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Not a Blooper really

I'm not too sure about this, but on bloopers and continunity errors section it says that "Sayid says the helicopter landed on the freighter in the middle of the day. Shadows and sunlight in the actors' hair indicate the filming was done either around sunrise or sunset." However just because Sayid says this does not mean that Sayid mentioned this to Frank in the middle of the Day.Edenane 05:47, 2 March 2008 (PST) The shadows in the scene where the helicopter lands, do indeed indicate that is it not midday. they are roughly the same length as the person casting them. Assuming they are located in the tropics, it is probably roughly mid morning or afternoon. It's quite probable that Sayid just said "middle of the day" to indicate bright sunlight, not actually meaning that it was noon. He just said it to indicate the difference in what it should be, sunset. So its not a blooper, just Sayid approximating since he wouldn't have a watch that shows "boat time" anyway.--Chesebrgr 05:15, 3 March 2008 (PST)

The placard next to the oil pressure gauge indicates it is for TORQUE, not engine oil. Engine system gauges are usually marked with the green-yellow-red band indicating safe-caution-danger. See:Wikipedia Images Bell UH-1 instrument panel. --Psych-Gen 12:37, 8 March 2008 (PST)

Differences between the "trip times" of the rocket and the helicopter

  • "Why did the helicopter took "over a day" extra in island's time to get to the boat, while the rocket only took an extra 31 minutes to get to the island?" First, the helicopter left at dusk and arrived midday according to Sayid. That'd be closer to sixteen hours than over one day (24+ hours). Second, the rocket would be traveling significantly faster in real time than the helicopter making the difference in time traveled, even considering the strange Island effects, much lower. Third, we have no idea how the difference in time between the island and places-not-the-island relate. Mathematically speaking two instances of two variations in time are not enough to derive a formula without more information. We don't know if the formula is, for example, exponential or linear. This assumes there is a logical way to predict the time difference. It could be completely random or include far too many variables to reliably calculate (mass, humidity, wind speed and direction, whatever). Still, if there is a formula, it is likely that the speed the object is traveling would correlate to the time difference.--Lanie 23:39, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Air Date

The airdate is mistakenly displayed as Feb 21, when it is being aired on Feb 28. David 10:17, 2 February 2008 (PST)

Noticed the same, wanted to correct it, but edition is blocked. --Ptrue 16:07, 4 February 2008 (PST)
Yeah, seriously, guys, can we fix this please? Ddevlin 19:14, 7 February 2008 (PST)

Press Release

The press release is up at ABC Medianet today, with guest stars and writer/director info:

Guest starring are Jeremy Davies as Daniel Faraday, Rebecca Mader as Charlotte, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, Alan Dale as Charles Widmore, Sonya Walger as Penelope “Penny” Widmore, Graham McTavish as sergeant, Darren Keefe as Billy, Edward Conery as auctioneer, Marc Vann as doctor, Fisher Stevens as George Minkowski, Kevin Durand as Keamy and Anthony Azizi as Omar. “The Constant” was written by Carlton Cuse & Damon Lindelof and directed by Jack Bender.

http://abcmedianet.com/DNR/2008/pdf/dnr021108.pdf --Compossible 11:22, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Alan Dale

Call me crazy, but I think Alan Dale is the actor and Charles Widmore is the character...ShadowUltra 13:38, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Origin of the name

With a name like "The Constant", we can expect two kinds of episode (at least). One (the most likely, given the summary) is that it has some relationship to Desmond's KillerForesight (tm) Mechanics. He's talked before about "not changing the picture in the box". The other (the one I'd like) is that the episode has some insight on the the numbers and the Valenzetti Equation (the word "Constant" brought this to my head). What does everybody else think?--Ainulindale 16:49, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Guess this one was cleared up with the constant being "an anchor" that a person can grab on to when they are flashing back and forth between times. Penelope becomes Desmond's constant. Is it possible that babies don't survive because they go through a similar experience as Desmond (perhaps reverting back to invitro) but have no constant and end up dying like Minkowski? --jbeeeb 06:29, 29 February 2008 (PST)

After watching the episode i actually know it's about "an anchor" but i also think it can be about Penelope and Des being faithful to each other. Enzo_2309

What's up with the directors?

I mean, so far Season 4 has a really creative line-up:

4x01 Jack Bender

4x02 Stephen Williams

4x03 Jack Bender

4x04 Stephen Williams

4x05 Jack Bender

What's up with that? Where's Paul Edwards and Eric Laneuville and Bobby Roth (they've gotta get him back). I mean, I love Jack Bender and Stephen Williams, but WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? I know 4x07 is supposedly directed by Stephen Semel, so that's good news. I'm hoping 4x06 (since it's a spoiler deleted episode) will be either Eric Laneuville or Bobby Roth. Evil-pineapples 16:57, 11 February 2008 (PST)

It wasn't all that different in season three. Of the first five, four were by Williams/Bender with one by Paul Edwards. Dharmatel4 19:10, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Mikhail?

I know he's not listed as a guest star, but did I see Mikhail in the episode preview shown after "Eggtown"? I'm pretty sure he was in there (but he looked different). It wouldn't be too farfetched; ABC have left certain guest stars out of the press releases before to preserve secrecy. Someone please confirm this. It'd be so awesome if Mikhail showed up somehow. Evil-pineapples 19:11, 21 February 2008 (PST)

That is not Mikhail, I just re-watched the promo. Also, I'm pretty sure the producers have confirmed Mikhail as officially dead.--Theslate 19:49, 21 February 2008 (PST)

  • Meh, you're right. Just some dude who looks a lot like Mikhail when you see him for 0.5 seconds (That must have been intentional; remember ABC's promo for Expose? Loaded with foilers and empty promises....) But thanks for helping out. Evil-pineapples 19:50, 21 February 2008 (PST)

difficulties in the timeline of the show

The constant is set on day 94 on the freighter. But on the Island its the end of the day 96. There is a solid unbroken timeline going back to the end of DOC on day 88 that has no room for interpretation and no extra days that can be removed. The timeline of the show seems broken in a fundimental way and there is no way to really solve it without eliminating something seen or said in the show. Lostpedia's timeline is correct. Its the show that seems to have made an error.Dharmatel4 19:05, 28 February 2008 (PST)

  • No, it's not a problem. There's something fishy with time on the island, remember? The 20 minute helicopter ride seemed to take a day to those on the island. Danhm 19:09, 28 February 2008 (PST)
  • EXACTLY -- We need to accept that time on the island is different than time in the rest of the world... Desmond doesn't know it is Christmas Eve until he is back in the real world. We are unstuck in time.--Chuck 19:12, 28 February 2008 (PST)
There are a bunch of problems with that. There is communication between the freighter and the island. Its day 96 on the Island and day 94 on the freighter. If time is going at different rates between the two, why are there only two days difference after nearly 100 days. Dharmatel4 19:16, 28 February 2008 (PST)
We don't have enough information at this point to really know what's going on. Danhm 19:21, 28 February 2008 (PST)
If time was passing at dramatically different rates on the island and off the island... wouldn't it seem like the islanders would be talking really slowly on the phone? It must be a imperceptable difference... seconds or less. --Beardedjack 19:25, 28 February 2008 (PST)
We don't have enough information, mathematically speaking, to determine the difference in time on and off the island. We can't even tell how and if this difference is applied to physical phenomena. Radio waves (like with the sat. phone) may be traveling fast enough to make the difference in time negligible to the listener. The rocket would travel faster than the helicopter and may account for the time difference there. We can be pretty sure that it is a two day difference between the island and the real world but without knowing how the time difference is defined we can't assume it's right or wrong in any logical sense. --Lanie 23:53, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Has everyone forgotten that Desmond was at ground zero when the hatch imploded? As for why there's only 2 days difference out of 100, remember that the implosion of the hatch changed the electromagnetic properties of the island (and the world?). --NotThatBen 09:09, 01 March 2008 (EST)
Sayid mentions that he forgot it's almost Christmas. That implies that the timeline is wrong and it's not Christmas yet on the Island either. He could just not realize that it should be past Christmas according to the Island's time because he hasn't regularly been checking a calendar and has been uner a lot of stress. --macosx 19:30, 28 February 2008 (PST)
Yeah, kind of like the episode of Stargate SG-1. In season 2 a blackhole was basing through the wormhole and slowly things down. Including speech. I just did the math. There's a two day difference between when the helicopter took off and landed, so it will still be Christmas Eve to Desmond. However, it would not be to Jack and co.--Cormacalian 19:32, 28 February 2008 (PST)
If days on the island are around a half-hour a day longer than days in the real world, that would put the Island about two days ahead after around 96 days. As far as communcation, with 30 extraminutes distributed over a day, the delay would not be noticable. Dharmatel4 19:32, 28 February 2008 (PST)
Daniel's "payload" would not have been 30 minutes different if there is a 30 minute difference per day... no? ProjectHate 19:44, 28 February 2008 (PST)
Good point... seems like there's also some time distortion in the 'trip' itself, perhaps affected by the course taken there? --Beardedjack 19:48, 28 February 2008 (PST)
Yeah, but the payload was only supposed to take like less than a minute to get to Faraday, the longer the time it takes to get there, I'd say the greater the distance between time on the Island and Real Time. Hence why the "20 minute" chopper trip took a day or so because it took longer to pass through the time barrier than the payload did.
Note the path to the boat drawn at the bottom of the piece of paper Frank has in front of him during the flight. Perhaps the correct paths to and from the island aren't linear? --Sidwood 21:25, 28 February 2008 (PST)
  • Yes it is, which is why he had to stay exactly on course for 40 miles. The freighter isn't at the "mouth" of the vector, so at the 40 mile mark he had to turn east for 7 km. --Litany42 06:52, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Maybe, but Daniel seems meticulous enough to have the payload set to travel along the same exact course as they flew in on. Could be wrong, but that's just how I perceive him.ProjectHate 19:50, 28 February 2008 (PST)

It could just be that the Snowglobe is a looking glass, a trick lens that distorts what you see when you try to look through it. The timeline is safe and sound. When you look from the island out or from the freighter in, it's similar but just a little off.

I've been getting this funky feeling since "The Brig" that we miscounted the days (the last day anyone explicitly said outloud perviously was I think day 88 in "D.O.C.") ... but at any rate is it possible that when the chopper folk went through that storm they went through a worm hole, IE the trip to them lasted the appropriate 20 minutes but 2 days really did pass on both Island and frieghter? I propose we leave the day part of the episode grid blank or as a question mark until we're sure; perhaps in next week's episode, someone on the island will make a Christmas reference and we'll be completely sure. --Jeff 10:42, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Perhaps the time difference isn't constant, it could be a difference onf one second one day and one hour the next...we don't know yet if the time-difference is always the same.Thelordnyax 11:26, 29 February 2008 (PST)

I'm starting to wonder whether the Losties will even realize that they dates are off, since they obviously missed Thanksgiving and since Sayid was convinced by the calendar that it was December 24th, saying that he had forgotten the date. So it's entirely possible that the Losties will just accept the timeline presented by the Freighter people. Except maybe for Juliet, who might have a better sense of the date from being with the Others. Jimbo the tubby 11:31, 29 February 2008 (PST)

I still feel that it's the same day on both the island and the frieghter, or else the two wouldn't be able to communicate with each other. I think it's something about the trip itself that causes time cease functioning properly; causing the delay in travel in both directions (30 min too and a day and a half from). Incidentally, heres a good point: how are we sure that there's a 2-day difference. Sayid saw a calendar marked up to Dec. 24 and assumed it was Dec. 24. But if that room was wrecked a few days before hand, why would the crew continue to go in there just to mark off the days? He's been without a calendar for three months so his internal calendar is obviously off; who's to say it's not day 96 on both island and frieghter, but Sayid thinks it's day 94 because the calendar is only marked to that date because the room was abandoned two days before. I'm not willing to believe just yet that the frieghter and island are on two different days until I see more canonical evidence on the show. (Oh and

before you say it has to be Christmas Eve off the island because Penny answered the phone: anyone who celebrates Christmas is likely to have the tree up several days before and after the holiday, so if Desmond was off by two days in calling her, we wouldn't know from visual clues) --Jeff 12:25, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Desmond tells her that he'll call her on Christmas Eve, and I'm pretty sure she says something like "you did it" or whatever, confirming that he calls her on the day that he promised. As for communication between two points in time, see the movie Frequency for an example of how this could work. Jimbo the tubby 12:30, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Also the presents around the tree appear to still be wrapped.

As I have posted below, I think I have it figured out. If the island is about 30 minutes behind per day (that is to day, every "day" on the island is only 23.5 hours long in "real world" time) then that accounts for the two days. 0.5 hours lost for 96 days is exactly 48 hours, or two days. This would reconcile both Day 96 on the island, but only Day 94 on the freighter. --Litany42 18:01, 1 March 2008 (PST)

RE: This discussion and the discussion on the timeline article for day 70-100: Before we split the days in the blue grids on episode pages and make presumptions in the articles, let's wait a few more episodes to be sure that we didn't miscount somewhere along the way; they night say "Dec. 24" out loud and prove some discrepency of our along the way...there's more detail on this on the timeline discussion page, but I suggest for now we just leave the days at "unconfirmed" or "?" until we're absolutly positive we have the facts right. As an encyclopedic site, It'd rather be safe than sorry. --Jeff 09:16, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Why this "side-effect" didn't happen to the passangers of 815

Feel free to comment on what I'm saying, but I know that people are going to say "well how come none of the many survivors of 815 suffered this?" Would it be unreasonable to assume that it was the release of the electromagnetic charge in the Swan that caused this? Daniel asked if Desmond was recently exposed to electromagnetivity, he may not have known about the Swan. So anyone coming to the island is exposed to it, and some people may feel these affects. They just got fortuante in that none of the freighter crew were affected, and perhaps this explains why they were chosen for the operation and someone like Mikownski(sp) was ordered to stay on ship. Just some thoughts Voodoo 19:12, 28 February 2008 (PST)

  • Daniel said it happens when you're exposed to radiation or strong magnetism. Desmond was in the middle of the Swan magnet blast. Daniel says he's been exposed to a lot of radiation (thus his worry about needing a constant). Minkowski and his buddy, forget his name, didn't stick to the bearing and were exposed to the magnetic field around the Island that Daniel was sort of warning Frank to avoid. The rest of the survivors didn't experience any of this, except for possibly Locke, whom was close to the Swan blast and thrown from the crater. Ecko too, but he died. --macosx 19:30, 28 February 2008 (PST)
The other character present at the Swan implosion was Charlie. He survived and didn't appear to have any of Desmond's side effect. But perhaps he was supposed to, which is why he was supposed to die. The universe was 'course-correcting' from Charlie's lack of a brain aneurysm. But also, Desmond's symptoms didn't start until he attempted to leave the island. So the affected ones from the Swan implosion won't experience anything until they attempt to leave. -- WanderingMathematician  talk  contribs  email  14:18, 29 February 2008 (PST)
The universe was 'course-correcting' from Charlie's lack of a brain aneurysm. Must be one arsehole of a universe if it kills someone because he refuses to have a brain aneurism.--Nevermore 03:55, 2 March 2008 (PST)
  • I think we should assume that the time-displacement effects vary according to how much total exposure to radiation you have had. It makes sense that the radiation causing the time-displacement effect is in a ring or dome around the island. It is thinner in places and absent in others. If you plot the correct course, you can go through a hole in the field and get no exposure. If you veer slightly off course, you get a small dose. If you've already had strong radiation exposure in the past, this small dose puts you over the top. Minkowski could have had a strong reaction due to a single exposure if he happened to go through a thick band of radiation. --Emily76 16:42, 29 February 2008 (PST)


Could these side effects be the sickness suffered by Rousseau's crew?

  • Maybe it was the constant exposure to the electromagnetic radiation. Desmond was on the island for 3 years. The Losties have been there around 3 months. Rousseau was crazy, and maybe the columns that kept "the Monster" at bay, protected the Others. This is all speculation, of course.    Mr Vain    talk    contribs    email   19:26, 28 February 2008 (PST)
  • I thought about it being the sickness as well, especially when the doctor gave Minkowski the shot, it was like the vaccine.--Theslate 19:24, 28 February 2008 (PST)

Could this be why some stay on the island permanently. If they leave they are subject to these "flashbacks". If they stay on the island they are not. The Oceanic 6 were able to find some constant to grab on to to overcome the effects. Similarly, maybe more did come off, and died like Minkowski due to the effects of "flashbacks". The 6 were the only ones who could get a true constant. --jbeeeb 06:36, 29 February 2008 (PST)

It would only be the people who had been exposed to high levels of radiation or electromagnetic activity.Thelordnyax 11:28, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • When the hatch blew a purple light (similar to the light from Daniel's device) bathed the island. I'm thinking its this purple light that is the source of the radiation, and i expect everyone on the island caught it. Also, while it seemed to have happened a long time ago on island, im guessing the hatch blew maybe quite recently from the perspective of the freighter. This is how geroge and his buddy both caught their radiation too.

Me and my friends have been arguing the whole day about this episode of lost. I say that everyone in the island somehow have this "side-effect", ever since they crashed in the island, but since they all haven't been exposed to radiation, they haven't noticed their warps through time. This would of course explain why the whole show is centered around flash backs and flash forwards. I thought i'de ask the lostpedia community for information on wether this is a valid belief or not. please write back for informaation on this theory.--Albrowniswrong 15:59, 29 February 2008 (PST)Albrowniswrong

  • ...did Rose undergo Radiation treatment? Willo 21:18, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • There are logical problems with this theory. Flashbacks and flash-forwards are accepted methods of television storytelling and not dependent on time shifting. Time shifting seems to be pretty dramatic and noticeable. If other forms of time warping exist that are not perceptible, maybe everybody on the planet is warping through time at this very moment. I think you are on to something by connecting flashbacks and time shifting, but you are being too literal. You'd be better off saying that the flashbacks and time shifts serve the same literary purpose - for example, an imperative that the characters take control of how their past shapes their future. --Emily76 20:06, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • I think it is possible that some characters have time travelled in an episode that we presumed to be a flashback or flashforward. Or that some individual scenes have been a travel rather than a memory. I certainly wouldn't rule anything out at this point as this episode posed a lot of new possibilities. However, I would find it difficult to believe that most flashbacks and flashforwards are something more than that; otherwise, we would be seeing the other characters in catatonic states, losing their memory, and suffering the physical problems that killed Eloise and Minkowski.--MixMasterMike 20:20, 2 March 2008 (PST)
  • I think you could be right - the survivors having flashbacks think they are just watching or remembering what happened in the past. If only they could know they are actually there, they might be able to change things. A bit like a lucid dream, as soon as you realize you're dreaming you can control it. I think soon we'll start seeing some of them figuring it out, and trying to change things in the past, by acting with foreknowledge in their flashbacks. Maybe this explains why Jack's dad is (possibly!) alive, Locke is not paralysed, and all the other weird happenings? It could explain why Jack wants to get back to the island - he wants to change something else in his past.--Chesebrgr 02:54, 3 March 2008 (PST)
  • I'm not sure the cause of the radiation was the failsafe key. I mean, is it not possible - if the radiation existed before Flight 815 crashed - that Locke, Rose, et al were all cured because of the radiation? Mikay 08:40, 3 March 2008 (PST)

New RL Scientific Evidence w/ Electromagnetic Exposure and Distortions in Time Perception

I don't want to rip-off my favorite magazine Scientific American Mind, but I caught a new study that works off of other studies starting around 2003 that totally work into this episode. The article is titled "An Odd Sense of Timing" written by Pascal Wallisch from the Center for Nueral Science at New York University. Here's the underlining parallel... "In a 2003 study Giacomo Koch and his co-workers at the University of Rome Tor Vergata took a different approach by distorting time-interval estimates in healthy people using transcranial magnetic stimulation. [1]This technique focuses a strong ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELD on one region of the brain, temporarily disrupting local nueronal function. These researchers found when the frontal lobe of the subjects was targeted, subjects consistently underestimated the duration of a sound" (my emphasis) The way I see it the argument in the article goes like this... Nueron firing may be an incredibly accurate tool for a method of internal clock or time sense. Nueron firing is disrupted by exposure to electromagnetic fields. The lost connection? Big electromagnetic field, Big time distortion sense. Works well for the argument that Desmonds whole 'episode' may have been internal and hallucinatory, which also follows the writers commitment that 'No one is REALLY effecting the timeline'. Is it not possible he was just passing out and reliving distorted memories in his own head? The only two connections I see there that contradict are Penny, who may have just been overly emotional to hear from him to care about the date or time he called, and Danielle's journal. Also Danielle words it clearly to Sayyid that it is 'perception of time' that may be off. The purpose of the Swan maybe judged off this evidence as well. Why give the Swanies a task to consistently input a code over and over again when we can assume having the technology to control such a powerful magnetic force would come with the technology to keep it under wraps until otherwise? Then putting other people to watch them who are closer to the electromagnetic field? Why to test their time sense of course! Works poorly when you consider they put in the whole rocket experiment scene, which lends more credit to the space/time/Einstein/physics theories that go beyond perceptions/psychology -- Aphexed

Flashbacks?

Okay. So tonight wasn't flashbacks, but it wasn't Flashes Before Your Eyes either. How are we going to categorize it? Also, it seems like the flash...things weren't independant of the actual on-island story. So should we maybe not break them up into two headings? --Cormacalian 19:13, 28 February 2008 (PST)

  • I think keeping them in one section is a good idea -- they are in chronological order that way, as strange as that seems. Danhm 19:19, 28 February 2008 (PST)
  • based on Desmond finding his constant this seems like it might be the only occurrence of this type of event--Redheadguy719 19:21, 28 February 2008 (PST)
It's definitely not the typical flashbacks, but it is in the past and it did always happen (it wasn't a different timeline or change history; this "side-effect" is why Desmond was kicked out of the military, etc.), so flashbacks is fair enough. Otherwise it would be "Consciousness time travel" or something. --macosx 19:30, 28 February 2008 (PST)
How was it not Flashes Before Your Eyes? It was clearly an offshoot of that idea. I think we should make a "Flashes" section. Otherwise, it'll be confusing. dposse 20:04, 28 February 2008 (PST)
Well for one thing, Darlton said they would never do Flashes Before Your Eyes again. So, in the eyes of the creator's, this wasn't the same format. Also it was caused by a side-effect of leaving the island, not turning the key.
Okay, but it was a variation on the idea from Flashes Before Your Eyes. Instead of "seeing" the future, he was in the past/future. dposse 20:10, 28 February 2008 (PST)
I'm sorry, but you're just dead wrong. The idea of time-transported consciousness is (probably not even originally) from the book Slaughterhouse 5. We need to accept the fact that there are exceptions to the flashback/flashforward "rules", and just write it up for what it is. Personally, I think that the episode synopsis should be fluid, BUT have 2 chronology links specifically enumerating events (with bullet points or something) in the 2 different time periods.
As far as I could tell, whenever Desmond was in the present, his "past" self was just unconscious, which is why he would wake up on the floor of the bathroom and stuff. Do we really need two chronologies full of stuff like "Desmond lies unconscious on the floor of the auction house bathroom as the sink fills up with water, then he eventually wakes up again"?
I agree that his 1996-body was, in most/all cases, seemingly unconscious, but I think that's important to note these lapses of unconsciousness. Given that these would be bullet point chronologies directly linked from the episode synopsis, I think that it would be read with the context (especially if there's a foreword before the chronology) that his consciousness is leaping.
It occurred to me that it wasn't really F-B-Y-E, but sort of a flash forward to a flashback. Notice, there was no "flashing" sound effect. Nate 21:54, 28 February 2008 (PST)
The only differences between this episode and FBYE are 1) FBYE was a flashback to a past flashing trip and TC was just a straightfoward flashing trip in present time, 2) FBYE was about a single continuous flashing trip and TC was about a series of flashing trips 3) FBYE was a flash into the past and TC was a flash from the past into the present. Because of #1 - the fact that Desmond is flashing NOW rather remembering a flashing that happened to him previously, means that the whole episode is basically from his perspective a linear narrative - and so the summary should not be divided between into two sections. --Jackdavinci 23:19, 28 February 2008 (PST)

I think it's a mistake to call this "flash time". A more appropriate name would be a "time shift". I understand we're trying to stay with the conventions of the "flash forwards" and "flashbacks", but there really is no "flash". Desmond's consciousness just shifts in time. - Nate 08:33, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Daniel crying in past episode

I think it was "The Beginning of the End" but it could have been "Confirmed Dead," not sure. But, nevertheless, we see a crying Daniel in response to 815 being found. Perplexing, but written off as insignificant at the moment. What if somehow Desmond's visit from the future made him aware of the future path for the plane. Somehow he thinks he is responsible for causing the plane to crash in the ocean rather than on the island?

I dunno... you have to keep in mind that the Desmond talking to past-Faraday is 1996-Desmond. He has no idea who or what Sayid, the island, 815, or anything is. He didn't mention a thing about any of that to past-Faraday. Nor is his name anywhere near Oceanic 815. Now, given, the fact that the news stated that 815 crashed in the south pacific where (I may be assuming - can't remember if it's stated) Faraday knows the island is. The question I'm wondering is, and forgive me if it was addressed in the show, does past-Faraday know about the island? If so, it makes sense for him to write that Desmond'll be his constant, because he knows that future-Faraday is near/with 2004-Desmond.

Probably insignificant still , but I'll bet that it has something to do with the time traveling Desmond.ProjectHate 19:53, 28 February 2008 (PST)

I think it was fear. He remembered that Desmond said that he ended up on a Island, so he knew that this was the time. However, there's a big problem here: Desmond and past-Daniel's comments that Future-Daniel didn't remember the events that Past-Daniel was experiencing. This could be due to his memory blackouts, or.... dposse 20:01, 28 February 2008 (PST)
I don't think it's necessarily clear that future-Faraday's notebook "changed" or that he didn't remember Desmond - for all we know he was preparing for this. I took it as there is one timeline. Desmond never changed anything, the things he did in 1996 were done by his 1996-self, despite that 1996-self jumping to a "future" which 1996-Desmond probably ended up disregarding as hallucinations.
Faraday's diary did _not_ change. Remember the previous episode, with Charlotte and the cards? Faraday's short term memory is damaged. That doesn't mean his long-term necessarily is, but it was probably a hint that his memory is damaged.Moo 09:33, 2 March 2008 (PST)

Definitely not insignficant. Faraday is also unstuck in time -- that is why he needs a constant too -- he "remembers" something about his experiences in the future with the 815 survivors but it is not clear to him what is going on.--Chuck 20:30, 28 February 2008 (PST)

...he's not "unstuck in time" yet - or at least as far as we know hasn't been.
I think it's possible that the flashback we saw of Daniel in Confirmed Dead was to Daniel at a present time we haven't seen on the show yet, as Desmond in 1996 is to Desmond's experiences in the present in this episode. It would make sense that Daniel would be confused about what was going on (we aren't shown a large enough piece of the scene for full context) if that past Daniel was all of a sudden experiencing what Desmond does in this episode. Perhaps that is also partly why Daniel wanted to stay on the island in The Economist; he thought that leaving the island he would unstick in time before he was able to investigate and understand it all further.
he's been unstuck (maybe for years, he said symptoms vary wildly on a case to case basis) and getting to the island and meeting Desmond is what has re-stuck him... That's why he can't explain his crying in the flashback, and why he needed a "caretaker".

I wonder if Daniel's constant is a thing, and not Desmond. Maybe he needs to find something on the island to restore balance to his own chi. If Desmond was enough, then surely talking to him on the satphone would have been enough, like when Des and Penny talked together? --Spikezilla 21:28, 28 February 2008 (PST)

I think that your wondering is fruitless, especially because his notes state "Desmond Hume is the constant". And you're the second person in this sections to talk as if Faraday has already had conscious time-transportation.
I agree. There's no evidence that Daniel has gotten unstuck in time. Here's the real question: Was that written in his notebook before Desmond got on the helicopter?
  • There *is* evidence to suggest that Daniel has gotten unstuck in time -- and I believe he is. He is working with radiation at Oxford, radiation specifically designed to send animals into the future. He covers his body with the lead vest and Desmond asks "What do you use to cover your head?" -- which of course is nothing. Daniel has already implied that exposure to radiation can result in someone becoming unstuck in time, given the right parameters. Further, his memory loss and his note to himself that Desmond is his constant should anything go wrong (i.e. the "right parameters" come to pass), also lend support to the theory that Daniel himself is indeed unstuck in time. --Litany42 09:39, 29 February 2008 (PST)
No... That's why he was surprised when he looked at it. Unless it was written and the page was "hidden" somehow, then it was definitely written in the past to change the future, right?
If wondering is fruitless then why even bother to postulate anything? Let's just get rid of discussion entirely
I think that it was there already, but '04 Daniel has memory problems (remember the cards?) and doesn't recognize/understand everything in the notebook. Daniel told Desmond "you can't change the future," so according to him Desomnd couldn't do anything that would suddenly add to the journal. This isn't the same as the photo in Back to the Future...--Redheadguy719 07:09, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Let's look at the facts we know so far. Daniel knew just what questions to ask and what information to give to Desmond when they talked on the phone. We are not shown that page in the notebook without the writing, and there's nothing to support the speculation that the writing appeared there as a result of Desmond's actions in the past. In fact, Daniel said it wasn't possible to change the past. Therefore, in my mind, Daniel was well aware of what would happen because he remembers meeting Desmond in the past and guides him in the present on the basis of that meeting (Daniel doesn't seem to have any problem with long-term memory, just short-term), and the writing was always there. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:39, 29 February 2008 (PST) Addendum to this comment: Actually, I just looked at part of it again, and Des tells Daniel that Dan will not remember Des in the future (presumably from memory problem, that we pretty much know now is from the radiation exposure to his head); therefore, I amend my take on the facts that Daniel is well aware of what would happen, not because he remembers Des, but because it's tied heavily to the research he was doing at Oxford. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:30, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • Perhaps he wrote the note about Desmond being the constant, as a note to reassure himself before he entered the volatile Island-field that he had a constant available.. just in case he contracted the mind-time-dislocation.. he seems like a man who would rely on notes over thoughts held in his brain, so maybe it was simply natural for him to remind himself about it in his journal before travelling to the island.. as there is nothing to indicate that he wrote that note eight years ago, i would have assumed that he would use up journals on a monthly basis..--Jordanoth 06:42, 1 March 2008 (PST)
    • This doesn't work because of Daniel's memory problem, like a person with an aging brain (see science paper abstract I posted below), he remembers far past events, but his short-term memory is 'broken' (support: he can't remember the 3 cards after a short period of time, meaning he can't form the new memories in total, but he remembers his research from years ago and is able to help Desmond; this leads me to understand that this was an old note he remembers in his diary from 1996, before his brain was totally fried from the radiation from the machine). -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 16:55, 3 March 2008 (PST)
This isn't the same as the photo in Back to the Future... - I have to agree with this. Daniel explicity told Desmond that you cannot do anything to change the future. Therefore, everything that has happened in the timeline will have already had its interaction with the future. So, for example, if someone went back in time to cause a plane crash, and then it happened, it wouldn't be possible for the plane to not crash, because the timeline will always be interfered with by the future. Which makes me come to the conclusion that the whole timeline is fixed.. everything in it has happened, and will happen. So, for the theory above that Jack might want to get back to the island to change something else, is a fallacy on his part.. because his past is already set. I guess that made no sense, verbal diohorrea not connected to my brain. Mikay 08:50, 3 March 2008 (PST)

The Connection

Okay, so Georgie was the one making all the phone conversations with Jack and Co. But for the past 'few days' he's been expieriencing this 'sickness' (as we are dubbing it). My issue is, that he jumped very quickly from healthy George to dead George, right? Also, Eloise and Desmond both expierienced their 'sickness' in the matter of a day. Could we say that the 'sickness' is in no way connected with Desmonds previous abilities to jump between times and dimensions? ("Flashes Before Your Eyes") Does this mean that Desmonds ability to see the future has no connection to the Constant Sickness? What are your guys' opinions? Personally, I feel as though Lost wants to drop the 'future seeing' idea and replace it with the Constant Sickness. Only a thought, because both happening to the same character seems out of whack compared to seasons 1 - 3. --Hottyzchick 20:16, 28 February 2008 (PST)Bond

    • Minkowski may not be dead. His consciousness could be trapped in the future or past. He says "I can't get back" before passing out. Maybe on the freighter he will remain in a coma-like state.
  • It does seem like two different things. Maybe Desmond's experience in the Swan and subsequent flashes, saving Charlie, etc, maybe all that made him more susceptible to what you're calling the Constant Sickness. (I prefer to call it "unstuck in time," if only because of all the Vonnegut references in the episode.) From a dramatic point of view, it would get pretty boring to see Desmond have a flash and try to change the future every week, so it would make sense that the writers either kill him or take away his ability to see the future. I think either one is likely now. The phone call at the end was a defining moment in the vein of Eko refusing to be penitent or Shannon finally finding someone who believes in her. It could serve as the climax of the Penny-Desmond story arc. Imagine season 6 when Penny finally finds the island and sends a boat, only to find Desmond had died. Of course, maybe Desmond will be normal now and won't have to die. --bq 21:45, 28 February 2008 (PST)
    • I sure hope they don't kill off Desmond, his episodes are the cream of the crop further proven by this episode. I think he's 'normal' now, the difference from George being that it doesn't seem that George had any of the benefit of Daniel's advice of finding a constant. Eloise also couldn't benefit from the advice, being a rat and all. It would appear that Desmond regained his memory when he has his conversation with Penny at the end, since he addresses Sayid by name (We see every moment of Desmond's present experience, I may be wrong but at no point does Sayid try to explain who he is to Desmond). So basically, I hope Desmond doesn't die.
      • That would really stink after all the build up with Desmond and Penny, to not have them reunite. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:40, 29 February 2008 (PST)

I just have a feeling that the phone call we saw last night was the reunion, or all the reunion we're gonna get. Don't get me wrong, I think Desmond's a great character, but he has definitely crossed over some line in his and Penny's story, a fulfillment beyond which Shannon, Charlie, and Eko didn't survive. I don't want him to die, but it looks pretty likely to me. --bq 17:36, 29 February 2008 (PST)

The Brain-Aneurysm-Causing Time-Transported Consciousness Disease Thingy

Obviously my title would be a ridiculous name for what we just witnessed in this episode, however I want to seriously bring forward the issue of naming this phenomenon. People further down this page have said "the sickness" but we need to tread carefully and insure that we don't: a) get it mixed up with Danielle's thing, and: b) don't prematurely give people the idea that we think it's the SAME as Danielle's thing. I think it would be very interesting if they end up being one-and-the-same, but for now we don't know and should be clear as far as disambiguation. Suggested names: The Constant Sickness (taken from someone's quote below), TTC Sickness (Time-Transported Consciousness Sickness)... I dunno, what do you guys think?

  • Can I just say that I'm a fan of calling it The Brain-Aneurysm-Causing Time-Transported Consciousness Disease Thingy? TBACTTCDT for short. :P Jimbo the tubby 22:40, 28 February 2008 (PST)
  • I prefer calling it getting "unstuck in time." That's what Daniel calls it when he does it to the mouse. --bq 23:10, 28 February 2008 (PST)
  • I second "unstuck in time", it reminds me of the "War Without End" episodes of Babylon 5.Thelordnyax 11:34, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • How about "Vonnegutitis"? Danhm 01:34, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • How about "side effects"?--Nevermore 04:34, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Electromagnetism-Induced-Mind-Constrained-Time-Travel? --Fimbulfamb 15:16, 29 February 2008 (GMT)
  • How about 'Astatherochronosis' for a pseudo-scientific name.
  • What about Time Displacement Disorder? (TDD) --Emily76 16:46, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • How about "unstuck in time?"
  • ...and so it goes.
  • How about "Eli Stoned" ? Accipitradea 09:04, 2 March 2008 (PST)
    • Hahahahaha, I like that. PS That show is the worst thing I've ever wasted 10 minutes of my life on.

The use of the term "aneurysm" doesn't really make sense here. An aneurysm is an arterial dilation associated with a weakened vessel wall that is prone to burst or tear. All the neurological side effects occurring in the characters who get this sickness should be intrinsic to the neurons within the higher order, processing parts of their brains and would not directly effect the blood vessels. Neuron damage is distinct from blood vessel damage, and thus it doesn't really make sense that becoming unstuck in time would cause abnormal thinning of the walls of the blood vessels in the brain. One explanation is that Daniel was just incorrect in his presumptive diagnosis, as he is a physicist and not a biologist. Although presumably if he is confident he can do an autopsy on Eloise, he should have sufficient background to know what he would be looking for during it. Thus, this is a tough one to explain without raising the probability of an error on the writers' parts - perhaps a quick medical consultation would have helped. There are examples in the neurology and psychology literatures of people who enter disassociative states when facing extreme trauma that can not be processed intellectually or emotionally. This aberrant coping mechanism would not lead to death, but it would be effective and easy to portray on-screen.--Acm23 18:02, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Answers....

Does anyone else feel like this episode explained EVERYTHING?

--okay, not the monster or ben or anything. But, come on, you can figure just about everything from the info...!--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 20:24, 28 February 2008 (PST)

Not "everything", but it explained alot. It explained the Swan, the System Failure, time and the outside world, and Desmond. it expanded on Penny's love for Desmond. Oh, and it explained the "course correction of Fate" that Ms. Hawking talked about. dposse 20:30, 28 February 2008 (PST)

-- It confirmed people's theories about time differences, but the time difference is not a constant and affects people in different ways. We did not find out who Ben's man on the boat is, what is the real purpose of the Freighter, why Charles wanted the Black Rock Journal and his connection to Penny's search for Desmond.

After watching this episode, I actually thought to myself that I'd be content if that were the last episode of the series. But then I remembered all those crazy other Non-Desmond related things.

  • I think it also explains why is Locke able to predict rain... he also is "unstuck" in time... Do you agree??????????
    • No. Locke predicts the rain because he has a spiritual connection to the island. That is why he 'is responsible for [its] wellbeing'.--Bagpuss 01:53, 3 March 2008 (PST)
    • Locke can predict the rain due to his education and skills as a meteorologist. We have yet to see a flashback of his college days ;-)

Calendar

For some reason there is a trivia point and unanswered question regarding 4 unmarked days on the calendar. However, all the days are clearly marked... perhaps it's the light yellow marker that's throwing people off? --J-Hawk 21:21, 28 February 2008 (PST)

Indeed, see: http://www.docarzt.com/s4ep5_07.jpg

Agreed, they ARE all marked off.Thelordnyax 11:37, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Agreed, but I think there could be some meaning of black, red and yellow marks. By the way, the yellow days corresponds to days 28-31 at the Island which were during episodes 1x15 and 1x16. Though there were nothing special. --Zerg 17:40, 29 February 2008 (PST)
For further theories please use the calendar article.--Lostgeek 03:33, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Cultural References

The "turning the oscillator" up to 11 seems like a reference to Spinal Tap, does it not?

"Back to the Future" and "Star Trek: TNG All Good Things" should be removed. There are no specific references to either of these in this episode, other than that they're all about time travel. --Inkling 21:33, 28 February 2008 (PST)

Well, in "All Good Things," our hero is moving back and forth among three timelines, unstuck in time. He can only free himself when he identifies the constant in each timeline and makes contact with it, literally flying the Enterprise directly into some temporal anomaly. If it's not an episode reference, it should be. The two stories have a little more in common than just being about time travel. Also, Q says something I think Lost fans can really appreciate: ""Oh, you'd like me to connect the dots for you, lead you from A to B to C, so that your puny mind could comprehend. How boring." --bq 21:56, 28 February 2008 (PST)

Damon Lindelof mentions the Star Trek reference himself here. --Marlowe 22:01, 28 February 2008 (PST)
Great find. Not sure what the conventions are around here, but can that be cited in the article? --Inkling 22:22, 28 February 2008 (PST)

There should definitely be a reference to Zathras in Babylon 5... he goes on about being "unstock in time" all the time! Its like his catch-phrase.--Chesebrgr 06:13, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Anyone else get the Quantum Leap feel from this episode?

Hell Yeah! --erikire 21:45, 29 February 2008 (PST)

You mean, 'Oh Boy!'? Accipitradea 09:09, 2 March 2008 (PST)

The 'unstuck in time' thing is for sure a reference to Slaughterhouse 5. Go and read it, it's a short book and well worth it. Anything else like the Babylon 5 reference mentioned above relating to being 'unstuck in time' is highly likely to also be a Slaughterhouse 5 reference, and I think if we note all of those then we'll end up with a huge list of 'other works that reference that reference', so I think we should leave it at Slaughterhouse 5 and be done with it.Liquidcow 07:15, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Cultural references are out of control

The cultural references section is way out of hand in this article. I move that we cut about half the crap. Many of the references are never referenced in the episode, and their only connection is that they happen to be about time travel and boats.

Yes, I agree. There are lots of movies and books about time travel; we need more obvious links for something to count as a 'reference'. For example, I agree with The Million Dollar Hotel because Eloise is a rather random name and because the writers have already done these kinds of "shout outs" with the whole Shawn Doyle/Elizabeth Mitchell/Jack Shepard/Frequency convergence. (See 1st note in Trivia: General for Eggtown.)--Emily76 22:26, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • Someone has attempted to fix this by splitting them into actual "references" and "similar content." Isn't "similar content" really more in the realm of "theory?" As in, this is similar but might or might not have had an effect on this show? I also think "All Good Things" deserves an upgrade to confirmed reference. If Damon Lindelof says the show is an homage to that episode, as he does in the linked article, I think that counts as a direct reference.--Emily76 07:53, 2 March 2008 (PST)

Agreement

See my note about the removal of the Radiohead reference below. Chasing lamely 07:17, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Answered Questions

  • Why have the contents of the journal never been made public? How much does the public at large really care about the contents of some random journal? Odds are it was never made public because it never came up.
    • I have to disagree with this one, this seems to be your opinion/speculation. I still see a possibility that there are reasons for the contents of he journal to be kept secret. Considering we have no idea what is in it, we can't say that there is nothing fantastically interesting in it, and so we can't say for sure that there is nothing in there that has been deliberately kept from the public. However, I think 'what are the contents of the journal' is probably a sufficient catch-all question for now.Liquidcow 07:19, 3 March 2008 (PST)
  • Why did Widmore use a towel to turn the faucet handle? Germs. Easy, I know people who do this all the time.
  • What caused Desmond to time travel when he touched it? Not causal: we're not asking why whatever he was doing every other time he time travelled caused it.
  • Do flashes of light trigger time travel? Theory baiting. No evidence for this, either, as the time shifts happen without flashes of light as well.
    • Desmond does try to trigger it himself by flashing the doctor's light in his own eyes. It didn't have any effect when he did.--Lucky Day 11:08, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Why are they so opposed to phone contact between the ship and the island? Not clear that this is true. After all, they have no problem with Regina being in contact with the Island.
  • Why did Daniel ask if Desmond had been exposed to radioactivity or electromagnetic energy? Because that's what he thinks makes the effects different for different people, I'm pretty sure he said as much.
    • Yep, and Desmond was the one who pressed the button for 3 years and then turned the safety key. If its going to happen to anyone it would happen to Dez.--Lucky Day 11:08, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • What causes time travellers to die? Because they can no longer distinguish between times. This is explained in the episode by Daniel.
  • How many other people are on the freighter? Unimportant, lacking in context.
  • Does the crew of the freighter know specifically where they are? Theory baiting.
  • What did the doctor inject in Minkowski? Sedative, presumably.
  • How did Minkowski seem to hold onto his present/future memory of being on the freighter while Desmond had only his memory up to 1996 (in an amnestic fashion)? It affects different people differently, I'm pretty sure Daniel says this too.
    • Daniel may have been looking for his constant unsuccessfully up until this time.

Jimbo the tubby 22:49, 28 February 2008 (PST)

  • How Eloise could know how to pass through the labyrinth if it died after the experiment? There are 75 minutes we do not see. The presumption that "she died [directly] after the experiment" is a theory. There is no evidence to counter Faraday training her an hour after the experiment, and her dying sometime after that, which is what we must assume given what we are shown.
    • And even if Eloise did die shortly after Desmond blacked out again, Daniel may have trained her immediately after he carried Des to the chair. Stating that he won't teach her for another hour is just when Daniel had planned on training her not absolutely when he would (he can't see the future (yet?), just know what he plans on doing in the future)

Continuity Errors

I removed part of

  • The phone that Sayid connects to the battery is a standard Lineman's Handset (looks like a Harris TS22). It is little more than a rugged corded telephone and is incapable of placing calls without a land line or sophisticated external communications equipment that can provide such a line. Connecting such a handset to a battery would have merely lit up an indicator and produced a single click sound.
    • This was placed in Trivia. The second part should have been in production errors. I don't believe it was an error though because I remember thinking the same thing. Later in the show Sayid explained the Battery was only meant to power the handset and I believe he rigged it to some other part of the broken equipment. This is why it took him awhile to get it to work.--Lucky Day 11:08, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Image

Should this really be the image for the article? It seems one of Desmond would be more fitting.--HaloOfTheSun 00:00, 29 February 2008 (PST)

[This] one would be OK too --erikire 21:53, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Trek Reference

I took a crack at it. 's ok? --bq 00:01, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  • Trallallà, brotha. Andreapasotti 15:05, 29 February 2008 (PST)

The Constants

So, does everyone have a constant?

  • Kate = her toy airplane / black horse
  • Jack = His dad
  • Locke = His dad...oh wait, Ben had him kill his dad. Sawyer's was Cooper too?
  • Walt/Michael = Each other?...or alternatively maybe Vincent?
  • 815 Kids = Teddy Bear?
  • Charlie = his guitar
  • Hurley = The Numbers
  • Rose/Bernard = Each other?
  • Jin/Sun = Each other?
  • Ben = His dad (DEAD, but apparently Ben can still come and go without issue...)

Of course, what people have for a constant depends on where in time(s) they flash between Id suppose. At any rate...Help me expand this list!

Why would everyone have a constant? Why do we think any of these people is unstuck in time like Desmond (and possibly Daniel)?

So is Ben sabotaging people by making then sacrifice their constants!?!?! Thus forcing them to stay on the island? Maybe this is what the original inhabitants of the island did, sacrifice their constants to the island to prove their devotion to it. Ben is just trying to carry on the 'culty' society on the island.

Something tells me Claire's constant is Aaron, and her attempt on getting herself and Aaron off the island ends up with her not being able to beat the "unstuck in time" issue. She dies and Kate takes Aaron (maybe as a new constant?). Ill bet theres some issue with pregnancy because of bringing new constants. Or, alternatively, what would be the constant of someone who is born on the island? Theres no past to flash back and forth between!

  • A better constant for Ben would be that wood carving of Ann. However, keep in mind that there is no evidence that anyone other than Daniel and Desmond know about constants. Even if they did, not everyone would need one (like Sayid and Frank, for example). Danhm 09:23, 29 February 2008 (PST)
    • I think peoples' constants have to be something they had in their presence before they got to the island, Bens doll he got on the island. Maybe his glasses came with him on the island, but thats kind of pushing it. On the matter of Frank and Sayid...Frank had the helecopter as a constant, Sayid...no idea.
  • Per Daniel's comments, one doesn't need a constant to come & go from the Island unless you've been exposed to a large amount of radiation/electromagnetism. Most of the people on the island probably wouldn't be affected. Note nothing happened to Sayid.
    • I agree. Just because Desmond needs a constant to solve being unstuck in time doesn't necessarily mean that what he's gone through applies to everyone on the show. As far as radiation/electromagentism goes, the only characters we know for sure that have been exposed (and still alive) are Locke and Desmond from the Swan, and Daniel from his experiments at Oxford.
  • I disagree. Not everyone would need a constant, because if I understand correctly, the side effect is only present if someone is exposed to high levels of electromagnetism or radiation (like Desmond was with the failsafe, Locke was being ground zero in the hatch explosion, Daniel was with the years of working with his machine, and George evidently was from ???), so they would not need a constant because they (like Ben's obvious ability to safely travel back and forth) would not experience the side effects. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:22, 29 February 2008 (PST)
    • I agree. Just because something new is introduced doesn't automatically mean each and every character suddenly needs a "constant". Sayid and Lapidus seemed perfectly fine on the freighter, after all. And what the hell would Charlie need a constant for, unless someone magically manages to bring him back to life?--Nevermore 13:55, 29 February 2008 (PST)
      • Right, because Daniel says it happens to SOME people, and later explains why those SOME people experience side effects (EM and/or prolonged radiation exposure). -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 16:57, 3 March 2008 (PST)
  • The light Daniel shines on the mouse to induce this "unsticky time" looks purply and quite similar to the purple light that ejected from the hatch upon implosion. It looked as though it spread all over the island. I contend that everyone was exposed. Infact, i think this implosion ejection was what "infected" George and his dead buddy on the freighter. Although its prolonged exposure that seems to cause it, so weve been told, maybe a gigantic ammount in one shot could do it. I think Sayid was off the island (with Jin and Sun in a boat off the coast of the island) at the time of the implosion. Could explain why Sayid is not "infected", but then takes the explanation away from Georges "infection".

Desmond's search an "A-Mission"?

I'm curious to know if this episode might be considered an A-Mission. He seems to be after a fairly tangible goal (finding his constant), which he does actually achieve. The difference, of course, is that he is doing it along two separate timelines. --Litany42 06:55, 29 February 2008 (PST)

""A-Mission" is defined as a quest which departs from the main body of the survivors, and involves either rescue, assistance to another, or betterment of the survivor community as a whole." Desmond's mission is a personal quest, that pretty much only directly helps him (although his contact with Penny might refuel her determination to find him/the island therefore lead to potential rescue... but that's a fairly indirect and farfetched theory). So, no- I don't think it is per the definitions we're using. --MetallichickX 13:12, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Yes, it could be argued that Desmond in the future helped saved Desmond in the past. Don't get me wrong -- I can also see how the opposite can be argued, that he is helping himself, not someone else. Isn't funny how Desmond always seem to reside in that grey area? --Litany42 09:02, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • The A-Mission is Sayid and Desmond going to the freighter. Sayid is a member of the A-Team. They definitely depart from the main body for one reason: The betterment of the survivor community as a whole. Neither Sayid nor Desmond really believes that the freighties are what they say they are. Sayid told Locke that he would go and find out about them. Basically, it's a reconnaissance mission. They want to assess the threat to their fellow survivors. We've seen two episodes' worth of this mission: Sayid getting Charlotte back to get himself on the helicopter, with his flash-forward, and now Desmond's time sickness, with his flashback that wasn't really a flashback. The A-missions page has the Charlotte mission as one itself, but that was only the beginning. Sayid's intention all along was to get on the boat and find out what he could. --bq 17:48, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Who opened the door?

We see that one of the freighter thugs locks the door, but just when Desmond, Sayid, and Minkowski want to leave, the door is open. Who did this? My bet is that it is the same person who destroyed the communications room -- Ben's man on the boat. --Litany42 06:57, 29 February 2008 (PST)

I totally agree the Man On The Boat is the likeliest candidate for these actions. We've yet to see Regina, it would be an interesting twist if she is Ben's "man". --Spikezilla 07:47, 29 February 2008 (PST)
It would be even more interesting/weird if she was "a man".Thelordnyax 11
42, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Are the destruction of the radio equipment and letting the boys out of sickbay consistent actions? It appears that they could have been done by two different people. One person who wants to stop the freighter (and the Losties) from communicating with the outside world -- Ben's man -- and one person who is helping the Losties -- the "friend." I know there are ways to conclude that the two actions are consistent and could have been done by the same person, but that is not necessarily the case.--Chuck 13:17, 29 February 2008 (PST)

My initial thought was that it was future Minkowski, but then I though it was Ben's "man on the boat" but perhaps even more likely, is that it was Frank Lapidius. --LOSTinDC 14:57, 29 February 2008 (PST)
I think the one who opened the door (though not necessarily Ben's man) is Frank. I mean he DOES say to Sayid on the deck "You gotta trust me when I tell you this: I am trying to help you."
  • Regina... She'll be Mikhail with a wig.. Andreapasotti 15:07, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Regina is going to be Zoe Bell, from Deathproof. Can't wait to see her, hope she kicks some butt!!

The Grandfather Paradox

Well, it seems with this episode we are getting a lot closer to understanding what all this time travel business is about. But there are still some big questions. The one I'm curious about is the rat. Daniel builds the maze, sends the rat into time, and sends it through a maze she has never travelled. Daniel says he planned to show her the maze one hour from now. Soon after, Desmond blacks out for 75 minutes. At this time, we see Daniel madly writing on a chalk board. When Desmond wakes up, Daniel is still at the chalk board, but the rat is dead -- probably due to an aneurysm, according to Daniel, because the rat couldn't reconcile the time travel. Did Daniel ever teach the rat the maze? You could argue he had time to do it while Desmond was blacked out, but I find it unlikely that he tore himself away from the chalk board to teach the rat. If the rat did die before she learned the maze, this would raise the question of the Grandfather Paradox. --Litany42 07:25, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Daniel knew Eloise had died, which implies he had been giving her at least enough attention while Desmond was out to notice. Since this whole being unstuck in time thing is Daniel's whole study, I'm sure he's aware of the grandfather paradox, and put in the time he knew had to be spent for Eloise to learn the maze in the past... The more important problem is, the settings for the machine that present Daniel gives Desmond to tell 1996 Daniel seems to be the "time travel" solution. But if it only came to Daniel from himself in the future (presumably he wrote these settings down after the encounter with Desmond), the source of the settings is a paradox with no apparent source.

I guess that would be an ontological paradox.
I was thinking about this and what if the point in time where it became a paradox, Eloise died? So Daniel said he was going to teach her the maze an hour from now. So at that point where he failed to follow through (as he did before in the future, when she learned it), it created a logisitical paradox and that's what killed her? Her death provided a logical end to the paradox. Could it also be argued that the point at which you die is when your actions finally reach a point that negate your own actions or existance? --CrystalSkull 14:50, 29 February 2008 (PST)
So what was killing Desmond then? ;> It's possible did something that he didn't do in past before island, and generated more paradoxes that was killing him? Anyway this fit to "constant" as a cure. -Shadowriver 18:29, 29 February 2008 (PST)
This one's really old - and solved at least since Back to the Future. The answer is the many-worlds-theory. When you time travel (or your conciousness) you end up in one of many possible futures which all evolved from your current present. You travel there and when you return you end up in another stream of time where things go differently. So absolutely no paradoxy involved.
The producers stated in the official podcast that they aren't taking a many worlds approach to the show.
I think we DO still need to wonder if the grandfather paradox occured. I mean, for all we know, Daniel DID figure out the numbers on his own, and used this as a way to convince his 1996 self that he was in fact talking to someone sent by his 2004 self. I took it to be a way of proving things, not actually solving the problem for himself. With this possibility still out there, it stands to reason that we don't know whether the 1996 meeting of Desmond and Daniel "actually" took place (since neither remember it the 'first time around.') Likewise, we can't say that Penny remembers Desmond asking for her number in 1996 - THAT also may have never happened the 'first time around,' and 2004 Penny never referenced the meeting in their phone call. We merely know she was waiting/looking for him. Something we've known since their meeting at the stadium in 2001 (2.23/24 Live Together, Die Alone). So I think we still need to have "Does Penny Remember Desmond Asking for Her Number in 1996?" to the list of Unanswered Questions.--DesmondExMachina 16:58, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Did Daniel know the Settings beforehand? What does Daniel remember?

It seems obvious that Daniel is suffering from the effects that Daniel and Mintkowski by his high exposure to radiation, much like that nurse did with X-Rays and the couple that discovered Uranium (this should probably be mentioned somewhere, maybe under cultural reference). His lack of a shield for his head makes it more clear.

Related to the Grandfather Paradox I'm guessing that Daniel gave himself the numbers through Desmond. This is why he had to use his log book for that day. They wouldn't have been there otherwise. I'm guessing her didn't learn them himself, the equipment didn't work and Eloise hadn't time traveled until Dez gave Daniel the answer.

This is a variation of the Grandfather Paradox and we saw it when Scotty told Bones, "How do we know he didn't invent the stuff?" justifying giving the site operator the secret to transparent aluminum in ST:IV--Lucky Day 10:40, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Love as a constant

I find it interesting that Desmond's "constant" is Penelope. It reminded me of a Shakespeare sonnet:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
(Sonnet 116)

Interesting, with its mention of compasses and stars, and time... Not that I think this is an Easter Egg or has any direct relevance. But I think that now Desmond has found his constant, he is truly found. If the Losties are on the island to resolve their pasts, Desmond may be the first to succeed. --Litany42 07:37, 29 February 2008 (PST)

How strange, that sonnet popped into my head this morning...coincidence? --Amberjet11 08:09, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Don't mistake coincidence for fate ;) --Meerkat 03:48, 1 March 2008 (PST)
And this explains how Desmond is Daniel's constant.... oh wait. I hope it doesn't.

Synopsis

The Synopsis was originally written for this episode in chronological order as it appeared in the episode and not separated by the "real time" events and the "flashback" events. Someone is now trying to separate the two timelines which makes the story far more confusing. I understand that the separate timelines style is the usual format, however this episode is very different from most episodes. Here, each flashback is integral to the connected real-time events and each real-time event is important to the flashback that preceeded or succeeded it. Accordingly, I would recommend that we revert the synopsis back to the order the scenes occurred as aired. Thoughts? --Chuck 07:51, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Considering that Desmond always has lucid flashbacks/forwards, it makes more sense for the synopsis to be written as it happened in the episode. And on that note, why is there no mention of Desmond's conversation with Charles Widmore or the fact that Widmore was bidding on a journal taken from the Black Rock? --Amberjet11 08:11, 29 February 2008 (PST)
I concur. There is no way you can realistically write this episode's synopsis as being split into "Flashtime" and "Real-time" and make it coherent. The lack of the flashing sound indicates this is not your "normal" episode format, so the synopsis shouldn't hold to the prior conventions as closely as someone is currently making it. The missing parts of the synopsis should be expected since the episode is just over 13 hours old, and there is a real question about how to present it. But I think at least the effort should be in getting the overall events right, and then mark the article as need of formatting. Badger 08:22, 29 February 2008 (PST)
It might be indeed more appropriate to revert it to "chronological" order, although I strongly think we should point out each time when it is a flashtime or realtime. - TheAma1 08:46, 29 February 2008 (PST)

I think the bold labels of "real time" and "flash time" are bulky and unecessary. I think it'd be better to just have a smooth-flowing narrative that goes back and forth between the times, just include a sentence like "Desmond wakes up back in the past." or "When he jumps back to the future...". Jimbo the tubby 09:15, 29 February 2008 (PST)

How about putting all the flash-time events in italics?--Nevermore 14:01, 29 February 2008 (PST)

I think the synopsis looks better, but is there anyway to change the "contents" box so that it not 12 listings of "1996" "2004"?? --LOSTinDC 06:52, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Time issue with Eloise....

Im sorry I know that this is not really Lost related, but Eloise is quite obviously a RAT, not a mouse. A mouse would be smaller, and it is Rats that are most commonly used in science when it comes to running mazes as they are particularly good at it. Im sorry, but everyone refering to her as a mouse is really bugging me.user:Giz

Well, first of all, exuse my english. Here is the thing, if Eloise goes with her mind into the future, then, ok..she learns how to reach the end of the labyrinth... But because of that, when she come back to "present" (one of all the present... hehe, the one where the show is at this moment. Back in Faraday office)..So, when Eloise come back, she's able to finish the labyrinth, because of that, Faraday is too occuped to learn her how to finish the labyrinth as he planned to... Isn't there a paradox ? I mean, I know time travel is full of paradox, but is this a paradox or am I just missing a step ? To be brief, my problem is that when the mouse come back to present and finish the labyrinth, Faraday won't learn her.. So she shouldn't be able to finish it ? --FrenchFlo 07:57, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  • Good catch! In this case, time travel did alter the future and that is something that is not supposed to happen (according to Cuse/Lindelof).--Chuck 08:03, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Daniel also didn't seem to remember being visited by Desmond at Oxford meaning that the timeline can be altered as long as the desired effect is achieved. The universe doesn't need to course correct the fact that Daniel never bothered to teach Eloise because Eloise had already served her purpose. Wikistoriographer 08:34, 29 February 2008 (PST)
    • We already know that Daniel has memory issues (which could be connected to his being unstuck in time like Desmond).
      • Everything could be explained using separated timelines... But it seems they want to make us think all happens in the same space&time continuum (same reality). I mean, when going back to the past and doing something, you, in theorie, create a new timeline in which your action will do something. But the timeline you come still exists, but not for you, since you are in the new one you just created... Thinking like this, we could explain some things, but with Lost.. I'am LOST ! --FrenchFlo 08:48, 29 February 2008 (PST)
      • Could be, but not necessarily. There's no reason to suggest Faraday undertook the experiment himself, especially knowing the consequences. There are plenty of other possible reasons for his condition.Moo 09:50, 2 March 2008 (PST)
  • After the experiment, Desmond travels back into hiself on the freighter and remains there for something like 70 minutes. When he returns we see Faraday at his blackboard. At anytime during Desmond's blackout Faraday could have trained the rat. It seems he would be meticulous enough to make sure he does so. The rat was dead when Desmond returned, so as long as Faraday trained it before it died, there's no paradox. --macosx 10:25, 29 February 2008 (PST)
    • That's what I assumed - just because they didn't show him teaching the rat didn't mean he didn't go ahead and do it. --Minderbinder 11:47, 29 February 2008 (PST)
      • Well regardless if he had time to train her or not, just how would he have 'trained' her? There would be no way -or need- to learn her something that she clearly already remembered from the future. He could not have trained her in the true sense of the word, because she already knew. Paradoxical indeed.--Winkelmander 13:19, 29 February 2008 (PST)
      • This doesn't have to be a paradox if the rat has the kind of time-unstuckness that Desmond experiences in Flashes-before-your-eyes. In that case, Future-Desmond went back into the past with his memories intact, but we assume that when he went back to the future, Past-Desmond had no memory of any of that. So it's possible that the rat could have shifted and lost her future-memory, then Daniel trained her to run the maze.--Emily76 20:45, 1 March 2008 (PST)
      • Right, the Eloise in the future (the one taken over by the past Eloise that is blacked out before she initially runs the maze) WOULDN'T know the maze while taken over by the past consciousness, so that's the time when Daniel would train her, then when she returns to the past, she knows it. No paradox.
  • Question: So, Faraday's radiation "unstuck" Eloise in time, sending her to the future to learn the maze. But... wasn't Desmond "unstuck" into the past? I'm confused as to how the two are the same. ALSO, on this note of inconsistencies, if Faraday plans/was planning to use Desmond as his constant if something goes wrong, why didn't Des snap out of it the minute he talked to Faraday in both timelines - Faraday being a possible constant?
    • Because the constant is supposed to be someone or something you very strongly care about, and Desmond likely didn't care about Faraday enough for him to be a constant. Now why Faraday cares so much about Desmond that he could be a possible constant is unknown to me, and will probably never make any sense.--HaloOfTheSun 15:03, 29 February 2008 (PST)
    • Eloise's and Desmond's unstuckness are definitely not the same, but I have to call "dramatic license" here. It would be considerably less interesting to watch the rat just stand there because it "forgot" how to run the maze. Maybe anything that's the same in both times could be used as a constant; it just works better to "ground" you if its something you love because you have a lot of psychic energy around that. Desmond is badly unstuck so he needs a really powerful constant. --Emily76 20:45, 1 March 2008 (PST)
      • Desmond validates Faraday's life work. That certainly seems like reason enough for Faraday to care about Desmond a great deal.
        • Right. Des provided the key that made Daniel's experiements work (more or less); so yeah, it makes sense Dan would see Des as a constant. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 17:00, 3 March 2008 (PST)
  • Why wasn't Dan Eloise's constant? When he took her out of the cage her rubbed her against his face, indicating she was more of a pet than a 'lab rat' and the fact he named her. Rats build up close relationships with their owners and presumably Dan was present in her future to teach her the maze. Therefore he should have been her constant and she shouldn't have died. --LostCat 00:37, 3 March 2008 (PST)
    • For Eloise, the time shift is only an hour (supposedly), and in that hour almost everything is the same (the room, Daniel, Desmond)... which I think would be as potentially confusing to a rat as everything being different as far as not being able to distinguish which is which.
      • Actually, this was an issue I had with Eloise dying. If she only shifted an hour, what was different (except for the maze)? She wouldn't need a constant. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 17:00, 3 March 2008 (PST)
      • Daniel says she couldn't distinguish the future from the present... It makes sense to me that it's even harder to distinguish past from present if EVERYTHING is the same in both. Plus I think with Eloise it's more the physical aspect of her brain shutting on and off too, like if you flip on and off a high wattage lightbulb too frequently. Also with the time shift only being an hour (or less) it could be possible that she shifts forward to a point in the future in which she is also shifting in the future, which could be problematic as well. I doubt we'll see any of this clarified on the show though, so I'll stop thinking about it for now.

Sun Kwon in the episode

Can someone confirm... I think Sun was in the beach scenes that had Jack, Juliet, Charlotte and FarradayWikistoriographer 09:10, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Paradox and Multiple Timelines

The writes have confirmed in the Official Podcast Official Lost Podcast/February 28, 2008 that there will not be any paradoxical elements appearing in the show. They have further stated that there aren't multiple timelines. What Desmond did or experienced in the past does not change the future the show is set in (except for Desmond and Daniel). They are suggesting that no physical time travel takes place (conscience time travel). They also address the fact that when Penelope had met Desmond in the Season 2 finale, she had had no knowledge that Desmond had told her to wait for that phone call. The writers have also reassured flashbacks we see on the show have no changeable elements, as far as time travel is concerned.--Krazymelvin 09:27, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Well, maybe no intended paradoxical elements, anyway. As Flo points out above, the mouse dying before it can learn the maze "an hour later" is certainly a paradox on how it can run the maze from learning it by traveling to the future. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:07, 29 February 2008 (PST)
As I stated above, Desmond was away for about 75 minutes as Faraday states, so he could have trained the rat before it died. We don't know how long the rat was dead for. --macosx 10:27, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Right. Forgot about the amount of time he was 'out'. Thanks. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:03, 1 March 2008 (PST)

This all reminds me of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Every time they got in a jam, all they had to do was plan to do something in the future, like stealing Ted's dad's car keys and hiding them in the past.--bq 18:01, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Why Penny? Why not Daniel?

Daniel says his constant has to be something that is present at both times. Daniel is right in front of him in one time, and he's just an (easier) phone call away in the present time. In fact, Desmond already talked to Daniel before finding him in the past. Daniel said it just has to be someone in both times and that he cares about. I think if it were a matter of life or death Desmond could muster up some love. After all, Desmond is Daniel's constant (aw, how cute). --macosx 10:32, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Because in 2004, after the incident where he forgot everything, he doesn't KNOW Daniel. It doesn't anchor him because he's not sure who Daniel is, regardless of the fact he met him in 1996 and converses with him in 2004. --CaseLogic 11:06, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Desmond does become important to Daniel because Desmond spurs some of Daniel's research between 1996 and 2004 ultimately leading him to the island. Daniel is not important to Desmond as he is just the guy walking him through the steps at this point. Needing him and being important to him are different things. Wikistoriographer 13:54, 29 February 2008 (PST)
    • I agree, except that I think that Desmond did more than just spur his research; I got the impression that Desmond provided a very important piece of the research that Daniel had been trying to figure out for some time (based on Daniel's comment on how often a day he uses that machine, taken to mean various tries to hit the right setting). This crucial information would make Desmond something of a 'hero' to Daniel, making Daniel care enough about Desmond to make him his constant. As pointed out, I agree about it not working in the opposite manner. Even if Desmond finds he remembers what happened in 1996, Daniel would have been someone he had no vested interest in who becomes merely a stepping stone along the path back, while Penny has been and is the love of his life. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:01, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Purple Skies, purple lamps?

did anyone notice that the part of the device that Faraday used to beam the rat's brain, was keyed to appear nearly the same color of the sky after the hatch implosion? Could this be a significant find? --Frenkmelk 11:31, 29 February 2008 (PST)

In the Enhanced episode this is noted, so I do believe there is a significance. But to what extent I do not know.--MetallichickX 21:44, 7 March 2008 (PST)

Timeline

"According to the calendar on the wall, as well as Desmond, the real-time events of this episode take place on Day 94 (Christmas Eve) when Sayid, Desmond and Frank left the island. This means that while it is Day 94 on the Freighter, it is actually Day 96 on the Island."

from the enhanced through the looking glass

" the survivors have been on the island / for 91 days"

whilst lostpedia's timeline suggests that day 91 was the brig and the man behind the curtain, i'd be inclined to follow the "official" day count, the whole, one day off island, another day on island, i think there's just been a bad count somewhere along the way...Ehsteve23 12:11, 29 February 2008 (PST)

No, it's pretty definitely set. See the timeline pages for the specifics of how the day is calculated. I'm pretty sure the extended episodes are wrong, and were written by someone other than the writer's who are just basing their calculations by subtracting from the date given in The Constant.. Jimbo the tubby

The problem we have is that in order to make Lostpedia's timeline match what your talking about, we would have to erase a couple days of events on the Island and essentially say that things seen in the show didn't happen. Day 88 is fixed in the timeline by comments made in the show. To "fix" Lostpedia's timeline, you (or anyone else) just has to say how to account for everything from the end of DOC to TTLG happening in three days. Dharmatel4 13:34, 29 February 2008 (PST)

"This means that while it is Day 94 on the Freighter, it is actually Day 96 on the Island." What evidence is there of this? If anything, given the telephone conversation, there is evidence to the contrary.

There is evidence of that because we can start timing from DOC and progressively keep track of the days passing such that you end up at day 96. See the timeline discussion page for details. Jimbo the tubby 18:26, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  • What if that calendar on the sick bay wall is falsified? Or just wasn't kept up after Christmas? I just feel like with the whole Kate having a child thing, the world has gotta be moving much faster - which would also explain how they heal so fast on the island.
Not likely, keep in mind that Penelope expects Desmond to call her on Christmas Eve, and acknowledges that he actually did it. Jimbo the tubby 21:40, 29 February 2008 (PST)

This is interesting: if a day on the island really is 30 minutes behind, then after 96 days (the time we believe it to be on the island) the island would be exactly 2 days ahead of the rest of the world. In other words, Day 96 on the island is Day 94 in the real world (as seems to be indicated by the calendar). This would explain why, as Sayid noted, they left the island at dusk, and landed on the freighter during mid-day -- the days are out of synch. Although it is possible, I don't think that the one time we see a calendar in this show -- with days x'd off, no less -- we can assume anything other than the producers are trying to tell us something, and that this day in the "real" world really is Christmas Eve, but Boxing Day on the island. (Actually, come to think of it, since the timeline begins the day the plane crashed, and it is highly unlikely the days were in synch, it probably is not even Boxing Day on the island. This also raises other questions, like how Ben marks his birthday, in island time or "real world" time.) --Litany42 08:47, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Just for the record, you guys are confused. The island wasn't "30 minutes behind", the rocket had travelled for an extra 30 minutes. Time on and off the Island is aligned (hence the PHONE CALLS).

Via Domus references (might be a spoiler)

I'd say this is still a spoiler, so I suggest to delete that?!

  • Just finished it and found out it's wrong any, Juliet says 325 not 305.

So I'm gonna change this sentence: 305 is also the heading Juliet tells your character to use in the videogame Lost: Via Domus in order to get off the island.

    • Another vote for removing this as it is a spoiler. It'd be nice if those of us who haven't played the game were allowed to discover everything ourselves.

Deleted!

Question about map?

"Is the "map" in Faraday's journal related to the map on the back of the blast door map?" Does anybody have a screenshot of this "map"? I didn't see it when I watched the episode. Jimbo the tubby 12:51, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  • Just went back and watched this scene on my DVR. It was a spacetime diagram, definitely not related to the blast door map in any way. --Tpir 13:08, 29 February 2008 (PST)

The faucet.

People seem to be very intent on the idea that Widmore is causing Desmond's time travel by making Desmond touch the sink, which causes time travel... But really, come on. Firstly, if the sink is causing the time travel, then why does he travel at other points when the sink isn't involved. Turning on the sink with the towel is a hygiene thing. An arrogant prig like Widmore wouldn't want to dirty himself like that. Also, the reason he wouldn't turn it off is just a little character moment to show that he thinks of himself as so superior to Desmond that he doesn't feel the need to clean up after himself, knowing that Desmond will do it. These are just character moments, there's no way that the sink faucet is causing the time travel, and no way that Widmore is behind it. I'm going to delete that question, if you have a problem with this, please discuss it here until we can come to a consensus. Jimbo the tubby 13:48, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  • Ever since I read the entry over at TV Tropes, I keep thinking of the term Epileptic Trees whenever I read this kind of off-the-wall fan theories.--Nevermore 14:09, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Please note my comments on discussion page in the sections on Widmore and time travel. I will specifically point out again here the first time travel event which is edited to show Desmond closing his hand on the metal rail of his helicopter chair while simultaneously grasping the rails of his cot in the army. So that makes two times in this episode where Desmond closed his hand around a metal object and travelled. I've pointed out that flashes of light, radioactivity and electromagnetism have been shown to induce a time travel episode, so we know there is more than one way to trigger these events. Also, there is nothing in this episode or any appearance of Widmore thus far to suggest he is a germaphobe. Jimbo, I politely posted my opinion in private on your user talk page and asserted the validity of this question when you removed it from the main article the first time and I welcomed your edit to the question to keep it from being leading. I don't believe theories require a consensus. I've given evidence to support its possibility. I certainly respect your right not to buy in to it and Nevermore's right to call it off-the-wall. I think it is a legitimate theory to consider--MixMasterMike 14:54, 29 February 2008 (PST).
  • You did post on my personal talk page, but I figured it'd be best to bring up here where everyone could discuss it. And certainly theories don't require a consensus, but the theory that the faucet causes time travel is a theory. That's not what the unanswered questions section is for. And it's not just a matter of germs, it's a matter of him being arrogant and not wanting to lessen himself. But I digress, you've admitted that it's a theory, and as such it belongs on the theories page and not the unanswered questions section. Jimbo the tubby 18:22, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Seems to me it really is an unanswered question worthy of inclusion in the main article. Why did Widmore use a cloth to turn on the faucet? Because he is arrogant? Because he is a germaphobe? To avoid time travel? We don't know the answer. The faucet may mean nothing. Contact with metal may have significance.
  • Contact with soap might prevent it. The point is that this is wild speculation with no evidence at all, beyond Widmore touching a tap. He used a urinal instead of a cubicle, I think it has something to do with time travel.--Chocky 23:13, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • The faucet is simply a story-telling device to show how long Desmond blacked out for. We see all the water all over the floor, so we know he's been out for quite a while. --Litany42 18:16, 29 February 2008 (PST)
The same is true for the metal gripping. A common screenwriting technique when using flashbacks is to have the character be doing the same thing in both time lines. LOST doesn't need this because it has established flashbacks with a sound effect, etc. But without the SFX, they revert to an older technique that has been used several times. For another example of this, watch the West Wing episode In the Shadow of Two Gunmen Willo 21:39, 29 February 2008 (PST)
I agree, all the match cuts/matching action when Desmond time shifts are there to make it clear to us what is happening, especially since we have over 70 episodes of established storytelling technique to overcome. Several of Desmond's time shifts don't even occur while he's doing something, but rather saying something that crosses over both timelines.
  • People using the toilet leave germs on the sink knobs (which is why toilets started including automatic faucet control) because they touch them before they wash their hands. Some people, after washing their hands, use the towel to turn off the knob (and use the door handle, because many people don't wash up) before disposing of it. Widmore went one step further by turning it on in the same manner. I don't think it's germaphobe; what if you are going to go eat after you go to the toilet? Do you really want someone else's bodily fluids on your hands? It's a pretty common practice that I think is being over-analyzed. Not turning off the water, IMO also, was an arrogance thing, nothing more. I question more why the sink was overflowing at that water pressure setting if it the drain was clear, but again, that's not related to clue. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 02:52, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • Agreed 100%. I'll add this though -- leaving the water on wasn't just an arrogance thing, it was also a show of power on the part of Widemore. He does this deliberately knowing that Desmond will turn it off, symbolically making sure Desmond knows that he is beneath him. --Litany42 14:22, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • If you back up a bit from "faucets cause time travel and Widmore must know this" I like MixMasterMike's observation that when the shifts occur there are common elements in the shifting scenes, such as light flashes, metal, water, etc.. Would anyone be interested in a compromise by asking a question like: Are Desmond's time shifts triggered by something or are they random? --Emily76 21:26, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Tovar or Tovard Hanso

[[2]] I want this discussion active, but I dont know if its better on this page or on the characters page. Click the reference at the beginning of this line to go to where I put the discussion. Is it Tovar or Tovard?Wikistoriographer 14:00, 29 February 2008 (PST)

It's TovardProjectHate 14:12, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Is that really a Blooper?

  • It is suggested that the left hand drive vehicles would be out of place on a British military camp - this is not true. Whilst civilian vehicles are right hand drive in the UK, most military vehicles are left hand drive, presumably as very few wars for the British army are fought on British soil.

" When Desmond leaves Penny's house he is shown walking away while he is calling penny on the boat at the same time. For continuity, he should have collapsed on the street instead. " --- it was my reading of the episode that as "the constant" had been established, Desmond was no longer spliced in between two timelines, meaning that he wouldn't collapse. Does noone else agree? I would agree that desmond remembers everything and the constant has been reached, He knew sayids name..

  • I agree with him no longer split in the timeline, but I'm not sure either way whether he has his memory back or not. Jimbo the tubby 14:40, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • I agree with this. I actually came to the Discussion page to see of this was mentioned. After talking to Penny, he is settled back in 2004. I think this "continuity error" should be removed. Goldfoot 17:54, 29 February 2008 (EST)

I've got another one that I think is kind of a bogus blooper - the one about rain not causing your fingertip skin to shrivel up. Perhaps the person who wrote that one never had a job where he/she spent the better part of the day out in the rain (like, say, perhaps, a soldier?). It happens from rain, not just tap water. I suggest removal of that blooper/continuity "error". Does anyone else concur? Jonesgp1996 18:51, 29 February 2008 (PST)jonesgp1996

  • I think at this point the story is telling us that Desmond has back to being "stuck" in time and what you see of him leaving Penny's house at the end is really a flashback now rather than time travel. Desmond on the helicopter is remembering this moment leaving Penny's house.
  • No, it's not a blooper, and I agree that he was back in his own time, so no collapse. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 02:53, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • I rewatched the scene, and Desmond hadn't made a connection with Penny yet when they show him walking on the street. When he does establish a connection, they show him again, smiling... I agree with you guys that the scene could be considered a flashback, but only after he established the connection with his constant (penny). Before that connection he should have collapsed on the street! Jens 07:10, 1 March 2008 (PST)
    • Ah, watched that bit again too and I see where you're going with this. Des is standing at the door after leaving the apartment, yelling back to Penny that he's not crazy, etc., then he is back in the present with the phone number. Hmmm, maybe because he's leaning his head against the door, we don't see his "collapse" while he's dialing the phone, then the next 1996 bit of him walking away from the apartment is simply a memory. Notice that Penny is now upstairs in the window, shutting the curtain. Is this because time passed with Des collapsed? Or because he was calling for her that long and she went straight upstairs. He's only a few steps from the front door, so she would have had to run to the second floor if he walked away right as she did on the other side of the door. Or we to understand the events to be "concurrent" with Des now having made contact with Penny in both timeframes? Anyway, I think it's too iffy to call a blooper. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:16, 1 March 2008 (PST)
      • Well, I didn't say it was a blooper error, I see it more as a continuity error. In the episode you always see collapse or wake up in 1996 or 2004 when there is a switch between times on the screen. Only at that moment they don't show anything? To be exact, he should have collapsed when he said "You have to trust me" to Penny in front of her door (but it's ok that they didn't show it, as they previously didn't show all collapses and waking up either). He then rang Penny in 2004 and while he was doing that you see the 1996 Desmond walking over the street while he should still be unconsious. I guess it's just weird cutting by the filmmakers... But hey, I agree, it's just too iffy too make a big fuss about. I'm just trying to make a point ;) Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts! Jens 10:55, 1 March 2008 (PST)
        • No, I realise you didn't say it was a blooper; I was answering the question asked in this section's header. It was a good catch regardless. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 01:00, 2 March 2008 (PST)
  • Ah-ha! I rewatched this tonight with husband who hadn't seen it yet (and it's so much fun trying to explain this show to a casual viewer!), and caught something I missed previously, or at least didn't connect to this topic. A collapse is not necessarily a side effect of the... well, side effect (LOL). In 1996 timeframe, Desmond is shown picking up coins and then he 'leaps' to the future. When he comes back to 1996, he is simply bent over with the coins in his hand (which really is a blooper because all the coins were knocked out of his hand and he leaped before he picked them up, but I digress). He didn't collapse at all that time. I think that the catatonic phase for this particular instance would have been him leaning against the door for a time until the constant came through for him. The blip to the past when he is walking happens as he is talking to Penny in 2004, and note that we know that it's working as he tells her that he's been on an island, etc. The flash to 1996 is to show his 1996 persona is back where it belongs. I tend to think those instances are happening at the same time--they just don't show them split screen--because he's still on the phone when they flash back to 2004. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 04:47, 3 March 2008 (PST)
    • Right, also when he leaves his first shift to 96, he's doing crunches, but when he shifts back, he's standing up while everyone else is still doing crunches. It'd be impossible to do that if the shifts caused him to collapse. It seems like as the shifts get worse (or harder to get back from) that the collapsing starts to happen, but when he finally hears the phone ring (indicating that it wasn't a disconnected phone number unlike the last time he tried calling) and then speaks to Penny, it gets better and so he doesn't collapse like the last couple times.
      • Which makes sense in a weird way, if you think about it. If someone with that condition were headed toward a brain aneurysm, the side effects would be exponentially worse with each new damaging event (e.g., the increasingly bad nose bleeds). -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 18:16, 5 March 2008 (PST)
  • Also, its been said that this was the homage to the series finale of Star Trek The Next Generation. At the end of that episode, once the constant had been determined and neutralized, Picard no longer remembered the three timelines that he was jumping between as things were back to normalWikistoriographer 08:19, 4 March 2008 (PST).

The point of view of Desmond

Once Desmond goes unconcious and we go into 1996, we are following the 1996 conciousness of Desmond until the constant is established. This was confirmed on the most recent podcast. So hes travelling forward, rather than back. The wording of the article is that Desmond in 2004 has flashes, but this isn't the case. I think we should reword it -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  19:59, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Quick note. This link is the latest podcast... and listen from about 3 minutes 10 seconds for just about 1 minute, theres no potential spoilers in this 1 minute clip -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  20:13, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Right. So that means it's following all the other formats for this season. Should the article be changed to match the other flashforward sections, then? -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 02:54, 1 March 2008 (PST)
No, they don't really go into detail in the podcast, they only say it was complicated to explain to the writing team or something. the way I see it, Desmond thought everything that he remembered after 1996 was a dream, and so he forgot all about it (just like we all do after we wake up), and from that moment on we saw the same desmond as we always have, only diffrence is he didn't remember anything and thought the "reality" is back at 1996. there is only one conciousness, that came from 2004 to 1996 and was sure it was all a dream. then it came back to 2004 and was sure it somehow got back into it's dream world. --CharlieReborn 18:43, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Auction

Was there anybody at the auction besides Charles Widmore whom we were supposed to recognize? Jburnson 14:59, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  • Was Mrs Hawkins sitting across the aisle from Charles Widmore ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Achy (talkcontribs) 2008-03-11T04:59:45.
  • I think that the bidder 887 looks like Alvar Hanso.
    4x05 blackrock auction 887

    Bidder #887

    Zerg 16:22, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Why would the Hanso family (or foundation) be auctioning the Blackrock journal? --PappyBlueRibs 17:58, 29 February 2008 (PST)
  • Alvar Hanso could be Tovard Hanso's namesake. Nevertheless Alvar Hanso had already known about the Island at least in 70ies, so in 1996 he might want to reclaim the ledger to prevent anybody from learning about the Island. --Zerg 03:34, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • The bidder really looks a lot like him.. compare this pic to the Hanso profile pic; same eyes and eyebrows, same lines between eyebrows and nose, same lips.--Winkelmander 09:23, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • Yeah - its Hanso.
    AlvarHansoProfile

    Alvar Hanso

    Zerg is correct - Hanso was tied to Dharma and would have to be accountable for the 'Purge' that happened. I'm mean, how do you explain getting wiped off by Hostiles?--Devinma 19:16, 1 March 2008 (PST) - oh yeah....and his paddle #887 : 8 + 8 + 7 = 23
  • HUH? the guy is on the phone with his employer, that guy is just there so that we won't see who else is interested in the diary! and don't you think the actor that plays Hanso would be credited if it was him?! and why would hanso even try to buy something that he already has access to just before that bidding began (it is said it was owned by the hanso family) --CharlieReborn 07:23, 2 March 2008 (PST)
  • Especially, that debunks some recent rumors/spoilers about cooperation of Windmore Industries and Hanso Foundation. So if they did cooperate then why Mr. Widmore would buy this book? In addition, why the actor who played Alvar Hanso in the Swan orientation film (2x03 "Orientation") was not credited, but François Chau (Dr. Marvin Candle) was?
The faces are similar, but, correct if I'm wrong here - the folks who work the phone bids in auctions work for the auction house. The phone bidder here is a storytelling device to hide the identity of the bidder. Moo 11:23, 2 March 2008 (PST)
Exactly. Being on the phone means the man was a proxy (auction house or otherwise) for the real bidder. So the man with the sign's identity would be unimportant. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 17:04, 3 March 2008 (PST)
The only thing similar bwetween them is their facial hair. BeŻet 14:57, 5 March 2008 (PST)
  • Was that Sayid's ELSA on the stage left side of the bidders? If not, still keep an eye out for her there.
    • Naww...I re-watched, and re-watched...I couldn't find her. --Devinma 19:16, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Where's Walt?

There's been a lot of talk about Walt, specifically about him being taller when he gets Locke up out of the Dharma grave. With all this time travel stuff, people think he left the island and aged quickly or whatever, but I think it's important to point out the possibility that we haven't seen Walt since he and Michael left the Island. We saw him in Three Minutes, and we got a brief glimpse of him in the boat as he and Michael left the island in Live Together, Die Alone. I think that any other time we've seen him on the Island after his abduction, it wasn't really Walt. Whatever it is that appears to Ben as his mother, or Jack as his Father, Kate as the Horse, Eko as Yemi, I think it's the spirit of the island, but that's obviously debatable. The point is that we can't really talk about Walt as if we know that he has aged significantly more than he should have in 94 or 96 days, because we haven't seen him.

But when we do see him, it will be the same actor. Who will of course, be aged 3 years since series 1, and therefore be significantly taller. The produces have said that this will be explained in-story, and it was actually planned for when the part of Walt was cast.--Chesebrgr 08:25, 4 March 2008 (PST)

At the end of season two, the female other asks Michael "Did Walt ever appear some place he wann't supposed to be?" In The Constant The phrase "where are you supposed to be" is used often. Desmond says "I'm not supposed to be here" Faraday asks "where are you supposed to be." While normal characters can only travel through time in their conscience, Walt can travel through time physically, or can exist in many times at once. When Locke is in the pit with a bullet hole, Walt from the future visits him and tells him to get out of the hole becase "he has work to do" which walt knows, because he knows how everything is going to play out.

Freighties vs. The Monster

Does anyone else really want to see the Monster going after Charlotte or Miles or Daniel? In the pilot episode, the monster came to the beach on the first night, as if to check out the new arrivals. Shouldn't the monster be interested in these new arrivals? I think Charlotte may even have some idea about what it is. --bq 22:59, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Cultural References (Radiohead)

I removed the reference to Radiohead being 'From Oxford, England' as it's incorrect and misleading. The band are actually from Abingdon, England. While Abingdon is near Oxford, it's not actually IN Oxford and therefore irrelevent. Chasing lamely 07:15, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Technically they may not be 'from Oxford', but they are known and commonly referred to as an 'Oxford band'.--Bagpuss 02:01, 3 March 2008 (PST)

I also removed a reference to the line 'I'm not here, this isn't happening' from their song 'How To Disappear Completely'. I sincerely doubt this is a reference to a Radiohead song for several reasons: there's no reason to reference Radiohead in the context, it's not distinct enough a phrase to be attributed solely to Radiohead, and Radiohead songs tend to incorporate common phrases into their lyrics anyway which is clearly the case with that one.Liquidcow 07:28, 3 March 2008 (PST)

I would say that the context is that parts of the episode are set in Oxford and Radiohead are known as an Oxford band. This is the kind of thing that the writers on Lost do. I'm not saying that it's an earth-shattering reference, but it's interesting and it's more likely planned than not.--Bagpuss 13:25, 3 March 2008 (PST)

But there's no reference to Radiohead. There is obviously a reference to Oxford, but English characters in American shows always attend either Oxford or Cambridge, usually the former, because it's the only British university most Americans have heard of.Liquidcow 06:24, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Agreed. And they still think it's in London. Or the Olsen Twins do at least. Their movie Winning London saw them visit Oxford University which, apparently, is in Westminster now. It was all intact on Saturday though. Didn't see a single college missing...Chasing lamely 14:28, 11 March 2008 (PDT)

Recommending new day count due to confirmed timeline differences

As I mentioned in the Timeline section above [3],it seems that island time is about 30 minutes faster than "real world" time. This is confirmed by the fact that it is now Day 96 on the island, but Day 94 in the real world. I propose that in the main article where it lists "Days", we change this to "Days - Island Time". Also, I noticed that the Eggtown episode is listed as Days 95-96 and The Constant as Day 94. The Constant should be changed to Day 96. --Litany42 08:52, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Um.. 30 minutes would not explain a 2 day difference lol. We know that on the freighter it's day 94, but we don't know for sure that it's day 96 on the island. In fact, if the enhanced episode data (Eggtown is said to be day 93) is to be believed, the scriptwriters intend for it to be the same general date on the island. I think it's more likely that our day count is incorrect than that there is that much of a date disparity between the freighter and the island. --Jackdavinci 17:08, 1 March 2008 (PST)
Actually, 30 minutes lost per day for 96 days is *exactly* two days (96*0.5 hours = 48 hours lost, or two days). I don't know about the count, but Dharmatel has always been insistent that the day count is correct based on D.O.C. as one of the reference points. --Litany42 17:55, 1 March 2008 (PST)
Well, then it must be wrong because we know Sayid said they took off at dusk and landed in the middle of the day. which means the diffrence is not exactly 2 days. --CharlieReborn 18:29, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • That's easy to answer as well. The time of day only aligns once every 48 days (i.e. 6pm on the island coincides with 6pm in the real world every 48 days) so the chances that the plane crash happened at that moment are about 2%. It is most likely that the plane crashed when the two timelines were out of synch. Therefore it is not a surprise that after exactly 96 days island time the two timelines are out of synch again. --Litany42 21:46, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • Everything is easy to answer with a theory, mate. but yours has no supporting facts. --CharlieReborn 07:29, 2 March 2008 (PST)
  • Yes, it is a theory. And yes, there are supporting facts:
(A) Daniel's experiment showed a 30 minute difference between the freighter clock and the island clock.
(B) It seems from this episode that it is Day 94 in "real time" and Day 96 in island time.
(C) Daniel states specifically to Jack and Juliet that their perception of time is skewed.
(D) The producers have stated that time works differently on the island.
Based on these facts, it is simple math to figure out that a 30 minute loss every day for 96 days means that the island is exactly 48 hours faster during that time period, or two days. Extrapolate this, and we also have to think that when the plane crashed on September 22, it wasn't really September 22 on the island (it could have been, but that would be an unlikely coincidence). Since the island is so close to the equator, you wouldn't have the normal seasonal changes to indicate time of year, so we can't tell what actual date it is on the island. This is a theory, and there are facts, and the theory takes these facts into account. I'd like to see proof too, but we'll have to wait and see. --Litany42 11:16, 2 March 2008 (PST)

When Jack was talking to Frank Lapidus about the Red Sox, he said it had been 100 days since he'd seen a game... I took this to mean that they had been on the island for 100 days, as it's unlikely that Jack is measuring his time on the island by time between baseball games. More likely that he meant he hadn't had the chance to see a game in 100 days.

I took it to mean "days on the island + days since he saw a game before he got on the plane". Also, it seemed like an offhand comment, 100 could have been an estimate. I don't think it means they been on the island 100 days though- that doesn't coincide with any timeline.--MetallichickX 13:10, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Black holes

I noticed that in Daniel's blackboard and notebook there were several references to special relativity, general relativity, quantum mechanics, etc. But I think the most important concept that appear several times is Kerr metric. It's mentioned in the blackboard [4] and it also appears in Daniel's notebook [5] (the equation above the diagram, in the page next to the red comment about Desmond). Kerr metric is the exact solution to Einstein's equations of General Relativity, that describes a spinning black hole! There's a lot to say about it, and I wrote a quite lengthy post in Lostpedia Forums (you can find it here: [6]) What do you think? Maybe the black hole topic deserves a Lostpedia section on its own? --Helvio 10:46, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Answered Question

  • If Daniel says that your constant must be something you care about very much, and Desmond is his constant, why does he care about Desmond so deeply? because he is a man from the furture! something that Daniel was trying to do at least "20 times a day" --CharlieReborn 18:47, 1 March 2008 (PST)
    • I think it's a valid question. How is Daniel going to psych himself into caring so much about Desmond? Faraday said the constant had to be something one cared deeply about. It could be argued that it would have to be as deep as Desmond's feelings for Penelope. How is Daniel going to pull that off? We don't have any rules for the constant other than that, but Desmond couldn't just find a concept (like time travel for Daniel) he cared about that existed in both times, but concepts are constant as a rule. It couldn't be a feeling - he had to make the connection - he felt the same way about Penny in either era. Looking at in the perspective of the previous lovey dovey scenes, unless Daniel made some deep connection with 1996 Desmond, it seems almost goofy that he would choose Desmond as his constant.-Moo 11:32, 2 March 2008 (PST)
      • Again, It's a man from the future! the peak of his dreams! he would care a lot.
        • This is covered above, but note that to Daniel (like many scientists), it appears that the most important thing in his life is his research. He goes so far as to have a special, secret room (NB Daniel quickly looks behind and shuts the door after Desmond when they enter the room, implying secrecy) where he says he does the things that Oxford frowns upon. When someone comes into the picture and helps him with that (NB Daniel immediately jumps to the wrong conclusion that present-Daniel sent Desmond back to pasts-Daniel with the sole purpose of furthering his research), and gives him the key to solving the "riddle" he's been working on (to the point of irradiating himself "20 times a day"), that person just became the most important person in that scientist's life. Daniel at Oxford seems to be a bit eclectic even before the memory problems, and he jumps to the conclusion that Desmond is a bad practical joke which implies he's been the butt of them before; this leads me to understand that he's a bit of a loner, most likely because of isolating himself with his research. With no wife or kids, Desmond, Daniel's research saviour, would be the most likely candidate. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 17:17, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Penny Calling the Boat!?

Minkowski recalled that Penny was calling the boat. How would Penny know who and where this freighter in the Pacific is? --Devinma 19:02, 1 March 2008 (PST)

she doesnt know where it is, or she would have just flew there instead of call. and i'm guessing she knows about it cuz she has a lot of money and power. --CharlieReborn 19:40, 1 March 2008 (PST)
This is confusing to me too, but I think we should assume that Penny has known the general location of the island since the Season 2 finale. Perhaps she has been periodically sending transmissions to the coordinates she got, trying to contact anyone that might know something about Desmond and/or the island. This is why Ben began blocking communications to the island. Talking to Charlie would have encouraged her so she is bombarding the whole area with frequent radio/video signals.--Emily76 21:47, 1 March 2008 (PST)
  • It seems likely to me that Penny's father may be the employer of the Freighties, and that Penny has been researching, snooping, really, around her father's affairs.
  • I was pretty disturbed to hear she's been calling the boat. Only a few days ago, she told Charlie "what boat?" Not, "I didn't send a boat, you don't mean my daddy's freighter do you?" She said "what boat?" I'm thinking her team found the island with the explosion but she hadn't put together a team yet-- and her father had. I think she might know the exact number of the boat, but I like Emily's theory that she's been trying to contact *anything* in the general area.AmberA 06:59, 3 March 2008 (PST)
    • Yeah, I think she's just been bombarding the area around coordinates; the likelihood that she was using a specific frequency that matches both the freighter's channel AND the Looking Glass' channel seems low. Also, Minkowski may not have answered her calls until AFTER she talked to Charlie. He isn't out of commission the next day when Regina answers, at the latest.
    • This is getting into theory territory, but assuming her father is behind the boat mission, she's probably just calling all the contact numbers she has for him, unaware that one of those numbers is a boat. Or even simpler, she's not calling a phone number, she's trying to contact various frequencies in the area around the island, and the boat just happens to be there. --Minderbinder 12:30, 3 March 2008 (PST)
  • You're all forgeting she told Charlie "how did you get this freq.?" so she's not sending radio/videos there, or she wouldnt have asked that
    • But that was an "incoming transmission". weird --Meerkat 09:23, 5 March 2008 (PST)


Right. Penny wouldn't be calling the boat in the sense that she's picking up the phone and dialing a specific phone number to the boat and only the boat. She's on a general frequency for the area of the island (where the freighter still is) and, yes, that would be why communications would be cut off by Ben to the island (note that's after the EM pulse identified the general area to Penny's men in the listening station), and why the communication was probably destroyed on the boat by Ben's man on the boat--to prevent Penny contacting the island through the freighter, and mounting a rescue of the Losties, et. al. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 17:09, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Ratings

Hey all,

Congratulations to episode 5 for receiving critical acclaim and good ratings from fans. See the chart below, it is higher than any episode in the history of the LOST series. This is good news. However, the television ratings has gotten me quite a bit worried. See the charts with the green lines and bars below. It is becoming low, probably because of the lame episode, Eggtown. What do you guys think? --     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email   11:46, 2 March 2008 (PST)

Ratings1

Click to enlarge

Ratings2
Rating3

I think that as the show goes on, it gets better for us, the fans, but it gets harder for newbs to get into it. It will be a challenge during the last season for TPTB to do stuff that will satisfy us and still be accessible enough for the suits at ABC. Also, I have to defend Eggtown. It wasn't as good as The Constant, but it was smart and well-written, gave us the face-to-face with Ben and Miles, not to mention the hand grenade breakfast Locke delivered to Miles. And what did Miles mean when he said he didn't want to be freed, because he's exactly where he wants to be? Plus, it's a Kate episode, and let's not forget how hot Kate is. The last moment, when we finally see her son and she calls him Aaron, is classic Lost.--bq 11:28, 3 March 2008 (PST)

It is disappointing to see the ratings drop like that, although there are so many factors, it's hard to know why it's happening. Lost ended up #3 in the timeslot after being #1 so far this season, it even ended up behind a rerun of CSI, which is not good. I think it may have been first in the key demos though. This episode lost to an episode of Don't Forget the Lyrics that followed a special thursday episode of American Idol (which has been absolutely killing this season). There are three more episodes at 9PM - it will be interesting to see how it does following the return of Ugly Betty and Grey's, which is one of the highest rated shows on TV. For a LONG time, Lost has had a terrible lead-in - we'll see if a strong one boosts ratings. --Minderbinder 12:48, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Ratings tend to go down when a show changes its day (exceptions being like when "Frasier" moved from Tuesday to Thursday -- 'course it moved back again...). I would think that 7-8 month hiatus also has an impact. Still, I don't think it's in the "danger" zone of being cancelled... Personally, I think one was the best episode yet this year. --Litany42 13:56, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Hey, can you please give us a link to where you got these charts? --CharlieReborn 14:01, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Minkowski's death similar to the comatose man in Primer

The movie Primer deals with a similar case of paradox ; While sneaking out at night to go time traveling, the main characters encounter a man they know on the street. As soon as they realize who he is, and that he's not supposed to be here (they phone him and he's at home), they get out of the car, and he collapses. Apparently, they were going to activate the machine and let him travel to the past, but when they saw him, it canceled it and he fell in a coma.

The main characters also suffer from some side effects after repeated travels : - Ear bleeding (similar to Minkowski and Desmond's nose bleed) - Unable to write with ease (They know what the letters are supposed to look like, but they cannot write them)

I know in this episode's case, the mind travels and not the body, but the symptoms and side effects are similar. I also felt that Daniel's experiment had a Primer feel to it (see the scene when they build/try their prototype).

To everyone that haven't seen this movie before, here's the IMDb link (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390384/). --Frankov 06:21, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Synopsis Timeframe Subtitles

Could we maybe consider adding titles to the 1996 and 2004 sections in the synopsis. I think the Contents bar looks horrible because it basically says 1996/2004/1996/2004/1996/... with no distinction between each identically named entry. I'd suggest something like:

  • 2004 - The Helicopter Ride
  • 1996 - The Army Barracks
  • 2004 - Arrival at the Freighter
  • 1996 - Workout in the Yard
  • 2004 - Sayid Phones Home
  • 1996 - Calling Penny
  • 2004 - Daniel's Plan
  • 1996 - Meeting Daniel
  • 2004 - Minkowski's Information
  • 1996 - The Constant
  • 2004 - The Plan to Call Penny
  • 1996 - The Auction
  • 2004 - Minkowski's Death
  • 1996 - Desmond Visits Penny
  • 2004 - Desmond and Penny Reunited

Or something along those lines, just so that they can be distinct in the Contents section. Jimbo the tubby 10:13, 4 March 2008 (PST)

I would recommend that they be taken out of the table of contents (i.e., make them bold dates but not headings) the section does not need to be subdivided for purposes of the Contents.--Chuck 10:36, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Agreed, that's much better than my idea. Looks waaaaay better now, too. Jimbo the tubby 16:49, 4 March 2008 (PST)

I liked Jimbo's first idea better. It's harder to edit the article the way it is now
I like the idea, I think this should be done. --     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email   08:23, 5 March 2008 (PST)
I think that so many headings is bad. Perhaps three or four would be a better plan. For example, "Trip to the Freighter" would be in the synopsis, and it would cover the helo ride, the army barracks, and arriving on the freighter. You know, those three year switches. I'm not suggesting we lose the year switches in the article, but rather that we replace them in the synopsis with actual subtitles that can group them together.
  • Trip to the Kahana (1-4)
  • Desmond Hume is unstuck in time (5-9)
  • Search for a Constant (10-13)
  • Reunion (14, 15)
It's just a suggestion, we can come up with more formal titles, I'm sure. --MFXD 09:58, 5 March 2008 (PST)
  • What about the scene on the beach?

Penny's phone number should not be considered a blooper

I understand what someone is getting at with Penny's phone number under the blooper section, but I really don't think this is a blooper. There are fake numbers set aside for TV and movie usage (See: ofcom), akin to 555- numbers in the States. We wouldn't complain a phone number was a blooper for using 555-; therefore, I think the entry for using the fake UK number should be removed. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:40, 4 March 2008 (PST)

  • Agree. --erikire 19:34, 4 March 2008 (PST)
    • Yeah, I mean, if it were a real number, would somebody say it was a blooper because there wasn't really a Penelope Widmore listed at that number in 2004? Robert K S 19:54, 4 March 2008 (PST)
  • It's not the same as the US 555 code. Lets say someone was calling New York and they dialled 213 555 1234. Would you consider that a blooper? Yes you would, because 213 is Los Angeles, not New York! The 555 part is irrelevant, it is the 213 part that is the blooper. The fact is that Central London numbers in 1996 were of the format 0171 XXX XXXX. But in 2004, it would have changed to 020 7XXX XXXX. So Penny should have quoted her number as 946 0893. Sayid would have known to put +44207 because Desmond told him it's a Central London number. He already knew the code for London is +4420, so it's not much of a stretch to assume he knows Central London is +44207. It wouldn't have affected the plot at all, to get it right. It should be mentioned in the bloopers, not in the general trivia section. --Chesebrgr 02:08, 5 March 2008 (PST)
  • Of course the big problem is that Desmond would not be able to call Penny with the phone number. They could waste precious scripted seconds with Sayid saying -- "oh, hey, don't forget that London changed to 207 back in..." So for the sake of the story, they probably just made it simple and ignored the fact that the numbers changed. Whether you want to call this a blooper or not is up for interpretation I suppose. --Litany42 13:36, 5 March 2008 (PST)
    • Well they really don't need to do that. Penny gives the number to Desmond as 946 0893. Desmond gives the number to Sayid as 946 0893, saying that it is a Central London number. Sayid already knows the dialling code for London is 4420, so its not much of a stretch to assume he knows Central London is 44207). No superfluous scripting or boring conversation. --Chesebrgr 02:33, 6 March 2008 (PST)
  • Perfect -- even better! So what's this conversation about then...? lol --Litany42 12:03, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Removed a couple more Unanswered Questions

One was along the lines of 'Did Desmonds time-travelling cause him to end up in Military Prison?', which is speculation in the form of a question. The other was: "What happens to Desmond's 2004 consciousness when his 1996 consciousness is occupying his body in 2004?", which seems to assume a lot of things we don't know for certain about the way time travel etc works in the show - I would say that Desmond only has one consciousness and that he loses his memory from after 1996, but since we don't know the details this question is assuming too much.Liquidcow 14:29, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Regarding "What happens to Desmond's 2004 consciousness when his 1996 consciousness is occupying his body in 2004?" - what is it assuming that we don't know? We know his 1996 consciousness occupied his 2004 body. To ask what happened to his 2004 consciousness is a natural and logical question that follows from the situation. I think it's more presumptive to explain it away. -- Graft   talk   contributions  16:12, 4 March 2008 (PST)
The real question to ask here is: "Is this a mystery we should expect to be resolved in a future episode of the show?" If the answer is no, the unanswered question is not valid. Robert K S 02:49, 5 March 2008 (PST)

Blooper or Nitpick

I see some 'bloopers' were removed recently so mainly asking this in order to learn to be a good wiki citizen. I looked for material that explained what is or is not a blooper (as well as the other boilerplate sections in a standard epi page) so if you can point me to the guidelines that would be great. So the blooper I had entered (now gone) was about the gauges in the helo – RPM and Oil Pressure were at zero while the thing was supposedly in flight (see screenshots of Daniel’s map taped to the instrument panel and you can see the gauges). So is that not a blooper? Or is it just nitpicking because without benefit of a screenshot it is not obvious? Thanks. --J.nc 08:30, 5 March 2008 (PST)

Look, I don't know the guidelines personally or anything, but what you had was a blooper. I've seen the same caliber of bloopers listed on other pages and it's all gravy. The-room 09:32, 5 March 2008 (PST)
I agree someone just deleted a lot of bloopers in a signal edit with no explanation --CharlieReborn 09:57, 5 March 2008 (PST)
That IS a blooper, definitely. So why don't you put it again? --erikire 20:29, 5 March 2008 (PST)
Thanks all, added it back. --J.nc 10:23, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Glasgow to Oxford -- No Blackouts!

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but isn't curious that Desmond travelled from Glasgow to Oxford without any blackouts? I'm not sure of the train times, but I would think that it would take at least five hours to get from the camp to Oxford University -- no? Before the trip, he's blacking out every 5 minutes, and after the trip he's blacking out every 5 minutes, but during this time, nothing. --Litany42 13:50, 5 March 2008 (PST)

I wonder how he got to London without another blackout. --Meerkat 03:31, 6 March 2008 (PST)
Most likely a restriction of show time to be honest, think how long (And boring) it would have taken to show him black out every 5 minutes on the train journey. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 03:32, 6 March 2008 (PST)
I'm sorry but you are wrong assuming he had blackouts every 5 minutes. We do not know how long it took before he left his bed and was in the middle of his "training" (probably a lot more than 5 minutes), his next blackout occured when picking up the money which was after the training, after running, after helping out a fellow soldier with some crates. That could be like 1-2 hours or more. The only 5 minute blackout I can think of is the blackout in the telephone booth. BeŻet 06:59, 6 March 2008 (PST)
Agreed, although it was mentioned that the "flashes" would happen alot faster as each one went on by Minkowski.. although someone else said it gets harder to get back each time if i remember correctly.. Anyway yeah, the story the writers will use for having no flashes on the train journey will be each one is of varying time, and sometimes its harder to go back. However the real world constraints would have been ultimately what made that happen. "think how long (And boring) it would have taken to show him black out every 5 minutes on the train journey." --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 07:20, 6 March 2008 (PST)

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I said every five minutes. My point was that there is a long stretch in the middle there where he doesn't black out. Yes, it was probably to keep the story moving. But I wonder why they didn't have Desmond on leave in London to start with, so that moving to Oxford and Penny's wasn't so... awkward from a plotting point of view? Having him get in trouble with his CO certainly upped the tension level, but they could have found something to happen to him in London. Anyway, enough of that -- new episode coming up in six hours! --Litany42 12:01, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Ive got to wait til tomorrow :( one of the downsides of living in the UK! --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 13:43, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Queen's College Physics Department website information

I've commented out: "The Queen's College, Oxford, does not have a physics department. Instead, the University of Oxford has various physics sub-departments situated throughout the city." to prevent this being re-added; official Oxford website: http://www.queens.ox.ac.uk/academics/taylor talking about a tutor who works in the physics department at Queens College. Even if they do not have an official physics department at Queens College, it is evidently an accepted practice to say it in a similar manner as Daniel used in the show, and therefore, not a blooper. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:45, 6 March 2008 (PST)

  • It says he is a physics tutor, yes. It says he is a fellow at Queens College, yes. Where does it say he works at Queens College Physics Department? You are combining two pieces of unrelated information. In fact if you click the link on that page entitled "my departmental homepage", it gives his work address as "University of Oxford, Department of Physics, Clarendon Laboratory, Parks Road, Oxford OX1 3PU". NOT Queens College. Queens College is on High Street. So, you are completely wrong here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chesebrgr (talkcontribs) 2008-03-07T05:40:22.

Real episode reference?

  • The alarm the doctor activates on the freighter is very similar to the alarm in the Swan that indicates "System Failure".
I don't think so. It's just a generic kind of alarm... --erikire 22:37, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Paradox Regained

To me, there is a paradox in future Daniel providing himself with parameters for his device in the past. It is almost like the device invented itself, like the Worm Ourobouros eating its own tail.

And the setting of 11 MhZ may be a reference to "This is Spinal Tap". The gain on the amp went "all the way to 11" for when you need that "extra push over the cliff". Or maybe it's just a coincidence and the real reason is that 15 minus 4 is 11. WCFrancis 12:48, 9 March 2008 (PDT)

  • Maybe the Island told him the numbers. And arithmatic of the Numbers is always a bad idea, you can make any number by adding/subtracting them. I am 31 years old, that is 15+16, oooooo I am special! --Chesebrgr 02:51, 10 March 2008 (PDT)

Other works with similar content

Is this section really necessary? To me, it just looks like a list of films, etc that happen to have something to do with time travel and/or predestination paradox. I'd be in favour of just deleting the section alltogether, as it seems rather tangential to the article. Thoughts? Jimbo the tubby 12:32, 10 March 2008 (PDT)

Where goeth flashback trivia?

The uniqueness of the flashback is put under "literary techniques" here, but under "general" in other episode articles. Should we aim for some consistancy? --Jackdavinci 17:07, 16 March 2008 (PDT)

Helicopter's lost time

See below for my new diagram w/ possible explanations of the missing two days.Kevrock 10:09, 28 March 2008 (PDT)

Helicopter losttime diagram

Diagram showing possible explanations for the helicopter's lost time

Cool, I like it. Jimbo the tubby 11:05, 28 March 2008 (PDT)


"took out wiki headings 'cuz they show up in the TOC and look bad"

Jimbo the Tubby and I apparently disagree over what "looks bad". He thinks it's bad to have a lot of entries in the table of contents. I think the unmotivated overemphasis of bold italic looks bad. But, all the episode synopses have flashes breakdowns in the ToCs. This one certainly doesn't go too overboard in that respect. Robert K S (talk) 05:50, 3 April 2008 (PDT)

Suggested solution: Use <big>'''big and bold tags'''</big> - like this. They look the same as L3 headlines, but won't flood the TOC.--TechNic|talk|conts 06:23, 3 April 2008 (PDT)
I agree with all three of you. The breakdown of a normal episode doesn't look bad on TOC (like "Flashbacks", "Real-Time Events", or even more specific ones like "x's Flashback") but this one is a little too much. The thing is, the titles look repetitive (such as "2004 - freighter", which appears six times). I also agree with Robert about the bold italic looking bad, so I guess the best solution is TechNic's: pseudo-titles. --     c      blacxthornE      t     10:29, 3 April 2008 (PDT)

It looks bad in this episode because many of the headings are the same, and it leaves redundant entries in the TOC. This had been discussed earlier in the talk page, so I didn't give a longer explanation, but I guess I should've so my bad on that. Anyways, having a large TOC is fine, but having (as Blacxthorne says) 6 entries for "2004 - freighter" is absurd and only clutters the box. I like TechNic's solution, though. Jimbo the tubby 12:32, 3 April 2008 (PDT)

I've gone and changed them to the dummy headings as suggested. I spotted Template:Nolist and wonder if it can be fixed to resolve Graft's concerns (See the template's talk page).--TechNic|talk|conts 18:02, 20 April 2008 (PDT)

The other Desmond

In this episode, we can see Des96 in Des04's body. Where is Des04 when this happens?

Kinda the same thing happens in Flashes Before Your Eyes: if Des04 gets back to 1996 (the producers say it's 1996 too), where does Des96 stay when his body is being "possessed" by Des04?

One thing to keep in mind is that those 1996 dates happen in different moments. It's not like they happen at the same time and there's the necessary switch between the two. -. Grillage .- 23:25, 25 April 2008 (PDT)

3 years?

I haven't watched all episodes yet, so i'm not sure if this is a blooper: If time on the Island is slower than time off the Island, how can Penny and Desmond both have experienced his time on the Island as 3 years?--Decepticon Rhinox 23:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Little bit of wrong info

In the 'Bloopers and continuity errors' section, it says "When Daniel is telling the frequency numbers to Desmond on the phone, he says 2.342. But when Desmond write the numbers in his hand it can be seen that he writes 2.4..."

This is actually, wrong. Desmond does, in fact, write 2.3. You can see it if you pause the episode at the correct time. I have taken a screenshot for those of you who care (Not too many, I'm sure :P)

Link to the screenshot

I don't want to mess anything up, and it's not a huge deal really, so I won't edit the main page, just thought this note should be here.

--Tragik7 07:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Good catch. I've removed it. And nothing is too small of a deal when it comes to inaccuracies. Especially considering the size of episode articles. :) -- Graft   talk   contributions  06:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Daniel unstuck in time at the same time???

Great episode, just a brief question: At the end of the episode, we learn that Desmond is Daniel's constant... when I thought about it, I realized Daniel may also be unstuck in time too, experiencing flashes around the same time, and thus 1996 Daniel is consciously 2004 Daniel, and, having found a constant in Desmond, stops experiencing the flashes at the same time Desmond does. Everything he said was merely acting in order to help Desmond find his constant, and he could not allow his constant to die. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TomCaruso (talkcontribs) .

  • It's a decent and clever theory, but seeing as the series is over and there's been no hint of Daniel being unstuck in time since his arrival on the Island, I'd say it's not the case. And please sign your talk posts. --Celebok 05:15, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

Picture discussion

Pictogram voting support Any reason we chose the current pic over the more obvious choice -= Desmond calling Penny? Were were afraid of the cliche or something?--- Balk Of Fametalk 04:36, August 7, 2010 (UTC)
4x05 CallingPenny

Widely considered the best

I've removed a line from the trivia section that said, "This is widely considered to be one of the best episodes," because it was too subjective to be a trivia fact, despite my agreement that it was one of the best episodes and I've heard many people on Lostpedia say the same. If somebody were to dig up a valid statistic to indicate the popularity of this episode, I wouldn't mind adding it to the trivia, but the point is that we need some sort of objective facts to back it up. --Celebok 00:33, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Episode connections

I took out the following:

  • In "?",John tells Eko, "....like a rat in a maze with no cheese...". This is similar to Eloise's condition when Daniel Faraday conducts his experiment.

It's too vague to be a callback. It would be interesting to place this on the page for "?" as an unintentional call-forward, but we haven't come to a consensus about that idea. --- Balk Of Fametalk 14:58, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I think it could be considered an allusion, if just an unintentional one. Perhaps just add it as trivia to one of the episodes? You know, one of those useless but actually a little interesting facts you can tell friends when they have a Lost themed cocktail party.--Baker1000 19:54, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
What do you know - turns out it's there in"?" as "foreshadowing". Only... it isn't really foreshadowing, is it? I really would like to reopen the idea separate "past episodes" and "future episode" sections under "episode connections, each listing references and allusions. --- Balk Of Fametalk 17:33, April 15, 2011 (UTC)
I like the idea. The only problem with is most allusions are always going to be unintentional as the writers never had that much detail planned out. This is a good example right here. I guess allusions to past episodes are somewhat unintentional too though.--Baker1000 20:06, April 15, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, most would be unintentional. But unintentional can still be significant. The references section of the future connections would say things like "Jack talks of counting to five ("The Incident, Part 1")" which are totally unintentional (the writers didn't plan to film the scene at the time) but still definite connections. The allusions section though would contain connections that are... a lot less definite. --- Balk Of Fametalk 20:23, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

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