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Here We Go

Ladies and gentlemen, the end of our beloved show has come. First order of business: We should use a bit different wording than "121.5" to represent the fact that the episode is 2.5 hours long. ShadowUltra 03:03, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

And I have to work that Sunday evening.--Pittsburghmuggle 06:51, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
I agree, it's a little awkward to refer to it as "121.5". Plus, the DVD apparently will have an additional 20 minutes of deleted footage added back in. So that is around three blocks of 40 minute episosdes on the DVD version. We may as well refer to it as hour #122. And just to say, why is the season nav stating this as just "#17"? We decided to split all the other finales and double episodes up on the nav at the start of this season, even episodes like "Live Together, Die Alone" which were titled as just LTDA by ABC, with no "part 1" or "part 2" added to the end. We have constantly been told that this season will contain 18 "episodes" (hours = episodes) and now we refer to it as just episode 17? I'm not sure how ABC had named the episode yet, but shouldn't we try to be consistent here?--Baker1000 19:37, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
I think the 20 extra minutes makes it clear they filmed three episodes worth of content, so for simplicity's sake let's count it as three. And I'm assuming the extra 20 minutes will be canon, since they'll be worked back into the finale instead of set aside as "deleted scenes". --Golden Monkey 19:43, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply They filmed two episodes worth of content. They couldn't cut it down to two episodes worth of airtime (~85 minutes) so they asked ABC for an extension. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 00:30, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
I think its clear they filmed three episodes worth of content, early on they were able to get an extra hour from ABC (S6 was originally to have 17 not 18 hours) then they probably asked for one more hour but it was too late or ABC couldnt fit it in, w/e. If on the dvd the extra 20 minutes is worked into the episode and not on a bonus disc then it should be three seperate parts. I think its meant to be cannon just due to ABC restrictions it couldnt air as one. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  05:35, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Do we know for certain that the 23 minutes of Deleted scenes announced for the DVD are not the same 23 minutes that were added to the finale?MKLNK 15:53, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that theres a chance we'll see some more characters in it that got cut, so how would be work on that. Say Libby and Penny who had no lines in the final, appear in the dvd cut scenes with lines, how would be work around that. Same for Walt. We just dont know. If you add the cut scenes to the final, doesn't that mean theres technically a 19th hour. Buffyfan123

Length

According to ABC, out of this episode's running time the show will have 50 minutes of commercials and 100 minutes of...well, show. The two parts will be 50 minutes each. So that's 20 some extra minutes to each finale. [1] Golden Monkey 03:43, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

In Israel the finale was broadcast without commercial breaks. Episode 17 was 53 minutes and episode 18 was 48 minutes. --Laminar 06:12, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

They should have stretched it out another few minutes, the running time would have been 108:00. That would have been awesome! --PunkFloyd 03:51, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Press Release linked to on page

Is not the episodic press release with guest cast and short 1-sentence description. It's not posted yet, but when it is the link needs to be changed. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 00:30, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Was Christian Shepard really dead?

At the end when Jack opens his father's casket, its empty and Jack turns around to meet his father, was his death staged, and thats why the coffin was missing from the plane to start with? Or has something else bought him back to life?-- Nzoomed  talk  contributions  21:31, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

They're all dead and in the afterlife, in a reality created by their shared consciousnesss -random2502 22:15, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
is that seroiusly the case? I thought the writers of LOST made it clear that was not the case that they were in purgatory or dead. -- Nzoomed  talk  contributions  08:32, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

The writers et al made it clear that the ISLAND people were not in purgatory or dead...they never said anything about the *afterlife* people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Karelj (talkcontribs) 2010-06-01T08:57:40.

Day for Night?

The fight scene between Jack and MiB looked like it was filmed Day for Night, where you film in the daylight and then darken the tone to make it look dark (or stormy, in this case). Lots of sun glints off the water on them.--Pittsburghmuggle 03:49, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I think that was to reinforce the idea that the island was falling apart, the light was out, etc. It was probably also connected to the fact that it was supposed to be dark, cloudy, rainy, so on. --FiremanV2 04:53, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Jack Bender said in an interview that scene was filmed at about 5:30 in the morning. Looks appropriate enough to me.--HaloOfTheSun 05:28, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Centricity

I'd go with none. Amazing finale BTW. I'll miss you, Lost. (Kdc2 03:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC))

Pictogram voting oppose Obviously various. If something has flashes from multiple characters with a central one, we always count it as various; none is for episodes without any flashes or central character(s). This is no more non-centric than Exodus or There's No Place Like Home. I'd vote for at least Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, Locke, Claire, Ben, Desmond and Miles (he didn't have much focus, but the scene where he spotted Sayid was from his pov). Probably others-Sun & Jin, Sayid, maybe even Charlotte. --Golden Monkey 03:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Various or everyone who "remembered" since the flashes were not organized as usual, Id say we should go with when a character remembers because it shows clear focus. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
How about..."everyone"? Because in the end no character was the focus of this episode. Not even certain groups of characters were the focus. Everyone was the focus. The story of Lost was the story of all of these characters and all of them deserve the centricity. ShadowUltra 04:02, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Various.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
everyone will disagree with me, and i don't think it'll matter but i have to put in my input (lol), Centricity: Jack Bassrockindrew 05:49, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Not only did the episode end with Jack closing his eye, emphasizing his obvious importance, most of the actual plot development in the finale centered around Jack (e.g. Jack was the last to remember and everyone was in the church waiting for his arrival, more or less). --Flyglue 06:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support with Jack. The flashes and "near-centricity" applies to most everyone (Locke, Sawyer, Kate, maybe Desmond), but the episode begins and ends with Jack and reveals that almost the whole series is "Jack-centric." Just like the first episode was centered on Jack, the last episode is, as well.--Tim Thomason 06:10, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose I don't think it's Jack centric. I'd go with various, meaning everyone that has a flash-sideways (Kate, Miles, Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Ben, Hurley, Desmond and Claire) and everyone that has a series of flash-backs when they remember their lives (Jin, Sun, Sayid, Shannon, Charlie, Claire, Kate, Locke, Juliet, Sawyer and Jack).  Bringlibbyandcharlieback  Talk   Contribs 08:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose Wayyyy too many flashes from the POV of people who weren't Jack to be primarily Jack-centric. Though he was the focus of the Island storyline and the last flash-sideways. --Golden Monkey 12:32, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I mean everyone had some sort of flash and focus even dead people, Its hard to really say who got what. Maybe we should just give everyone who appeared in the final a credit. Buffyfan123 10:50, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • In my opinion the characters who should get centricity credit are Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, Hurley, Claire, Charlie, Locke, Jin, Sun, Sayid, Shannon, Desmond, Ben and Miles.  Bringlibbyandcharlieback  Talk   Contribs 14:18, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Various. (JohnQPoster 15:19, May 24, 2010 (UTC))

  • I think that this episode focuses on a lot of people. Not just Jack, or other main characters, but also dead people like Sun, Jin, Sayid, Juliet, Charlotte, Daniel, Charlie, Shannon, Locke and Boone. I also think the final moments of the series center on everyone at the church (inluding Libby, Penny, Rose, Bernard and Aaron). I'd even say that Eloise should get mentioned, just like Daniel and the other dead people, even though Eloise isn't dead yet.--NK-Metaltalkcontributions 09:14, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

John Pyper-Ferguson

Who the heck did he play? I remember his name in the credits (mainly because I was trying to remember what he had been in that I'd seen-it was Caprica, by the way) but there weren't really any prominent guest characters in the flash-sideways and none on the Island. So...who was he? --Golden Monkey 04:02, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

He played the Oceanic Delivery man who delivered Christian's coffin to the church. --User:Sdegelia 11:05, May 23, 2010

Thank you. --Golden Monkey 04:18, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Removed

"The final episode of lost sucked. It turns out that they are all dead. The end." This is, in my opinion, 100% accurate. But it's not supposed to be on a wiki. --Golden Monkey 04:18, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone has to die eventually. Even Ricardus, perhaps. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 04:35, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
They weren't always dead. Whenever it is they died -- they went to the alt. (Kdc2 04:47, May 24, 2010 (UTC))
Oh, I see... you really sure about that? Because, I'm just like "What the hell happened here?" --FiremanV2 04:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Think about what Christian said. He said everybody died...some in the past, some in the future. For example, Hurley might have lived another 500 years as the new Jacob, but EVENTUALLY he did die. Hence why he told Ben he was a good #2. --RebbySc 05:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
So when we all die we all go to LA? (Good, I've never been there before!) What about baby Aaron? Does this mean he comes back as an infant? Or is this all some weird Jack fantasy?--Pittsburghmuggle 06:30, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
No, whenever it is we die, we reunite with all the people that we needed to connect with at the most important time in our lives, in a place we collectively create for that purpose. For the survivors that were in the church, that place was the flash-sideways version of LA and the people were the other people in the church. Note that some people were not present (Michael, Walt, David...); for these people the island was not the most important time in their lives, and those people were not the central people in their lives. It might also be argued that some people who might have been there were either not redeemed (e.g., Michael) or not yet ready to move on (e.g., Ben) but that's open to interpretation DrFrylock 06:50, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
It was pretty clear to me that Christian was the only one who departed directly from the church to the afterlife. Christian's conversation with Jack in the anteroom wasn't about Jack being dead in the flash-sideways, it was about Jack being dead in the Island timeline. Jack and the other Losties arrived at the church pretty promptly after the concert. They're not all going to depart for the afterlife directly from the church; they're going to leave the church and live the rest of their lives (not so long, in poor Rose's case), all enriched by the shared experience. David is hardly going to be abandoned by Jack, Claire and Juliet... Spikebrennan 12:57, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • No, it turned out that after they all died, they had to examine their time on the island. The events of the show were real and they were very much alive for them. How is the idea that they are in purgatory more unsatisfying than the idea that they were in an alternate universe?TheTaoOfLocke 06:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • The important part is NOT whether they are dead or not (everybody died - in the past and the future). The important part is the time they spent with all the other people and that they remember. This episode and some other episodes earlier where a lot about remembering.--Akege 09:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • WTF ! The creators always said that the characters were not dead were not in purgatory! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Black Jack Scarron (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T04:48:18.
    • They said the real timeline characters weren't. Flash-sideways, anything goes.--Pittsburghmuggle 11:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Of course not. The flash-sideways timeline was Limbo, which is a very different place from Purgatory. ;-) -- Llywrch 21:37, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The ending was lazy writing. We were promised answers to long standing questions, instead we got sapppy text book happy ending wrapped in a dirty trick. No serious questions were answered. In fact, the promise to end it so follow on projects weren't possible was completely wrong. Personally, I feel so betrayed by the ending that I've changed my mind about buying the complete dvd edition. Xepol 2010-05-24 19:49 (UTC)

    • We were promised answers? I thought we were just promised a conclusion. --Pluvia 00:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
      • We were never promised answers. Darlton frequently said 'we are not going to explain everything'. That's the opposite of promising answers. --Integrated (User / Talk) 11:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • From what I can see, all the major questions were answered. There are some minor things,like the Hurley Bird and the outrigger chase, but the fact that there are still mysteries adds to the allure of the show. -- Noisewater
  • That is absurd. Really none of the major questions were answered. Whether they should have been answered or not is another matter, and I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this - but what about - what is the Island? Why does it have this EM force, who built the plug at the source and why and how, who built the statue, the Lighthouse, the emples etc, why did Smokey behave as he did, why was Mother wrong about entering the source - except in the case of the NiB, how did J bring ppl to the Island, how did J leave the Island, why was DHARMA, the Hbomb ppl etc tolerated, how did Ben come and go and appear in Syria (or where ever it was), how did J give agelessness, why did Richard help murderers, how does the Island move in time and in space, how is that to do with the "frozen" wheel, what is the deal with the numbers, how cld J come back as a ghost and pass on the care of the Island. Maybe I missed something? Aren't these sorta important, they are not like who was shooting who on the outrigger mystery, these are whole of series issues. Some might have partial answers and I can make up my own answers but really almost none of this was addressed.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   18:02, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • To answer your questions by what is implied by the show:

-it's an Island -it's a special island -Egyptians, to control the energy, from stone. -Egyptians -Egyptians -Egyptians -because he was angry about not being able to leave -she was not wrong? -by subtly effecting their lives -frozen donkey wheel or boat. -DHARMA was probably something the MIB started, to further investigations on the island, just like 'his' people used to do. -Frozen donkey wheel -magic -what murderers? -magic -the frozen donkey wheel controlled the magic energy -the numbers were a JJ Abrams gimic -because Jacob is special, with magic

No, these questions are unimportant, it is OK that we know as much about the Island as the characters in the show, and it is OK to assume things. How would you've like them to explain the mysteries? Would you like an episode about Egyptians building everything? Maybe there where some Egyptians who also had the gift to build things, like MIB had. It is all possible, so use your imagination. Think about it, you don't really want a midi-chlorian-explanation. --Rikdewinter 22:40, May 25, 2010 (UTC)--

  • Egyptians? What Egyptians? When was ever Egypt or Egyptians mentioned in the show? Just because you saw some hieroglyphs you assume there were Egyptians there, but since we were given NO answers to any of this, we can just as well assume that the island was a alien spaceship, that there was nothing “special” about it, just the effects of an ruptured alien reactor that was plugged by that rock/cork. See, you are just speculating when you mention Egyptians, and now, since there will be no further answers coming, your theories and speculations are as good as mine Ncaminada 14:44, May 26, 2010 (UTC).
       *Egyptians were referred to by Darlton in the podcast. In fact they let slip in the final podcast that it was in fact Egyptians who built the statue.  As the Island has the ability to move I am guessing it was in the Mediterranean at one  point which is how Egyptians and Romans got there.--Captain Gault 17:53, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
  • It seems many people are dissatisfied with the finale or felt that "it sucked" because it "didn't answer all my questions", but if you truly followed along (with help of this site or other resources) or go back and rewatch the series with the knowledge of the conclusion in mind, you will find that everything for the most part can be explained with the "answers" and previous information provided. Just because you can't decipher or forgotten the clues doesn't mean explanations weren't provided. I wonder if people aren't just frustrated because they weren't spoonfed detail-for-detail every answer and backstory to everything in the "Lost" universe. But the show has always been respectful of (and relied upon) the audience's intelligence, patience, thoughtfulness and ability to infer and follow along and fill in the blanks. I was somewhat confused and bemused after my initial viewing of the finale; but after watching it again (as I have had to do repeatedly with every episode in this series), armed with all the answer we were to be been given, I was able to thoroughly enjoy it as the beautiful, apropos conclusion that it was. The beauty part of not explaining every minutiae of detail of the story is that it allows you to continue to enjoy it multiple times as you mine it, interpret it, continue to discuss it with other "Lost" fanatics--rather like other classic myths, allegories, philosophical and religious texts. I never hear many Star Wars fans complain that the Star Wars Series never explained how humanoid characters evolved in the Star Wars universe... What far, far away galaxy did the story take place in?... Why didn't Lucas tell me what Yoda's farts smell like?--TatsX 19:51, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
No, I'm fine with a bit of mystery remaining after the end. A show like this is going to go down some paths early on that it can't go back and retrace, and expecting final answers to questions like "What are the numbers?" really miss the point. A more likely reason is that people think it sucked because it didn't match their expectations, and I'm certainly guilty of that. I wanted the flash-sideways to be re-integrated with the rest of what happened, and done in a cool and clever way that avoided the sort of problems that would otherwise entail. I can't help that it doesn't match what I wanted to happen, but I can deal with that, too.
I think it sucked because it made a very strong cause-and-effect implication (namely that Jughead caused an alternate and generally better reality), spent a whole season drawing it out, and then tossed it all away. I think it sucked because - again, for the whole season - that implied some eventual catharsis from the cemetery's worth of unhappy, unlucky, and poignant deaths from Boone to Sun. ("But on their deathbed, they received total consciousness" is insufficient.)
I think it sucked because it revealed that most of the character's deaths were orchestrated by the MIB, thereby making most of the show a hunt for a serial killer that we couldn't even recognize until the last few episodes. And that made much of the series effectively into torture porn, where the writers kill off characters in the most unpleasant ways they can manage, without any concern later about what the deaths really meant. (And/or that the writers killed off characters not because it was NECESSARY for the story, but because it was more CONVENIENT. ) When the possible explanations for Why What Happened, Happened keep pulling you outside of the story - and there's no attempt by the creators/producers/writers to pull back - then It Sucked is a reasonable summary of the situation. RanxeroxVox 04:54, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
  • The Star Wars comparaison is the worst I can imagine. All of lost is about mystery and suspense, Star Wars is about a Science-fiction aventure that transports you in a imaginative land. What is fun about Star Wars has never been resolving mysteries, it is only about having some fun, touching imagination and taking a break from the reality. It is NOT the case in lost. Lost is about building on a very long time a very complicated intrigue. Everything revolving around the characters help build up a greater intrigue. People keep watching it only to have answers. Without any suspense, Lost has no reason to exist. What happened in this finale feels the exact same as if the whole story was a character's dream, which i find rather insulting towards people who have been spending 6 years of their lives watching very carefully every episode of the show. Any regular writer could only add, add and add suspense to build a very big intrigue leading to absolutely no logic conclusion, or even worse (in this case) no conclusion at all. I loved Lost a lot, and now I hate absolutely all of it--Julienhd 03:15, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Image

Running vote tally after eliminating duplicate votes

Church = 22 (39%)

Eye = 35 (61%)

6x17TheEnd

1(current)

MovingOn6x17

2

6x17 Church

3


Pictogram voting support The image for this episode absolutely needs to be the shot of all of them sitting in the church with Christian walking out. I can't think of a better shot to illustrate this episode.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:09, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support Agreed. The shot of Jack's eye closing is somewhat powerful, and should be included somewhere in the article, but it doesn't, in my opinion, represent the majority of the episode. --LeoChris 05:14, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose I like the eye closed, but am open to other ideas. Don't like the church one, though. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 05:16, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting supportI also like the church with Christian walking out. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
  • Perhaps have the image be of the plane flying overhead? It is the "departure" from the island, one of the final shots, and a fitting farewell image. --SilentSpy 06:05, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting opposeI think the eye closing is perfect. The Pilot opened with Jack opening his eye and The End closed with Jack closing his eye in the same place.--Crazyoldben 06:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Jack's eye closing is perfect. We came full circle. :) --Phryrosebdeco23 06:43, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Don't we set the image up to match centricity? An image like the church would match up nicely, but I agree wholeheartedly that the eye needs to be SOMEWHERE in the article, just not the main image. --Exer 505 07:25, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting supportI think everyone in the church is perfect, as Christian said, everyone in that church was important and they're all just as main as Jack is.  Bringlibbyandcharlieback  Talk   Contribs 08:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Full Circle all right, we came not knowing what has happening and we left the same too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Black Jack Scarron (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T04:50:44.
  • Pictogram voting oppose The eye is far more defining of the final episode than anything else imo. --Zenero 13:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting opposeI think the eye should be added, can we also update the pilot with Jacks eye it would be much better. Buffyfan123 13:35, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The eye only shows "The End" for Jack. The church shows "The End" for the main characters in general. While the closed eye is important, I don't think it represents very much of the episode. -- Deltaneos (talk) 14:30, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Need a good shot of the church gathering & Christian. The eye can be incorporated elsewhere (as it should) but not as the main image. Hatchbanger 18:05, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support I put up an image of the church -- but it's low quality, as I'm not that great with editing images. If someone could clean it up that'd be great.(Kdc2 19:27, May 24, 2010 (UTC))

I took your image of the church down, Kdc2. It really shouldn't be changed when there's still a discussion about it going on. Hell, not even 24 hours has passed since the episode aired. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   19:42, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • So should we just keep switching it back and forth as the vote fluctuates, Jimbo? That makes absolutely no sense. It should stay as it was when someone first put up the picture. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   20:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Jack was the "facilitator," but the episode was about all.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The eye is the first and last thing we ever see in the show (aside from the credits footage of the wreckage). It truly symbolizes "The End" of the show. I just don't feel that a shot that takes place off the island is appropriate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shawn4168 (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T15:36:59.
  • Pictogram voting oppose I don't like the church picture and I don't like the eye. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   20:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The church makes me less sad, really. I like the idea of the image for the final episode being an up-note with everyone moving on together, reunited after death, rather than the down-note of Jack dying in the woods. --Amedeus8 21:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The church image is absolutely perfect. The ending wasn't about Jack or even the island -- so where the location the image is portraying has no relevance. It was about these people. And at the end, they were all finally together again. Ready to move on. The church image is the absolute best choice. (Kdc2 21:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC))
  • Pictogram voting oppose with the church image. It's a nice fit, and normally (if this were a regular episode) would probably work. But the main image for Pilot, Part 1 is Jack's open eye, so the one for The End should be his closed eye. Count me as a vote for the closed eye. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 21:56, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose - The first episode image is of Jack's eye opening, the very first image of the entire show. It's only right that the series finale should be Jack's eye closing, and it is the very final image on the show. Screw the centricity of "Various", the episode is called "The End" so that refers to Jack's eye closing, the END of the show.--Baker1000 22:03, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The first image of the closed eye represents the episode well, and relates to the eye picture we have on the "Pilot, Part 1" article.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 23:22, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The series started with Jacks eye opening and ended with Jacks eye closing. I agree with what Clayburn said; for a normal episode, the church image would work. But for this final episode, the closed eye is perfect MattC867 23:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • No, someone changed the image for Pilot Pt 1 without discussion. The image has always been of Jack emerging on the beach, not his eye. I reverted it. And the reason it's even a Jack image is because it is Jack centric. This is multi centric. The End is about everyone, not just Jack. So the symmetry with the first image makes no sense because it isnt even Jack's eye. (Kdc2 00:34, May 25, 2010 (UTC))
      • Well, it should be changed to the open eye permanently. Now that we have the series finished, we see the producers intended it to begin with Jack's eye opening and end with his eye closing. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for the wiki. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 01:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting opposeThe centricity argument is completely ridiculous, so what. I hate that argument and the image of the eye is iconic. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  00:38, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Ridiculous??? That has only been standard for, oh, EVERY EPISODE! (Kdc2 02:48, May 26, 2010 (UTC))
Maybe i should be more clear the fact that we use that "standard" is ridiculous and downright stupid. It was implemented back when every episode was way more devoted to character focus, since say season 5 centricity has been less and less important, with a lot more non centric eps and various. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  02:53, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
How is it ridiculous to have the main image focus on the centric character? That's completely backwards. Centricity in no way had become less important since Season 5. That season focused on time travel, and the rules of time blurred the focus on whether there were flashbacks or flashforwards or no centricity at all. Season 6 returned to the character-centric episodes. So nothing changed. This episode isn't Jack centric. It is various. Every centric character, with the exception of two, appear in the church image. The image and the scene is beautiful. To each his own, but the image of the closed eye, for one, doesn't convey the centricity, but it's also ugly. It seems a consensus has been reached, however, and that's just unfortunate. I just honestly can't see how people think it is a good looking image or worthy to represent the end of the show. Sure it's the last scene, and it mirrors the first, but it wasn't all about Jack. It was about everyone. It's a shame many of you Lost "fans" can't see that. (Kdc2 16:40, May 31, 2010 (UTC))
How has it not become less important, in seasons 1-4 we had about 90% of episodes focus on 1 character look back just about every episode has tons of reveals about a certain chracter, in season 5 we had the first five episodes basically eliminate flashes and alternate beteween on and off island. In season 6 we had a whopping SIX of 18 episodes with a various centricity how is that character focus and most of the reveals were island specific not character, you can ask just about anyone character focus is MUCH more prevelant in seasons 1-4. Your agument is completely wrong, and as to why the centric character image is ridiculous? Well so far ive seen just plain stupid attempts to get an image that includes all centric characters one so far as suggesting using an image from a different ep as the main one just to have all the centric characters. IMO the episode image should personify the episode not the episode not the centric character this is after all the episode pg. While back in seasons 1-4 it was clear each episode was pretty much solely focused on one character its different now. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  17:56, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose My vote is for the closed eye.--Jonahwriter 02:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose I vote for the closed eye.--Frank J Lapidus 04:30, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Another vote for the closed eye. -- COMPOSSIBLE  Talk  Contribs  07:07, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Jack shot is kinda too much depressing and not global enough imo, while the church shot integrates a lot of the characters and reveals a bit of the global meaning of the season and the whole show. --Timich 07:52, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The closed eye shot, mirrors perfectly the open eye shot chosen for the Pilot. Hawkdeath 10:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The church picture fits much better. It shows the real meaning of the episode in a great way. --lilduff90 10:38, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose My vote is for the closed eye. It is perfect.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:23, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support I vote for the church image. A better church image, actually. There was one early on in the page edits with Christian's hand on Jack's shoulder, with the rest of the Losties in the background, that I thought was nice. AluminumFoilist 14:05, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
We certainly won't be using an image that has a watermark on it.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 14:46, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Sure the eye calls back to the opening shot. But so does half the episodes' openings! The church scene sums up the closing episode far better. Incidentally, a closed eye doesn't reverse the opening shot. The eye closing does. We can't show an eye closing with a still photo. --- Balk Of Fametalk 21:15, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • Also, notice how the church parallels an airplane cabin. Ooh. --- Balk Of Fametalk 04:13, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The closed eye transmits the closure better than any other pic. --erikire 06:00, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The closed eye says "The End" better than any other shot. —Josiah Rowe 19:20, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose My vote is for Jack's eye. --ChristianShephard 05:16, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose It has to be the closed eye.--Frakkin Toaster 06:05, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Closed eye for me. RevanFan 06:51, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting opposeJack's eye is perfect there. The beginning is the end. Zer01ne 07:21, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Church is best for this episode.
  • Pictogram voting support LOST has always been an ensemble show. That was cemented even further by the end of the events in the FST: namely, that these people all needed each other so much that they created this construct in the afterlife so that they could be together. Jack has certainly been our hero from Day 1, but the show isn't about him, it's about them all. The church image captures that theme perfectly.Mcwebe0 15:31, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Church scene #3 above for me. BTW Is it written in stone somewhere that there cannot be 2 main images for an article? Hatchbanger 16:13, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose I voted earlier, and my vote was deleted for some reason. I think that since it is the last image of the series, his eye should be the article image, just like his eye is the image for the pilot episode. Lightbringer127 16:57, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose My vote is for the closed eye. --Footmax 19:28, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The church represents The End for most of the main cast and the conclusion Jack's eye is just Jack--Thelamppost 19:31, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The closed eye is perfect. Seriously. --00frodo 20:28, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Have the image for the pilot jack's open eye and have it closed for the end. The show's themes should be retained in the main image.--Kriegster 02:53, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose For sure the eye. It's the perfect mirror to the image in the Pilot and is far more lasting image. Bssc81 03:07, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The Eye for sure, for reasons already mentioned. --Peels87 03:17, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support While I didn't personally like the church scene, it best represents the . ending. They were "touched" to meat up there as a finale goodbye. The church represents the "various" characters featured, no only Jack's death, even though that was a bit part - but the church scene also tells this. I go with the church, not the eye as the main image. (even though I hated that part)Iamlost23 18:13, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose I like the eye, especially since it's the ending the producers have had in mind for years and years. And it's fitting. Basementwall 21:07, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting opposeI vote for the eye, in fact I think it would be a good idea to change "Pilot, Part 1" image to a shot of Jack opening his eye--Rod|talk 21:58, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The eye is the only real choice, anyone who argues otherwise must have wandered in from a Grey's Anatomy wiki and doesn't "get" Lost. Hishighness420 00:47, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose keep the closed eye. Slimeham 22:32, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting opposeI vote for the eye. Church scene is nice but it's too small. Eye? I Aye! Ripple619 16:21, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The Church represents the synthesis of science/faiths and the culmination of the characters' experiences during the series.--Kisonakl
  • Pictogram reply Well, even though I disagree, it's been pretty consistently more than 60% in favor of the eye. Seems like a reasonable amount of consensus. Case closed? AluminumFoilist 14:00, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why a thumbnail of a church image can't be squeezed in somewhere near the top of the page. There's a huge amount of empty white space before the start of the article. Maybe it's technically difficult to do, I don't know. But getting that image up near the top would be a solution that would help satisfy everyone. Just sayin'. Hatchbanger 16:22, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose I think it really needs to be the eye. It sums up "the end" of the show, and it takes place on island. Matthew Fox has also stated that he knew that the show would end this way from the beginning, so it seems appropriate for the final episode.Alienux|talk|contributions 14:35, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

I vote the eye. TheNarrator 00:50, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support I vote for the eye because it was the best way to end the episode and the best way to show the death of jack who i am still very sad for. --Lostwillnevarend 06:21, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Modify episode infobox template

We could modify the infobox template so it allows for two images, and use both the eye image and a church image. AluminumFoilist 16:00, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

  • Oops, I didn't see this before I made my comment above. I think the "two images" idea is worth exploring. Hatchbanger 16:59, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting oppose - Hell no. That makes the infobox stupidly long, or the images stupidly small. We've tried two infoboxes for finales before too, that was an awful idea. I see no problem in having one image like every other page, one that the majority agree on. The eye is the one that was voted, and I'm going to vote another hell no on that promo still from the church.--Baker1000 19:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

The Heart of the Island

Did anyone else notice how the water pool where the light is coming from is almost an identical (albeit larger) pool to the one Ben has behind his secret room at his house in Dharmaville? I mean, they both had stone plugs in the middle that had to be removed in order to drain the water. Maybe, since Ben thought it called the Monster, and the Monster came from the source, the reaction of water and energy from the pool(s) "tingled" the Monster in a way that he would know where the feeling came from. I'm not saying both pools worked the same way, but maybe they had a particular correlation. Draining the source made the Monster and Jack vulnerable to mortal death from each other, which is why Desmond had to drain it. He was the only one who could get to the plug without dying in order to drain it. Jack, then, had to replug it, knowing what it did to the protector if it remained unplugged. I know this is a lot, but I think this would be worth noting in a section of trivia, but I just don't know where. --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   05:40, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Was Walt in the church at the end?

In the Times Talk program, Damon said that Walt would appear in the finale, but I didn't see him. Was he somewhere in the church crowd?  Robert K S   tell me  05:57, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • No, don't think so. I did see Walt in Locke's "flashes" in the FST, it was him throwing a knife at a tree so it is archive footage. That could be their cheeky way of saying he appeared in the episode. Phobia27 06:02, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Walt was not in the episode at all. Damon lied, but I've only come to expect lies from those 2 at this point. -- Xbenlinusx 07:38, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Maybe he was in a deleted scene? Supposedly, the Blu-ray release includes some deleted scenes that are supposed to "answer more questions" --Flyglue 06:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Are you sure these are deleted scenes and not just commentaries?  Robert K S   tell me  06:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • The DVDs were stated to feature a minimum of 20 mins of new material, devoted to answering questions. (I don't have a source on hand, but I guess you could try to look it up... Sorry about that) --LeoChris 06:13, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • I know that they wanted to end the show on Jack, on his back in the jungle, but I'd love a 3 year flashforward to show what the people who DIDN'T die were doing.--Gibbeynator 12:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
            • Lost novels anyone?! --Integrated (User / Talk) 11:11, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • No, but this could be because Walt had no baggage from his time on the island. The purgatory of the characters in Lost is only for those for which the events of Lost were the defining moments of their lives. But yes, I was expecting him to pop up to.TheTaoOfLocke 06:27, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • So the defining moments of Michael's life didn't revolve around the Island? I beg to differ. Not to mention, Mr. Eko...Widmore...Richard...Ana Lucia...Mr. Friendly...there were no 'Others' with the exception of Linus in there, and the case could be made that those people dedicated themselves to the Island for much longer than the Oceanic Flight survivors. -- Xbenlinusx 07:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Michael was a "whisper" on the Island, and wasn't in Purgatory (according to Harold Perrineau). Unlike Ben, he was apparently far from redeemable.--Tim Thomason 07:46, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • Ben slaughters a neighborhood worth of people, including his own father; continuously lied and murdered John Locke... yet Micheal who was desperately wanting to be reunited with his son and get off the stupid island, and shoots one woman, is somehow the "bad guy"? Heck, there wasn't even a Waltcentric episode that would tell what the heck he was doing while he was off the island, or why he was important. I still find Kate to be the most useless of the characters, yet she got pass every time... blehBunai82 13:19, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • The point is that all these people were stepping into the light together because they were friends in life. If there were a bunch of random Others there it wouldn't have made sense. I agree it would have made sense to see Eko, Richard, Ana Lucia, Frank, Miles, Daniel, and Charlotte, as they certainly influenced the other survivors's lives. --SethFlight815 13:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • Although Eko, Richard, Ana and such were important people to the Losties, they were not the most important people in the losties lives and those people had people who were more important to them. Eko for example probably wanted to be with his brother in Africa, Richard probably wanted to be with Isabella in Spain. Things like that so they all live the purgatory they really want.--WhyDidntUKnow 13:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
            • I agree. It isn't the "what" as much as the "who". Christian tells Jack "These were people you needed -- and who needed you." Richard, for example, didn't "need" the losties, and vice-versa -- not on an emotional level. These people had emotional connections with each other, which is why they all moved on together. --Litany42 14:05, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
              • Doesnt Jacob tell them he brought all the candidates to the island because they were all alone in life? I think that through the events of the series these select people who would have otherwise been alone found each other and they wanted to move on together. Hence why only those specific people were in the church. So although they knew Charlotte and Daniel, those characters would be taking their own journeys to the afterlife. But, what I dont get is why Helen wasnt there, unless she was a construct like David.Gms23 17:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Mr. Eko wasn't there, either. I guess black people just don't go to Lost heaven, apparently. I mean, really, what the heck? Maybe it's more of that "black and white" symbolism they've got going on, but really you'd think somebody would have noticed the implications here and fixed it. --Amedeus8 20:56, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram reply Rose was there...--LeoChris 21:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC
    • Pictogram reply Well, dang. I guess I can't make that joke anymore then, huh? Hm. --Amedeus8 21:10, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Mr Eko wasn't there coz he held his hand out with a bag that he wanted filled with money, while the other occasionals just held their hands out.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

For me, this show has been about Jack and his perception of his life, death, before, after, with and without the plane crash. This entire show has been from the P.O.V of Jack for the most part, and even when we see things from the P.O.V of other characters, i feel that the said portrayal of these other characters is how Jack perceives them to be. This show is essentially about life , death , karma -(the acts that we do), dharma (the acts we ought to have done) and self discovery of what we truly want as opposed to what we think we want. The protagonist (in my opinion) i.e. Jack is a complex character, he is a leader, he is very brave, never gives up, but some of his other qualities are what makes him such a tragic figure - he is a loner, he is restless, he is never satisfied by leading a simple , wholesome life with wife , kids etc and as his ex-wife aptly put it "he always needs to "fix things" ". Here is how 'I' see it- Jack saved people who must have died in more than one instance and not only that they did not show any sign of the injury. It was a miracle. In mythology/history only Jesus could save the life of people. He was God. I think he Jack was the personification of God. Or the 'son of God' as Jesus was. I am Hindu, so including the above formulations, I have the following understandings. There are essentially 3 Main Gods in Hinduism Brahma-the maker(inventor)- likened to the 'mother' of Jacob and the island(and the world) ; Vishnu- the protector(of people)-likened to Jack ; and Shiva - the destroyer(who kills enemies & destroys the universe when no good is left and only evil)= together they form the trinity or 'BRAHMAN' who is the collective entity of all the soles in the universe- likened to the chore/light of the island....Going by this- by mythological/historical context Jack i.e. Vishnu graced the earth in the form of 'KRISHNA'. He was also a hero, but a tragic-flawed one at that-Just like Jack. Jack had a major fall-out with his father before he died. He felt the guilt of the death. He could not 'fix the relationship' before the death and Jack is never in harmony unless things are fixed. He along with his fellow passengers crash into the island. Jack goes on a path of self discovery- of what he truly wants , from thereon, he thinks he wants to leave the island , but but when he actually does , he realizes that he is not happy on earth with the fixing taking place, he finally realizes that what he wants to do is to just 'save' people and 'save' the world- He did both-having accomplished his 'dharma' he introspects and realizes that he wants to make amends with his dad and that is what will give him true happiness. So he decides to meet his father. He always wanted the best for Kate - even though things dint work out her - he wanted her to leave the island and lead a full , wholesome life and she did(his P.O.V)same goes with Sawyer -not withstanding his rivalry...so on and so forth...What Jack 'thinks' these people want, he wants and that happens...everything goes well, he meets his dad. He is told he is dead. He is then upset but he comes around when he realizes he himself chose death over other options i.e. he chose to meet his dad. His duties 'dharma' accomplished on earth and having made amends with his dad, he and his dad are free to take the further journey for self discovery and ultimate salvation. Therefore in his perception of heaven it is only he and his father, i.e. son of god and god, looking down upon the people on earth- Kate etc and blessing them...They finally join the exalted soul of Brahman which is their ultimate goal. This show has been as much a self discovery for me as it was Jack. I used to scorn down at unscientific superstitions but i realized that i am religious/spiritual/philosophical person beneath it all. I also find my self to be a strange and curious mixture of Hindu and Christian beliefs- the later i don't know where i imbibed as i was born in a Hindu family. Anyway this show has been of self-discovery as far i am concerned and i am immensely satisfied with the arc of the story. All that i have said here are my perceptions of jack and the show and his perceptions of the people around him. Therefore everything is about perception or angles and the Topsy-turvy way the tile i.e. lost is presented says it all as far i am concerned. I had to get this out of me..Now I can 'move on'--Lost & found 04:42, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

When did the afterlife officially begin?

  • did it begin for each of the losties when they died individually? or did it start once each of the losties had died? if the afterlife began when the losties died individually, then that wouldn't make sense because Jack would be in it much longer than Kate for example. Or Shannon would be in it for much longer than Jack because she died earlier than he did. Bellac230 06:02, May 24, 2010 (UTC)Bellac May 24, 2010
    • Christian said that there is no "now" meaning no time at all. No matter when each character died, they all came to the exact same moment and "time" in the afterlife. It's more of a metaphysical concept than actual timeline issues. You just have to let your mind accept that their "souls" came to the exact same "time" in a fashion similar to how they all would recognize. --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   06:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Exactly, there is no when. Time is irrelevant in the afterlife, according to Christian. All that mattered was that the characters relieved themselves of the events of Lost after they died, whenever that was. We know this because Christian said so, and because Ben and Hurley referenced their time together on the island, which occurred after the show ended.TheTaoOfLocke 06:24, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • I would also add that this is pretty appropriate and fitting within the themes of Lost: it goes beyond our understanding of time and space, even more so than the time travel in Season 5.--HaloOfTheSun 06:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Shannon (and Christian and Boone and Ana Lucia) died about three years before Jack did. Kate, Sawyer, Frank, the graying Ricardo, Miles, Desmond, and Claire all died somewhere within a few decades after the episode. Hurley and maybe Ben might've died a few *thousand* years after the episode, there's no way of guessing with that duo. So, sometime after Hurley's death, far in the future, they all meet up in this extra-temporal dimension. And for some odd reason, the Desmond of that dimension contacts the "real-world" Desmond of 2007 (2008 according to the latest TV Guide). It's in the future and in the present (and, presumably, they could hang out in the past if powerful enough). I wonder if the Man in Black hung out in a Purgatory with Claudia's people?--Tim Thomason 06:17, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • So, when Desmond is hit by the electromagnetism, he's really dead for a few seconds. To him it seems like days, but really he's only out a few seconds. In those seconds he is in the afterlife. Jack Dutton 07:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Everyone on the plane didn't die decades later; they died the same day as jack. were they not the remains of the plane as the credits rolled? Thebaldster 07:25, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • No, those were the remains of Oceanic 815. They had the logo all over them. And Christian even said some of them died much later than you (Jack). Bellac230 07:36, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • Exactly, everyone died when the Oceanic 815 crashed. Jack Dutton 07:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
            • There is no evidence of this whatsoever... Listen to what Christian says. Everyone did NOT die at the same time. BrookeP 14:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
              • News Flash. Everyone dies. Point out one person in documented history (religious figures excluded) that has not eventually died. I don't understand why people are trying to read so much into this. Everyone died eventually, as that is the natural thing to eventually do, and the FST was what they experienced after they died.MKLNK 16:14, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • Which was further implied by Hugo and Ben's comments to each other- 'You were a great #2', etc. The implication being that they worked together on the island for quite some time after Jacks death. SpartHawg948 07:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • AND while touching Jack's face to let him remember, Kate said she missed him so much, which suggests she lived for some period of time after Jack's death. Besides, they led independent FST-afterlife lives, they met only when the proper time came, maybe when 1000-year old Hurley died as the last of them and set the events in FST in motion ar whatever. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Certainlynot (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T15:38:21.
    • One way to think of it is you had no awareness of time before you were born, correct? In a sense, the time just flew by instantly, right from the beginning of the universe to the moment you were born. The same could be said for the afterlife, you have no awareness of time in the afterlife, so whether you died 2,000 years ago, or you died yesterday, you wouldn't be aware of the time that went by. So, when they all eventually died, they all met up in the afterlife, feeling like all of them only died yesterday. Phobia27 06:28, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm a little confused as to how Christian says that there is no "now" but there is a time and datestamp on Claire's ultrasound back in What Kate Does Azjeans 08:37 May 24, 2010
      • Well, think of our world, the world of the living, as something completely separate from the afterlife. The afterlife doesn't exist at any specific point in time in our world. Whenever you die, you wind up there at the same point as everyone else, regardless of when you died. But time does move within the afterlife, completely separate from the time in our world. Does that make any sense? It's kinda difficult to describe. Since their afterlife appears to be like our world, times and dates and everything are still around, but they're only relative to the afterlife and have nothing to do with when it is here. Hopefully that didn't confuse you and make things a lot worse. Really, all you need to know is that no matter when you die, you're brought to the same point in the afterlife's timeline as everyone else. --Amedeus8 23:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • Acctually I saw it as being that, they were in a 1st step of sorts of the after life, a place where they get to live in a fashion similar to their orriginal lives. It's a place where you get to deal with the issues you had when you were alive. And when you finally realize your dead, if you feel your ready, you get to move on to the next stage of the afterlife.--WhyDidntUKnow 12:15, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • Yes, it's the Astral Plane --The EC Way 12:36, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
            • That's why it didn't crash. —Josiah Rowe 23:52, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Christian said they ALL decided to create the "Afterlife"... How could they ALL decide that when they died at different times?

  • Christian said they all created it in order to be together again. Well, how did they all create it when they never talked about it or even thought about it? Bellac230 06:35, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Time is irrelevant. They all had to experience the same thing together. So, once they had all died in one way or another, everyone "created" the image of what would have happened if they had never crashed on the island. It was never shown how the characters perceived the time between their lives and their afterlives, or if they perceived it at all. All we know is that they did have the shown experience in the afterlife.TheTaoOfLocke 06:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • They didn't all decide to create their afterlife. Rather when they were about to die or sometime right afterwards they were thinking of who they wanted to be with, where they had seen them and how much they wanted to be with those people. From that group desire the afterlife was created. Though some may have resisted (i.e Shannon).Zaggs 12:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Because two thing in common brought them together: the relationships they developed and their deepest desires. Uzerzero 06:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • That doesn't answer the question though. That just explains what the afterlife was (their deepest desires) and how they were able to move on (their relationships with one another). That doesn't answer how Christian knew they all decided to create this afterlife. Bellac230 06:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • In this episode, Christian was a psychopomp, a guide through the afterlife. How does Virgil know the stuff he knows in The Divine Comedy? At this stage, it should be clear that some questions don't have literal answers. —Josiah Rowe 08:16, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • For that matter, who IS "all"? Ethan? Eloise? Keamey? Mikhail? Horace? Radzinsky? Why are almost none of the Others, with whom Sawyer, Jin, Miles, etc. spent three years, there? While Shannon & Boone, about 2 months apiece, get included? Who made "the rules" dictating which of them could participate in creating the ALT? Why are people in the ALT who did not help to create it? Why are people in the ALT/Purgatory who never existed at all, and so never died (David)? --Lost in the dollhouse 01:53, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • What you don't realize is that as soon as someone in the LOST universe dies, they meet some mystical being who/that grants them a wish. Amazingly, almost everyone associated with the Island between 1974-2004 wishes that they could exist in a purgatorial Flash Sideways state where they can re-live their lives and eventually meet other "Losties." EZamor 02:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • My answer is based on my more general running theory: the flash sideways really were created by the Incident; it's just that its creation could not have actually helped the original timeline. After all was said and done, much as the Island is happy to let people it's done with die, it rewarded those that were instrumental to its survival by allowing them to reunite in the alternate universe. This also explains the lack of Michael and Walt, as it wasn't terribly happy with Michael last we checked. Thus, my answer would be that in a nondirect sense, they are in fact responsible for the reunion, as they all worked together to make the Incident happen. Dgtljunglist 06:05, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Final Moments

Just as a note... I loved how Jack wasn't alone when he died. I was actually thinking about how horrible it would be to die alone as he trekked through the bamboos, and how ironic it would be that he defied his own catchphrase, or the second half at least... but then came good ol' Vincent, who lay beside him as he passed.

It's also fitting that these were the first two characters we saw in the show - Jack and Vincent - who would be the last two. The S 06:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Having Vincent calmly lying next to Jack as he died was inspired. Hatchbanger 07:06, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Agreed. I thought Vincent laying down next to Jack was very touching, probably one of the most beautiful shots in the show, but I'm an old softie and a dog lover, so I suppose that makes me biased. :-) Aekolman 06:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I took it as the saying 'Let a sleeping Dog lie' also because Jack has made his peace he was always trying to effect things but now the sleeping dog lies, literally next to him and metaphorically.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gbell64 (talkcontribs) .

I think it should be interpreted as "No man is an island" = we are all interconnected and depend on each other in shaping our world. It's especially relevant with Jack who embodied the idea of a man being an island until the very end when he lets go. Kabanossen

It was also an exact reversal of the start of the series in exactly the same order: Jack's eye opens, and he stares at the sky through the bamboo stems. Vincent passes by and he difficulty gets up and starts his journey passing the white tennis of his father.Maokun 15:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Will Vincent get an Emmy? --Integrated (User / Talk) 11:14, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • A bone perhaps. Was it the same actor throughout the 6 years. If so - then Ohau has magical properties. That dog didn't age a day. I can anwer my own question. Vincent has a page (of course) - he had two actors represent him, one in drag!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:35, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Bloopers section

One of the bloopers listed is: 'In the first scene of the episode, there is perhaps a crewmember present in the corner when the camera pans around to the staircase. It is unsure if there would usually be someone on the plane during the luggage transfer, but it seemed out of place.' Just wanted to point out that, as someone with a fair bit of experience with the flightline operation of aircraft (7 years experience w/ the USAF), there doesn't seem to be anything wrong there. The purported 'crewmember' actually appears to be a member of either the aircrew or the groundcrew of the airline who is spotting for the driver of the cargo transfer vehicle. It's standard procedure to use spotters any time a ground vehicle will be moving in very close proximity to an aircraft, and that seems to be the case here. SpartHawg948 06:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Did anyone notice that when Jack, Flocke and Desmond are at the top of the Entrance to the Light Source, peering down, Flocke calls Desmond by his Real Name "Henry". He says "Alright Henry, We'll lower him down nice and easy". Can someone check I heard correctly Boomerkc

  • I just heard it, he definitely says something, sounds like Henry. Gms23 17:12, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • THis is incorrect, Flock definatly says "Alright we" not "Henry" sorry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tinnerboy (talkcontribs) .
  • Henry Ian Cusick goes by Ian, not Henry, so it's unlikely that he would accidentally be called Henry by Terry O'Quinn. --Gluphokquen Gunih 07:14, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

When Jack awakens on the rock after being teleported out of the Source, you can see a piece of equipment (a mic transmitter?) protruding under his shirt, on his back. It seems to be in every shot there, although he has no lines in that scene. (My girlfriend first pointed this out to me.) --PubliusVeto 19:28, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Definitely. This stuck out to me in my first viewing, and is glaring upon repeat viewings. Especially strange considering he has no lines, and that he wears the same outfit under nearly same conditions throughout the episode (initial tackling of Locke after exiting cave, etc.) and the protrusion clearly does not exist elsewhere.--Hart parkridge 21:25, May 26, 2010 (UTC)Hart Parkridge

Re: While Jack is walking through the bamboo, the blood from his nose appears and disappears. Considering we don't get his death march in real-time, couldn't he have just wiped his nose, continued bleeding, wiped his nose again, et cetera? --Jacknicholson 07:06, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Recurring Themes

This episode was a plethora of them. The first that comes to mind was Jack and the Monster looking down the waterfall in front of the source like Jack and Locke did at the end of season 1, but there are loads of others. In fact, almost everything that happened in the flashback/afterlife parts of the episode were about the reoccurring themes of the show. It might be worth noting that this was the case beyond the extent of a normal reoccurring themes section. There hasn't been another episode where reoccurring themes has been a theme of the episode itself.TheTaoOfLocke 07:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • As a matter of fact, a big percentage of the dialogue was "frequently used phrases". I'd say up to 40% of the dialogue is quouting.Maokun 15:42, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Smokey

In the Jacob/MIB flashback episode, the MIB is thrown down into the Light, and in a matter of seconds, re-emerges as the smoke monster. Jack and Desmond were in the Light region for much longer, and neither one had any mysterious physical changes. UAQ here? I think so. -- Xbenlinusx 07:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • I agree. For a second I thought Jack would come back as the Smoke Monster. How did he get out of the cave anyway? When we see him after the light comes back on he is outside - just like the MIB's dead body after Jacob threw him into the cave and the Smoke Monster spat him out. I can understand why Desmond wasn't reincarnated as the Smoke Monster as he was immune and he wasn't actually in the water when Jack put the stone back into place. But Jack was in the water when the light came back on so he should have come back as the Smoke Monster. --Lost3001 08:49, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • When Desmond turned the key under the Swan Station's pocket of electromagnetism he was magically transported to an outdoor location as well. Maybe Smokey didn't spit out MIB -- maybe his body was transported by the white light too? BrookeP 14:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • But didn't the smoke monster perhaps die when Flocke/MIB was killed before Jack went back to the pool? --Tdstom 14:05, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Electromagnetism doesn't affect Desmond, and as for Jack - he's officially in Jacob's shoes now - no one said anything about the protector themself not going down there.--Pittsburghmuggle 11:35, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Jack was no longer in Jacob's shoes at this point. Jack had transferred the responsibility to Hurley. BrookeP 14:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • No, Jack actually says to Hurley, 'Now you're like me' which doesn't suggest that Jack has lost any power whatsoever.--Minty2057 16:23, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • MIB could have tampered with the source causing him to become Smokey while down there. Sure, the transition was quick, but that could be a bit of licence time-wise. shrodes 12:44, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Actually, Mother told Jacob not to go in there, that it would be worse than death. --Litany42 13:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
        • The smoke monster was no more MiB than it was Locke. When MiB fell into the source, the smoke (whatever it is will ultimately be unexplained) was released. It died in the battle with Jack. Smokey predated everything, as evidenced by the hieroglyphics of the smoke monster. We now know that the Egyptian influences predated "Mother," because of the glyphs on the linchpin in the pool. Superfresh 13:19, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • "The smoke monster was no more MiB than it was Locke." It has been explicitly stated by the producers that MiB is in fact the smoke monster. Schammy 17:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • I like that answer, but it raises a few other questions. Is it a coincidence that both MiB and Smokey wanted to get off the island? And if Smokey wasn't MiB, why couldn't he/it just kill Jacob? I think Smokey had to be MiB at some level. However, perhaps since MiB going into the cave already unleashed the monster, it was no longer dangerous for others to go down (except for the whole electro-magnetism thing of course). --Litany42 14:16, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
            • The answer is yes, and precisely the point they were trying to make this whole season: MiB is presented as ultimately, a poor, bitter wretch that was wronged too many times and whose only ambition was to get away from the Island. However, everyone on Jacob's side was radically opposed to it, talking as thought it would be the end of the world if he ever left the Island. Dogen even called him "evil incarnate" which elicited a surprised chuckle from MiB. (Note he also acted surprised when Sayid told him about his post-resurrection lack of feeling, which was clearly Smokey's doing.) It's obvious that Smokey was using MiB's desire to leave the Island to serve its own purpose of leaving the Island and spreading the "disease" or "darkness" which now I am sure, consists on snuffing out the bit of the "light" that Mother said that is inside everyone. Perhaps since MiB was the one to freed Smokey, Smokey was stuck with his personality and memories in the same way it (they) would later be stuck with Locke's body.Maokun 15:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

MIB could become smokey because he was special. BeŻet 12:36, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Guys, I think we have sufficient evidence now to point out that Christian who appeared every other time other than 'to help them find water' was in fact the 'real' Christian who has been leading them around everywhere... Obviously his plans coincided with Smokey's plans because it was the ultimate way of killing him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mitchincredible (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T07:44:40.
  • As I took it, the 'source' was life. Cheesy I know, but Mother claimed that a little part of it existed in each of us, if it goes out there it does everywhere yadayadayada. Anyway, as mortal humans, evil is part of us, our lives. MiB's malevolance and distain released this evil, which he came to embody. This could only happen once, to someone like MiB: special, but twisted. combining him with the source released this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chrispy212 (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T08:12:34.
  • MiB didn't became the monster. The smoke monster was already there, inside the cave. MiB falling into the cave made smokey free. The MiB electromagnetically (as Jack) was transported outside de cave. Smoky adopted the form of MiB (a dead man) as he adopted the form of Lock (a dead man). Smokey tooks portions of dead people awareness, experiencies, remembers... so he is a mix between original dead body and smokey. Smokey doesn't want to leave the island... he doesn't want anything, it's only a smoke monster representing evilness of people. MiB wants to leave the island. MiB it's not the monster... the monster is an entity with MiB awareness stuck in Lock's body. I think the monster didn't died, MiB consciousness died. Smoky is now inside the cave, Hurley must protect the light (and the monster).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stabilini (talkcontribs) .
  • This whole show had the duality and balance theme going. So not all of the mysteriescan be explained by science and logic, because that would leave faith and science out of balance. Furthermore, a show with the message of "letting it go" would have to leave burning questions to make you let go of. I think it's apparent Jacob and Smokey could have killed one another at anytime. The rules dictated by Jacob prevented it and if Smokey broke them he wouldn't be proving Jacob wrong about his faith in people because if he broke the rules of the game he would be proven wrong. Get it? Now I'm NOT SAYING THAT Jacob could kill Smokey,I'm saying smokey could kill him, because you can't physically hurt a cloud of smoke. Not to mention the COULD hurt eachother because mother said that there was no world outside as well and that is a lie so Ifind it highly doubtful that she magically made them unable to hurt one another. Jacob said it best: "It's just a line through chalk." jack survived the light by miracle- it's as simple as that. Coming back to the duality, the light was both the source of life and a strong electromagnetic resonance keeping teh volcano dormant_ IT"S BOTH_ LOST is great for it'sd real characters in a still believable world- so as in life- it's not all explained- the mystery lives on, but the story lives longer.
  • Jack couldn't turn into a smoke monster because he was a chosen protector. Desmond couldn't because he withstood that kind of energy and remained in tact. They were the perfect choices to go into the source light water stuff.
  • I looked at it as it being the light, since it's such a source of power, will corrupt you and kill you and make you the smoke monster. Since Jack was the incorruptible man Jacob was searching for, he was able to die without becoming the smoke monster. Jack's experience in the alt is happening as the smoke attempts to corrupt him, which is why the wounds that Flocke gave him are present. Christian explains in the church why the smoke is ultimately unsuccessful. ESachs 05:07, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't Ben go into the Church at the end?

My wife and I were discussing this, and we think it's got something to do with the fact that Alex is alive and well in the afterlife. Since this afterlife is essentially what the characters create for themselves, instead of going to heaven he would rather stay behind and watch Alex grow up and live her life since he regrets not being able to do that in his own lifetime. BradMJustice 07:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • This was nearly my exact take, too. Not necessarily that he wanted to stay behind and watch her grow up and live her life, but he probably wanted to stick around until she was ready to come with him. There's no indication that she became one of the whispers (like Michael), so it's likely that he was just sticking around long enough for her to remember her real life and forgive Ben for what he did so they could go together. Jdinger 08:24, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • In my humble opinion, i think Ben didn't entered the church as he has now taken over as protector of the Island, Hurley handed that role over to Ben (as Jack did to Hurley), so as it stands Ben is not dead and has decided to stay on the island Jutty 09:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)Jutty 10:33, May 24, 2010 (BST)
    • I disagree. Christian said "everyone dies" - so anyone in this afterlife is going to have already died. Hurley and Ben also have that exchange "you were a great #1" .. etcDogandpanda 14:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • I like this theory.--Pittsburghmuggle 11:37, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Ben is not the protector of the island. Look at it logically: Jacob was the protector, and had a helper (can't remember the specific name that represents the helper), and that helper was Richard. Jack never appointed a helper, but he passed his role on to Hurley. Hurley had no idea what to do, and asked Ben to help him for a while, as he has experience. So we can view this as Hurley is now the islands protector whilst Ben is Hurley's helper. Relating back to the question, I agree with the first and second opinion. I think he just wants to stay with Alex because of what happened on the island. --KeNJii 11:10, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's as sweet as that for Ben. He seems very sad, almost ashamed when he stays behind, not happy to be seeing his daughter. While I would like good things for Ben (I love his character), I think he has a LOT of atoning to do, and realizes that he's just not ready to move on yet. Maybe part of that atonement does have to do with Alex and her mom in the afterlife, but it's not a Hooray! feeling for him, because he knows he could be at peace and move on with the others if he were truly ready and not been so wretched at times throughout his life.Czeunges 12:04, May 24, 2010 (UTC)czeunges
  • All the characters (except for Sayid, I can't work him in...) seemed to redeem their lives in the flashsideways and 'move on' from whatever plagued them before the crash. Ben did as well with giving up a shot at power (the principal's job) for the sake of Alex, but perhaps his sins went a lot deeper and he didn't think himself ready. The staying for Alex (a sort of 'knowing' what the sideways is, but staying anyway, like Eloise) is possible, but I agree he looked sad at the end, so I don't think this is the case shrodes 12:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Addendum: I suppose Sayid moved on from Nadia in the flash-sideways... shrodes 12:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Ben has just learned that he spent years on the island doing despicable things to a lot of people-- in particular, to the people in the church. Although Locke has forgiven him, Ben has to come to terms with this before he faces the other Losties. It's not a question of not wanting to abandon Alex-- the other Losties aren't departing for the afterlife directly from the church (it's hardly as if Jack, Claire and Juliet are going to abandon David, or as if Jin and Sun are going to depart before Ji Yeon is born). Spikebrennan 13:05, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • I agree. I thought it was pretty clear that Ben was experiencing intense guilt for his actions on the Island (he looked sad AND rather spaced out, as if he was having trouble comprehending the things he had done while alive after suddenly remembering them all). He was responsible for so much pain and suffering that he wasn't ready to move on, especially with the people in the church - people who he made life very tough for for a while RobertGoulet 13:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I also believe that Ben needs to atone still (he tells John he has a few more things to do -- interesting too how he seems to have the choice not to go in), but I think it goes a bit deeper than this. Christian tells Jack something like "the most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. You needed them, and they needed you." Ben seems to have a serious crossover here. Although his time with the Losties was arguably the most important time on the island, he likely has a stronger connection to other people like Alex (as mentioned above). He needs, and is needed by, other people. And if this "moving on point" is about meeting everyone important in your life, Ben's place is probably somewhere else. --Litany42 13:57, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • One definition of "sin" is anything that separates us from connection to others, to community, to being part of something larger than ourselves. Part of the brilliance of Lost was watching characters "let go" of their attachments to ego: jealousy, hatred, arrogance - things that separated them from one another - and learn to help each other. And even though they were part of a larger destiny, they still had choices. Ben chose not to enter the church with everyone else. Hugo invited Ben into the church & Iliana said on the island something to the effect that "we will have you" - but Ben chose to stay out for now. I wonder if this is because he was still grappling with a feeling of separation. (The fact that near the end Ben killed Widmore out of revenge might indicate he still had some attachment to his own agenda, rather than sacrificing for the greater good?) When Locke entered the church and Ben apologized, he referenced his own jealousy, saying that Locke had had everything Ben wanted. Also, Ben seemed caught up in a grasp for power that seemed different from the way Jack & Hurley & even pre-Flocke Locke gained their power. I hope others here can articulate this better - my thoughts about this aren't fully formed. I think Ben didn't enter the church because he is still dealing with unfinished business: guilt, remorse, maybe vengence. Maybe he needs to forgive himself before he realizes he deserves to be in there with the rest of them. No one else is stopping him but himself. Briana2346 15:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I do not think Ben had the choice to go in and no way of atonement as he killed Jacob. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gbell64 (talkcontribs) .
  • I assumed that Ben did not join the others in the church because he still believed he was an outsider, not really part of the group. That is how his character has been portrayed throughout the series: an angry, disaffected guy with no friends & whose family was a crappy, alcoholic father who was too self-absorbed to care about his son. The only person in his life was Alex -- who isn't in the church. Her death hurt so much that he still couldn't forgive Widmore at the end, when it mattered. Even if he & Hugo had a great relationship protecting the Island & he managed to redeem himself for how he treated other people before Jacob died -- it would still require a lot of chutzpah to join the group in that church. Despite Hugo & Locke's invitations. -- Llywrch 21:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I believe that Ben did not join the others in the church because he did not feel that his time on the island was the best part of his life. Everyone else went into the church because being on the island was the best part and the reason for their lives. However in the after life Ben realises that he has a chance to make things right with Alex and Rousseau. If he can get them to remember and forgive him then he can finally move on. i think this may also be the same for Widmore, Eloise and Dan. -- Lostie-stephenbarr
  • Ben's a 40 year old virgin. After living with his dad all his nerdy little life, who can blame him for sticking around to finally get laid? Duncan905 19:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Guest starring

Ok so the guest starring collum only has 4 names. This is because the other 14 or so returning actors were all credited with the main cast just for this episode but technically they are guests. How are we going to resolve this? I suggest just for this episode have a "starring" column with the names of everyone as they were in the episode as it was very different to every other episode.--Jutty 09:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting support Makes sense. —Josiah Rowe 13:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Yeah make a starring column it makes sense, It does look odd having just four names for guest starring. Buffyfan123 13:20, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Also agree, make a starring column. --Frw22 17:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply This would require the modifying of the Infobox template. I'll do this tomorrow morning. You have until then to compile the list of actors credited as starring and reply with it to this message. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 02:24, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Have fun! Sam Anderson, Naveen Andrews, L. Scott Caldwell, Nestor Carbonell, Francois Chau, Henry Ian Cusick, Jeremy Davies, Emilie de Ravin, Michael Emerson, Jeff Fahey, Fionnula Flanagan, Matthew Fox, Jorge Garcia, Maggie Grace, Josh Holloway, Daniel Dae Kim, Yunjin Kim, Ken Leung, Evangeline Lilly, Rebecca Mader, Elizabeth Mitchell, Dominic Monaghan, Terry O'Quinn, Zuleikha Robinson, Ian Somerhalder, John Terry, Sonya Walger, Cynthia Watros --Jacknicholson 08:39, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
You beat me to it, thanks :) --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 12:17, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply Are we going to add this to every template, then? Because there are others that credit only semi-regular cast (Charlie in season 4, Walt in season 2-actually, the main cast changed a lot throughout season 2, Claire in season 1). --Golden Monkey 20:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply I made the change here but I won't do it everywhere. You should be able to figure out how to do it based on the coding. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 01:02, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

I'm deleting this entire section. The intent of the section was to list the questions that we could expect to hear answers to. Since the show has ended, there are no more such questions. For a discussion on a possible change to the UQ sections, see Lostpedia:Ideas#Answered Questions Category in Articles.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  08:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

But there will be future material, notably a Q&A on the future Blu-Ray release (and who knows what else). Shouldn't we continue the UQ's for that reason?--Tim Thomason 09:05, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
The producers have said that the show needs to stand on its own and everything you need to know will be in there. There are some valid UQ's still from the rest of the series (the food palette), but nothing in this episode. All the ones I deleted from here were essentially asking what would happen next, which is... silly.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  09:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, there are two conflicting reports on what the producers will do regarding the show (Q&A or let it stand on its own), so we need to check the source on the Q&A concept that's popped up on the site. I didn't check the validity of the questions before I reversed it (before I reversed that), but I agree that there should definitely have been no *intentional* unanswered questions in this ep, and that's all we should ideally chronicle.--Tim Thomason 09:12, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps the original intent was to list questions to which there may be answers. But the final episode is, for obvious reasons, a little different. I think it wouldn't be "Lost" if the show didn't leave a few unanswered questions hanging out there (like, why didn't Ben go into the church when everyone else seemed to be inviting him?). It would be appropriate to underline these questions, I think. --Litany42 13:06, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Given how important questions are to Lost I'd say that, unless they are too many, we should leave some of those that are key and very relevant to the finale. That said, the coming Lost Encyclopedia (or whatever it's called) is said to clear up some things which the creators thought were understood throughout the series but which may not have been clear to those watching it, so for all we know that could clear up a few things in the future, mainly by pointing out the answers the writers thought they had given us that we'd not actually completely understood. --Sauron18 14:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Can you link to where the intent of the section was as you described it? I always thought the intent was simply to present questions that may not have been answered - these questions could then be discussed on the 'theories' or 'talk' page. Some of them may actually have been answered and thus would be removed once the answer was determined. Dogandpanda 15:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Even if they wont be answered, the questions do in fact exist. There are questions we didn't get an answer to. User:Lash/sig 15:42, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

We should probably create a page here on Lostopedia dedicated to "questions which were unanswered by the series in the end".--Pittsburghmuggle 21:06, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with this. I'd suggest that, at a minimum, the major questions that loomed since the first season, and were never answered should be covered:
I think that about covers the biggies. -Deepone 21:56, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • What is the Island? Seriously? It's a damn island. What more are you looking for? The smoke monster was the result of throwing the Man in Black into the source. If you think there's some science to be explained behind it then I don't think you're watching the same show I am. The numbers were the factors of the Valenzetti equation, as well as the numbers for Jacob's final candidates.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  00:22, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The biggest UQs for me are: 'Where did the Source come from?' and 'Who originally began appointing protectors?' --Integrated (User / Talk) 11:18, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'd like to see a UQ section continued for this ep. Just because the questions may never be answered isn't a terribly good reason to axe the section (or axe all UQ in general). One can muse on, theorize on & imagine possible answers to these questions. As others have pointed out there's a lot of big and quite valid UQ remaining. Spiral77 18:41, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree. I'd like to see the UQ section continued for this ep. because that's how I get to the episode-specific theories pages. I think that all pages should be consistent so even if there are questions that aren't going to be answered by producers/writers, there should be a place on the episode page for them. --Billmaya 14:47, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

How about this one - "why was there a dead body down near the pool in the 'source' cave"? MannyF 02:26, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

  • An excellent UQ. The ep raises all kinds of questions about the nature of the Source. Spiral77 22:11, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm confused as to why an unanswered questions section is not on the final episode page. You don't have to put ALL questions that the series has not answered. The section is for dealing with questions pertaining to the episode, not a list of what's been unanswered SO FAR. There are a couple good new questions raised that the finale (on top of ones already mentioned), which I think merit a an unanswered questions section, such as: Ben and Hurley refer to a period of time where Ben served as Hurley's #2 and Hurley as Ben's #1, what exactly is this? And let's keep in mind that these questions MAY STILL BE ANSWERED later in the complete lost collection disks. [[[User:Qiaoshu|Qiaoshu]] 23:32, May 28, 2010 (UTC)]

Smoke Monster creation

In the Jacob/MIB/Mother episode, Jacob throws MIB into the stream and he disappears down the cave. Presumably he fell to the bottom of the cave which would have certainly killed him! In order for him to become the Smoke Monster he would have then had to crawl all the way to the pool containing the stone and come into contact with he light there - in the final episode Desmond isn't affected by the light until he steps into the pool. So in hindsight the creation of the Smoke Monster doesn't make sense.

Also, when Jack puts the stone back into place and the light comes back on, he is in the pool - so why doesn't he turn into the Smoke Monster? Didn't Mother say going into the cave/coming into contact with the light would be worse than dying? She knew that for a normal person to come into contact with the light it would turn them into the Smoke Monster. Desmond was immune to the effect of the light but Jack - having passed his powers on to Hurley - was now a normal human being again. Also, how did Jack get out of the cave? Maybe he was turned into the Smoke Monster after all - because when we see his body outside the cave at the end it's very reminiscent of the scene with MiB after he was thrown into the cave and the Smoke Monster spat him out. --Lost3001 09:20, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Did anyone else notice that when Jack "Passed the baton" to Hurley, he didn't do a spell on the water before Hurley drank it? Desmond constant 10:04, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • On top of that, didn't Jacob's adopted mother also drink before having Jacob drink (something to do with them being equals)? I don't remember Jack doing that. I had made a comment to my wife that someone needed to leave a manual for Jack so he would know the incantation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zaggs (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T07:59:23.
      • For what I took it as, the new protector never was given rules or incantations. They were able to make their own rules. Mother never told Jacob the incantation. He just decided to "make one up" for Jack. Jack, on the other hand, is not an incantation kind of guy, so he simply just let the power pass with a drink. It's just like the young MIB said to young Jacob, "You can make up the rules in your own game." --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   13:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • The Smoke Monster was not created when MiB was thrown into the light, the Smoke Monster had been around long before that happened. MiB was killed ~2000 years ago, and we've see hieroglyphics of the Smoke Monster (in the temple) which have to date sometime around ~5000 years ago. The Smoke Monster was only released when MiB was thrown into the cave.--Skicow 13:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think it's clear that MIB is Smoky, from the various things he has said about and to Jacob. It's also clear that he's not the first smoke monster, given the glyphs that predate him, and the fact that the Mother knew what would happen to him in the cave.--Jackdavinci 20:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • When assuming a form, the smoke monster appears to assume some knowledge of the person. He knew things that Locke and Jack had done, for example. I think it's quite fair to say that MIB died and it was the proximity of a freshly fallen soul that allowed Smokey to emerge once again. -Deepone 22:09, May 24, 2010 (UTC)]
  • That doesn't sit well with me. Jacob was very clear that he created the smoke monster, it was his mistake. Is there no chance the hieroglyphics could have come after Smokey's creation?--Integrated (User / Talk) 11:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • for me there is no doubt that MiB became Smokey and was still able to inhabit bodies, including his own. But as to the prior existence of a "different" smokey I am more convinced than ever. Reinforced by the plug which was man-made and had some sort of glyphs on it. However it is possible that the Egyptian stuff, including the Temple and the Statue came after Mother but it doesn't really make much narrative sense.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   02:50, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • I like to think that Jacob's brother wasn't the first person to be transformed into a Smoke Monster, and the warning glyphs predate MiB. There was a corpse down by the source pool, so it's not like no one had ever been down there before (although, granted, if there is a procedure to Smokey's creation, this dead body wouldn't be one, since MiB's body got ejected from the cave). MannyF 20:04, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

So why in the alternate reality / Afterlife did they all not remember?

I accept that the last 6 years wasn't just Jack's mind blasting imaginary things as he died after Oceanic 815 crashed. Why follow other characters if this was the case? But my question is, if they all created this afterlife to be together again, why did they not remember each other from the beginning. They all needed to be reminded, and gathered by Desmond, which kind of defeats the purpose of a place they created to be together doesn't it?

Or is it that they are all living in their perfect afterlife (that is a reality in which they are happy in their own skin) and only when they need to be brought together (like go to the light) that they start remembering? Stoosepp 09:32, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • This is very subjective, but I believe that like Christian said, they had to have moved on, that is, from the things in their life that plagued them pre-island. They have to have done this before they were 'ready' to move on. shrodes 12:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Also, in the paranormal, supposedly ghosts don't realize they are ghosts -- they think they are living. It isn't until someone makes them realize that they are dead that they are able to move on. I'm not suggesting that in the flash-sideways, everyone is a ghost, per se. I just believe that this part of the Lost mythology is probably based on this premise. --Litany42 13:13, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I believe that the plane landing in the alternate reality is what they wanted their lives to be. They got a chance to rebuild what they wanted their realities to be on the other end of Oceanic Flight 815. However; they are reminded of how they are connected with all of the other passengers through their individual flashbacks. This explains why the Others aren't inside the church. The connection if the original Losties frames how they needed each other from day 1 on the beach. Also, for those in the church; those they met on the island were the most significant to them with the exception of Desmond and Penny. --21:27, May 24, 2010 (UTC)Jazzman6913--Jazzman6913 21:27, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Pictogram voting support!! I agree with Jazzman6913, when Jack remembers, it shows all of the lives of the survivors he has helped and touched from the moment the plane crashed. Before we knew was the FS was, and all of the bad things were going on on the Island I remember thinking to myself, I wish this was the REAL timeline because everyone really had what they wanted the most. With a couple of exceptions. I think they deserved to know what their lives would have been if the plane didn't crash. They couldn't have figured that out if they still knew each other. They kinda had their cake and ate it too...it definately was a moment of closure, everyone who died in OT were able to be with their loved ones and the example that Ben really genuinely was sorry for mudering Locke and told him so. Things like that made it make sense for me. The part I loved is that they didn't all die at once, it was before and after Jack. (Didn't make me cry less though ;) ) --Phryrosebdeco23 22:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Church roster

Explicitly absent:

  • Ana Lucia: "not ready" - she still is corrupt and can't be redeemed yet (the $125,000 Hurley gave her)*added by arullo* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arullo (talkcontribs) .
  • Ben: choice, maybe to be with Rousseau and Alex?
  • Widmore, Eloise, Daniel: Maybe to be be a family, and with Charlotte?
  • Michael: still an island ghost
  • David (Jack's son): because he doesn't actually exist?
    • Agreed. As noted elsewhere, perhaps David was Jack's creation to help him "let go" of his own father issues. By experiencing fatherhood, he learned to forgive Christian and himself. David wasn't in the church because he only existed in Jack's "mind." Briana2346 15:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Conspicuously absent:

  • Alex, Danielle: to be with Ben?- It seems likely that those three would move on together when they are all ready.--MyLinus 17:26, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Danielle's husband/team: ??
  • Anthony Cooper: yet to be redeemed?
  • Charlotte: to be with Daniel?
  • Eko/Yemi: actor availability? - Eko needed to be with Yemi in his afterlife because that was central to his life. *added by arullo* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arullo (talkcontribs) .
  • Jacob / MIB / Mother; Richard/Isabella: not part of Jack's group? - Again they had their own afterlife *added by arullo* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arullo (talkcontribs) .
  • Miles / Chang: He needed to be with his parents in his afterlife. *added by arullo* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arullo (talkcontribs) .
  • Walt / Vincent" Waiting for Michael? - He was with his dad in his afterlife. *added by arullo* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arullo (talkcontribs) .
  • Other random important people: Arzt, Frogurt, Nikki & Paulo, Scott & Steve, Helen, other redshirts, other random family members of Losties... - Helen was with Locke in the church. *added by arullo* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arullo (talkcontribs) .
    • Hellen wasn't in the church, was she? Because when Christian opened the door Locke was by himself. Please correct me if I'm wrong.--Phryrosebdeco23 08:22, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
      • She's definitely not in the church -random2502 22:34, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Charlie II, Yi Jeon
  • Lapidus: any ideas as to why he's not there, or anywhere in the FST for that matter?- It could be argued that he was not an important enough part of the Losties lives to be a part of their afterlife.--MyLinus 17:26, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

At church:

  • Jack & Kate & Christian
  • Boone & Shannon & Sayid
  • Rose & Bernard
  • Sawyer & Juliet
  • Hurley & Libby
  • Locke
  • Desmond & Penny
  • Charlie & Claire & Aaron
  • Jin & Sun & fetus Yi Jeon

--Jackdavinci 10:16, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Addition to continuity section

It's possible that I missed something, but it seemed like there must have been a missing scene where Ben was freed from being pinned under the large tree which had fallen on him. One minute they were straining in apparent vain to lift the tree which did not seem to be budging even with Sawyer's prying stick, and the next Ben walks over the rock face with the rest, not even limping. It would have made more sense if the tree hadn't fallen on him at all (except then Jack's buddies wouldn't have been absent from his struggles with MIB). Russella 11:19, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Action that has implicitly happened offscreen isn't a continuity problem.  Robert K S   tell me  12:17, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
This was noticeable to me too. Threw me off for a bit. Maybe the deleted scenes on the DVD will show us a few more minutes and Ben finally being freed shrodes 12:57, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The Island was shaking still and it showed the log had rolled partially off, so you assume that Ben (helped by Sawyer and Hugo) was able to squeeze through and got out. *added by arullo* - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by arullo (talkcontribs) .

I feel weird being the first to mention this, but this seems like a big deal - the plane that took off from the island is the Ajira plane - it's a smaller plane than 815, and it has weird, kinda tipped wings. BUT, later, just before Jack closes his eyes, he sees the plane go past above him, it looks like a bigger plane, with regular wings - it looks like 815. -- 19:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC) TheRubio

- I'm fairly certain the plane we see overhead is the afterlife version of Oceanic 815. --UvulaBob 21:31, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the plane flying over in the end-sequence, it is almost certainly the Ajira plane. The "tipped wings", or "winglets" on a Boeing 737-800 are almost impossible to see from directly below. However there are other distinguishable differences between the silhouette of a Boeing 737-800 and a Boeing 777-300, such as the tail protruding through the plane of the elevators on the 777 and not on the 737 or the width of the wing where it is attached to the fuselage being much wider on the 777 than on the 737. Comparing that to the images of the plane flying over would lead to the conclusion that it is a 737-800 and thus the Ajira 316. --Morsdreng 22:50, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Irony?

I didn't want to remove this because maybe I'm not thinking of something, but I fail to see how "Jacob was killed by Ben and kicked into fire. The Man in Black was killed by Kate and kicked onto a plateau of rocks." is ironic. Danh916 12:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • It should probably just read "Jacob was killed after being kicked towards fire, the MiB was killed after being kicked towards water" sounds a little more ironic that way.--WhyDidntUKnow 12:18, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • What's ironic is that the MIB in the form of John Locke fell from a hight and presumably broke his back, only Jacob wasn't there to save him this time.

Jack's life's defining moment is how he gives his life in order to save the island, however, in the fifth season finale, he blows the entire island up and sinks it to the bottom of the ocean. JudeEh 15:18, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

We now know the bomb failed to detonate. --- Balk Of Fametalk 19:03, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
We don't know that. The bomb could have been part of The Incident, and the consequential Flash popped them back to the present. We only know that the Island never actually sunk, and there was no timeline split. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 19:19, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
**Can we even officially rule that the bomb had nothing to do with flash sideways "waiting room?" Juliette's 'line' that "it worked" would seem to indicate that Jack's actions (detonating the bomb) might have been responsible for creating the pre-afterlife space that they could all finally meet in and come to terms with their lives. This might go some lengths in explaining why the sideways afterlife appeared to begin at the moment that the island would have changed the course of their lives had it existed. It would also allow Jack's actions and faith in detonating the bomb to retain their value, instead of him just being wrong about the intended consequences (especially since he declared that he's never been more sure of anything in his life to Kate just beforehand!). If the detonation itself was responsible for their afterlife meeting place, he DID actually create a timeline without the island in their lives (and without much of the character-defining baggage that flawed them in the first place). This provides a great contrast for them to compare against their actual lives; they can come to terms with their faults and accept that their time and experiences together during their real lives was worth any hardship they may have resented at the time. --Hart parkridge 19:59, May 26, 2010 (UTC)hart parkridge
  • I now think, what I thought before I accepted the bomb split the timeline idea, which is, that the Incident was only an incident, and not a catastrophic, possibly world ending event, because the bomb blocked the release of energy long enough to build the Swan. It always happened and is the reason Eloise interfered in their lives after reading Daniel's journal. A fate of humankind story wrapped inside the whole Jacob/MIB fate of humankind story. Annarboral 04:01, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, wait

I'm confused. I thought Jack put the magic rock back in the source. Why didn't he unlock the UFO ending?--Gibbeynator 13:12, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

What? —Josiah Rowe 18:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Somehow there must have been a glitch, because he got the dog ending instead. --Amedeus8 21:20, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
To unlock the UFO ending you have to beat The Island in two years or less. They did three. :)--Pittsburghmuggle 01:01, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
He did unlock the alternate "Jack in a T-shirt and jeans" costume at the end though.Trilance 02:48, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Is this just a generalized gaming joke, or is it based on something specific that I'm just not getting? —Josiah Rowe 23:39, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Artemisstrong 07:07, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
HHAHAHAHAHHA good one--Cc7asan 19:02, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
The sad part is, the corpse in the cave had a first-aid spray. He didn't have to die. MannyF 21:40, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Man, if Jack didn't get Julia killed and beat The Island, he would've got the secret trailer for Lost 2. Should've saved before the bomb went off... [[[User:Qiaoshu|Qiaoshu]] 23:39, May 28, 2010 (UTC)]

Transcript of Christian/Jack Dialogue

C: Hey, kiddo. J: Dad?

C: Hello, Jack.

J: I don't understand...you died.

C: Yes, I did.

J: Then, how are you here right now?

C: How are YOU here?

J: I died too...

C: It's okay. It's okay, son (hug)

J: I love you, dad...are you real?

C: I sure hope so...yeah, I'm real. You're real, everything that's ever happened to you is real. All those people in the church...they're real, too.

J: They're all...they're all dead?

C: Everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some of them before you, some long after you.

J: Why are they all here now?

C: Well, there is no "Now" here.

J: Where are we, dad?

C: This is a place that you--that you all made together so that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed all of them and they needed you.

J: For what?

C: To remember....and to let go.

J: Kate--she said we were leaving.

C: Not leave--No--Moving on.

J: Where are we going?

C: Let's go find out.

Ok sorry but whoever wrote this made a poor effort. This is not an accurate transcript. PeterR 16:15, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I just rewatched the scene and edited this portion. The transcript should be more accurate now.--MyLinus 17:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone's Take?

Most series finales are horrible. Arguably, the "Lost" finale would be even harder to get right because (a) it has to tie up a lot of loose ends and (b) tie them up in such a way that all the fans are happy with. (I think that as we've seen from Lostpedia, this is a hard thing to do...)

So, how did this episode rate? Pass, fail? Anything left out?

Personally, I think the episode as a whole worked extremely well. It did tie up the story, and ultimately was a satisfying ending. I also liked the fact that everyone who was supposed to be a couple hooked up again at the end. This could have come off as hokey, but I think they nailed it, making it touching but not sappy.

And the last shot, with Jack closing his eye while looking up in the bamboo forest, was perhaps the most poignant since BJ spelled out "Goodbye" in MASH. I also loved that Vincent was there with him, so he did not "die alone" -- as Hatchbanger mentioned above, this was a stroke of genius.

Honestly, one of the best series finales of all time. --Litany42 13:40, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Soppy labradors make me cry :(

Mitchincredible 13:46, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

This is better suited to blogs or forums. The Talk page is designed for the discussion of the article itself. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  13:47, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Our Mutual Friend...

One of the things I hoped to see was Desmond, at some point, reading "Our Mutual Friend". Didn't happen of course, but I'm realizing now that *he* was everyone's mutual friend -- he was the one who started to "wake up" the Losties.

Is this too strained? Or do I have something here? Not quite sure where the reference should go though... --Litany42 15:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

im thinking all will be revealed in series 7!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sandwichking!! (talkcontribs) .

  • When Ben was talking to Locke, explaining what had happened to him, I was hoping he'd say, "I had a run in with our mutual friend," and go on to explain the guy that ran Locke over beat him up. It would have been a nice inclusion. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 19:21, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Desmond thought he was going to die in season 2, that's when he found the note from Penny in the book. The writers have therefore sprung that plot bit already. Desmond probably read it sometime during his years on the sailboat with Penny figuring he has had close brushes with death already so he may as well go on and get it read.--Pittsburghmuggle 21:13, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

This is a wiki, people. Our Mutual Friend -- Jbillones 20:02, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

You're a wiki! -- Clayburn talk contributions email 02:34, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Why Couldn't Jacob Do it Himself? And How Did Widmore know it Could be Done?

If all it took to make Smokey killable was to turn the lights off for a bit, why couldn't Jacob do it? Why'd he have to set up such a "long con"? Especially with Desmond hanging around for like 3 years before Oceanic 815 even crashed. Jacob could've recruited him, stuck him down the hole, got him to turn the lights off, shot Smokey before he even knew WTF, and then got Desmond to turn the lights back on. Or Smokey could've done the same, tricking Desmond into 'uncorking' the island. You can argue that neither Smokey nor Jacob knew Desmond was immune to electromagnetism/the light. But that's kinda odd, considering they both seem to know everything about everyone, and would have noticed Desmond surviving an EMP blast (not to mention noticing Dharma's EM research). It begs the question, if neither of the two most all-knowing characters could figure out that Desmond can survive the light, how did Charles Widmore find out? Even if Widmore knew about the light, it seems unlikely he'd know more than Jacob, or Smokey, who actually seemed to live down there. So, either Smokey and/or Jacob could have easily killed each other and/or destroyed the island at any time, but didn't do it for inexplicable reasons; Or, the two oldest surviving residents of the island, both with the ability to look into people's pasts, couldn't figure out in 2000 years, what some random old guy did in a couple months. Seems like more evidence of sloppy writing. James Joseph Emerald

  • This is what I think: Jacob knew Desmond was special in some way. Maybe Desmond wasn't immune to electromagnetism until he was first exposed to it on the Island. Maybe it was the Islands unique electromagnetism that differs from other electromagnetism throughout the world that allowed him to survive. Perhaps, it wasn't until Desmond survived his first encounter with the electromagnetism that Jacob and MIB found out jsut how special he was. Also, Jacob couldn't have done it by himself. Stepping into the water at the source started the EMP or sorts. Only Desmond could survive that energy. It is only after the source was unplugged that anyone could replug it back in. Again, this is just my thoughts. --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   16:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Also... it's easy to think the easy way.. but living the story is diferent. You know what happened so you can say "why didn't they do it this or that way?". But when you don't know what's goning to happen you can think so much. Maybe Jacob thought that was the easy way to do it... maybe also MiB thought that was the easy way (with their knowledge and experience at that moment) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stabilini (talkcontribs) .
  • I still think it's a stretch that nobody ever noticed Desmond surviving the EMP until years later. But I guess if you try hard you could swallow it. However, what about the Widmore thing? Jacob never mentions Desmond, and Smokey seems surprised to see him. So how is it that only Widmore has the idea of using him on 'The Source' (presuming Widmore even has seen the Source, knows where it is, or knows its function)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James Joseph Emerald (talkcontribs) .
    • Eloise perhaps knew of Desmond's unique abilities after the events of The Constant. She could have shared this with Widmore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danh916 (talkcontribs) .

I dont agree with the comment regarding sloppy writing at all. Throughout the entire Lost saga, there have been countless images of people that have been dead, returning to haunt the people they influenced when they were alive. Therefore, it could be argued that Jacob himself was tricked into believing that his brother was in fact alive. As well as this, Jacob was portrayed as a non-violent man everytime us as an audience were introduced to him, most clearly shown in the episode with him and his mother. The only time we ever see him get angry that i can recall, is when he beats his brother to a pulp (i except this is extreme violence!). However, it is clear to see that he instantly regrets his actions, and therefore the sense of destroying who he believes to be his brother, is against his nature. What i love abut the whole Lost campaign, is that it is so open for interpretation to everybody! It can mean absolutely anything, to absolutely. Of course there will always be bits that people dont agree with, or think are ridiculous. I take my hat off to the cast, for not giving up on the concept after a couple of seasons, as so many previous dramas have. --Ltanfield 18:50, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Jacob beat up Richard pretty good in Ab Aeterno when Richard first went to the statue. Slimeham 02:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • DESMOND DID NOT DEVELOP THE RESISTANCE UNTIL THE HATCH INCIDENT IN WHICH HE HAD TO TURN THE SAFE KEY! Which was set into action by the smoke monster/ the man in black taking on the form of Yemi and telling Eko to ask John about the question mark. After that incident, Desmond still needed to find his constant to be able to overcome the electromagnetism. After "The Constant," Desmond did not return to the island until Widmore brought him back. Jacob could not kill the Smoke Monster/ The man in black because it contained a part of his brother whom he was not able to kill because of the rule 'mother' made when she was the island's keeper. Jacob knew about Desmond and, obviously, so did Smokie since it was part of his own 'long con.' Jacob must have known that in order for someone to be able to kill Smokie he had to let the situation develop. Based on the evidence stated above, the problem is not so much sloppy writing as it is sloppy watching.--WeAllDieSometimeKiddo 02:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)WeAllDieSometimeKiddo
  • I'm with WeAllDieSometimeKiddo and Ltanfield on this one, as you can see what I wrote in the Theories Page [2], and in my blog here [3] their is no sloppy writing, the whole plot is nothing but genius, espcially if its starting point is not in the crash of oceanic flight 815, but whether the blast of the hydrogen bomb by Juliet; That created a series of events, that led desmond being the fail safe in a timeloop, Explains why juliet insisted that "It worked" and unveil Smokey Long Con or should i say Jacob Long Con...--Theone3 16:13, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • We don't know that for sure. It could have been something birth-related. It could be the fact that he spent 3 years of his life in a room surrounded by electromagnetic energy that his body learned to adapt to it. The fail-safe might have the hydrogen bomb beneath it and the hydrogen bomb might not have been detonated. Instead, what sent the Losties back to 2007 was a surge of electromagnetic energy, and Dharma put a system of entering numbers to stop the surge that came every 108 minutes, and they built the fail-safe as a measure of last resort in case the system somehow fails. Anyway, Jacob chose Desmond to be the fail-safe because he was immune to electromagnetic energy, and as Widmore had said, Jacob had visited him and told him about Desmond. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cc7asan (talkcontribs) 2010-05-26T14:08:21.
    • He was not born with these abilities and the proof of that lies with that all of the "abilities" of Desmond, i.e. Electromagnetism Resistance,To be unstuck in Time, and get its foretelling ability at least for a short while, happened only after the electromagnetism release through him, and even in its own words to Charlie: “You do not want to know what happened to me when I turned the failsafe key”. But even if I go with you on that thinking that he was born with that abilities, he's surviving the discharge got the attention of Widmore (in Widmore own words saying he is the only man in the world, that he is aware of, to have survived an electromagnetic event) and by that being the cause for bringing him back to the island (after Ben failed). --Ozba1 20:05, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Jacob being non-violent or not is debatable (I mean, he did get a LOT of people killed by bringing them to the island. And a lot of said deaths seemed rather unnecessary, like Libby, Shannon, Boone, Nikki/Paolo, etc., but that's another issue) however it doesn't explain why Smokey didn't try it until the end, or why a 'long con' was required. If Desmond's exposure to the EM detonation caused his unique abilities (which is also debatable, considering he was able to meet Faraday in the past, before he was exposed and had any time-related powers, yet still perceive it in the present), there was still a large window of opportunity for him to be manipulated by Smokey or Jacob. If it was simply a matter of Desmond needing a constant, you'd think Smokey or Jacob would try to find one for him, rather than have him leave, and risk him never coming back (and being surprised when he does). I'm a writer myself, and I have to say, I think you guys give the LOST creators waaay too much credit. I mean, the writing on LOST is very smart, but it's not genius. In fact, there's hundreds of quite major plot holes (as of The End, which I was hoping would plug the biggest ones), and instances of Chekhov's gun (Walt, the numbers, Hurley's sudden abilities, etc). If they're not important to the story, don't waste time on them: cut them out. It's the most basic principle of writing. Otherwise, it's just sloppy. LOST is so full of holes and missing pieces you'd probably have to do more writing than the actual writers just to fill it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James Joseph Emerald (talkcontribs) 2010-05-26T20:45:02 .
Pictogram voting oppose I don't think it was the unplugging that make MIB killable, I think it was the fact that Jack was the new protector. Mother's protection bond only stopped the brothers from hurting one another, Jack had no involvement in that rule, and so he was able to hurt MIB. That's my interpretation anyway.
But Jack isn't even the one who killed him. Kate shot him. Unplugging the island made the MIB normal and killable. I think once the plug was pulled MIB was vulnerable, heck Vincent could have mauled him to death.
To answer the first question in this title/section: There's a very good reason that Jacob didn't just recruit Desmond to pull the plug and mortalise Smokey - first of all the island would start sinking, second of all Jacob would give up his own mortality which would make it a very risky manoeuvre. Turning off the light was Jacob's measure of last resort; that's why he waited till the last second to transfer his powers - only after Widmores failed attempt to do.. whatever he was actually going to do to neutralize Smokey ..Jacob was forced to send Jack & Co. to the source. That's how I interpret it. --NorthernRealmJackal 09:55, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Eko?

  • The article currently states that Eko appeared in archive footage. While I don't doubt that's true, I personally didn't notice it. Could someone tell me exactly when he appears? --LeoChris 15:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Ive looked through all the flashbacks and I see no eko. Walt is in Lockes but I dont see eko in anyones. I messaged the guy who added him will see what he says, i could be wrong. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  15:52, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
I thought Eko's hand was briefly seen baptizing Aaron during Claire's flash? Am I wrong about that? --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   16:02, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that was during the clip show, not the episode. Could be wrong though. --Golden Monkey 16:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Eko's hand was indeed seen during the clip show. But not during the actual episode, if I recall correctly. --LeoChris 16:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
I just rewatched the scene where Claire remembers, and there are no clips of Eko. Just Kate and Charlie. --Golden Monkey 17:26, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Storyline Analysis

  • This here" * Everything that happened on the island, happened in real life. No one on the island was dead the whole time - they all survived the initial plane crash, etc. In the final episode, Jack died, Hurley became protector with Ben as his number 2, and everyone else who died on the island or elsewhere, died. Those who died without fulfilling their purpose (i.e. Michael) were doomed to forever be whispers on the island. Those who fulfilled their purpose (Jin&Sun, Sayid, etc.) were allowed to go to the Flash Sideways timeline after they died, where they searched for the truth and were able to right their wrongs, i.e. make the right decisions about their life that they should've made in the first place. Once they saw the truth/their past on the island/remembered it, only then were they ready to "move on" and come to the church, which ultimately led them to heaven. Anna Lucia Cortez fulfilled her purpose on the island. However, being a corrupt police officer in the sideways timeline, apparently made the same mistake she made in during her life time, violating her oath as a police officer by accepting Desmond's bribe event though she was key in getting them out of jail albeit illegally. Thusly she was "not ready" as Desmond said to Hurley and so she was not invited to "move on". Ben Linus chose to stay behind, possibly to be with Daniel Rousseau and her daughter Alex, both still unaware of the past life on the Island." Was really more of a theory than storyline analysis. Based on a lot of (probably correct) speculation. However, as no one can confirm or deny, I'm going to move it to the theories section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ErikGerm (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T11:13:15.

Help Me Trace the Gun that Defeated MiB?

  • Ok, so Kate shot and incapacited MiB with the gun she ripped from Sawyer's hands (and previously tried to use it to not result on MiB, foreshadowing that moment.) I think it has a special symbolism as the only visible result of the rather unproductive and unnecesary scene with Sawyer meeting MiB at the well was that Sawyer stole that rifle from Ben, (whom we explicitly were shown charging it in the first scenes of the episode.) If that's the same rifle Ben had been carrying around since Dr. Linus, it was given to him by MiB himself to help him escape from Ilana. Can anyone tell if we can trace it even further back?Maokun 16:14, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • That's a good point, and would be interesting if it was that gun. However, my thoughts were that Ben took it from Zoe after the incident with Widmore. "She's armed," he had said. I don't remember with what specifically, but I thought she had a rifle. I'll rewatch today, and maybe notice. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 17:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • AFAIR, she had only a gun Devotee 00:54, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
      • Ben had the rifle as Widmore and Zoe entered the house, he aimed it at Zoe when she was searching the house 4:43, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
    • It'd be cool if it could be traced all the way back to the rifle that Kelvin points at Desmond when he first washes ashore. James Joseph Emerald 01:48, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • From what I can tell, its the rifle that Bram brought with him, that Frank later took. IMoonKnight 02:36, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
    • It could be Bram's Mini-14, but The Others had many of them all over the Island, I'm sorry to say it's probably untraceable. --Ille qui nos omnes servabit 02:44, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
      • It makes more sense to be Bram's gun. Bram brought it to the Island (at Jacob's request: all part of his plan?) and tried to use it to kill MIB. that didn't work, and Bram was killed. MIB took the gun into his stash. Later, in Dr Linus, he places the gun 200 yards away from Ben so that Ben can make a mad dash to it, and shoot a pursuing Ilana (as a sentimental side note, the gun is present for the heart-wrenching "I'll have you" scene). Ben carries the gun around with him for a while until Sawyer meets him at the well ans elbows him in the face. Kate will later take the gun from Sawyer...you know the rest.

Jack's neck wound

I'll have to watch the episode again but what was the origin of Jack's neck wound that kept bleeding throughout the flash-sideways story line? Steamwalker 16:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Flocke cut his neck when he and Jack were fighting on the cliff. LostAtSea 16:43, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Although the first cut he notices, on the plane in the first episode of season six, is in the wrong spot, as far as I could tell. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James Joseph Emerald (talkcontribs) .
  • Jack's FST "appendectomy" scar that he first noticed in "The Lighthouse" also originates from the Island timeline. Specifically, Locke stabbing him in the side. Hallx049 17:18, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

C.S. Lewis and Christian Allegory

Has anyone noticed the parallels to C.S. Lewis's Perelandra? In the book, two men from Earth travel to Venus, which the inhabitants call Perelandra. There they find that the planet is covered by an ocean, and on the surface of this ocean are floating islands. It is an "unfallen" paradise like Eden. One man, Weston, becomes possessed by a demon who overwhelms Weston's own personality and seeks to corrupt and destroy this paradise. The other man, Ransom, becomes determined to protect the paradise from Weston's evil designs. Eventually, the only way Ransom can prevail is to confront Weston in a desperate physical fight, and, eventually, he smashes Weston's head with a rock. In the fight, Ransom suffers a wound from which he never fully recovers. The parallels aren't perfect, but they are there. Given that one of the characters in Lost is named C.S. Lewis--and that the ending became a sort of allegory with the "Christian shepherd" leading them all into the light--I don't think this connection is too far-fetched! --RS—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rstewart (talkcontribs) .

Oh, very nice! I'd noticed the parallels with The Last Battle in my user blog, and another user noted that the flash-sideways reality is a bit like The Great Divorce... this episode was chock full of C.S. Lewis! —Josiah Rowe 18:57, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Thank you so much! I read that book when I was young, and I've been trying to remember what it was called and who it was by ever since. Sorry, go back to what you were doing. That was just bothering me for years upon years :D --Amedeus8 21:37, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Your blog draws excellent parallels with The Last Battle, Josiah! I had that one in the back of my mind, too... especially the part when the characters realize they are dead. But I hadn't thought about The Great Divorce. I am now completely convinced that C.S. Lewis is the major inspiration for for how Lost played out. Thanks for the comments!--Rstewart 05:19, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Glad to be of service! —Josiah Rowe 23:45, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Co-Stars

  • Just wondering, is there any specific reason why the co-stars aren't listed in the article yet? Were they not listed in the USA's end credits? (They were listed in Canada's ... but we didn't get the footage of the empty plane, just a trailer for CSI... so it's possible our whole set of credits was different.) --LeoChris 17:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
I added them, there weren't many. Even if one of them shares a name with a Doctor Who character...--Golden Monkey 17:42, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The Incident and the FST

So, in the grand scheme of things, what role did the incident play in bringing about this conclusion? Obviously, the FST wasn't created by Juliette blowing up the nuke since it turned out to be an afterlife. Perhaps her dying words of "it worked" were meant to signify that she could see into the FST and that it brought everyone together. Thoughts? What, in the end, did this huge event that they took a whole season to explain end up accomplishing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frankqb (talkcontribs) .

You could say The Incident, as referenced in the swan video, caused the need for the button to be pushed to release excess electromagnetism, and with Desmond turning the failsafe leading to his unique properties, or, if not causing his electromagnatism immunity, at least bringing them to light. Danh916 18:20, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Also, the H-bomb that Juliet sets off combines with the EMP and is able to send all the Losties back into their own present. Had that never occurred, Jacob would be doomed without most of his candidates, especially those that became crucial to stopping MIB. --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   18:24, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Indeed. The incident was the perforation of the magnetic pocket and always happened; as it's widely agreed that the failsafe of the hatch was the core of Jughead, what most likely happened is that the course-correction capabilities of the Island aligned the Losties stranded in 1977 to their own time, right before Juliet actually detonated the nuke, radically altering history. Introducing the FST in the next season was just a big red herring to make us believe Faraday's plan had worked.Maokun 02:46, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • That itself was a bit convenient. Why would they be sent back to their own present? Smashing a hydrogen bomb with a rock doesn't seem like the most accurate way to time-travel. Seems more likely they'd end up in some other random time period. Also, with regards to the button-pressing... why have a button? Why not just flip the failsafe in the first place? The Incident seemed like it was ill-thought-through. James Joseph Emerald 18:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
The nuke detonation was what always happened Miles was right when he said the little nuke was the incident. The theme of Whatever happened happened proved true. The survivors were always the ones who caused the incident. They never changed the past they were just a part of it. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  18:40, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • The nuke never went off. The white flash was just that--a time flash. The Lostaways accomplished their (The Island's?) purpose for being in that place/time period--to bring about the events later to be known as "The Incident". Once they accomplished that, The Island (The source?) moved them on to their next intended tasks. If you look back at the entire series' major events with knowledge of the conclusion and the idea that the "The Island (and Jacob) needing the Lostees to protect it (by bringing about human interventions, or otherwise), things begin to piece together. The horses were led to the water...and they drank. Juliet's words seemed to be an "echo" of her eventual experience in the "Afterlife" with Sawyer.--TatsX 18:45, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Juliet believed it worked because she saw into the Afterlife. Desmond had the same experience after being microwaved. That's why he was so smug. He thought there was something in an alternate timeline that he could use, go to, or take from. That's what he was wrong about when he failed to do whatever he hoped after angioplastying the Island's heart. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 19:32, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think Juliet's comment via Miles "It worked" was just a red herring. If I remember correctly she also said "It worked" to Sawyer in FS timeline when she showed him the vending machine trick. That's the same point as the "We should get coffee sometime" lines. The "It worked" comment was from that same conversation. Slimeham 02:37, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The incident was central to the ending because without this incident, there would have never been a hatch. The incident...the drill hitting the electromagnetic pocket, the nuke being detonated to stabilize the electromagnetism (presumably long enough to construct the hatch)...caused all the building materials to get sucked into the hole blocking most of the source. To control the electromagnetism that was still leaking out, the hatch and computer button system were built. I presume it was done in conjunction with Jacob since the counter used hieroglyphs and the computer relied on the candidates numbers, but that I am not positive about. As a result of the hatch being built, Desmond wound up on the island, pushing the button. After 815 arrived, the Smoke Monster put his 'long con' into action by taking on the appearance of Yemi and telling Eko to ask Locke about the question mark which eventually led to Locke keeping Eko from pushing the button and allowing the electromagnetic source to reach 'unsafe' levels. Desmond then had to activate the fail safe key and was subsequently exposed to the electromagnetism giving him the ability to pull the Island's plug. The smoke monster believed this would give him an opportunity to destroy the island but Jacob realized it would give the candidates the opportunity to kill the Smoke Monster. So, without the incident.......none of this happens.--WeAllDieSometimeKiddo 03:12, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The Incident is probably the most important thing that happened on the Island as you can see what I wrote in the Theories Page [5], and in my blog here [6] It explains why the incident is so important, why Juliet said it worked even though the flash sideway was not created by it and why it is the center of the timeloop in which Desmond became the failsafe...--Theone3 16:18, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Kate's dress

From mistakes: "At the concert, Kate was wearing a strapless dress, and no evidence of a gunshot wound was present, despite Jack's knife scar and neck bleeding." Judging from what Christian said Kate died years later. Given that no one else showed off wounds from the main timeline, I'd assume that Jack is the odd one out here, not Kate. --Golden Monkey 18:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  18:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Ya, Agreed. Jack died of his wounds that's why they were able to bleed through. Kate on the other hand did not die of that gun shot wound.--WhyDidntUKnow 17:05, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • That's not exactly true. Shannon and Libby didn't seem to be bleeding from their gunshots, Sayid and Illana looked fine despite both holding bombs when they died, et cetera. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James Joseph Emerald (talkcontribs) 2010-05-26T20:56:35.
  • i'm guessing they didn't want the characters look like they came from an ending of Beetlejuice Jedivulcan 06:43, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • John Locke did not have his scar around his eyes. This would have given away to much of the ending I guess--Rikdewinter 10:05, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
  • Did anyone else notice that Kate is wearing a black dress for the concert and up until she enters the church. When she reunites with Jack in the church her clothing has changed completely - green shirt and grey pants from what I can remember. VLost 10:19, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
    • I did notice. I guess it was just more practical for "moving on" in :)--Baker1000 12:19, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
    • Everyone had a change of clothes that was in the church, Shannon is now wearing red, Sun's is purple but not the same pattern as in the hospital. Juliet is not wearing a collared blouse - but simular color, James' shirt is now red/tan, Sayid's is now a short sleeve but when he saved Shannon he had on a long sleeve striped shirt. Boone didn't have on the jacket, Claire's dress is different - with different pattern and ruffles. So I do believe everyone (minus Jack/Christian) had a different outfit on. Much more classy for movin' on ;) --Phryrosebdeco23 11:03, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Final UAQ List

2 things here. First, there are UAQ from this specific episode, and as such, there should be a section for them. Second, now that the show is over, how about an article listing every UAQ throughout the series? I think that would be extremely relevant. -- Xbenlinusx 18:37, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support Agree with OP. Just because this was the final episode doesn't mean there are legit UAQ. If just because there will be no more LOST and this is the last episode is a reason why there is no UAQ then they might as well delete all the UAQ in every episode. Either this episode gets an UAQ section, if not then create just one page dedicated to UAQ and delete the sections on every episode page. --LOST-Frink 04:37, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Just because they'll never be answered is no reason not to have a UQ section for the ep. Good things to muse on and theorize on in looking back on the series as a whole. Otherwise, yes, might as well remove UQ from all eps. There are still a lot of good/valid questions out there: "what is the Island?" being prolly one of the biggest that's left to the imagination. Spiral77 18:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Flashback?

I deleted this once and someone restored it so I'll ask about it first before deleting it again... Why do we have flashbacks listed for each of the characters? The flashes in this episode were entirely flashsideways. If someone's going to try and make the argument that the visions they saw of their lives were flashbacks, then there's no precedent for that in other articles.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support Agreed, shouldn't be listed. (Kdc2 20:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC))

Kristen's answers

Kristen dos Santos from E spoke with some of the behind the scenes Lost people, and here is what she found out:

Answers:

  • The "help me" voice, the eye, Christian, etc in the cabin were all MIB
  • There will some answers about Walt on the DVD
  • 108 on the lighthouse wheel - the name was not important
  • MIB's name was Samuel which means "Name of God" or "God has heard"- Kristen thinks Mother named him that because she originally thought he would be her replacement- Actually Samuel means "God Heard" in Hebrew. Shosh16
  • Rapidly changing weather - the protector of the island had the ability to control the weather, so they could for example bring ships to the island, but they could also subconsciously affect the weather with their emotional state such as the storm when Jack is fighting Locke

Theories:

  • Jin was the Kwon candidate (though this might be Kristen's pet theory, she justifies it by noting that Sun would have been let off the hook for being a Mom, but she doesn't address if she was a candidate before she became a Mom).
  • Last scene with the plane crash - she thinks it's just season one B-roll footage to have a nice image for the credits
  • Numbers - she thinks that Hurley's bad luck related to the numbers was related to what would happen if the light went out

From http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b182505_lost_want_know_man_in_blacks_real_name.html --Jackdavinci 20:25, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

    • Does anyone know if this would be Cannon or not? I'm not good with knowing what is and what isn't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phryrosebdeco23 (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T18:01:12.
      • This seems to be entirely a farce, how could the eye and Christian both be MIB at the same time? Why no monster sounds if he was making the image to Hurley? We know now that Christian was the spirit guide, obivoulsy his plans had to coincide with MIBs to eventually kill him, it is more logical that Christian was Christian. Also, MIB's name isn't really anything, it was never mentioned. If the protector controls the weather, does that mean Jacob was pissed off every time it rained? Mitchincredible 00:10, May 25, 2010 (UTC
        • You are comparing your own pet theory against inside info. Christian is no spirit guide, he was MiB all the time (except in the Church scenes.) He was Christian when he lead Jack to the abyss, he was Christian when he led Jack to the caves, he was Cristian when he recruited and contaminated Claire, he was Christian when he told Locke to use the Donkey Wheel and to tell Jack he said "hi" (to convince him) and that he had to die (to be able to take over his appearance). There's no reason or indication to believe there were times were Christian was not MiB.Maokun 02:56, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • I still disagree, if it's inside scoop as in the source has gotten it direct from the creators, then the creators are really didn't sort it out well... The cabin scenes don't make sense at all until the Claire scene, and even then Claire distinctly discriminates between meeting her father and MIB, she can also tell the difference between Locke and MIB. Christian uttered 'Let it go' over the Hydra speaker to Jack, he also appeared off island (which MIB has never been seen to do). The plans that MIB had also directly coincided with the plans against the MIB in the end, it is simply that people would mistake that since the means are the same, it must be the same plan, which is simply not true according to The End. Of course, I'm willing to concede the ambiguity given around the Cabin, Christian, the volcano and Annie (aka. Major crap not touched on) are merely ways to keep the show alive through discussion and forum troll battles TO THE DEATH! Considering that, it's a matter of perception and I'm keeping to mine, after all, in the end, both possibilities end with the same result. Mitchincredible 09:34, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • I just remembered another one, we have never seen MIB transcend time, his timeline has been very linear, however Locke encountered wheel Christian when the statue was still intact. Christian has been seen to transcend time in The End, appearing in the FST and being fully aware that the existence was disjointed from time. Mitchincredible 10:49, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
            • Interestingly, Jack started seeing his father and Kate started seeing Claire in LA only after 3 years, right after Locke left the Island. remember how Jack saw Christian when a smoke alarm activated? It seems to me that since the very first meeting of Locke and the smoke monster (which left Locke unharmed and happy), MiB somehow "installed" a bit of himself in Locke, which also explain how did he jump through times along with him. Note also that Flocke had all Locke's memories from outside of the Island right up to the moment he died.Maokun 14:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
              • There’s no reason to assume that Locke had smokey install anything in him, that is even worse than my speculation, he merely flashed Locke, always we could assume that since he did the same thing to Kate, the visions should’ve been happening anyway before Locke arrived (remember Kate and Juliet cuffed together?). Though I do believe that it would explain Kate’s vision of Claire... Another important thing – The island can stop people from dying, like Michael (remember when Michael was trying to shoot himself? Locke wasn’t around with Smokey Vista to influence anything), however, the island clearly didn’t make any attempt to stop Ben from finishing off Locke. We can assume that: For Jack to kill the monster and save the island AND fulfil his destiny, Jacob needed to die to pass on protectorship to Jack, for Jacob to die, Locke needed to die so Smokey would take his image to influence Ben to kill Jacob, for Locke to die, the island simply needed to tell him that he had to die, because it was fricken Locke and he’d listen to anything. Christian was the voice of the island, he was the guide that was used, he told Locke he had to die, he told Michael he can go! Mitchincredible 23:51, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • Just to clarify some things, Kristen was only referring to the various cabin scenes - the eye, the rocking chair, the help me voice, Christian. She didn't address the Christian scenes outside of the cabin. MIB doesn't make smoky noises when he's shapeshifting, so I don't know why the lack of smoky noises would be a concern. Although Claire thinks her father and MIB are different people, we saw MIB admit to her later that he was conning her. --Jackdavinci 18:17, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Look the guy asks about the scene in 3x20 at the cabin yet she begins refering as if she was asked about 4x01 when we see christian so i can see the confusion, regardless I take her word for it. She didnt confirm anything I hadnt strongly suspected she kind of just reafirmed my guesses, I guess whether you believe her depends on your opinion on the subject. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:01, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I watched the clip and I thought, while she has been on the set talking to the cast and crew for years, I just kinda thought that "a reliable source" really doesn't work for me as to answering important questions. I was satisfied with the idea that MiB doesn't have a name. ;) --Phryrosebdeco23 19:50, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Also remember this chick is REAL unreliable i usually go back and read spoilers after the eps air just wondering what was spoiled and i believe pre season 5 she said a very relaible source told her Sawyer, Juliet and the other time travelers would be the first people to find Jin.........WRONG!!!!!!!! She also said before 4x06 that Juliet would initiate the kiss with Jack................WRONG!!!!!!!! So shes very very unreliable, but like i said she didnt confirm anything to major so i believe her but for the sake of integrity of the site, leave it off. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  02:47, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Jin and Sun flash-sideways?

Why are Jin and Sun listed as having a flash-sideways? Sayid isn't because he's dead and he wasn't in the main timeline. Shouldn't we take Jin and Sun off for the same reason? Gefred7112 21:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

With Sayid we can say that was really Hurley's. But there's one flash-sieways that has only dead characters in it: Jin, Sun and Juliet. The focus of the scene is clearly on Jin & Sun, not Juliet, and there's no one else it could be. So that's why. --Golden Monkey 21:21, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Considering all the characters are dead, I don't see how being dead disqualifies any of them. --- Balk Of Fametalk 21:26, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. Everyone else in the flash-sideways is just as dead as Jin or Sun, so personally I would list them as having a flash-sideways (and maybe Sayid too). --Golden Monkey 21:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Lockes been dead for a full season yet hes had like 6 fs episodes, naomi even had a fb after dying. Death dq nobody. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  23:16, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Why isn't Sayid listed? Sayid's flashsideways was the part where he hooks up with Shannon.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  00:24, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • So Sun, Jin and Sayid are added, and not other dead characters like Charlie, Shannon and Juliet. If you add Sun, Jin and Sayis than other dead characters should be added otherwise just remove Sayid, Jin, Sun. I mean everyone is dead, we should just add everyone then. Buffyfan123 00:52, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with adding all the characters. Although your argument is flawed. Sayid, Jin and Sun have flashsideways specifically focused on them, while the others don't.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:33, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that if we list Sun/Jin/Sayid/Locke as centricity or flash that we should also do this for allthe other characters (Juliet, Shannon, Boone, Rose, Bernard, Eloise, Daniel, Charlotte etc.)--NK-Metaltalkcontributions 11:16, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Rather than listing all the different Losties, why don't we just put You All Everybody?  :) -- Jbillones 20:11, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Sideways flashes & what I think it means

What I think was going on is this: The Island reality is the real reality - i.e, this is what these people ACTUALLY went through - they really did crash or come to the island to work, or however they arrived it really happened. The "Sideways flashes" - i.e, all the stuff that's been going on where the plane landed safely and people like Ben and Juliette are living their lives amongst society, THAT is not real. My theory is this - at the point our lost people die - I'm not saying they die all together, but as and when they die at their own times ( as indicated by Hugo & Ben thanking each other for being leader 1 & 2), in the last seconds of life, their memory's concoct an alternate reality, one in which they never went to the island - so, Hugo is suddenly a lucky man and doesn't have bad numbers, Sawyer is a cop not a crook - this alternate "sideways flash" is the fake reality & this reality lasts for as long as it takes the brain to accept that it's dying (you know sometimes you sleep for only a few moments but your dream felt like it was 2 hours long? yea, like that). So, like Jack's dad says, Jacks most important part of his life was spent with these people - so of course your memory is going to concoct a situation where by you see them all again and "move on" together - hence why he didn't close his eyes till they left the church. If for example we were mostly following Jin & Sun, we probably would have seen them at the church in the same scenario, at the point of their deaths in the sub. I don't know if I'm making much sense, but that's what I think the writers were trying to convey - the "sideways flash" isn't purgatory, it's simply that moment your life flashes before your eyes, just with a twist of there being an alternate version of it too (since it's Lost it doesn't always have to make sense!) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anitsirac (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T16:13:24.

Please keep theories and other discussion either to the theory talk pages or the forums. This space is for discussing improvements to the article ONLY. I'm going to start deleting any sections that discuss theories.  Robert K S   tell me  00:13, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention it's hardly a theory but exactly what was spelled out in the Finale.Maokun 02:58, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like somebody's been watching LOST. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 02:32, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Aaron

Why did Aaron have to be born again? I mean, I get what that means for Claire and Kate and all, but that's sort of cheating Aaron a bit, in the long run. Presumably he got to grow up and live his own life at some point, and now he has to start over as a kid while everyone else (aside from maybe Alex) gets to be an adult. Wouldn't this almost imply that he died really young or something, since Jack's neck is bleeding because he died with it like that? Granted, he was a couple years old already when... argh, this is going to give me a headache. Someone give me a theory, quick! --Amedeus8 21:32, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • My best guess is that Aaron isn't real, like David Shepard. Of course, Aaron does grow up and have his own life in reality. But in the Afterlife, that's not actually him. It's just him to Claire. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 21:49, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I'd wager that isn't the real Aaron. After all, Aaron was a baby when he was on the Island, he wouldn't remember it, and how could something he couldn't even remember be the most important time in his life? --Golden Monkey 22:01, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • It could be argued that Aaron had his own life (presumably with Claire/Kate raising him) so his death (if it had occurred yet) would include him going to the light with the people that meant the most to HIM. The time he spent on the island wouldn't be remembered, nor would most of the people that were on it with him. So his version of afterlife wouldn't necessarily include any of the people in the church, save Claire, possibly Kate, possibly Sawyer? The baby Aaron with Claire/Charlie in the church was the most important part of his life TO THEM. That's the way they all knew him, that's the way Jack would have remembered him had Claire raised him from the start (save the nephew connection they may have had)--Kseds 03:28, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Order of timelines in article

No that we know what the flash-sideway is, I think it makes more sense that those events should be listed after the events of the original time line. That way the story reads chronological. Boumie 00:30, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting support Yes. Also, the whole deal with 2 pages for each character that was on island and in the FS, shouldnt the FS page just be joined with the original article under "Post Death" because it's the same person? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kdc2 (talkcontribs) 2010-05-24T22:08:31.
Pictogram voting support It would be much more apropos to have the final episode synopsis ending with the core group of Losties moving on together rather than Jack's death. Jack's death was the last image of the show, but them being enveloped by the light is the last chronological moment in all of Lost canon. --Geronimo Jackson's Lonely Hearts Club Band 09:02, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose Absolutely and definitively NOT. Lost was about the Losties on the Island. It can only end with the way the story ends on the Island. The summary always tries to follow what we actually see in the episode and end with the episode ending. I know of no exceptions to that. FST is like an addendum which, whatever we might think of it, does not link in with what actually happened on the Island, it neither influences or informs the Island story/history. Even the Desmond stuff. The only tiny bit that is relevant is that Ben was a good Number 2 and Hurley a great Number One (according to the protagonists). On top of that there is only one ending from a dramatic pov and that is Jack dying where it all started.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   13:10, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Charles: The summaries aren't structured that way. Look at any of the seasons 2-4 episodes: the summaries are broken up into their respective stories (something we've done everytime the plots don't intersect) with the flashbacks in the beginning and the flashforwards at the end. I'm neutral to this idea, but saying we shouldn't do it because the summaries follow how the episode is presented is incorrect.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  14:08, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm sure you are right. I think I've edited every one of those (I'm rewatching the whole thing and doing tidy ups as I go.) - but I think the outcome is the same - the last item on screen is the last item on the summary, because that is where the Lost writers have put the cliff hanger - in the real world of the Island. The same goes for "The End". It obviously isn't a "cliffhanger" instead it is our original time resolution, not a side issue (and I don't mean to lessen the drama of the FST, that can be done elsewhere) - it is just that the FST and the Flash forwards and flashbackwards are of themselves not central.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   15:55, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support i agree - the summaries should be chronological. if you want something that's in the order that the episode presents it, maybe you should see the transcript... Dogandpanda 15:30, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Some episodes (for example, Everybody Loves Hugo) end with a cliffhanger in the flash-sideways, which isn't shown by the current order. So one or the other, some episode summaries won't "end" the way the episodes did. And that's fine, because out of simplicity we seperated flashbacks/flash-forwards/flash-sideways from the present story some time ago, and changing that would require a huge revamping of all episodes of the site. Looking back at Season 4 eps, the Flash-forwards are *after* the main story, and in other eps the flashbacks are *before* the main story. So, knowing what we know now, the flash-sideways (even though they arguably exist "outta time") should be put after the goings on of the main story, as they are basically flash-incredibly-far-fowards.--Tim Thomason 07:41, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be 6x17 and 6x18 The End part 1 and the end part 2?

Thats what we did with LA X?--pastoryam12 00:41, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

    • I think LA X's press release had it listed as 2 parts. Don't think this episode did. Plus "The End" Part 1 is a tad redundant. (Kdc2 03:07, May 25, 2010 (UTC))
  • It should be we have every other finale seperated, my guess is this will get sorted out soon. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:09, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The credits list Parts one and two. --   Atomic Mystro    talk    contribs   08:25, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • When reading the articles, it is much easier to have the part 1's and part 2's to be together on one page. That's just what I noticed when I first came to Lostpedia.--Phryrosebdeco23 19:53, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting oppose The End is a lot better than The End, Part 2. And I would love having all the finales merged if they aired on the same day.--Frank J Lapidus 06:33, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

    • We're not talking about putting finale pages together as one, they already are. The titles were split into parts at the start of this season because we consider them all to be individual episodes (as per ep 100 being 5x14). We also split them on the templates because LA X, Parts 1 & 2 was only considered as 6x01 and What Kate Does was about to be considered as 6x02, which is just plain wrong. We've had all season people telling us the season is 18 episodes long. Regardless of whether this counts as one broadcast episode, it is considered two hours. Damon and Carlton consider to have written 121 episodes of the show, not 120 which would be the case if we count this as one. The article even states it as hours 120 and 121. Hours = episodes, people! ABC more than likely did the U-turn on their two part episode namings because "The End" looks more final than adding "Parts 1 & 2" (out of how many parts is this "end"?) If this was called anything else, it would be for example "It Only Ends Once, Parts 1 & 2". Plus, look back at Season 2's finale, and Season 3, before ABC started all this nonsense. It's called "Live Together, Die Alone" but we add the "Part 1" and "Part 2" onto the end for the template just to show it is two episodes. We don't have to rename this article, it should be titled as ABC titled it, as with previous finales, but we need to be consistent with the template, especially having another two parter on the same Season template listed as separate episodes. I guess we have to see how they break it down on the DVD. Here in the UK, it will probably have "Part 1" and "Part 2"...maybe even "Part 3" with the added 20 minutes. Besides, even disregarding all that the credits still had separate lists for Part 1 and Part 2. It's two parts, and the only question that remains is where to cut the end of part 1 for the likes of crossrefs on character articles. That's where the DVD comes into it.--Baker1000 18:55, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Leaving this as one episode breaks consistency, sure. But, even if this goes against all encyclopedic integrity, come on-- this is a Lost site, from Lost fans, for Lost fans. Let's be sentimental, just once and let the end be "The End." (God, don't I feel like a child for thinking "It looks nicer!" is ever a good argument..) --Jacknicholson 06:55, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Thought under trivia

Under trivia: "Miles is the only character among the survivors who did not come into contact with MIB." I'm taking a guess here, but because Miles can confer with the dead and MiB is made up of dead people in part - I suppose "wonky" would be a subtle term for what would happen to him near the MiB.--Pittsburghmuggle 01:09, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

  • It's an interesting thought, but remember that MIB is only taking their physical appearance, not their soul/spirit, and I think that's how Miles contacts the dead. --Bluevane 12:39, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Jack's Dream

I haven't seen this mentioned in the discussion, but with the series opening with Jack's eye opening, and ending with it closing, is it possible the whole series was just Jack's dream? He seems to be the only character who truly resolved the main issue haunting him in his life, and that was forgiving his father. So, Jack's father dies, he has a dream in which he struggles with the issues surrounding his father, and then he wakes up. If nothing else, it's tidy. Scopius 02:02, May 25, 2010 (UTC)Scopius

Pictogram voting oppose No. (Kdc2 03:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC))
Pictogram voting oppose Hell no.--Frakkin Toaster 04:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose Fuck no. --00frodo 04:55, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose God no. --Amedeus8 07:36, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose no.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   13:13, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose That would suck out loud. No I don't think that is possible. Lost is open to each person's interpertation. --Phryrosebdeco23 19:43, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose If this "Jack's Dream" theory were true, there would be a major continuity error with his costume. The opening/closing shots of the series are just a motif. --PubliusVeto 19:32, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose The official explanation is that all of the islanders ended up dead - whether that was due to being stabbed by MIB (in Jack's case) or old age (the Ajira six, presumably). Then they were all reunited in the afterlife so that they could move on to whatever comes next. Yes, the writers have left some details open to interpretation, but I don't think they were even hinting that it may have all been a dream. --Bluevane 12:36, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose I don't agree either, but, there's no reason you shouldn't post this to the Theories page, if you believe it, Scopius. NYCDavid 23:36, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose Negate the whole series? No thanks. Avindratalkcontribs email  18:09, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose Haha, so Jack dreams with his eyes opened and awakes we he closes them? Didn't you mix something up?. MessyM 09:57, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Applying Occam's Razor, this is the most parsimonious theory, therefore it numbers among the best I've heard (in terms of its predictive quality). The fact that it would suck for the audience is irrelevant to the fact that it might, secretly, be what the writers intended. It would tie up all of the otherwise loose ends, in a way that's simpler and more likely than most of the other fan theories. It might not be a palatable hypothesis, but it's not so easily dismiss-able by anyone using some critical thinking. James Joseph Emerald 01:07, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Willa

Probably part of the inspiration for the creation of the FST, Willa is a short story by Stephen King where after a train crash, the ghosts of the dead passengers create and maintain an illusionary world consisting of a train station where they patiently await for the "next train". Only when the strong-willed cheeky character that gives the title to the story decides to venture out of the station and his mild-mannered boyfriend (the protagonist) gathers the courage to follow her, he discovers the truth. They go back to the station and try to make everyone see the reality, but after being aggressively ignored and mocked, they understand that all of them know the truth but they are fiercely denying it.Maokun 04:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I read the story, but the themes seem too universal to have necessarily influenced Lost. --- Balk Of Fametalk 23:50, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Statue

In the opening scene when the Oceanic truck is pulling into the church parking lot, who is the statue?Slimeham 04:58, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

  • Ummm...Jesus? -- Clayburn talk contributions email 02:30, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Or I suppose, more accurately, Albrecht Dürer. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 12:12, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't dispute that it's "jesus-like" but with all the symbols of different religions in the church at the end it seems inconsistent to have only Jesus with a status out front. Slimeham 00:45, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • It's simple. The church exterior is an actual Christian church, located in Hawaii. Thus the Jesus statue. The interior was presumably a set, dolled up with all sorts of multi-religious imagery, including the stained glass. (Jorge Garcia noted in his podcast that the window's assorted iconography was written into the script.) That said, I know of primarily Christian churches that are "loaned out" to other religious groups. --Jacknicholson 04:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
    • Well, Desmond played Jesus in a movie once, so maybe it was meant to be a statue of him. Or maybe it's a statue of Mohammed. -- Clayburn talk contributions email 13:44, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Let's face it, Desmond IS Jesus! --Bluevane 12:33, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

The Magical Moving Elizabeth

I had added this as a continuity error, but it got removed:

Seems like a clear continuity error to me. Thoughts? AluminumFoilist 13:23, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

  • It was removed simply because we do not know of all the movements of the MiB or the way time has passed recently on the Island.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   13:37, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • There are only two outriggers. One was taken from Hydra to the main island by Widmore and Zoe (it's seen full of equipment in "What They Died For"). The other was taken to Hydra by Locke, Jack, and Sayid and then taken back to the main island by Locke. There's just no realistic way that both the outrigger AND the Elizabeth could both have gotten from Hydra to the main island with Locke working alone. AluminumFoilist 13:52, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
      • Unless MiB loaded the Outrigger into the Elizabeth, left the Elizabeth around the cape and rowed on the Outrigger to the Barracks' pier? A quite sensible move when you have different enemy parties intent in ruining all your means of transportation.Maokun 14:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • I guess that's possible. I don't know if the Elizabeth's big enough to hold the outrigger like that, but I guess he could've tied it to the side and dragged it across the sea like a tugboat. Still seems unlikely, though. AluminumFoilist 17:50, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • I know this borders on Dalton fanwanking, but we don't actually have confirmation that Smokey can't travel over water. Of course, it's heavily implied, and probable. But still, MIB did comment on enjoying the human quality of walking-- why not rowing, or the feeling of a sea breeze? He could've also had theoretical motive to row in earlier episodes, like during his adventures with Sawyer, so as to appear more humanly fallible. --Jacknicholson 06:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • What made it even weirder was when Ben said that he knows how they will be able to move to Hydra Island by saying "Locke has a boat". First of all, Sawyer and Kate know that he has a boat because they just used it and they should know that it probably would still be on Hydra Island where they left it. Second, how does Ben know that he has a boat and where it would be located by now? Ben joined the MiB in Dharmaville and it seems unlikely that MiB just told Ben where the boat is. Why would he? MessyM 08:29, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Continuity Error with Claire's Pregnancy

I have just realised what might be a big continuity error - Claire is pregnant in the Flash-Sideways (now confirmed to be purgatory).

Seems to me that as she gave birth in real life on the Island, and lived past the birth, she wouldn't be pregnant in the afterlife and having a new phantom baby. Presumably, to reach purgatory she dies sometime in real life after getting flown home by Lapidus. Amirite?? Dogen's Baseball 20:10, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

  • Confirmed to be purgatory? It's a bit of a stretch and maybe I'm splitting hairs but I think limbo is a better term. Heaven's waiting room is even better. Cabeckett 23:50, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The structure of the sideways realm is that it covers a few days in 2004, starting immediately before the (crash-)landing of Oceanic 815. All the characters are seen at the age and in the state they were at that point in their lives. Claire was pregnant at that time in the prime realm, so she's pregnant in the sideways realm. Locke couldn't walk at that time in prime realm (he could walk at times earlier and later) so he couldn't walk in sideways realm either. -- Jbillones 20:23, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Plus, just like there wasn't a David there likely wasn't a baby Aaron in the flash-sideways. Now, Aaron was probably there, but never crossed paths with them because unlike the others the Island wasn't the most important part of his life. --Golden Monkey 22:00, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Also the baby is not with Claire (and Charlie) in the "church".    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   02:38, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram reply Yes he is. Look here --LeoChris 08:05, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram reply Oh poor Aaron - so the most important time in his life was the short period on the Island when he was barely conscious, not even later with Kate - and after that no part of his life mattered as much. bah    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:23, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • Pictogram reply Perhaps, under a theory that out-of-continuity characters like David weren't real, the "Real" Aaron is a full grown adult, working out his limbo elsewhere in the Sideways realm. How "fake baby" was allowed into the church, I don't know, the same way their shoes and clothes were? Edit: Apparently this idea was already discussed in a section below.. --Jacknicholson 00:25, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ajira six

Frank, Miles, Richard, Kate, Sawyer and Clare. If you think that the oceanic 6 had a lot of press when they returned, imagine the explaining that the Ajira six will have to do when Frank lands the missing jet airliner at an airport. FAA investigator : Ok one more time Frank, you lost about 40 people, gained a two people from Oceanic 815 that supposedly died four years ago and a guy from the 17th century! Kidding aside there is no way or reason to keep the island a secret if the story ever continued. Final Fan 20:18, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

  • Desmond turns the Frozen Donkey Wheel, moves the island, and goes home to Penny. Island safe. Ajira Six, on the other hand, are walking X-Files. -- Jbillones 20:26, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
There's no way the Island would remain a secret after 316's escape, so I would guess that they told the real story of flight 815 after they escaped. --Golden Monkey 21:58, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The story of the Ajira Six would make for a great novel. It's a way to continue the story of Lost in another form of media. --Joshtopher27 23:42, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Richard is from the 19th Century. :) --PubliusVeto 19:34, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • For whatever reason, I'd like to think Frank landed the plane onto the water, they sunk it with Miles' C4, and rowed off on a lifeboat. Then changed all their names to Candle. --Jacknicholson 00:15, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • The answer's simple. They land in some abandoned airport in the Midway Islands or something. Richard gets in touch with some of Ben's millionaire contacts. He, Sawyer, Kate, Claire, probably Miles, as well as Carole Littleton (maybe, maybe not) and Aaron all adopt new identities and move elsewhere. Frank can adopt a new identity too or just float into Guam a week later on a liferaft. Problem solved.--Tim Thomason 07:28, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Continuity error re: plane wings

I removed the continuity error saying that the plane Jack saw flying over him did not have curled wings. I just watched it again, and the wings were curved/bent, though since it was high in the sky it was easy to miss with the light of the sky and little contract to the color of the wings. But the plane did have bent wing tips, though maybe not as pronounced, they were definitely not the straight wings as the Oceanic 815. Iamlost23 21:16, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

You can't see the winglets (which is the word you are looking for) because they are vertical winglets and as such are obscured by the wings. The fly over the trees was created digitally, so they would've used the digital model of Ajira 316, which features the winglets. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  10:11, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the correct word. I could see the winglet on one side of the plane when it banked slightly so it is possible to see the winglet then, but still it is very slight because of the color of sky to plane, and the angle too. Making the winglet look smaller than when viewed full on the ground. Iamlost23 17:49, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Continuity Error or Blooper: Locke's scar

In the "sideways" story, all scenes of Locke in the hospital show Locke without his characteristic scar on his cheek/above brow. Then in the scene where Locke speaks to Ben outside the church, Locke's scar is missing. It is hard to tell, but I can't see his scar later inside the church when Locke greats Jack. This is my first post, and I'm surprised I'm the first to mention this. (yay!) KazakRumford 06:12, May 26, 2010 (UTC)Kazak Rumford

  • Good catch, to that answer I will say what my mother told me when I was younger, that when everyone dies, they become whole again, they are young, they are healthy and beautiful. I think that things like John's trademark scar, and Kate's shot wound, and oh the loads of other injuries and scars, they looked like they did before the crash, if not better. With Jack's I think that the afterlife was trying to nudge to him, hey, how did you realllly get this cut by your appendix, why is your neck bleeding. But seriously good catch!! --Phryrosebdeco23 08:34, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • I've read this a couple of times and I'm really struggling to work out what your problem is with the scar? Locke got the scar in the plane crash at the very start of the series, and he's consistently had it in every original timeline scene. In the sideways, the plane crash never happened, therefore no scar, and he's consistently NOT had the scar in every sideways scene. How is this news? Where is the problem?Beelzebubbles101 08:49, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Yup. The scar only appeared after Flight 815 crashed, where he sustained the injury. He didn't have it in flashbacks, or the sideways flashes, because the crash hadn't occurred yet, or at all. No continuity error at all here. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  10:16, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Hm..I was happy with the ending until this...

Enjoy. Has many good points.Jjteaks2 10:18, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

Funny, yet sooooooo many of those "unanswered" questions don't matter. Literally. A couple legitimate ones, but others show a superficial understanding of what went on. That video is an odd combination of extreme attention to detail and completely missing the point. Still funny and worth a watch though. Cabeckett 12:24, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

true, but it could also go a different way...maybe its a deeper search for meaning that would lead you to want to know the answers to these, instead of superficial. They dont matter in what context? Im sure they meant a lot to a lot of people...but I agree the show ended well but they definitely left a lot to interpretation that a lot of people thought would be explained eventually. Jjteaks2 12:38, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

After a second watch, some of them are definitely legitimate questions, imo. Jjteaks2 13:16, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Final Ajira plane noise

"As the Ajira Flight 316 plane flies over the Island, it makes the same sound as that used as the transition sound to the "Flash-sideways timeline". I think that is very wrong. Anyone else think so? --Blueeagleislander 14:16, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting oppose I think the noise is intended to be the same noise and is symbolic in that the noise was used all season to transition to the "flash-sideways" world and when Jack saw the plane and heard that noise, that is exactly what he was doing. Slimeham 00:50, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Watching it for the first time, I heard the noise and thought it was about to flash to the sideways, but then the plane flew overhead, so I agree that it sounded the same.--Frank J Lapidus 06:27, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Same sound. AluminumFoilist 01:28, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support Go to Hulu http://www.hulu.com/watch/151655/lost-the-end#s-p1-so-i0 , watch the scene with the plane (01:44:30), and watch a flash sideways transition (0:52:05, for example). The two sounds are completely different. The flash sideways sound is a higher-pitched stuttering sound, the Ajira sound is a smooth, consistent sound, just like any normal airplane. Shawn4168 15:35, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support The plane noise is the noise of an engine and is much lower pitch than the nails-on-a-chalkboard flashsideways noise.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:23, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support - It's not exactly the same sound, but I do think the intended symbolism was there.--Baker1000 18:51, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The final resulting sound may not be exactly the same, but I do think the same plane sound was used in manufacturing the flash-sideways sound, which was obviously tweaked a lot to sound more like a weird unworldly transition sound effect, rather than a real-world sound. I think using the same plane raw sound effect for the Ajira plane flying overhead was intentional. --Celebok 19:17, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • Pictogram reply It wasn't intentional because the two noises are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! They don't even sound remotely similar. I can't imagine what you people are listening to because the noises are completely distinct.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  23:53, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Missing Recurring theme

I can't believe no one added that, but there is a very explicit 'Good & Evil' theme when Jack and Locke are facing on the cliff before the final face-off. The inclination of the cliff shows during that point in the story, Locke (Evil) is winning. Here's a screencap : [7] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frankov (talkcontribs) 2010-05-26T09:54:02.

I am still in dark about Ilana' s background. How did she know Jacob? Also, what about the ash around Jacob's cabin? When it was broken, Ilana knew that Jacob was in danger. So how did the ash protect Jacob? One more question- Did Jacob become a child after being killed by Ben? How could he then appear to Hurley as an adult? Kas15h 05:23, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

  • I thought it was really smokey in Jacob's cabin, someone trapped him there with ash to prevent him getting out? Beelzebubbles101 09:36, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • Ilana knew Jacob -- he visited her after her accident and restored her health, and their conversation indicates they met previously. That likely was Smokey in the cabin, but he wasn't trapped. He manifested to Locke primarily to continue his long con on Ben. Ben had never spoken to Jacob, so when it appeared Jacob had chosen Locke to speak to -- with Ben being right in the room -- it enraged Ben, and Ben shot Locke and dumped him in the DHARMA grave. This helped show Smokey that his manipulation of Ben was working. He then rescued Locke (in the image of Walt) to further the illusion that Locke was beloved by Jacob in the way that Ben so desperately waned to be.--Marksman1 13:03, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Charlie's Tattoo

Did anyone else notice that Charlie's tattoo was different in the sideways/afterlife? During seasons 1-3, when he was alive on-island, the tattoo on his left shoulder reads, "Living is easy with eyes closed", a partial lyric from "Strawberry Fields Forever". When we see the tattoo in The End, it is now the complete lyric, "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see." I think that's rather appropriate.MarkFunk 06:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

The last sentences of "The bamboo grove"

If none of us cared we wouldn't discuss this.  :) The final sentence currently reads: "Looking towards the sky, he sees the Ajira plane soar overhead and smiles. His eyes close." Yesterday someone made what I thought was a brilliant edit to it, thusly: "Looking towards the sky, he sees the Ajira plane with his friends soar overhead and smiles. His eyes close." I loved the addition of those three words because that's EXACTLY what would have been going through Jack's mind in his final moments. Charles Kane, 99% of whose edits I agree with, removed "with his friends" on the grounds that it's "unnecessary". Well, yeah, of course it's unnecessary. The question is, does its presence add something to the context and gravity of Jack's state of mind at that crucial moment. I say it does. However if we're going to follow the "unnecessary words" line of logic, what is the word "soar" doing there? He looks in the sky and sees the plane. Obviously it's flying. What is the purpose of the word "soar"? It's technically unnecessary. If "with his friends" is unnecessary, so is "soar". There, Grumpy Hatchbanger has spoken his feeble mind. Hatchbanger 16:10, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

  • I do think that removing "with his friends" it was an unnecessary edit. Although to play devil's advocate, just how many friends did Jack really have on that plane? He barely knew Richard, Miles, and Frank. His relationship with Sawyer has always been tenuous at best, and until a few days ago Sawyer wanted to kill him. Claire's been a crazy woman working with Smokey for three years. Kate's his only real friend on the plane. AluminumFoilist 16:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • Well they were friends in the sense of having gone through this extraordinary shared experience, not friends like they party together on weekends. My interpretation is Jack sees the plane and thinks to himself something like "That crazy Frank actually did it!" Jack got some additional satisfaction in his last moments by seeing his "friends" make a succesful escape against incredible odds. Hatchbanger 17:38, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • As far as the word "soar", I think it provides necessary context to the sentence. He's smiling because the plane is soaring away, not simply because the plane is in the sky. After all, if the plane was overhead but crashing, he wouldn't be smiling. AluminumFoilist 17:00, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Changes to the quotes, captions and the pictures

A bunch of the captions for the pictures and the pictures were changed, and I disagree with some of the changes. I think the picture of Kate talking to Jack at the concert is a weird picture. The one with Ben saying "I'll stay here for a while." was really great and lead to speculation as to why. The picture of Locke after he remembers and asks Jack if he saw, was showing the moment I felt better. I guess that I feel that the pictures should show the moments of remembering or seeing. ESPECIALLY the picture of the losties getting shined on by the light and moving on, its more than just Christian opening the door, when we already have two pictures of Christian, not including his coffin. My thoughts. --Phryrosebdeco23 03:03, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support I agree, they were better before in most cases. AluminumFoilist 03:18, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support I'm a bit embarrassed to agree as the original set of grabs were mine. My shots do have a disadvantage of not being high res but I'll upgrade them if they are still there when I get a hi res copy. Meanwhile I have reverted to the original shots you refer to in some of the cases. Its a pity we don't have a shot of the Losties flying off in Ajira but they weren't great visually, also we lack good shots of the crisis in the Source but again there wasn't much of a choice - the lighting was terrible for stills.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   13:52, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support I dislike when the captions directly describe what's happening in the picture (as the paragraph the image belongs to is already doing.) I prefer to add precise captions of the words used when they are powerful (like "It's going to be you,") or sentences that provide a deeper analysis to the escene (like the changed caption on Jack dying with Vincent "Live together and you won't die alone.")Maokun 14:25, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

What do we think of the images now? I think that it looks great. I think that the headline about the image discussion can be deleted now :) --Phryrosebdeco23 23:32, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

  • Would it be too much to ask to at least include one of the discussed church images in the Eloise's Church section of the main article? Hatchbanger 23:37, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
    • I can take care of it,but from what part of the episode? The part where it shows everyone in the church at the end or which part? The part of the article "Eloise's church" is really full with images, so I would vote to take out the Hurley image, although it is a good one, to have a pic of the church. Thoughts?--Phryrosebdeco23 23:46, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't want to launch another lengthy debate but how about the one that was originally posted but later taken down and lost out in the voting above (image #2). It had substantial support. I conveniently sidestep the messy issue of which current image(s) to remove (if any) but will point out that it looks like another image would fit in the lower-right of Eloise's Church section now, without significantly bumping anything else around. Hatchbanger 00:38, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
      • Done.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   03:05, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
        • Excellent. Now the supporters of that image can, uh, let go, move on, etc.  :) Hatchbanger 14:30, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • Do not delete the headline or its subject matter. It's a record of the discussion.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 23:57, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

A familiar church?

Ever since my first viewing, I suspected that the church from The End was the church from This Place is Death which contains the Lamppost. Upon further viewing, I believe they are the same, but that either a wall was built at the front of the courtyard which masks a statute of Jesus (the one in color in This Place is Death) or that the statue has been removed. (I'm working off of abc.com and only have so much patience for the ads when jumping back and forth.) I am fairly certain that the stone statue in the foreground of the establishing shot from The End can be seen behind Sun's head in This Place is Death, as well as in some wide angle shots after Desmond arrives. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm my observation?Mcwebe0 06:26, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, same church. (Kdc2 17:06, May 28, 2010 (UTC))
But is it the same church for Lost? or the same church for Hawaii? There's a difference. They re-used locations for shooting over and over. That doesn't make it the same church within the story if you catch my drift.--DanVader228 13:43, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

E7odie's changes to article formatting

Pictogram voting oppose I don't care that it wasn't consistent with other articles. It was better the way it was. Hatchbanger 15:56, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Crossref not working at end of article

I noticed towards the end of the article it stops rendering crossref tags correctly, and it just looks like (5x01) instead of ("Because You Left"). It looks like Baker1000 edited the article to hardcode it using small tags. What's going on? AluminumFoilist 16:50, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Wikia has a limit on the amount of parser function recalls (or whatever you call them) you can have on one article. Basically, the only way around it is to use the small tags like that. We had a similar problem on Jack's page and some of the other longer articles like Regularly Spoken Phrases (until we split them up). It was doing it on all the character navs at the bottom too, so I changed all of those...but the problem continued in the episode references.--Baker1000 17:07, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Cultural References

Was there a reference to Spies Like Us, when Jack & Juliet are in the hospital and address each other as Doctor, Doctor and laugh? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nflesner (talkcontribs) 2010-06-03T13:00:26.

Juliet's death/vending machine conversation

Is it me, or did Sawyer and Juliet have the exact same conversation when she died in that pit, and when they fixed the vending machine? I wonder now if her last words about going dutch for coffee and "It worked" were really her words as she was between worlds, entering into the "flash-sideways" spiritually while still physically on the island. Sort of like how people on their deathbeds are visited by the spirits of those who have already passed -- they are between worlds.

Transcript from LA X, Parts 1 & 2:

SAWYER: OK, ok, I got'cha, I got'cha, ... Don't worry.

JULIET: We can get coffee some time.

SAWYER: I gotta get you outta here.

JULIET: We can go dutch.

SAWYER: Juliet...it's me.

JULIET: ...James.

SAWYER: Yeah.

JULIET: Kiss me.

SAWYER: You got it Blondie.

[they kiss]

And transcript from The End:

JULIET: It worked.

[Sawyer grabs the candy, but as his hand touches Juliet's, they both begin to see flashes of their time together on the Island. They jump back in surprise.]

JULIET: Oh...

SAWYER: Whoa... did you feel that?

JULIET: We should get coffee some time.

SAWYER: I'd love to but the machine ate my dollar, I only got one left.

JULIET: We can go dutch.

[As she says that last line we see her on the Island, they flash to her dying in Sawyer's arms as she says the same line. Juliet holds Sawyer's hand and they begin to experience more flashes of their 1970's DHARMA life; Sawyer holding up a daisy, them hugging, spooning in bed, more hugging and kissing, Sawyer holding Juliet from falling in The Incident, Juliet falling.]

SAWYER: Juliet? Juliet it's--it's me. Ju--

[They embrace and Juliet begins to sob.]

SAWYER: It's me babe... I gotcha... I gotcha babe.

[Juliet is laughing as she realizes.]

JULIET: Kiss me, James!

SAWYER: You got it blondie...

[They kiss each other passionately.]

--Magmagirl 14:36, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Irony

The Man in Black who hated John Locke eventually died himself as John Locke? Are we talking here about irony?--Station7 07:19, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Also Jack killed the Man in Black as John Locke, the reason why he came back to the Island.--Station7 14:07, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Miles

It was pointed out on the forums that Miles escaped twice too: in 1977 and 2007. But is this only counting from when he returned in 2004? 'cause if so, he's placed correctly. --Golden Monkey 02:54, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Essential Nature of the Lost Universe

Re: Not a question raised by this episode. Should go on the "Lost" article if you must. I don't think it's even an unanswered question. Core concepts were surely good vs. evil, survival, faith vs. science

Maybe people have it all figured out, but searching around the site has not answered some questions I have. For example, was time travel possible? The authors have said not in the sense we think of it. So what was going on? I know I'm curious, and I'll bet many others are as well. If you don't understand the time travel issue or what the flashes represent, I'd say it's imposssible to figure out the other mysteries with any confidence. This is what I meant by core. Maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully, perhaps - what are the physics or metaphysics of the Lost world?. Good vs. evil, etc. are more general themes, that rest upon these core concepts. I think I know what the authors were trying to communicate, but without specific understanding of the stories' events I might be going in the wrong direction or have an incorrect interpretation. To my mind, it's important.

Since the "The End" is the final episode, a summary of the series concepts doesn't seem out of order. Certainly it would help those not wishing to do all the research required to fully understand the series, which presumeably is the purpose of this site or am I mistaken?

In any case, why entirely eliminate the unanswered questions section? Surely people don't have all the answers, do they? If a question specific to this episode is required, perhaps this will suffice: Why was John Locke able to walk immediately after surgery? BlindedByTheLight 18:59, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Here's an even better argument. Some people have construed the so called FST as pugatory, heaven, heaven staging area, etc. Why? Mainly because Christian said there is "no time here" and "you all created this place". The natural assumption is to believe that "here" or "this place" means the entire FST. But that's a logic error, an assumption that he's referring to everything both inside and outside the church. He could mean just inside the church or just outside the church or both. And he might be applying one phrase to outside the church and the other to inside the church. Who knows for sure? We don't know what heaven or heaven's entrance looks like. But, if we know more about Lost's physics then we have a chance to separate reality from heaven and maybe determine what he actually meant and what the show meant. Physics (or metaphysics) are so important to this episode, because the question, "What is the FST?", hasn't been answered. BlindedByTheLight 21:51, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

  • Is time travel possible? Yes, we saw as much. Why did the producers say it wasn't? Because they didn't want to give too much away, they've answered that question. I'm not sure what you mean by "what do the flashes represent?" The flashbacks and forwards are narrative devices used for showing events chronologically external to the main storyline and the flashsideways depict the afterlife. Desmond's flashes were caused by being unstuck in time and the flashes of the people in the flashsideways universe were memories of their original lives. "What are the physics of Lost?" is a question that doesn't make sense. Yes, some of the things that happen are impossible in real life, but if you're looking for a physics-textbook explanation of what happened, then I think you missed the point of the show. "What are the metaphysics of the show?" makes even less sense. The standard practice is to remove the section when there are no UQs. Why did John get up and walk immediately after his surgery? Because it was the afterlife and he wasn't really constrained by anything other than his inability to let go, which he finally overcame; enabling him to "move on". Regarding "inside vs outside the church" you're REALLY reaching there. Nothing that he said suggests he was being that specific. Furthermore, the idea that the FST is the afterlife is supported both by the events *in* the church and those *outside* the church, as well as Elosie's dialogue. Thus, yes, "What is the FST?" has been answered (even addressed in interviews after the show ended). Asking about the physics and metaphysics of the show is not a statement that has actual content. Can you give an example of something you would consider to be a physic or metaphysic of the show? Can you even give an example of something you would consider to be a physic or metaphysic overall in this context?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  06:24, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

JT: Is time travel possible? Yes, we saw as much. Why did the producers say it wasn't? Because they didn't want to give too much away, they've answered that question.

They answered "not in the way we think of it". You're assuming the rest and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their interpretation. But I'm after what the authors intended to communicate, not an interpretation.

  • They also said that they said that in order to throw people off and that whenever the show contradicts something they said that we should go with what happened on the show.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

JT: I'm not sure what you mean by "what do the flashes represent?" The flashbacks and forwards are narrative devices used for showing events chronologically external to the main storyline and the flashsideways depict the afterlife.

Again, interpretation. I think from evidence in the show the flashes can be shown to have a basis in metaphysics. By metaphysics I mean the nature of reality and the mind.

  • ... I don't even know what to say to that. Again, the producers have acknowledged that the show was trying to show the occurrences in various times in order to create a mosaic whose chronological tiles were filled in gradually (their metaphor, not mine). What else exactly would the flashes be?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

JT: Why did John get up and walk immediately after his surgery? Because it was the afterlife and he wasn't really constrained by anything other than his inability to let go

Interpretation again. Didn't you think it odd that Locke was ready to walk at the hospital? He was pulling back the sheet and starting to get out of bed. Yet further on when he comes to the church he's back in the wheelchair. It's not until Ben reminds him of something that he realizes he can walk. It's such an odd scene in light of the events back at the hospital, you have to suspect something is up. Something that the authors put in your face even if it didn't make sense in relation to prior events.

  • Did it seem odd? Yes, until it turned out it was the afterlife: a conclusion that everyone has come to except for you; and one that was blatantly stated on the post-Finale JKL show. Not to mention that it's directly stated by Christian that the afterlife was a place to remember their lives and find eachother again. So yes, when he stands up it's an unanswered question, but it's immediately solved by the end of the episode.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

JT: "What are the physics of Lost?" is a question that doesn't make sense. Yes, some of the things that happen are impossible in real life, but if you're looking for a physics-textbook explanation of what happened, then I think you missed the point of the show.

But what if the FST isn't heaven? Then your interpretation would be missing the point. And it would mean the reason Locke can walk is not because he's in heaven but something else.

  • Who said heaven? Again, it's explicitly stated (by Matthew Fox on the JKL show) that the FST is the afterlife, and which particular afterlife is up to your particular beliefs.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

JT: Regarding "inside vs outside the church" you're REALLY reaching there.

Am I? I think one thing we could agree on is that Lost is one of the most perplexing TV shows ever aired. Just when you think you've nailed something down, you realize you might be wrong.

  • Yes. You are. Additionally, the producers said that everything we would need to know to understand the show would be revealed by the end. No more show, no more twists.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

JT: Nothing that he said suggests he was being that specific.

Nothing he said suggests he was being that general.

JT: Asking about the physics and metaphysics of the show is not a statement that has actual content. Can you give an example of something you would consider to be a physic or metaphysic of the show? Can you even give an example of something you would consider to be a physic or metaphysic overall in this context?

Yes. The physics of time travel as you and I understand them from Western philosophy (modern science) is incorrect from the show's point of view. And the metaphysics (understanding) of the mind and reality is incorrect as viewed from Western philosophy (Locke, Hume).

  • I highly recommend you never watch any other science fiction or fantasy show/movie because you will be very confused that the physics don't match up with reality. It's a television show, the physics were never SUPPOSED to match up.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Please read the section "Eternal Recurrence, or See Ya In Another Life Brotha" in "The End/Theories section". It's not complete, but it forms the basis of much more content. Although I've found some of the clues, there are many more, some of which I haven't put in the article yet (it's a big job). Some have already told me they don't believe it and that's their choice. As long as the show's events support the concept I'm happy.BlindedByTheLight 15:09, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

  • No. I ignore the theory pages because they're filled with nonsensical ramblings that, in my opinion, don't belong on the wiki. Unless it was in the show, it's not valid and it doesn't belong on the main page. I'm sorry that you're one of the fans who needs everything spoon-fed to them, but Lost was written for an audience that was able to put the pieces together to form the whole picture without it being explicitly explained over and over again. You sound like one of the fans who still wonders where the polar bears came from. Finally, UQ sections are for questions we were expecting answers to, which yours wouldn't be even IF the show wasn't over.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


JT: Did it seem odd? Yes, until it turned out it was the afterlife: a conclusion that everyone has come to except for you; and one that was blatantly stated on the post-Finale JKL show.

I don't think the JKL show is acceptable proof according to this site's own rules.

JT: Not to mention that it's directly stated by Christian that the afterlife was a place to remember their lives and find each other again.

Christian never said afterlife. He said "this place" whatever that means.

JT: So yes, when he stands up it's an unanswered question, but it's immediately solved by the end of the episode

I hate to be repetitive, but if Locke's not in heaven when he stands nothing is solved. Why do the authors make such a big deal out of Locke standing? Everyone already knows heaven heals all (at least in Christianity). What can be learned from that? It's not heaven that heals him, he heals himself. Read my article. Also keep in mind that any good literary work is really about people and events in the here and now.

JT: ...the physics were never SUPPOSED to match up

The physics of time do work within Lost. Read the article.

JT: ... but you're making a very esoteric claim ...

The whole show is esoteric, and you want me to be otherwise?

JT: ...and when nobody else seems to have come to the same conclusion, that should speak volumes to you.

Fortunately Galileo never adopted that mindset.

JT: No. I ignore the theory pages...

I don't possess your aversion to theory. I figure alot of people smarter than me developed the scientific method over many years of struggling against people's beliefs that had no basis in evidence.

Is it really reasonable to say I desire spoon feeding? It was your request that I provide you evidence of the role of physics and/or metaphysics in the show. I have done that, by suggesting you read an article I wrote in my spare time over the last month. It does put together the pieces, in ways you've probably not considered, based upon this exchange. You don't have to believe the article, but there's no denying that evidence within the show supports it. If you refuse to read it, I can do no more.

As you suggest, I still do have questions. For example, does it make sense that people are getting injured and killed by others in the afterlife (supposedly the FST)? It doesn't fit within the Christian concept (and the authors have said it's not pugatory). Clearly this supposed afterlife has some component of Christianity as evidenced by the statue of Jesus outside the church. So one would expect some or all aspects of Christian principles to be in force here. Killing would not be one of them. If other interpretations of the afterlife allow killing, why should that interpretation take precedence over Christianity, especially when major characters are named Christian Shepard and Jack Shepard? At the very least, you'd expect an equal footing for all religions/interpretations or an intersection of principles (which is suggested in the churches stained glass window). That is, only principles common to all religions/interpretations would be in force. To say that it's just some afterlife and anything can go down doesn't fit (not to mention all the Christian viewers who would be alienated). Of course if it's not the afterlife then all these problems go away.

So, does the show answer the question of the FST? If the answer is: it's a hybrid afterlife, then how does the show explain killers (or people in need of killing) in an afterlife characterized (at least in part) by Christian values? You just might need a theory to answer that one.

(Seriously dude, read my article, because we're just talking past each other. Until you understand where I'm coming from the discussion is just an infinite loop.)BlindedByTheLight 02:52, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

  • Okay, I read your crap and I'm out. I could literally write a dozen page paper on why everything you said is dumb. You reach really far in places, placing an obscene amount of significance on things like camera angles and throwaway one-liners. Frankly, I don't have the time. So I'll leave it at two points. 1) You basically just came up with a gigantic explanation of Lost that is, to the outside observer, identical to the answer of "there's time travel and the FST is the afterlife". The end result is the same, and is exactly what you'd expect to see if the simpler explanation were the case. 2) The wiki is run by consensus. At the moment, we've had two people who have undone your edits opposing you, and just you in favour of adding your obtuse "unanswered" question. I'll play fair, if consensus is to include that question, I'll bow to it; but so far you're outnumbered and I'll ask you to play by the same rules.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  08:34, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Dumb? Dumb would imply no evidence, no logical connection of the show's events to a theory. Perhaps the evidence is lacking, or the theory incorrect, but dumb? No.

The end result is not the same. Time travel is important because it's basically the same as our reality. We can't change or undo past mistakes, or predict the future to avoid pitfalls. But what we can do is imagine all the other possibilities (other realites) that our lives can take, and by our own intervention chart the best path. Essentially create our own reality.

I think we could agree that one of the major themes in the show is how morally corrupt and emotionally injured people manage to heal themselves with the help of others. It's an inspiring message for the here and now. If people have to wait for healing in heaven what's the inspiration to be gained from that? A quick death?

Outnumbered? Cool. How many stories begin with that premise?BlindedByTheLight 12:16, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

I thought Jimbo was handling this fine, but if he's out, I'll step in.
Your question "What are the physics of Lost?" reminds me of all those TV shows and books aimed at kids where a supposedly learned character seeks "the meaning of life". It's a silly quest of course because though life contains mysteries, the question "What is the meaning of life?" itself lacks meaning. It demands an explanation, but not an explanation of anything. The Hitchhiker's Guide mocked this best. So I'll answer your question with - "42". More specific questions have answers, and people discuss them elsewhere on this site.
I read your article. You undermine your philosophical interpretation ("The characters journey through levels") by claiming it's a literal interpretation despite all contrary evidence. It's like someone else reading you Apollonian-Dionysian analysis, great by itself, and concluding, "Jacob and the Man in Black aren't men. They're actually Apollo and Dionysus."
Subtheories you create ("No time-travel") to justify your interpretation sound as silly as a troll's recent post that all bloopers prove multiple realities. To support the theories, you offer the show's red herrings as though falling for them required special intelligence. Specific lines ("Sun and Jin's baby Gaia - meaning mother earth - is killed in the submarine") are so blatantly false that perhaps you really are just joking with us.
Responding to a few of your points above...
  • Some people have construed the so called FST as pugatory, heaven, heaven staging area, etc. Why? Mainly because Christian said there is "no time here" and "you all created this place"
    • No. We construe it as the afterlife because Christian said they'd all died.
  • He could mean just inside the church or just outside the church or both.
    • He said they created the place to find one another. Most found one another nowhere near the church.
  • Didn't you think it odd that Locke was ready to walk at the hospital?
    • Real reason? It gave us a great scene with Locke and Ben. In-universe reason? His foot moved in the hospital, but he couldn't walk. He'd remembered his life, but in meeting Ben and forgiving him, he let go of the last thing holding him back. That's an explanation. You offer no explanation - you just say something is odd, so perhaps your unconnected, even odder theory must be right. "My shoe is missing. Therefore, bears must be in Congress."
  • Statue of Jesus, therefore Christian heaven.
    • Spanish Johnny's, therefore Dia de los Muertos? No. It's a church, so there's a Christ the Redeemer statue outside. That doesn't mean it's Christian heaven. Nothing in it at all resembles Christian heaven.
  • People can't die in the afterlife.
    • I say then they're not people. Keamy and Mikhail are as false as David. Others suggest dying in the afterlife annihilates you or sends you to another afterlife. Any of these make more sense than "they're not dead," when the show told us they were.--- Balk Of Fametalk 13:30, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

I updated "The Bigger Reality" section in the article. It answers most of your questions I think. It may have some errors, but I believe it's essentially on the mark. The conclusion is that the FST is a reality not afterlife.

BTW, the answer of 42 for the meaning of life doesn't necessarily mean there is no answer. It could mean that no one or no thing can answer that question for you. As Desmond tells Kate, "no one can tell you why you're here". It's up to you to do that. Stay open to all possibilities.BlindedByTheLight 03:51, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

  • I read the updates. There's some interesting analysis. But the problem is that you're still making literal conclusions out of philosophical interpretations. For instance, if I said the Swan symbolized the faith v science debate, would that be valid? Yes. Obvious even. But should I conclude that God build the Swan to test Locke and Jack's belief? No. That didn't happen.
  • As for 42, I didn't mean there is no answer. I meant there's no question. --- Balk Of Fametalk 20:31, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

End of synopsis in italics

Why do the italics keep getting removed? From "The plane clears frame" to "The end", that was the final 9 lines of the script written by Damon and Carlton, not just some user on this site. (Kdc2 14:50, July 8, 2010 (UTC))

I haven't seen what you're talking about, but why are italics necessary and are they redundant with quotation marks? Only either italics or quotation marks should be used, not both, and except in rare cases quotation marks are preferable to italics when quoting the show.  Robert K S   tell me  15:44, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
I made an edit to help clarify. Hopefully no one will remove the quotes again.  Robert K S   tell me  16:07, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

Charlotte flash-sideways

When trying to figure out who got flashes in each part, I realized that there is one scene that only has Charlotte, Charlie, and Daniel in it, neither of whom are currently listed with the centric characters. Clearly one of them needs to be, if we're going to give Sayid centricity for the short and arguably Hurley-centric flash with Shannon. Even though it's weird for her to get it, I'd say Charlotte, as she is the only one in the entire scene. Gefred7112 01:41, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

  • Careful, wall of text ahead. I've looked into the episode again and came up with the following list of transitions from on-island to flash-sideways:
  • -Jack (Montage) Clear transition
  • -Ben (Montage) Clear transition
  • -Locke (Montage) Clear transition
  • -Sawyer (Montage) Clear transition
  • -Kate (Scene with Desmond outside the church) Clear transition
  • -Hurley (Getting Charlie) No lead-in, but a clear lead-out transition
  • -Miles (Spotting the yellow van) Clear lead-in Scene directly shifts to...
  • -Sun/Jin (Hospital with Juliet.) The scene starts with a close-up on Sun ends with a close-up on both of them. Next scene is on-island Sawyer, following a commercial break. This obviously doesn't help us determine which of these two get centricity. But I'm tempted to say both, or neither. Since this leads into a commercial break, there's no clear lead-out transition.
  • -Jack, again (Talking with Locke at the hospital) the scene ends with a close-up on Locke and leads to on-island Miles/Richard stuff. Either way, both Locke & Jack already have (other) centricity, so it doesn't matter.
  • -Jack, again (Juliet/David hospital stuff) ends with Sawyer, into an on-island group shot including both Jack and Sawyer. Once again, it's moot to argue who has actual centricity for the scene.
  • -Hurley (The Shannon scene. It starts after a commercial break, so there's no lead-in, but the lead-out transition is clearly Hurley)
  • -Claire (No lead-in. Juliet/David/Claire scene. Juliet leaves in the middle) leads directly into...
  • -Charlotte/Charlie (They're both in the whole scene. Kinda focuses more on Charlotte) leads directly into...
  • -Desmond (LONG scene with Claire going into labour at the end, he gets a clear transition)
  • -Claire (No lead in, she starts to give birth) leads directly into...
  • -Desmond chatting with Eloise. We then return to...
  • -Kate (it's Claire giving birth, but she gets a direct transition back to on-island stuff)

End of part 1

  • -Locke. The first flash-sideway in Part 2 starts with a clear MiB/Locke transition.
  • -Jack. A close-up of Jack ends the previously mentioned flash-sideway, leading us to commercial with no whooshing.
  • -Sawyer. Obvious transition (Sun/Jin hospital stuff)
  • -Sawyer, again. (Meeting Juliet) Leads into commercial.
  • -Jack. (Meeting Kate) Clear transition.
  • -Ben (Locke getting off the taxi at the church) There's no lead-in as it starts back from commercial, but Ben gets a clear-cut transition at the end.
  • -Ben, again. (Hurley and Ben chatting at the church) lead directly into...
  • -Jack (Him chatting with Kate at the church) he gets a leads-out.
  • -Jack (Going into the church, this is the final normal transition with a wooshing sound)
  • -All of the jungle/church transitions that follow are clearly Jack stuff.
  • In the end, that gives us Jack, Ben, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Miles, (Sun), (Jin), (Claire), (Charlotte) and/or (Charlie), & Desmond for part one. (Brackets indicate no clear transition)

For part 2, we have Locke, Sawyer, Jack & Ben all with at least one clear transition. As such, I think it's safe to say that 1) Sayid doesn't get centricity. 2) This whole episode is a mess. What I would personally do, is give centricity to those who have clear transitions, and non-centric flashes to the rest of them (Sun Jin Claire Charlotte and Charlie)... thoughts? --LeoChris 02:47, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

  • My take on this episode was that it didn't really have a centric character. If anything it was just focused on the Oceanic passengers. I'd be fine with listing the centrics as everyone who was in the church, minus Christian, as that scene really sort of focused on all of them.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  08:35, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
    • But that doesn't really work either, because Ben, Desmond, and Miles clearly had flashes. I like LeoChris' suggestion. Gefred7112 03:44, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
      • Desmond was in the church, so he's in. Ben was at the church which is close enough. I'm not convinced Miles should have centric, but if we included him, Faraday and Charlotte, I wouldn't really have an issue as the sideways focused on them too.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:19, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
  • You know I'd be cool with listing everyone, infact Shannon should be given one, I mean Sun/Jin are dead and got one, Shannon was aswell, and Sayid was when he and Shannon reunited in the afterlife, yet we credit it as a Sayid flash. Shouldn't Shannon be given it also then. Charlie, Charlotte, Juliet too. If the writers credited everyone in starring billing, then I see no issue with everyone being given this as there centric, except Penny and Libby had no lines except the church. But Shannon, Juliet, Desmond, Ben, Charlie and Charlotte should.

Given all the Oceanic passengers moved on in the church, listing all of them isn't that bad, given they billed everyone again in the end too.

Buffyfan123 13:42, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Blooper about Jack and Desmond

I don't believe it was said before (sorry if it was) but I think I found a mistake: Jack tells Desmond "Go home and be with your wife and son" but he has no way to know Desmond has a son!  Nico  05:27, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

I think you're right. Desmond had a son, while the Oceanic Six weren't there. Desmond talked to Jack in 316, but he didn't revealed that he had a son. I think you're right, because I don't know if he did tell it to anybody from the other characters.--Station7 05:30, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, there's the possibility he told the O6 off-screen (though I'm not sure why he would contact them, really) who then told Jack. But... couldn't this just be part of Jack's new Jacob-like abilities to know stuff? --LeoChris 16:43, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

It's a good point, but I don't think it qualifies as a blooper. It would if somebody had stated somewhere that "316" was the first time Desmond had seen any of the O6 since their rescue, but as far as I can recall, there was no such mention, so it's possible he might have been in touch with one or more of them at some point, intentionally or unintentionally. --Celebok 08:26, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Another centricity discussion

I made an edit adding Juliet and Charlie to the centricity, and it was undone. I don't understand how we can have it be listed as Miles-centric when he was in a single scene, while both Juliet and Charlie were present and the focus of more scenes. Both also had awakenings in the episode, while Miles did not. So why aren't they considered to be centric characters?--Jf518 21:30, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

  • Charlie and Juliet might have been present more. But were any scenes from their points of view? Juliet's awakening, for instance, began from Sawyer's pov. Her scene with Sun and Jin began from their pov. Miles's FS scene began from his pov. --- Balk Of Fametalk 22:52, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • That's true, but shouldn't the fact that they both had awakenings while Miles didn't outweigh it, or at least be a factor in determining centricity? --Jf518 23:40, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • Maybe. It's weird because despite all our discussion, we have no firm standard defining centricity. In many scenes? No, Susan's in more than Walt in "Special". A main character both on the island and present in flashes? No, Shannon gets that in "Hearts and Minds". What if they actually have flashes from their point of view? Not good enough - we have a whole page for extra centric flashes. Then came season 5, when all rules went out the window. In season 6, we tried to go by transitions, the only reliable measure. But that too isn't perfect. Would Locke have been the centric character in "The Substitute" even if we didn't transition to his corpse? Probably. But then why not MIB, since we transition between the two? --- Balk Of Fametalk 00:23, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
    • If you don't mind, I'd like a little clarification on what generally constitutes a "non-centric flash." Does the specific flash need to be centric to them, or do they merely need to be a present and active part of whatever is going on in the flash. For example, should we credit Daniel for a non-centric flash in The Constant? He definitely had a major part in that episode, but it wasn't centric to him. I'd like to suggest that Charlie and Juliet are added to the list of characters in the infobox list, and that they get a "non-centric flash" credit for this episode. Anyone for or against this? vote now, the polls are open! --Jf518 13:02, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
        • "Non-cetric flash" is a misnomer. The list we now have contains only centric flashes, but they are centric to someone other than the episode's centric character. So The flash at the end of "Everybody Loves Hugo" is Desmond's -- not Ben's or Locke's, even though they share it. Yet the episode remains Hurley's. We must rename that article. --- Balk Of Fametalk 18:37, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
      • This is a multi centric episode so anyone who had a flash is listed a centric, unlike an episode such as "Ab Aeterno" which is Richard-centric though had non-centric flashbacks for MiB and Ilana. If Richard had had a short flash in the fashion as those two had, it would've been a multi-centric episode, this way it is a Richard-centric episode with non-centric flashes from MiB and Ilana's POVs. --Orhan94 13:16, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Orhan94 for the clarification. In that case, I would like to propose we add Charlie and Juliet and credit them with a "shared-centric" for this episode. the scenes with Juliet may not have began from her pov, but she remembered at the same time Sawyer did, and both were the focus of the flash by the end. For Charlie, he had multiple scenes in the FS. He also awakened with Claire and Aaron; that scene began as Claire-centric but it ended as a "Claire-Charlie-Aaron family -centric." Thoughts for or against this?--Jf518 13:58, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Flight 815 v Ajira flying over Bamboo Grove in the end

A discussion here covered whether the article synopsis ought call the plane Jack sees "Ajira 316 or Flight 815" or "Ajira 316" or just "the plane" as Lost's script refers to it. This long ongoing discussion involves detailed debate over a theory's validity rather than simply the nature of this article. For that reason, I have moved it to theory talk. --- Balk Of Fametalk 14:56, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

I see you've edited The_End/Theories page. Since you posted discussion about The_End on the The_End/Theories, I'll take your lead and post discussion about The_End/Theories on The_End page. Hmm, did I get that right? It all seems disorganized, confusing and misleading but I'm just following your lead, so don't blame me, it's your idea.

Well, on to the discussion. It's a theory that Charlie didn't say "bearded wonder" because Charlie has a beard himself. Does it make sense for Charlie to mock Desmond via his beard when Charlie has a beard himself? It would be like me mocking you by saying, "you're a troll". If I was a troll it wouldn't make any sense. However, if I wasn't, it would make perfect sense.BlindedByTheLight 15:24, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with "The End" or [[The End/Theories]]. --- Balk Of Fametalk 15:30, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
Note the gray underside of Flight 815: http://flyawaysimulation.com/modules/Images/gallery/fs2004/lost.jpg Oceanic was gray on the underside under the cockpit and part of first class.

Now see Ajira 316: Flight316.jpg Ajira was white on the underside under the cockpit and part of first class.

Comparisons of the plane flying overhead the bamboo grove with those previous shots prove it to be Flight 815 - or at least not Ajira 316. It will probably take you repeated viewings of Jack's view of the bamboo grove flight overhead to notice it, but I've seen it especially in the last frames as the plane is about to go out of view: the underside beneath the cockpit and part of first class is a darker color than white. Any computer whiz kid out there who can refine Jack's view of the aircraft? Threemilliontoone 16:46, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Nice observation. But still an illogical conclusion. This is tantamount to noting Sawyer's impossible hair growth between "Pilot, Part 1" and "Pilot, Part 2" and concluding... he was replaced by an alternate universe clone. Ajira 316 actually changed tail numbers between "The Incident, Part 1" and "Recon". Were those different planes? --- Balk Of Fametalk 16:58, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Balk, I think I know what's happening here.

First, I'll bet it makes no sense to you that Jack could be having a near death experience, dreaming, or just re-imagining the past because that's the way he wants it to be. BlindedByTheLight 18:06, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't. According to the finale, Jack realized "there are no shortcuts, there are no do-overs". He no longer fantasized about undoing the past. Furthermore, he realized his destiny lay in coming to the island, becoming protector and relighting the Heart. Having realized that, Oceanic flying over without crashing wouldn't at all re-imagine the past as he wanted it. --- Balk Of Fametalk 18:24, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Also, I'll bet it also makes no sense to you that The End is reversing the action in the pilot episode? In other words, in the pilot episode, plane crashes, Jack gets up, leaves grove, then in the finale, Jack enters grove, lies down, plane doesn't crash. Couldn't possibly be symbolic of reversing events right? BlindedByTheLight 18:06, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

A thematic allusion doesn't mean a literal reversal. But if it did, the logical conclusion of that reversal is Jack enters grove, lies down, crashed plane takes off. Which is precisely what happened. Bizarro plane never crashing? That's not a reversal of the first events. It's just an alternative. --- Balk Of Fametalk 18:24, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Finally, it makes no sense that while we've already seen 815 safely flying over the island in LA_X, it couldn't possibly happen again in The End, right?. BlindedByTheLight 18:06, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

It's not the flash sideways. The island was submerged there. It's not an separate universe. In the end, Lost contained none. It's not a fantasy. Jack would not fantasize it. So what are you arguing? --- Balk Of Fametalk 18:24, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Dude, I think I know what's happening here. Someone gave you what they said was the truth serum from Lost, so you think you know everything. Hate to tell you this Balk, but that wasn't truth serum, it was LSD!!!!!!!BlindedByTheLight 18:06, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Proving again that you don't pay close attention. The "truth serum" in "He's Our You" was LSD. --- Balk Of Fametalk 18:24, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

To the contrary dude, you are the one making the mistake. I said "wasn't truth serum, it was LSD!!!!!!!", which by the way proves my point that you ain't making any sense. Please stop tripping on the acid. Just trying to help.BlindedByTheLight 19:05, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

You said someone gave me "what they said was the truth serum from Lost". It was LSD. If you meant they gave me the LSD from Lost, you could have said someone gave me "the truth serum from Lost". Instead, you implied they gave me something else - LSD.
It is crucial that we settle this point. The well-being of the article depends on it. --- Balk Of Fametalk 19:15, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

I was making a joke when I said, "Someone gave you what they said was the truth serum from Lost...". Now, in response to this you said, "It was LSD". Really? Someone gave you LSD? Dude, please, I don't want to hear anymore.BlindedByTheLight 22:56, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

"This is tantamount to noting Sawyer's impossible hair growth between "Pilot, Part 1" and "Pilot, Part 2" and concluding... he was replaced by an alternate universe clone." Actually, it's tantamount to seeing John Locke paralyzed in a wheelchair and then recovering the use of his legs on the island upon crashing. After seeing that the island could do end paralysis, what's the big deal about Sawyer's hair length? Returning to the subject, assuming a gradual increase to a cruising speed of 550, Ajira was a hundred or more miles away by the time Jack saw a plane - and that's if it took only about 15 minutes from reviving the heart of the island to finally lying down at the bamboo grove. The term "Ajira" does not belong in the canon text because it makes no sense, remains unproved and always will. The well-being of the article depends on removing the unproved claim. Just say that "Jack saw a plane". That is a true statement. Any conclusions to be drawn about its meaning and significance should be discussed outside the article content itself. Threemilliontoone 23:30, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Survivors?

Why is there a 'survivors' section? Didn't everyone die at the end (albeit at different times, even spanning a millenium)? --Stevehim 17:18, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

While that is true, it refers to people still alive at the end of real time events on the Island. People who were still alive after Jack died and we didn't see how they died and ended up in the flash sideways.--Baker1000 17:24, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
Either way, it's a pretty odd list. There's this section on "trivia" about the episode, and then suddenly there's this lump called "survivors". It lists those who leave the island and those who stay on the island in this episode, which is covered just fine elsewhere in the article. And then it offers a random selection of other characters. Walt? Charlie Hume? Why are we mentioning them in this article? How about Carmen Reyes - she survived the series and never came to the island. Shall we add her? Lara Chang was once on the island as is still alive, as far as we know. Does she deserve a spot? Or, instead, perhaps, should we leave a final tally of character statuses to their respective portals? --- Balk Of Fametalk 17:59, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
That wouldn't be a bad idea at all...--Station7 20:42, September 12, 2011 (UTC)


Tail Section Surviors

The tail section survivors (Jim, Eli, Nancy, the German, the blonde haired guy, the curly haired guy and four anonymous) what happened in the series will survive or die, perhaps?

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