thought and trouble merely to yank us along for six (possibly more) years to ultimately render their work and efforts intentionally meaningless? Then why show the Ajira plane take off before Jack closes his eyes?--TatsX 09:10, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

For me, this show has been about Jack and his perception of his life,death, before, after, with and without the plane crash. This entire show has been from the P.O.V of Jack for the most part, and even when when we see things from the P.O.V of other characters, i feel that the said portrayal of these other characters is how Jack perceives them to be. This show is essentially about life , death , karma -(the acts that we do), dharma (the acts we ought to have done) and self discovery of what we truly want as opposed to what we think we want. The protagonist(in my opinion) i.e. Jack is a complex character, he is a leader, he is very brave, never gives up, but some of his other qualities are what makes him such a tragic figure - he is a loner, he is restless , he is never satisfied by leading a simple , wholesome life with wife , kids etc and as his ex-wife aptly put it "he always needs to "fix things" ". Here is how 'I' see it- Jack saved people who must have died in more than one instance and not only that they did not show any sign of the injury.It was a miracle. In mythology/history only Jesus could save the life of people. He was God. I think he Jack was the personification of God. Or the 'son of God' as Jesus was. I am Hindu, so including the above formulations , I have the following understandings. There are essentially 3 Main Gods in Hinduism Brahma-the maker(inventor)- likened to the 'mother' of Jacob and the island(and the world) ; Vishnu- the protector(of people)-likened to Jack ; and Shiva - the destroyer(who kills enemies & destroys the universe when no good is left and only evil)= together they form the trinity or 'BRAHMAN' who is the collective entity of all the soles in the universe- likened to the chore/light of the island....Going by this- by mythological/historical context Jack i.e. Vishnu graced the earth in the form of 'KRISHNA'. He was also a hero, but a tragic-flawed one at that-Just like Jack. Jack had a major fall-out with his father before he died. He felt the guilt of the death. He could not 'fix the relationship' before the death and Jack is never in harmony unless things are fixed. He along with his fellow passengers crash into the island. Jack goes on a path of self discovery- of what he truly wants , from thereon, he thinks he wants to leave the island , but but when he actually does , he realizes that he is not happy on earth with the fixing taking place, he finally realizes that what he wants to do is to just 'save' people and 'save' the world- He did both-having accomplished his 'dharma' he introspects and realizes that he wants to make amends with his dad and that is what will give him true happiness. So he decides to meet his father. He always wanted the best for Kate - even though things dint work out her - he wanted her to leave the island and lead a full , wholesome life and she did(his P.O.V)same goes with Sawyer -not withstanding his rivalry...so on and so forth...What Jack 'thinks' these people want, he wants and that happens...everything goes well, he meets his dad. He is told he is dead. He is then upset but he comes around when he realizes he himself chose death over other options i.e. he chose to meet his dad. His duties 'dharma' accomplished on earth and having made amends with his dad, he and his dad are free to take the further journey for self discovery and ultimate salvation. Therefore in his perception of heaven it is only he and his father , i.e. son of god and god, looking down upon the people on earth- Kate etc and blessing them...They finally Join the exalted soul of Brahman which is their ultimate goal. this show has been as much a self discovery for me as it was Jack. I used to scorn down at unscientific superstitions but i realized that i am religious/spiritual/philosophical person beneath it all. I also find my self to be a strange and curious mixture of Hindu and christian beliefs- the later i don't know where i imbibed as i was born in a Hindu family. Anyway this show has been of self-discovery as far i am concerned and i am immensely satisfied with the arc of the story.All that i have said here are my perceptions of jack and the show and his perceptions of the people around him. Therefore everything is about perception or angles and the Topsy-turvy way the tile ie lost is presented says it all as far i am concerned. I had to get this out of me..now i can 'move on'-Ramya Rathan Kumar--Lost & found 17:53, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ongoing Cycle? Edit

• What about it all being in a cycle? Like an endless cycle of life - that Jack and Vincent lie there (btw - the tennis shoe on the tree wouldn't spend there all those years, right? It would be moreless newly-fallen there?)and the plane comes. Jack closes the eye, goes to FST to live his reward-life, meet his friends, and then, after unspecified period of time spent on socializing, they travel back (isn't it what Kate said they were going to do, when Jack asked her where are they going? it seemed to me like she was saying they were coming back to the Island) and then Christian went out the door into the light (the Source??) to be reborn (went out first as the eldest) and to start the whole cycle of LOST again. When we reach the Pilot, part 1 again, Vincent will wake up, Jack will open the eye and it will happen all again, as there must be someone protecting the island. That probably would agree with some philosophies. Although, I see some flaws with it. What do you think?

Also, what's the significance of Richard saying he saw all of them die to Sun? I still don't get it, maybe he was somehow referring to previous cycles? --Certainlynot 08:02, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

• You can see the around 23 steps cycle in my blog here: [1]

• The worn tennis shoe might be a serious film flub by the writers/producers. Even if the shoe would have been hanging in its original place 3 years (?) later, Bamboo is a notoriously swift-growing plant. I highly doubt the shoe would be in its original spot 3 months, let alone 3 years later... But everything can be explained away by the "mystical" properties of the Island...

• This was my theory starting around season three. Inspired by the ending to the Dark Tower, and influenced by Desmond's physicist friend in London -- who had a line about an experiment where if you run it ten times you get ten different results -- I thought that the end of the series would be Jack somehow magically being teleported into himself in the bamboo at the start of the show, unwillingly having to do it all again. My theory after The End is that Desmond's experience in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" was also a limbo because he died in the Swan implosion. When he chose not to marry Penny it somehow resurrected him on the Island, naked. It was one of the most peculiar episodes, and his nakedness is at least a metaphor for rebirth, and at most actual rebirth. Perhaps the losties get to resurrect on the Island. --Cobblepot 08:41, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

We are still on the Island Edit

Hello everyone, this is the first time I write, though I enjoy reading the opinions and theories of all with taste and respect.

The island is not a physical entity is a kind of concept. This island provides "questions" for those who are not ready to "to let go" or "to go." The most interesting of this, is that the island concept does not only apply to the characters in the series, but for all people who are "thinking" about the series. Since we continue reading and discussing about it, WE ARE STILL ON THE ISLAND. We are still looking for "answers."

If you consider this as a possible explanation, and you start to think a little more about to it, you can discover that some of the stereotypes viewers can be represented by some of the characters:

Michael: it is the viewer who "abandoned" the island. He simply said, "this is garbage" and did not try to find something good on it. This character does not appear in the "end" of the series, sharing with everyone else. So it represents the people who didn't see the full show until the very end.

Ben: it is the viewer who understands, or think he understands what the island is. But, who is still "not ready" to "let it go", in other words, "still have things to do". The viewer who want to say and research a little bit more about the show.

Jack: represents those who want a clear answer. Those who want to “come back” with a rational explanation of the events on the island. In the end, they probably understand and enjoy what happened on the island.

Sawyer: th viewers who at some point in the series its heart was "broken", either because the favorite character died, "Juliet," "Charlie", ..., or something happened and they fought with the island, and finally could never got over it. But nevertheless, they reached the end of the series with the "broken heart."

Hurley: The people who enjoy to the fullest. The "crazy" or "geeks" who "saw things", those how "followed" the leader and, at the end, those who are going to stay at the island forever.

• Just wanted to say thanks for posting this, this was basically my initial thoughts the first time I saw it, I thought the whole church scene was kind of directed at the viewer, and like you were suppose to be letting go of the show and moving on with your life. I'm really so glad you posted this because after seeing everyones reactions I was afraid that I missed the point. (MaxMoney37 06:55, May 27, 2010 (UTC))

The Smoke Monster Was Successful & Escaped Edit

Has anyone considered the possibility that not only did the smoke monster live, but that he was successful in leaving the island in the final seconds of “The End?” In one of the final episodes of the season, I recall Jack asking the smoke monster if he had assumed the image of Christian Sheppard during all of the times that Jack had seen his father on the island to which the smoke monster replied “Yes.” Could it be then, that rather than Christian Sheppard leading everyone through the double doors of the church in “The End” that it was the smoke monster taking the image of Christian? Could he have been fooling everyone, particularly Jack so that he could finally leave? It was never concrete that everyone had to be alive in order for them to leave the island, it was only said that they must all leave together (which may explain why the smoke monster attempted to detonate the C4 explosives on the submarine; after killing everyone he could then engage in the art of deception by pretending to be Christian and getting everyone to follow him). It seems that perhaps the smoke monster knew that he would never be able to get Jack to leave the island willingly so instead he came up with a more elaborate scheme. It can’t be said for certain that the smoke monster actually died, he could have in fact just been pretending to be hurt and then dead and his engaging in the major battle with Jack was only a ploy so that Jack would believe he had killed the smoke monster (thus when he saw his father later on he wouldn’t expect it to be the smoke monster). Alternatively, it could be that Jack killed the smoke monster but brought him back by turning the light back on and then the smoke monster continued with this elaborate plan. In any regard, it seems at least worth considering that everything that happened with the church was the invention of the smoke monster. After all, the smoke monster deceived Eko by pretending to be his brother for a rather elongated period of time which one might argue was essential to his ultimate plan of getting off the island when all was said and done (in other words, he sat in motion events that were critical from the beginning. in fact he confessed to Jack that he helped direct Jack to food and water so that he and his friends would survive. but of course he only did that for selfish reasons). I recognize that his idea of the smoke monster being successful has a myriad of holes in its logic (ones that I haven’t even began to touch upon here) but I thought I would throw the notion out anyway.--Dusk&summer 06:39, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not denying anything at this point because it seems to me that LOST is one of those creations that allow your personal interpretations. But I'd say that the scene in which MiB is surprised to see blood coming from his mouth was designed especially to show us that he IS unplugged from the source of his power and very mortal. --Certainlynot 08:12, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

• We don't know what happened to Smokie after Flocke died. What is death to the smoke monster? What happens when people or things die while the island light is out? Did death on the island release Smokie from the island rules? Was Smokie still stuck in his last island form? Would Jack know if he was touched by FSW Smokie Christian versus FSW ghost Christian? We don't know.

--Andnow 09:14, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

• Good point. I was also wondering whether Jack had some relationship to the smoke, due to the fact that he found himself outside the cave just in the same spot MiB was found dead by Jacob after being thrown out the light cave. It seems the island ongoing struggle is ever over and that it will last forever in the same format. AND - what was the smoke?? We still don't know and because of that I'm sorry... --Certainlynot 20:10, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

• I found the way they dealt with the smoke monster to be weak. Really wanted to see locke transform into the smoke - that could have been awesome! And we really needed to be shown something clearer when locke was killed. To say that it is open to interpretation as to whether the smoke is dead or alive or what happened to it is not good enough. That part of the story needed a much better resolution. --Headsgone182 02:10, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

• The only thing better than a ton of gold light flooding the Losties would have been black smoke pouring in and beating them all to hell. That would have been the greatest WTF in TV history. Jack Dutton 14:18, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

• • Occam's Razor people... Even with a show as convoluted and open to interpretation as "Lost". You may be over-thinking this point. Why show Flocke die (in ways mentioned previously) and not show clearly, that he actually escapes within the context of the show (a finale--no less) if that were the writers/producers intent? --TatsX 09:12, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

• • The producer’s intent was obviously to create an ending with enough sugary sweetness to put all viewers into a diabetic coma. Still, by nature they cannot make anything clear. As such, they leave open the possibility that Smokie is out there somewhere. Besides, a great villain can always be resurrected. --Andnow 09:25, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

CONFIRMED: Ending Credits Scene Was Not Part of the Show Edit

ABC has released an official statement that the scenes of the plane on the beach during the credits of the series finale were not part of the episode but was done by ABC to help viewers decompress prior to the news coming on. The scenes were NOT part of the story. (all sorts of news sources are now reporting on the matter)

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b182506_lost_redux_see_you_in_another_life.html

--Dusk&summer 03:58, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Sunken Island Edit

So why was the Island sunk in the sideways? A half hour before the end of the episode, I was sure I'd figured it out. I thought the Sideways world was the result of the Island sinking and MIB's plan succeeding, and that "leaving" it meant that they were going to go back and undo what Smokey had done and defeat him. But then they did the Purgatory thing. Which leaves the sunken Island bit a mystery. Any thoughts? Ao-bōzu 青坊主 * Talk * Contributions

• the way i interpret the sideways, and thats all it is is an interpretation, is that they had to experience what they THOUGHT they wanted in life before they could all let go. jack had a son, hurley was lucky, locke had a good relationship with cooper and helen, sawyer was a good guy, desmond had a good relationship with widmore, kate wasn't guilty, etc. they also thought that they didn't need the island. so in the reality they all made up after they died, they passed right over the island and continued their lives.Bassrockindrew 05:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
• There was no Purgatory thing. In no way did any of the characters suffer for their sins in the flash-sideways. Just as Christian said, they all created it as a place that they could all be together again. Their time on and around the Island was the most important moments of their lives, and they all wanted to live it together. It was a construct for their souls. The Island being sunk in the flash-sideways only meant that they never had to worry about it ever again. Having it at the bottom of the ocean also ensured that, even in their construct, they would never have to go to it again. --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   05:58, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
• The island was sunk because it was something that happened to the the castaways, and thus was real in their purgatory, but what they needed to resolve before moving on is what would have happened if they had never crashed. The island is sunken because they needed it to be.TheTaoOfLocke 06:30, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • The island was sunk in the 1970s because a hydrogen bomb detonated on it. We know from the flash-sideways conversation between Ben and his father that the island was above water within Ben's lifetime. Spikebrennan 13:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
• The sideways was a place for the main characters to meet before advancing on to the afterlife so that they could be together with those they loved most. The island held the light source which gave life to people and so, in the sideways where everyone is dead, the island is unnecessary. Therefore, it is sunk because in the sideways, it cannot hold the light because that is what they are on their way to.--WeAllDieSometimeKiddo 17:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)WeAllDieSometimeKiddo
• The island must have been sunk sometime by Hurley and Ben in their roles as #1 and #2 - possibly before they died or as a result of their passing--Loreynolds 19:36, May 24, 2010 (UTC)loreynolds
• It's incoherent. We are led to believe that the island existed in the ALT (per Ben & his Dad), & then sunk, for an unknown reason (but maybe much like what seemed to be happening when Des took out the stopper), which should have meant "the end of everything," & it is only explained by it begin purgatory. so for an unexplained reason, they sunk the island in 1975, and it did not have the effects Mom said. How were viewers supposed to anticipate that in any way? --Lost in the dollhouse 01:32, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
• The Island was sunk because the survivors created it this way. The Alt-Line was created by the Losties, meaning they also created the reality with the Island sunken. The sinking of the Island has nothing to do with the Incident. The Swan orientation film mentions the Incident, and this implies that after the Incident, the Island is still alive and well and Dharma continued their activities there. Jim08 13:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
• The Island was sunk because the H-bomb went off (i.e. the alternate timeline was created by them setting off the H-bomb, hence they created "this place" which Christian referred to), which destroyed the stone plug, and the pool, and the whole island sank. The H-bomb caused time to split into two alternate paths, one where The Island is destroyed in the 70s and one where it isn't and the incident still happened in the real timeline. The consciousness of the real timeline losties was somehow delivered into the consciousness of the alternate timeline losties (a la Desmond switching around) upon each of their deaths. I'd also like to think that the MiB is in Christian at the very end and he has finally got off the island and what he tells Jack is a bit of a lie, he isn't really Christian. And finally, the bright light is the start of another time jump where some or all of them will move on to a different time and place.Mattarth 19:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry to say that most of you haven't understood half the finale. The H-bomb wasn't even detonated. It was placed under the fail-safe that Desmond turned at the end of season 2 to destroy the electromagnetic energy. The alt timeline is an afterlife that the Losties created in their mind because they weren't really ready to let go. It is a place where 815 never crashed, where Jack has a son, where Locke has a good relationship with both his dad and Helen, where Sawyer is a cop, etc. But they don't remember the island because they aren't ready to let go and move on..Christian is Christian. All of them are dead(whether now, at the beginning of LOST, at the end of LOST, 100 years after the end of LOST) so Christian was able to talk to Jack. The white light is probably heaven since the Losties in the church succeeded in the Island's tests.Cc7asan 18:26, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
• Personally, I liked that original thought, the whole thing in the flash sideways was the MIB winning, and destroying the island -- I had this thought a couple of episodes ago myself. In fact, I'm going to go along with that theory as what actually happened, despite what the writer's wrote, (see this: [2]), since the bad guy winning is more satisfactory to me than half of this entire season being one big red herring slash bad reunion show. Clamshell 19:49, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the Island is as much a character of the show as everyone else we have grown to love. In the Flash Sideways/Afterlife, all of the characters have passed on, be it now or in the future. The Island, like everyone else, at some point, passed on aswell, falling to the bottom of the ocean. Perhaps this was a hint to the end that nobody could have gotten until it was all over? - [[user:shatarlore|Shatarlore]

• K.I.S.S. The Sunken Island was just part of the construct (as revealed--if you understand the concept explained by the finale)created by the Lostees in their purgutorial/waiting room before moving on world. Just like Jack's "son" who didn't really exist, it was created by the core Lostaways as part of a "meeting place" before they all "moved on". --TatsX 09:13, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

• Since none of the LA X passengers were aware of the island, they could not "wish" it into sinking. The sunken island can be explained as a way to distract the viewers from realizing that the plane was full of the living dead. Additionally, the island being sunk may be part of an inside joke. The writers knew that the FSW aka land of the dead would ultimately by highly controversial. They secretly acknowledged this possibility by showing the plane fly over a sunken island with a dharma shark. Thus the plane was literally flying over a dharma shark, that is, the plane jumped the shark. This could allude to the story line figuratively “jumping the shark” when it went to the FSW. - --Andnow 10:28, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

• The island was sunken because the Losties set off the Jughead bomb in "The Incident". The sideways universe was at once an alternate universe created by the exploding of the bomb and a sort of purgatory. When Christian said that they created this place to be together, he meant that they inadvertantly created it by detonating the bomb. --Sammerjammer 06:20, September 27, 2010 (UTC)Sammerjammer

Why was Ben in the "Sideways" Universe?Edit

• I think it would be really poignant, if Ben (and also Anthony Cooper) were in the Core Lostaways Afterworld because of some sort of cosmic behest of John Locke. He recognizes his need to forgive Ben to "move on"; and in line with the belief that man is not inherently evil, is proving that notion by reconciling with his most significant torturers--Locke recognizing that Ben needs his help to work towards Ben's own "moving on". Looking back all through the sixth season, "Dr. Linus" seems to embody the spirit of Ben's attempt at redeeming his corrupt, antithetical Island life. Not to mention, forgiving your murderer in the afterlife would probably require a near deity-like level of forgiveness reinforcing John Locke's "specialness" aura.

• I want to think that while Ben works out his issues in the afterlife, he is one of the whispering ghosts that haunt the Island. Any other takers? --TatsX 09:25, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

• Ben went on to be Hurley's Number Two, and we have every reason to believe he became a good, compassionate person. This would also make him very close to Hurley. He was a major part of all of their lives, and especially their time on the Island, for which they are all in that limbo in the first place. At the end, while everyone was trying to escape, Ben became pinned by a tree and everyone stayed to help him. If they felt the same way about Ben at this time that they did during most of the series, they would have definitely left him to fend for himself. Still, I wish Locke's FST storyline would have involved Ben a little more than just working at the same school. There was no real confrontation, and it didn't seem to be required for Locke to let go and move on (though possibly for Ben, but he seemed more interested in Alex and Danielle).

• I believe their fake past-lives and the people they become in this FST limbo world is impacted by what they were at the end of their real lives. Ben became compassionate as all hell post-The End and therefore was represented that way pre-awakening. Jack still never let go of his father, and his life hardly changed with the exception of marrying Juliet (influenced by his brief romance with her) and their son David (who existed to show Jack that being a dad is tough). He apparently let go of his real ex-wife, which probably is due to his moment in season three when he asks Juliet about her. Locke possibly became regretful at the end of his life during his depression over the murder of his father, which he had a hand in. Therefore, in the afterlife Locke had a great relationship (which he always wanted) with his father, but he was responsible for his paralyzation. In fact, I wonder if they had him kill his father to tie up both his and Sawyer's loose ends before they killed Locke off just for this purpose; it never made much sense in the actual story, with Ben forcing him to kill his father in front of the Others. --Cobblepot 02:22, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Ben was in FST for one reason. He tells us Napoleon at Elba. Napoleon decided to escape, terrorize Europe, and ended dying in the prison royale at St. Helena off the coast of Africa. Ben could have killed MiB at any moment. If ben had killed Mib, he would have picked up all MiB's abilities coupled with Jacob. The whole bit with digging his own grave was a masterpiece. The only question in Ben's mind was what power greater than His or MiB had done all this: plane crash, spinal tumor, happens to be spinal surgeon available: How did this guy Sayid get back on the island after Sayid tried to kill him. Yeah, he knew all about it, about Sawywer and Kate saving him. Ben gets saved by Sawyer again. Desmond's thrashing in the school year convinced him that there was a higher power at work. He knew it was obey or die. Desmond and hurley, maybe sawyer and Kate were working for this higher power. He never needed MiB's help. He delayed Ilana's death. Nobody points a gun at Ben and lives very long. The scene with Ben sitting waiting for MiB was the final decision point. Kill Mib and be killed by the higher power or survive. MiB had sudden moment of clarification when Ben killed Widmore and Zoe. Ben had to be stopped from killing MiB.--Past recaptured 15:25, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

Stuff moved from top, No headingEdit

Moved by me. Please ensure you add headings, that way it is indexed and allows editing sections etc etc. Also giving it a title makes it easier to find what you are looking for. Easyest way is to click "Leave a Message"    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   08:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Everything still matters in the end of the show. Everything we watched and saw happen actually happened. Christian said in the church that it was "all real, they are all real, your experiences were real...we all have to die sometime...some of them died before you and some LONG after." Damon and Carlton wrote this specifically to let US know that us watching LOST wasn't all for nothing. The flash sideways was the middle place (purgatory/whatever you call it) that they created to reunite AFTER they had ALL died. Kate Sawyer Claire Miles Richard and Frank all make it off the island and live; Hurley and Ben run the Island and die there; Locke was still killed by Ben; they all died at different times. We got to see Jack die because this was "The End" and his death was the end of the story. The story was about how THAT island that they were all brought to shaped and changed all of them. They were flawed people and they all grew TOGETHER (hence, if they didn't learn to "live together, they would DIE ALONE). Instead because they did live together, they died TOGETHER. That is why that quote is so important. They aren't aiming for some type of Utopia that is not what the show is about. The reason for the church or THE OTHER TIMELINE goes with some religious beliefs,I personally do not know what it goes with, but if you watch the Jimmy Kimmel ALOHA TO LOST special on Hulu, listen to what Matthew Fox has to say and it will explain that portion. The is more complex than just the mysteries alone...if you ever listened or read some of the final interviews with Damon and Carlton, they wanted to put the answers to things in the series (especially WALT) but it did not fit into the finale and they are going to try and do something on the DVD or explain it elsewhere. You are supposed to feel for the Characters, the mysteries are what hook you. (Pigg2123 05:31, May 26, 2010 (UTC)Nate)

I loved this show. I watched every episode in succession before Season 6 aired. I joined this place with you guys and I made my kids watch it too. I had a ton of theories that would have been viable options and in keeping with the series threads. For example: it was a big chess type game for Jacob and MIB. They used the candidates as pieces of the game and that is why the "rules" were in place. We could have found out the result in the last show. This fits with the black/white, backgammon, game references, etc. It could have been about the battle of Fate (special/destiny) and Choice(what is done is done) and the ultimate answer it is a combo of both. It could have been about saving mankind by sacrificing their own personal ideal world (eg Ben in FST Alex is alive with Danielle and happy. MIB says if you let me go, I will let you have this: Alex, Danielle, good relationship with Dad BUT if you keep me on the island or you kill me, then you get nothing. Not the island, not anything, Ben and the other groups will have to stay there. This way they are sacrificing their own happiness for the greater good. Desmond is rushing around the FST trying to get everyone together so that they understand what will happen to the world if they choose their own utopia. They must collectively join together and keep MIB on island and/or kill him. All of these endings would have answered the core questions of the show. Fate vs Choice, Evil vs. Good, Sacrifice, coming to terms with their flaws and giving them a chance at redemption, answering the core elements of the islands purpose, explain the importance of being candidates. I wish that the writers and producers had done a much better job. They had contributed so much to the audience for years, to have it end like this is just a bummer. Anyone who feels that ends were tied up, like Shannon and Sayid????, missed the point of the show.

You know before the finale I read somewhere that a fan said, that if the finale sucked he would have wasted six years of his life. I don't know how he feels now, but I do know how I feel. It's completely lost it's magic. I even tried watching some old episodes, it's gone. It just made me feel worse. By ending it that way it was like saying, not only does none of this matter, but nothing that happened before matters either. So what's the point?--Shaunaniguns 15:31, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

After watching the finale, I don't believe for one second that producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse ever had any "grand plan" from season one, as they have claimed in the press. This whole story was pieced together as it went along, losing its way several times, with the simple goal of keeping the audience in suspense from week to week, with hopes that their questions would be answered." this pretty sums up my point. --Windphantom 15:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, it seemed like they were building towards something pretty big too, but the last 15 minutes or so was just a complete letdown in my opinion. It seemed like Desmond was doing stuff in the flash sideways with a sense of urgencey as if it had something to do with the main timeline, but then we find out they are all dead and he is just trying to get them to "let go" so they can "move on"? What was he in such a rush for? --Rp2012 19:18, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Truth.--Shaunaniguns 15:17, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

What the?! That just leaves me with more questions! I thought they were going to ANSWER the questions!--Shaunaniguns 06:40, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

They've been answering questions all season. We learned what the smoke monster was, what the whispers were, who Jacob was, why people were brought to the island... and in the finale, we learned what the "flash-sideways" reality was. What more do you want? —Josiah Rowe 06:46, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The following will piss off many Lost fans. Many Lost fans seemed to please the writers "answered" many of their questions in season 6. e.g. What is the Tarawat Statue, who is Adam and Eve, what is the whisper, etc.

Oh com'on. Their so called "answers" are like, "Why there is a birthday cake there? Because I put it there. Why did you put it there? Because I bought it. Why did you buy it? Because I saw it in the cake shop. But why did you buy it in the first place? Because I have time to buy it. ^&*()$^" When you ask people question, do you expect answers like that? Only people with dysfunctional brain answer like that. --Windphantom 02:41, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

What about someone who answers the question, "Why did you buy a birthday cake?" with "Because I love you."? That seems to me to be the sort of answer that we got. With a few minor exceptions, we came to understand the characters' motivations. In storytelling terms, that's more important than setting out the mechanisms of why the smoke monster couldn't kill Jacob directly, or what the electromagnetic pockets had to do with the light at the heart of the island. Sure, there are some things that still don't quite make sense. But I think that on the whole, the writers did a fine job of wrapping up the main themes and character arcs. —Josiah Rowe 19:32, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Word.--Shaunaniguns 15:16, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

What was David's role in this? To make Jack happy having the family he never had? if so, why is he divorced in the reality as well? Greedoe 07:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps David's role was to help Jack work on his own father issues. In the imagined reality, Jack was a bad father similar to the way Christian was. Part of Jack moving on was to confront his imagined issues with David, thereby coming to terms with his own father's shortcomings. Just my take. Jdinger 08:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

• Maybe this was so Jack could resolve his relationship with Juliette or maybe just symbolic of the time on the island when he nearly hooked up with her but then left and in the long term picked Kate Therealmadferret 07:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

So, any guesses as to how Jacob's / MIB's Mother got there? Not their real mother, the mother who actually raised them. I guess it would have been nice to know MIB's name too. And who built the temple.. and who built the statue.. who finished the actual wheel.. what the light is behind it (it looks like the Source, but it looks very close to the wheel, and when we see inside the cave where the source is, it is quite open, no sign of a wheel).. why its icy down near the wheel also. So many questions I wish I had the answer to... --KeNJii 08:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

There are still a number of (important) questions still unresolved, but quick thought: was Walt's "specialness" answered by Ben's conversation with Locke in the Sideways? Oriel boy 08:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember. I agree though, there a lots of questions to be answered, too bad none were really answered in this finale. Maybe one day the creators might do an interview or something and answer everything... I can only dream haha --KeNJii 09:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please explain whether all the characters were dead following the plane crash and the whole island experience is just a purgatory, or whether the island was real and when they died on it they went to the flesh-sideways universe which is the purgatory/limbo place? I'm so confused! I don't understand how anything that we've seen in the finale is connected to events we have seen in the previous seasons - the dharma initiative, the Oceanic 6 leaving the island, the others, etc. Any (possible) clarification is much obliged. ---WhtRvn 10:50, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I am convinced that those who survived the plane crash did actually survive it and lived. When Christian is asked, "Are they all dead too?" he replies with, "Everyone dies." He never said that they were dead, just that everyone does in fact die. They were in limbo between life and afterlife, the FST is where the Whispers came from. Those who went to the church may have died on the island (Jack, Shannon, Boone, Libby, etc.), before the crash (Christian), or after the Source is reignited (Everyone on the plane, Hurley, and Ben, though a few of them didn't go to the church). jaj43123 15:50, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Sure: Everything that happened on the island, happened in real life. No one on the island was dead the whole time - they all survived the initial plane crash, etc. In the final episode, Jack died, Hurley became protector with Ben as his number 2, and everyone else who died on the island or elsewhere, died. Those who died without fulfilling their purpose (i.e. Michael) were doomed to forever be whispers on the island. Those who fulfilled their purpose (Jin/Sun, Sayid, etc.) were allowed to go to the Flash Sideways timeline after they died, where they searched for the truth and were able to right their wrongs, i.e. make the right decisions about their life that they should've made in the first place. Once they saw the truth/their past on the island/remembered it, only then were they ready to "move on" and come to the church, which ultimately led them to heaven. Imyy4u 15:42, May 24, 2010 (UTC)imyy4u

• I think that those who are doomed as whispers need the help of the island's protector to "move on". Without someone who is special, like the MIB, Walt or Hurley, they can never be helped. I think that the MIB was originally meant to be the caretaker of the island because of his gift, and Jacob taking the role instead doomed those who could not move on to a lost existance.--Trilance 02:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

This entire series has been an excursion into philosophy in many ways, and Jack has turned out to be the ultimate Solipsist (I think I spelt that right!) Basically, the universe exists for him and all the characters are merely players. Any truly open universe would have focussed further on such characters as Walt, who had special abilities. The fact that it didn't, suggests to me that Jack's mind created him. If it created him, it's all open to interpretation as a clever invention of the mind. Which it was actually!--Hickerton 21:15, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

What was up with Sun and Charlie "getting it" finally in this episode? Sun went mental when she saw Locke when she was being admitted to hospital but finally "got it" when the baby scan happened, and Charlie was the one that started the whole thing off by crashing the car and talking about Claire. Did it take touching Claire to actually bring back more than the "feeling of her"? Greedoe 13:17, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I caught that too, I thought Charlie already "got it" and was wondering what the deal with that was as well.--Rp2012 19:47, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

• There are levels of 'getting it'. Charlie had a vision of Claire, but not his entire life. Simiarly, Sun knew to be afraid of Locke, but not why.--Chocky 20:40, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

• But then how did Charlie know that he needed to show something and what that something was to Desmond?--Rp2012 20:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps he also remembered Desmond? We don't have all the answers here, but it seems clear that at the start of the finale, the only people who have "fully flashed" are Desmond and possibly Hurley. Everyone else is either totally in the dark or only has a slight hint of what is wrong. --Chocky 20:47, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Moved - Long thing about Mother and Smokey Edit

I moved what follows. The author should now take it and put it in a blog, or in the MiB theory page. It is also not relevant to "The End"    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:10, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

• The Smoke Monster existed on The Island before the events that took place in "Across The Sea", and continues to exist now, after "The End".

We see evidence that the Smoke Monster exists on The Island prior to Claudia's arrival at least three times in "Across The Sea"

1) The Mother could not have destroyed the well and killed off the entire group of men

2) Claudia appears to the Boy in Black.

• This could have been evidence that he had a similar power to Hurley.
• Claudia was the Smoke Monster appearing to the the Boy in Black, attempting to sway him toward "The Dark Side"

3) "How do you know all of this??", "I'm special, Mother!"

• The Smoke Monster gave the Man in Black additional insights into the mysteries of The Island.
  • This combination (his mother giving him the info) eventually made him obsess over The Light, and put him in an easily manipulatable position. The Smoke Monster just had to tap him a few times to get his attention.

• Jack is the new Smoke Monster
  • After Jack turns The Light light back on, as Desmond is being pulled back up by Hurley and Ben, The Man in Black's theme begins playing, as if to say, "You know what happens when someone's down here and they're not immune to electromagnetism". It's a very, very ominous scene with Jack laughing (somewhat maniacally) lying in the pool of water and light.
    • With all of this talk of Giacchino's music being it's own character on the show, you must take what it says into consideration.
  • Jack appears in the same location as the Man in Black's body after The Smoke Monster emerged from the cave.
    • The Island wasn't done with human Jack until he had seen the plane fly overhead. It is what he had set out to do since his eyes opened in the first scene of the series.

• The Smoke Monster takes on characteristics of the human form that it inhabits
  • "Don't tell me what I can't do!" - Smokey does this all the time.
    • The MIB said this once.
      • But he's very often doing things like John Locke - carving sticks, giving wise advice etc.
  • Jack as the Smoke Monster, Hurley as the Guardian
    • The MiB's final thoughts were a huge desire to leave The Island, and great hatred for The Island itself and all of its inhabitants. These thoughts are brought to life as The Smoke Monster that we all know.
    • Jack's intentions were good when he died. He was trying to protect The Island, save the people that wanted to leave, etc.
    • Hurley's job was probably very easy after Jack killed the MiB.
      • "You were a great number two" "You were a great number one" - Yeah they had it easy after Jack set it up for them to knock 'em down. They probably even had Jack's help.
        • Jack never said the latin incantation before he passed the water to Hurley. Hurley never became the new protector but lived the rest of his life thinking he was protecting the island when, in fact, he had no special powers.
          • This has been pointed out several times: The owner of the game makes up the rules. As far as we know the latin incantation was just a symbolic ritual that Mother made up, there was obviously no latin inchantation in the time of the egyptians that first created all the Island's structures. Jacob deemed fit to get rid of the wine part of the rite, Jack got rid of the latin chant as well. The only part that seemed important of the rite was the offering and reception of water (or a liquid), perhaps inspired by Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land. I wouldn't be surprised if Hurley passed away his role by offering DHARMA's ranch dressing to his succesor.

• There must always be a Guardian. There must always be a Smoke Monster
  • The false mother knew this. All of "Across The Sea" was a 30 year con by the mother to set up the next era on The Island
    • "Thank You" - why else would she thank the MiB for killing her unless she knew that she had done all of what she needed to do. She had passed on her power to Jacob, and set up the MiB to be in a position where Jacob would throw him into The Light and create the next Smoke Monster. Until both of these things were done, she would not be able to move on, and neither would the previous Smoke Monster.
    • It took her so long because she always wanted the Boy in Black to become The Guardian. He was the more "human" one of the two boys. Jacob would have been a much better stoic, silent, judging Smoke Monster.
  • "I brought you here because I made a mistake", "Jacob didn't know what he was talking about".
    • Jacob doesn't know all of the ultimate secrets of The Island. He is human and foul-able. He still thinks he made that mistake long ago (creating the Smoke Monster), but he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
  • False Mother was happy her plan worked out, albeit not in the most tranquil form. The next era, the era that began with Jack turning the light back on, might or might have not made Jack, or Jack's spirit inhabit Smokey. But if MiB's SMokey was flawed, unhappy and desired to leave the Island and prove Jacob wrong, Jack's Smokey must want the best for everyone. He had no grudge, all his tasks where done. He has restored Smokey into the security system it once was, tamed the rabid dog.

• • The false mother thanked MIB because the sweet release of death was better than the hell of the island. If you consider her being there century after century, alone, with a single purpose that will never be finished. I compare the islands guardians to the military soldiers that sat in missile silos in the middle of nowhere. Unable to leave, locked away from the world, tasked with a single purpose that will never come; and if that purpose ever did come there would still be nowhere to go as the world that you left to protect is no longer there.
    She was tired, she wanted to die and have it all end, yet couldn't do it herself, nor could anyone else on the island hurt her... until she made a plan and created two 'like her'. Why two? Two is one, one is none. Doubles your chances of success. Or, more likely, just the yin/yang, cosmic duality theme.
    As for her being a smoke monster, probably. She was there for a long time, and seemed eager to leave (one way or another, hence the reason for creating new guardians and thanking MIB for death). She was most likely there on the island with another 'Jacob' (maybe a woman twin, like her (Eve?)), and wanted to leave, or was jealous, etc, and killed her twin. This probably occured after she was cast into the cave and became black smoke. This is how she knew what was in the cave, what she described as a 'fate worse than death', yet the cave and its contents were based solely on her own experiences. This also plays into the cycle of repetition on the island, false mother and twin are guardians, one gets cast into the cave, becomes smoke, kills protector, is killed, etc. Ok not exactly the same, but why would it have to be? Black smoke/false mother killed the 'Others'. Could have killed as a 'Jacob' as they are both immortal, but not likely. She already showed the ability to murder by killing the boy's real mother anyway.
    Along the lines of a more 'realistic & scientific' view, the electromagnetic energy source converts matter into an energy form by breaking its atomic structure down at the quantum level. The when/why/how this occurs is probably a random thing that happens one time in a trillion.. maybe this explains the deaths of so many others (skeletons). Once converted into a matter/energy form, the person is still a physical being (being particles that still exist and can be measured), which is how it can interact with people/objects on the island. By condensing the particles close enough together and aligning their subatomic fields, the 'smoke' becomes a solid and can throw a person, etc. With time and practice, the smoke person can reassemble themselves back into a human form, and with enough detail to fool a real person. I found it intersting though that the smoke monster created hair, skin, body - but also clothes, shoes and a backpack and knife. And the knife and backpack were 'real' to the point of being able to be separated from the smoke monster, handled by real people and yet retain all original characteristics. If you consider the T-1000 or Mystik from X-Men, their simulation of clothing was only skin deep - there was no way for them to take off their jacket for example - it was part of their skin. Yet MIB can create Locke and then take off his backpack complete with all items inside. - Possible explanation is that these items are not *created* by MIB/Locke, but rather assimilated from real objects and disassembled into their atomic compoenets (like MIB's body) and the recreated by MIB when needed. This is more in line with a Star Trek transporter theory.
    Another consideration is why the MIB can't leave the island, as apparently others and Jacob can. My theory is that the source energy that created him also allows him to retain physical form, should he stray to far from the island(s) his body would lose its magnetic integrity and break apart. The range for this is unknown, but covers the main island and Hydra island. By turning off the source in the last episode while still on the island, the radiation/magnetic field/etc from the source cave ends, allowing his body's atomic structure to become stable (mortal human theory), and thus he could leave the island just like anyone else on the airplane, boat, sub, whatever. Becoming mortal leaving exposes him to risk of injury and death, yet like his (false)mother, death is better than being stuck on the island forever.
    How does the smoke monster retain memory and conscience? Two theories - one, that memories are just celluar links in your brain between cells and chemistry and hormones, or that two, conscience is a metaphysical thing (hence 'afterlife') that is separate from your physical body. MIB's conscience is trapped in this perverted form of a body (black smoke) which does nothing for his personality.
    Jacob's ashes/The Temple and ash/Whitmore's and Dharma's tower defenses - clearly an energy source (probably magnetic) that produces an opposite field to MIB and powerful enough that he can't cross it. MIB sees the towers and doesn't even try. As the smoke monster, the ashes seem to produces a similar magnetic field as the smoke monster hits an invisible wall at the point of the ashes on the ground and can't cross. Jacob's ashes have an equal and opposite polarity from MIB, due to the island, their creation, the energy source, etc. Dharma & Whitmore's towers are equal and opposite due to their (limited) understanding of science and the properties of the island and MIB. Many Dharma employees probably died getting this information - another possible explanation for the skeletons in the cave.
    As for the 'security system' explanation early on - possibly a early use of the cave on human guardians eons ago, before false mother became angry about being a prisioner on the island...
• This very detailed argument has no justification. LOST is a story, not an equation. --PubliusVeto 19:48, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Before posting theories ... read this. Edit

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Metroid101/A_good_explanation_to_The_End Metroid101 16:21, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" This encapsulate the final episode of the show. The eye opens and closes in a blink as the Ouroboros bites its tail. The recurrent theme echoes the Eternal Return, in the Nietzschean sense:

"This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence—even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it . . ." From Nietzsche's book, 'The Gay Science', Section 341

Nietzsche's view on eternal return is similar to that of Hume: "the idea that an eternal recurrence of blind, meaningless variation—chaotic, pointless shuffling of matter and law—would inevitably spew up worlds whose evolution through time would yield the apparently meaningful stories of our lives.

Therefore the Wheel of life represents an endless cycle of birth, life, and death from which one seeks liberation.

Physicists such as Stephen Hawking and J. Richard Gott have proposed models by which the universe could undergo time travel, provided the balance between mass and energy created the appropriate cosmological geometry.

Others have approached the question of eternal recurrence from a physics perspective in different ways, including a hypothesis based on the Transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics

Another possible referencefor Jack’s journey can be found in Religio Medici (The Religion of a Doctor) is a book by Sir Thomas Browne : “And in this sense, I say, the world was before the Creation, and at an end before it had a beginning; and thus was I dead before I was alive, though my grave be England, my dying place was Paradise, and Eve miscarried of me before she conceived of Cain.” (R.M.Part 1:57)

MMauborgneMMauborgne 19:29, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Deleting "Ending Explanations From Bad Robot Writer (POSSIBLE HOAX)" Section Edit

This section should be deleted from the Theory article. Although linking to outside pages is encouraged, links to theories purported as canonical fact when they aren't should be deleted. The link is clearly a hoax: prominent character names are misspelled (Lipidus, Whidmore, etc), factual information about the final episode is incorrect (such as the claim that only Season 1 characters are in the church), and the poster claims to be a writer from Bad Robot who -- despite referring to the writers in the third person numerous times -- apparently doesn't understand that writers are contractors, not "employees" of the production company.

I will be deleting this from the Theory page, but am posting this so people know the reason. If someone has a legitimate reason why it should remain in the article, please discuss here instead of simply reverting the edit. --AddictedToLost 01:03, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I did go ahead and put that link back, but I also changed the name of the section from "Ending Explanations From Bad Robot Writer (POSSIBLE HOAX)" to "Ending Explanations Hoax NOT From Bad Robot Writer", and I also included the entire explanation that you just posted as to why it is a hoax.

I didn't post the link in the first place. And I agree with you, that it's almost certainly a hoax, and not a very convincing one. And I agree with every one of the reasons that you wrote as to why you believe it to be a hoax.

Nevertheless, despite being a hoax, the article contains a lot of very interesting theories about the show in general and the final episode in particular, and rightfully belongs on the theory page. Between the disclaimer I added, and the more thorough explanation you wrote that I included, there is no real danger of anyone being deceived by this hoax. The only danger is that someone will read your explanation and not agree with it, and that's a danger we all have to accept about our ideas, because the alternative, which is censorship, is the opposite of what wikis are all about. I mean, what are you afraid of? Why aren't other people allowed to decide for themselves? Why do only you get to decide?

I appreciate that you want to be able to make editing decisions and not have them reversed without your approval. But you reversed someone else's editing decisions (two people's actually), without discussing it with them. And it sure seems to me like, if anything, there ought to be a higher standard when you want to censor something than when you want something not to be censored, rather than having things the other way around as you are proposing.

I think that even you will not object to the section the way it appears now. I hope that you also come to agree with me that the right answer to bad information is good information, not censorship. As of this writing, that fake article has been re-posted on at least 529 different Web sites according to a google search (see http://bit.ly/9LiYQa), and that number is still growing every day. And that doesn't even count the other pages that link to those pages, as this one did. At least this way, some of the people who see that article, will also see your explanation of why it is a hoax, and maybe they can spread the word. I think that's a lot better than just deleting the link, so that people just come across that article somewhere else without the benefit of your explanation. I hope you agree with me that this is the best solution. But if you disagree, "please discuss here instead of simply reverting the edit" made by two different independent editors.

--NYCDavid 02:35, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

This is Hell Edit

@Gaarmyvet, Please don't unilaterally delete entire sections without any discussion. Presenting a theory followed by a series of objections and replies is THE standard way for presenting a philosophical theory. If you don't like that format, consider taking up your complaint with David Hume and Jeremy Bentham, and every other philosopher that either did or didn't have a character named after them on the show.

The preposterous alternative is a "heckler's veto" where anyone posting any objection to any theory results in the deletion of the theory on the grounds that it is "still under discussion."

I could easily have deleted the objections to my theory under the pretense that those objections belonged on the Talk page. If you insist upon relocating the objections and replies to the talk page, I won't argue with that decision. But do not unilaterally delete entire sections, just because you disagree with the theory, while using some flimsy pretense that would result in the deletion of any and every section that has a single person objecting to it, even when those objections have been countered. --NYCDavid 16:01, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

The Island is HellEdit

• Ultimately, Lost is the story of how the balance of Hell was upset when some still-living scientists (The DHARMA Initiative) found a way to travel to Hell to study it, and thereby nearly let loose the Devil himself upon the world, and how Jacob used the opportunity presented by this crisis to bring a special group of "half-damned" people (The Oceanic 815 "survivors") to the Island to destroy the Devil forever, instead.

• The Island is Hell, or it is an island in Hell. The premise of Lost is that Hell is not an imaginary place where your suffering is limited only by the Devil’s imagination. Rather, Hell is a real, physical place, with predictable physical laws that are simply different from the laws in the normal world.
  • For example, in Hell you heal faster, so that you can be tortured more frequently.
  • Babies conceived there can’t be born there, because, of course, two condemned souls in Hell can’t make a baby together.
  • As you’d expect, one’s time in Hell is spent divided between being tortured and reliving the most regrettable parts of your life (as the "survivors" did in their flashbacks).
    • The Island used real time travel to accomplish this.

• The "survivors" (and Richard Alpert) were all "half-damned" or "only-sort-of-damned" people who all had in common that they were basically good people who had made a terrible mistake for which they never forgave themselves.
  • This half-good/half-damned quality of all the "candidates" is what made them specially able to accomplish what they accomplished, because they were just bad enough to be able to die and go to Hell, but still good enough to come together and sacrifice themselves in the way necessary for good ultimately to triumph.

• The DHARMA initiative consisted of real, living scientists who found a way to travel to Hell and back again, presumably without necessarily realizing where they were.
  • The army found the Island in the 1950s, the same time the army was doing other strange experiments outside of traditional science, such as experimenting with psychotropic drugs and with psychic powers.
  • The DHARMA initiative included such positions as psychologists, parapsychologists, neuroscientists, ex-military, and horticulturists (possibly to study the Island, but also possibly for their expertise in psychoactive drugs), combined with the drug expertise of Oldham (the DHARMA interrogator who questioned Sayid in "He's Our You") which are all indicative of the trippy, hippy "science" used to reach the Island. (See Octagon Global Recruiting)

• The Island is not Purgatory or Limbo.
  • Were it not for the interference of the DHARMA Initiative (and Jacob seizing the opportunity by bringing the "survivors"), nobody could ever have left the Island, and the "survivors" would have been stuck there for eternity.
  • This is western religion's Hell. Referenced in the creation-style story of "Across the Sea".
    • However, note that just because Hell and its rules are created by an omniscient being, doesn’t mean that Hell doesn’t have predictable physical laws.
    • People who believe that God created the world we live in also believe in, say, gravity and germs.

• The Island uses real time travel to cause the condemned to truly relive the worst, most regrettable experiences of their lives.
  • This is the real point of the flashbacks experienced by the "survivors."
    • OBJECTION: There is no evidence that the survivors were experiencing (or not experiencing) the flashbacks for themselves. They may have just been an explication tool for the implied audience.
    • REPLY: When Desmond has his flashbacks in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" and "The Constant" he is aware that he is traveling in time. This awareness is later explained by Desmond's unique resistance to electromagnetic energy. However, there is no reason to think that the other "survivors'" flashbacks were not also experienced by each of them.
  • This is, of course, exactly what you’d expect to happen in Hell, in between sessions of being tortured (as the "survivors" repeatedly were).
  • Because this process worked using physical laws, Desmond's unique resistance to the energy that caused the flashbacks enabled him to be conscious of his time traveling. ("Flashes Before Your Eyes"), and ("The Constant").
    • That's why Eloise was so disturbed when Desmond tried to alter the past during one of his flashbacks.
  • Because of the interference of the DHARMA Initiative (turning the key to trigger the fail-safe, turning the frozen wheel), the Time Travel effects of the Island were distorted, causing the island itself to move through time.

• Richard Alpert explicitly tells the "survivors" that they are not on an island, but they are in Hell, which he was told by the Man in Black. (See "Ab Aeterno").

• Michael explains that his soul was trapped on the Island after he died, and this is the source of the whispers the "survivors" hear from time to time.

• OBJECTION: This whole theory seems very silly, especially as Darlton have explicitly stated many times that it isn't Hell. Why would locke say "I've looked into the heart of the Island, and what I saw was beautiful" if it was hell? Some people enjoyed their time on the island. Sawyer and Juliet had the best time of their lives in the years they spent in the 70s.
  • Agreed. This seems like a half-cocked interpretation with a whole lot of assumptions and stretching of the truths. Just because there is something inexplicable in the world (i.e., the world of LOST), doesn't mean it needs more supernatural interpretation. Religion was created to explain unexplainable phenomenon, no need to apply metaphysical theory in this instance. Especially, since it's been explained on numerous occasions that THE ISLAND DOES NOT EQUAL DEAD. The beauty of a creation story (of any religion) is that you accept it as fact. There is no "what do you mean a talking snake ruined utopia?" "The sun and the moon can't talk to each other" "the world began by splitting a cosmic egg? really?" "dismembered giants? where are you going with this one?" "the earth gave birth to the sky? I wasn't aware it could DO that!" "man was formed in a giants armpit? what?" We don't question mythology-- if that's what you believe, that's what you believe. And that's what Jacob and his followers believed. Accept the mystical powers of the island as fact and move on.
  • REPLIES:
  • This disruption of Hell is the direct result of Hell having been interfered with by the DHARMA initiative, thus causing Sawyer and Juliet (who was still alive) to have a positive experience while with the still-living scientists.
  • The "survivors" were able to find beauty even in Hell because of their "only-sort-of-damned" status (see above).
  • Lindelof & Cuse have stated many times that the Island was not Purgatory, but this reporter is unable to find a reference to them saying that the Island is not Hell (PLEASE HELP VERIFY THIS).
    • OBJECTION: Pretty sure purgatory and hell can be quite interchangeable in this instance. The point of saying "the island is not hell" is to emphasize that the people on the island are not dead, and that the island is an actual place, wherein some of the worlds natural laws do not apply. Discussing semantics: The word "purgatory," derived through Anglo-Norman and Old French from the Latin word "purgatorium," has come to refer also to a wide range of historical and modern conceptions of postmortem suffering short of everlasting damnation [i.e, full out hell], and is used, in a non-specific sense, to mean any place or condition of suffering or torment, especially one that is temporary. In addition to accepting the states of heaven and hell, Catholicism envisages a third state before being admitted to heaven. According to Catholic doctrine, some souls are not sufficiently free from sin and its consequences to enter the state of heaven immediately, nor are they so sinful as to be destined for hell either. Such souls, ultimately destined to be united with God in heaven, must first endure purgatory—a state of purification. In purgatory, souls "achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." Purgatory is a cleansing that involves painful temporal punishment, associated with the idea of fire such as is associated with the idea of the eternal punishment of hell.
    • REPLY: That is precisely the point of this theory. The island is not purgatory. Ordinarily, nobody ever leaves the Island. The "survivors" would have been condemned to the Island for eternity. However, because the DHARMA Initiative visited the Island, this caused a sequence of events that allowed the "survivors" to leave the Island. They escaped from Hell itself.
  • Lindelof & Cuse have stated that "They're not dead"--but this could refer to Benjamin Linus, Juliet, and other people who were alive at the time.
  • Lindelof & Cuse have stated that they "do exist somewhere in the space time continuum," and the entire thrust of this theory is that Hell is a real place, somewhere in the space time continuum, and that is precisely what the show Lost is about.

I moved it again. See your talk.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:06, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Gaarmyvet. Technically, you did not move it again. You moved it for the first time. Last time you just deleted it entirely, right?

It sounds like you're saying that other people can post their chat on someone's theory, and if they do, then the entire theory gets taken down? That doesn't make a lot of sense, and I don't think you really mean that. Are you saying that I can go post some chat on someone else's theory, and their theory will also be removed? I think you know that this is not a workable rule.

I'll go ahead and take all the "chat" out of the theory, and move it to the talk page. It pain s me to remove other people's comments (even though those comments are critical of a theory that I support), but I'm happy to do so if you perceive the discussion of the theory as the problem. I also really, really think that you should consider reading other theories written by famous philosophers, because, since Descartes invented the method, they are ALWAYS presented by first presenting the theory, followed by objections and replies. It is the ONLY academically accepted way of presenting a philosophical theory in Western philosophy. I'm sorry that you do not approve of that method of presentation.--NYCDavid 19:16, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Listen, I'm really sorry that you're obviously upset about this. I hope you can appreciate how frustrating it is to me to have a legitimate theory deleted that has not been debunked, and which a lot of thought went into, and to have it deleted only because other people vandalized it. I would really appreciate any suggestion you might have about how to prevent people who don't like a theory from vandalizing it, and thereby getting the theory removed from Lostpedia, just because they don't like it or because it might be different from their own personal theories. I'm only asking to be treated reasonably and fairly, and I hope you can see that I am trying very hard to accommodate your concerns.

Here is what I intend to put in the theory section, with the "discussion" removed and accounted for in the body of the theory. If anyone has any other comments, please feel free to let me know, but please do not alter the language below: --NYCDavid 19:27, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

• Ultimately, Lost is the story of how the balance of Hell was upset when some still-living scientists (The DHARMA Initiative) found a way to travel to Hell to study it, and thereby nearly let loose the Devil himself upon the world, and how Jacob used the opportunity presented by this crisis to bring a special group of "half-damned" people (The Oceanic 815 "survivors") to the Island to destroy the Devil forever, instead.

• The Island is Hell, or it is an island in Hell. The premise of Lost is that Hell is not an imaginary place where your suffering is limited only by the Devil’s imagination. Rather, Hell is a real, physical place, with predictable physical laws that are simply different from the laws in the normal world.
  • For example, in Hell you heal faster, so that you can be tortured more frequently.
  • Babies conceived there can’t be born there, because, of course, two condemned souls in Hell can’t make a baby together.
  • As you’d expect, one’s time in Hell is spent divided between being tortured and reliving the most regrettable parts of your life (as the "survivors" did in their flashbacks).
    • The Island used real time travel to accomplish this.

• The "survivors" (and Richard Alpert) were all "half-damned" or "only-sort-of-damned" people who all had in common that they were basically good people who had made a terrible mistake for which they never forgave themselves.
  • This half-good/half-damned quality of all the "candidates" is what made them specially able to accomplish what they accomplished, because they were just bad enough to be able to die and go to Hell, but still good enough to come together and sacrifice themselves in the way necessary for good ultimately to triumph.

• The DHARMA initiative consisted of real, living scientists who found a way to travel to Hell and back again, presumably without necessarily realizing where they were.
  • The army found the Island in the 1950s, the same time the army was doing other strange experiments outside of traditional science, such as experimenting with psychotropic drugs and with psychic powers.
  • The DHARMA initiative included such positions as psychologists, parapsychologists, neuroscientists, ex-military, and horticulturists (possibly to study the Island, but also possibly for their expertise in psychoactive drugs), combined with the drug expertise of Oldham (the DHARMA interrogator who questioned Sayid in "He's Our You") which are all indicative of the trippy, hippy "science" used to reach the Island. (See Octagon Global Recruiting)

• The Island is not Purgatory or Limbo.
  • Were it not for the interference of the DHARMA Initiative (and Jacob seizing the opportunity by bringing the "survivors"), nobody could ever have left the Island, and the "survivors" would have been stuck there for eternity.
  • This is western religion's Hell. Referenced in the creation-style story of "Across the Sea".
    • However, note that just because Hell and its rules are created by an omniscient being, doesn’t mean that Hell doesn’t have predictable physical laws.
    • People who believe that God created the world we live in also believe in, say, gravity and germs.
  • Lindelof & Cuse have stated many times that the Island was not Purgatory, but do not seem to be any references to them saying that the Island is not Hell.
  • Lindelof & Cuse have stated that "They're not dead"--but this could refer to Benjamin Linus, Juliet, and other people who were alive at the time.
  • Lindelof & Cuse have stated that they "do exist somewhere in the space time continuum," and the entire thrust of this theory is that Hell is a real place, somewhere in the space time continuum, and that this is precisely what the show Lost is about.

• The Island uses real time travel to cause the condemned to truly relive the worst, most regrettable experiences of their lives.
  • This is the real point of the flashbacks experienced by the "survivors."
    • When Desmond has his flashbacks in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" and "The Constant" he is aware that he is traveling in time. This awareness is later explained by Desmond's unique resistance to electromagnetic energy. However, there is no reason to think that the other "survivors'" flashbacks were not also experienced by each of them.
  • This is, of course, exactly what you’d expect to happen in Hell, in between sessions of being tortured (as the "survivors" repeatedly were).
  • Because this process worked using physical laws, Desmond's unique resistance to the energy that caused the flashbacks enabled him to be conscious of his time traveling. ("Flashes Before Your Eyes"), and ("The Constant").
    • That's why Eloise was so disturbed when Desmond tried to alter the past during one of his flashbacks.
  • Because of the interference of the DHARMA Initiative (turning the key to trigger the fail-safe, turning the frozen wheel), the Time Travel effects of the Island were distorted, causing the island itself to move through time.

• Characters describe the Island as Hell

• Richard Alpert explicitly tells the "survivors" that they are not on an island, but they are in Hell, which he was told by the Man in Black. (See "Ab Aeterno").
• Michael explains that his soul was trapped on the Island after he died, and this is the source of the whispers the "survivors" hear from time to time.
• While some characters refer to the Island as "beautiful" and have positive experiences on the Island, this disruption of Hell is the direct result of Hell having been interfered with by the DHARMA initiative, thus causing Sawyer and Juliet (who was still alive) to have a positive experience while with the still-living scientists.

Plainly, all the discussion has been removed from the theory, and yet the objections raised by others are still all discussed and accounted for. This seems to meet your requirements, right? So, I'm going to go ahead and repost that, assuming there is no objection, okay? --NYCDavid 19:27, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Questions Edit

I believe the questions in the section titled "But what about..." should be moved to the pages of those respective topics. They have nothing to do with this particular episode.--Wraithdart 18:32, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Flight 815 v Ajira flying over Bamboo Grove in the end Edit

The Ajira flight left Hydra Island as the ground started collapsing. The flight was accelerating and was moving 150 mph at liftoff. Even at that relatively low speed, the Ajira flight would have reached the island little more than just a minute later. Using a best case scenario for the Ajira flight, if Jack upon the Ajira liftoff had (1) plugged the leak (thus stopping the quaking and collapse of the island); (2) Jack was floated/ejected/removed from the cave over some indefinite period of time to come to rest on a shore; and (3) Jack got up and staggered through the jungle to come to rest in the Bamboo Grove finally lying down face upward; then the Ajira plane would have been long gone and far away. As has often been noted, the sound of the jet between scenes was not the sound of the Ajira plane. The Ajira flight can therefore be ruled out. While it doesn't necessarily follow that the only remaining option would be Flight 815 flying overhead, it would certainly be an appropriate circular ending.

Threemilliontoone 13:12, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Your reasoning is absurd. You prove one option unlikely, so you choose one that's completely impossible.

Flight 815 crashed. Years earlier. That's the premise of the entire series.

Why did 316 take so long to pass over the grove? Maybe Frank turned around to face north so they'd head toward land. Or he wanted to catch a trade wind. Or maybe the Heart even sent Jack a few minutes back in time - teleportation always otherwise involves time travel.

But no, Flight 815 didn't magically resurrect and pass over Jack. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 13:19, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Flight 815 did indeed crash at the beginning of the series. But we also know that it didn't crash in the altiverse. So there's at least one example of Flight 815 continuing. And there has been much time traveling going on and we can't know for sure by this point exactly when all this is happening. Moreover, the nuke detonating in the electromagnetic flux could have accomplished any result. Certainly that much is validated by the side-by-sides. Jack and the others could have been transported equally well to the period in time prior to the original Flight 815 passing over the island. That would complete the hooking up of both altiverses, as well as explain a great many things while raising a great many questions - one of the continuing themes of Lost. One would hope that one of the lessons gained from viewing Lost would be that there is little place for absolute certainty about this or that event. In the Lost multiverse there is no certainty at all about cause and effect. We don't even know that the "reality" of Jack fighting Smoky at the end is located in OUR universe. Both altiverses could have been anomalies outside our universe. Note that by no means am I claiming certainty that it was Flight 815 above Jack, but it's certainly at least as plausible as the Heart sending Jack a few minutes back in time just to have him see the Ajira flight. Threemilliontoone 13:45, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we can't be sure exactly when the final scene took place. We know, however, it didn't happen on September 22nd 2004. If it did, Vincent would not be there. The weathered tennis shoe would not be there. Or the grove in "Pilot, Part 1" would contain both (and Jack's dead duplicate body).

Projecting a multiverse on to Lost explains nothing, let alone "a great many things". Lost has no "multiverse". It takes place in a different universe from ours only insofar as all fictional works do. Flight 815 did not land safely in an alternate universe from Lost's main one. Rather, the survivors pictured it landing safely through their shared imagination after death. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 14:02, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

When you claim that Lost has no multiverse and that the survivors pictured Flight 815 landing safely through their shared imagination after death, you're missing that the most likely result of the nuke going off would have been the instant vaporization of Jack and everyone else present - which apparently didn't happen. If you are contending that their shared imagination after death occurred at the point of nuclear detonation, your points are invalid. For if that were the case, BOTH the return to the future Island as well as the sideways flash would have been part of their shared imagination which could have included both the well-weathered shoe as well as Vincent. However, NEITHER the continuation of the flight to land in L.A. nor the "return" of Jack and others to some future point to duke it out with Smoky are likely scenarios at all in the wake of the nuclear explosion. Nor is any other. Therefore, if you're positing that their collected imagination arose from their "return" forward to "our" time, you need to explain the basis of that. If you can't do so logically, then you must abandon the certainty that you claim for the succession of events in either side. Rose (in their collective imagination?) at least was smart enough to lack certainty and to observe that she didn't know what time they were in. You should be, too. Threemilliontoone 14:38, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

The nuke did not kill them. It may or may not have even detonated. The flash in "The Incident, Part 2" sent the survivors to 2007. This saved them from the blast, if the blast even occurred. The survivors didn't create the flash sideways when the core detonated or when they traveled to the present. They created them when they died.

An encyclopedia must not adopt the position that "nothing is certain; anything is possible". It must say "many things are certain; beyond that, some things are possible". We should be debating this, if at all, on the theory discussion page, not the article discussion page. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 14:51, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Your statement that the flash in "The Incident, Part 2" sent the survivors to 2007" is indicative of the difficulty. We do not know for a fact that the survivors went to 2007. That's a surmise, not an established fact. "The flash" could have sent them anywhere and could have sent them to multiple realities in multiple times with multiple scenarios - some of which may not have even been depicted. Your statement that an encyclopedia must say "many things are certain; beyond that, 'some' things are possible" is a non sequitur for you. That Flight 815 is what Jack saw at the end is something that IS possible. And for the points I initially discussed above, the notion that the Ajira flight was anywhere near Jack when he finally laid himself to rest could at best fall into the category of "some" things that are possible. There was no certainty at all that Ajira was the flight that Jack saw. Indeed, seeing the flight of the alternate surviving Flight 815 makes tremendous sense in that Jack seeing it would be the intersection of the two realities, leading Jack into the afterlife. For all we know, this could be a vision Jack saw as he died. Again, the possibilities are many, varied and interesting. To baldly state that what Jack saw was "not Flight 815" requires evidence that you do not have and which in a story of imagination can never be proved. Threemilliontoone 15:58, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

We do know they went to 2007. They appeared a few hours after Jacob died. ("LA X, Part 1") Jacob died three years after the island moved. ("Follow the Leader") The Island moved in December, 2004. ("The Constant")

We can validly conclude that the plane was Flight 316 because 316 took off from Hydra Island just minutes before. To suggest otherwise suggests a random, unexplained appearance of a different plane. It could not have been Flight 815. If the scene took place in 2007, Flight 815 wouldn't be there because it crashed in 2004. The scene could not have taken place in 2004 because Jack's body was not in "Pilot, Part 1". The plane was not a vision of the flash sideways 815 because in the flash sideways, the island was underwater.--- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 17:07, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Balk, I think Threemilliontoone is on to something here.

First, what do we know for sure? We know thru episode titles (Man of Science, Man of Faith), dialog, and incidently, several religious symbols in a church window that Lost has connections to religious concepts. Second, we know that Hindu theology is connected to the multiverse concept (see The_End/Theories). It's not something that anyone projected onto Lost, it's there. That means he's applying Hinduistic metaphysics, much as you are applying Newtonian physics (turning, speed, etc.) to arrive at your respective theories. So should we only use Newtonian physics to explain everything in Lost or should we consider other possibilities? I think you'd have a hard time explaining how black smoke grabs people and hurls them through the air with Newtonian physics. Essentially, you two are playing out the very debate Lost put forth.

Yes, the Ajira theory is the most obvious, but I can perceive how the other theory works under Hindu metaphysics. First, consider that as Jack moves through the bamboo toward the beach, we see his injuries and blood in varied orientations on his face. This suggests that we are observing multiple (not limited to 2) distinct images of Jack which can be explained by Hindu multiverse theology. Under this scenario it's possible that 815 is flying overhead because we are viewing another reality where Jack's efforts not only save the island but prevent this reality's 815 from crashing (BTW, in case you're thinking 815's arrival at the island is off, just remember in another reality anything's possible and nothing's irreversible)

So, who should decide if Newtonian physics or Hindu metaphysics is at work here? (Balk, seems like ol' times, huh?) If the canon part of this site is to remain neutral, then I think you'd have to include both jet names or no names to be even more careful.

Personally, I like the 815 theory because it makes for a great ending, but then I'm a bit crazier than most.BlindedByTheLight 20:32, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why the above discussion was moved to the The_End/Theories talk page because it has nothing to do with argumentation about theories on The_End/Theories per se. It's about the neutrality or lack thereof, regarding the language being used on The_End.BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Blinded, you don't even believe in time travel. Clearly your opinion is invalid.

But now that I've got you here, I should tell you I've been following your updates to the Eternal Recurrence theory since we last argued. Not as closely as it deserves, but occasionally. Though it's not going to convince me, it's by far the most detailed (best?) theory on the site. It's pretty much the main reason I'm trying to retain theory page links following the new look transition.

Now back to the plane. I'm not trying to apply "Newtonian physics" or any other external school of thought. I'll just apply whatever rules Lost presented. I also won't apply a school of thought simply because Lost references it or offered corresponding symbols. Lost did this for many philosophies and religion, including conflicting ones, so allusions don't prove one validity. Finally, I'm not going to apply one belief because another fails. If science fails to explain the monster, than doesn't validate another option that also fails to explain things.

I could talk about the general weirdness of thinking Jack went to an alternate universe - a third universe besides the actual one and the flash sideways - but I'll just offer one piece of evidence. The shoe. When the island sends people through space and time, isolated objects on it stay still. The shoe was still in the bamboo. So Jack was on the same island where 815 had crashed years before. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 21:51, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying one interpretation is more valid than the other. You are doing that by saying the plane was the Ajira flight. I'm saying each could be equally valid, and Threemilliontoone proves that others hold that interpretation as well. As long as you insist on your interpretation you are hurting the veracity of the canon section in other's eyes. It's really not about who's interpretation is correct, but rather staying neutral. Is it really worth hurting canonisity (is that a word?) when all you have to do is drop one word? You just might be wrong, consider the possibilities.BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Well I am saying one interpretation is more valid than the other. Because it is. There's nothing noble in saying "all interpretations are valid". Most aren't. The dog in the last scene was Vincent, not the smoke monster reincarnated. The shoe was Christian's, not one of Paulo's that alt-Nikki through in a alt-tree. The plane was Ajira 316.

A plane takes off from the Hydra runway. A few minutes later, we see a plane fly over the grove.

Conclusion #1: They're the same plane.

Conclusion #2: Jack, Vincent, the tennis shoe and the whole island all teleport into a new alternate universe. A wonderful new alternate reality where the candidates never come to the island, the brothers' rivalry never resolves, none of the characters ever meet and nothing in the show meant anything. Hurley and Ben don't notice this and instead later traveled to the normal Los Angeles, but that's presumably because they're not very observant. The show had revealed minutes earlier that it didn't create a separate universe, the explicit message of the finale and the epilogue was "there are no do-overs", the producers refused use the word alternate universe even back when the show proposed it as a solution... but sure. Brand new universe, separate from the real one or the flash sideways, after the finale's big reveal, in the show's last five seconds. This is just as valid as assuming Ajira 316 turned around for a bit.

I could add that the episode's script says "the plane clears frame, finally free of the Island", proving that it had once BEEN on the island, but I shouldn't need to. The scene speaks for itself. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 22:50, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

So, you're saying, "one interpretation is more valid than the other". That's interesting because according to the free online dictionary "interpret" is defined as follows:

"to explain the meaning of."

From the same source, theory is defined as:

"A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena.."

Looks like "interpret" and "theory" mean nearly the same thing. So how is it that interpretation goes on the canon page, but theory is confined to the theory page? - BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Here's the difference.

To some extent, everything we see in Lost is an interpretation. In the final scene we see Matthew Fox playing a character. One interpretation is that this is Jack, the only character he has played so far on the show. An additional interpretation is that the source transported him slightly through time as it teleported him. A separate interpretation is that this is not Jack at all but a new character that the show introduced at the very end.

The first of these interpretations follows logically and directly from what we have seen. We include it in the article. The second is a theory we cannot easily prove or disprove. We allow it on the theory page. All evidence points away from the third. We will not even allow it a place on the theory page. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:37, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there is nothing noble in saying all interpretations are valid, but how can you discriminate between them if you mis-interpret the interpretations? The evidence I presented had nothing to do with "alternate" universes. That is an entirely different concept from multiverses. Alternate implies separate or distinct and possibly happening in turns. The realities in multiverse theory bleed into the others (sound familiar?) and are happening all at the same time. Yes, it all happened, and the multiverse is entirely consistent with that. So everything you said in "Conclusion #2" is simply non-applicable.

Just to be clear how this works, it's important to realize that similar events don't necessarily happen at the same time either. So in one reality, the plane crashes, then later in another reality the plane arrives and doesn't. In one reality Jack sees the tennis shoe, in another or same reality he lies on the beach, and in another reality we see 815 fly overhead. That's just one possible scenario. It's a writer's dream come true, because, well, anything's possible. - BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Let's not use the term "alternate universes". Let's call them "parallel universes". Or the "multiverse". Or the "omniverse". The only point I argued is that you suggest multiple universes, a concept that, as of 1:43:30 into the finale, did not exist in Lost. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:43, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Well Balk, let's see how you're doing so far. You said the phrase "Ajira plane" was your "interpretation". That means, in your own words, you're putting an interpretation or theory on a canon page. - BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

In that saying "turns his head to see Vincent" rather than "turns his head to see a dog" is an interpretation. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:45, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Second, you've totally mis-understood the theory of multiverse and mis-represented what I've said. - BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

No. You assume that when I say "alternate universes" I refer to a distinct theory from that of the multiverse. I actually argue equally against both. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:46, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Finally, the quote you provided from the script says simply, "the plane". Isn't that canon? Isn't that what I suggested? So now you're totally ignoring canon material? - BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

The canonical quote says "the plane clears frame, finally free of the island." That means the plane had been on the island. This plane was not a version of Oceanic 815 that flew over the island without crashing. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:48, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Well, don't worry about it too much, because, well you know, nothing is irreversible. - BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

According to the finale, everything is irreversible. But you can repair things, though you can't reverse their existence altogether. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:50, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

BTW, even mistakes have an upside because Threemilliontoone gave me this 815 insight. Probably would've missed it except I noticed all those reverse edits. Can't believe I totally missed it. Duh!? It settles the whole fate vs. freewill debate.

Remember how this started in Flashes Before Your Eyes? Eloise tries to save the red shoe man, succeeds, but the hand of fate always steps in, undoing her efforts and the man dies. The 815 plane crash represents the same sort of scenario. The plane crashes, our heroes hatch a plot to undo it, and we see them succeed in the FST as the plane flies over the sunken island onto LAX. So this is like Eloise saving the red shoe man. They succeeded like her, but the question is: will the change persist or will the hand of fate step in once again and undo their efforts? The question is answered when we see 815 soaring at the end. Freewill triumphed. Cool. How could people not love The End? Oh, guess they missed it, like me.BlindedByTheLight 02:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

No, they are completely different.

Eloise, the red shoes man and course correction concern what ought happen. Changing the past concerns what did happen. It's the difference, for instance, between the writers in 2009 debating whether Jack must die in the finale and their debating whether he ought die in the premiere. You can shape the future. It hasn't happen yet. Course-correction states that you can change things from the fate's script, but fate will insert additional changes. You can't change the past. It already happened. "Whatever happened, happened" states that you can change NOTHING. Fate won't intervene and revert events; events never changed at all. A failure to change the past no more contradicts free will than a failure to walk on water.

Maybe I need to reread your theory again, but are you suggesting that the FS plane flew living people over a sunken island. That the characters did not instead create the flash sideways world upon dying? If so, you understand that we're not going to reference that belief in the article. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 02:58, October 9, 2010 (UTC)