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Proposal to add to the template

Regularly spoken phrases

  • I am of two minds. Are "regularly spoken phrases" a literary technique, or a recurring theme? --Hunter61 03:49, 3 February 2008 (PST)
  • Yeah, this is one that sort of blurs the lines and overlaps into both categories. (I mean, recurring themes kind of seem like literary techniques themselves anyway - but we don't need to consider that. ;)) However-- I think regularly spoken phrases can be distinguished from the other recurring themes in terms of being a device used by the writers; whereas something like fate vs. free will is not. I think the thing that muddles how to categorize it is that regularly spoken phrases are a technique used by the writers that often get at important themes. Like repeated use of the word "special" could tie in to a theme of good and bad people, for instance. So I would consider them, top level, a technique; they just happen to sometimes suggest themes. I don't think the use of repeated phrases itself is any kind of important theme. -- Graft   talk   contributions  04:48, 3 February 2008 (PST)

Secret messages

(Reposting here after "Storyline analysis")

Aren't the anagrams, messages and general "easter eggs" to be considered as literary techniques? I mean this as a genuine question, not even a suggestion at this point. Sure they aren't properly literary as much as they're visual, but they're part of the storytelling technique and always add extra information. Also, they're clearly recurring. I'm not sure how this could be referenced to, so I'm using "secret messages" as just a way of putting the subject out. Maybe it should be "visual clues" or something. -. Grillage .- 21:17, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Proposal

What if we reorganise literary portals in a manner similar to the organisation used on this website? Right now we have a jumble of literary devices. For example, Symbolism and Flashback are "Story Devices", Irony and Juxtaposition are "Comparative Devices". What if we have a literary portal with separate articles for each of the following: Character Devices (e.g., Narrator, Tragic Hero), Comparative Devices (e.g., Euphemism, Irony), Plotting Devices (e.g., Conflict, Denouement/Resolution), Rhetorical Devices (e.g., Aside, Rhetorical Questions), Story Devices (e.g., Symbolism, Tragic Devices, Flashback, Foreshadowing). -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 07:45, 7 April 2008 (PDT)

Literary techniques
Story Devices
FlashbacksFlashforwardsForeshadowingRegularly spoken phrasesSymbolismUnreliable narrator

Plotting Devices
CliffhangerMindf*ckPlot twist


Comparative Devices
IronyJuxtaposition


Stock Characters
ArchetypeRedshirtUnseen character

I like this. I like it a lot. I think we should definitely do it... It would be more organized, which would probably make cross-referencing easier. It would look better too. --     c      blacxthornE      t     08:53, 8 April 2008 (PDT)
Any ideas on how to make this suggestion more visual so others can help decide whether to proceed? -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 21:13, 9 April 2008 (PDT) Edit: I've added a rewrite banner, but I'm not sure that was the best one, because it's really a suggestion of reorganisation.
Looks good, Dagg. Think we could add that to the nav box? Or would that make it too cluttered? My concern is to help editors who are not familiar with the devices. Having standards shown would certainly reduce the amount of cleanup needed to remove incorrectly placed examples. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 22:17, 9 April 2008 (PDT)
I think we can add it to NavMinor-LiteraryTechniques, but not to Nav-Storyline. I don't want to act alone on these things, but it doesn't look like anyone's concerned. Is everybody so focused on mindf*ck? ;) Anyway I added an example to the right... It could've looked like this. --     c      blacxthornE      t     05:52, 10 April 2008 (PDT)
(snort! Now see what you made me do???!!!??? :)) That was basically what I had in mind. Would it be better with small sub-headers? -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 06:55, 10 April 2008 (PDT)
Well, I didn't think of that since they were headers, but I don't mind either way... Mine was just a visual aid, and it was based on some Wikipedia infoboxes like this, and headers there are actually bigger... Well, not bigger, but bold, you know what I mean. Anyhow... this one would better be perfected by those who know what's more appropriate. --     c      blacxthornE      t     07:07, 10 April 2008 (PDT)
Literary techniques
Story Devices
FlashbacksFlashforwardsForeshadowingRegularly spoken phrasesSymbolismUnreliable narrator

Plotting Devices
CliffhangerMindf*ckPlot twist


Comparative Devices
IronyJuxtaposition


Stock Characters
ArchetypeRedshirtUnseen character

Either way works for me :) -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 08:46, 10 April 2008 (PDT)

Looks really really good to me, but it depends where this template is going to be used. For example, if it is used on the episode pages, then it might be too tall. Here is an example where even the current template is too tall: Flashes Before Your Eyes#Literary techniques (at least on my screen). -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 23:54, 10 April 2008 (PDT)
Hmm. You have a point. I use a wide screen monitor with a smaller resolution, so things look different than they might look to the average viewer. We can keep playing with it over time to see what looks best. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 00:20, 11 April 2008 (PDT)
Literary techniques
Story • FlashbacksFlashforwardsForeshadowingRegularly spoken phrasesSymbolismUnreliable narrator • Plotting • CliffhangerMindf*ckPlot twist • Comparative • IronyJuxtaposition • Stock • ArchetypeRedshirtUnseen character
Actually a simple {{brclear}} template would help with the situation in your example, but I get your point; this one might be even too tall for that. When I proposed this navbox I thought of the individual literary technique pages only (like the Foreshadowing article) but didn't think of its usage in episode article pages. As I said, it's just an idea for now, and as LOSTonthisdarnisland suggested, we can keep playing with it. Here's another example: --     c      blacxthornE      t     04:05, 11 April 2008 (PDT)
That looks good. Would it strangle things to have the header bits in bold? Should this part of the discussion continue on Template:NavMinor-LiteraryTechniques? -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 06:06, 11 April 2008 (PDT)
Literary techniques
Story :  FlashbacksFlashforwardsForeshadowingRegularly spoken phrasesSymbolismUnreliable narrator • PlottingCliffhangerPlot twist • ComparativeIronyJuxtaposition • Stock Characters:  ArchetypeRedshirtUnseen character
No and yes. It wouldn't strangle things to have the header bits in bold, but you just can't do it with such a small text size! And yes, let's take it there. --     c      blacxthornE      t     06:30, 11 April 2008 (PDT)

Proposal: Disorientation

It took me ages to find the word to describe this one, but I've noticed this one repeatedly in Lost. By Disorientation I mean that the show often tricks us in terms of where a scene is, then reveals that it is somewhere else. Examples include the opening scenes of A Tale of Two Cities, Not In Portland, and The Man Behind the Curtain, and there are plenty of others. I'm not sure if it would fit the definition of the word but this could maybe also include tricks about time, although that's only really been done twice as far as I remember (with the introduction of flashforwards, and the Ji Yeon episode, although possibly the opening scenes of seasons 2 and 3 as well).Liquidcow 09:40, 11 April 2008 (PDT)

Actually none of the elements in Literary Techniques are just coined. They're all well-known techniques used in all kinds of literature. Although Lostpedia allows original research in some occasions, your definition of disorientation seems to be already covered by plot twist and/or mindf*ck, and any occasions that are not, are basic plot progression elements or just surprises. That does not necessarily make them a literary technique. This kind of surprise might, however, be considered as a recurring theme, albeit an odd one. They do use it a lot, plot twist or not. The opening scene of season 4 made us think we were on the Island, until Hurley's car smashed the fruit pile. It has nothing to do with the plot so it's not a plot twist; it's not mindf*ck. So, is it a recurring theme? --     c      blacxthornE      t     10:26, 11 April 2008 (PDT)
  • I know the method you are talking about. It was used in "Ship in a Bottle" on STTNG (revealing the level of my geekdom) to fool Data, Picard, and Barclay (as well as the audience) into believing they were outside the holodeck when they weren't. I'm not sure of the proper literary device (Is unreliable setting a real device?), but I suggest we put those examples under plot twist until the proper term is found and fleshed out, since plot is really the generic term for how they tell us the story, and it's definitely a twist. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 17:48, 11 April 2008 (PDT)
  • Well I think it depends on the occasion. All of them are kinda twists, granted, but a plot twist is a change of direction in the plot. The opening scene of Season 4 was not a plot twist. It was just a joke :) It had nothing to do with the plot (well, actually the plot was not even introduced at that point) and I don't see how it can be a plot twist. But they definitely do that a lot, as you said, an unreliable setting, maybe. But I don't think it's a Plotting Device--we're using these terms because of you now ;). So I still say no. But I'd like it if we came up with something else. --     c      blacxthornE      t     03:03, 12 April 2008 (PDT)
  • LOL, and sounds good to me. I'd rather see something wait until we had the proper term, instead of just putting it in willy nilly. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 05:52, 12 April 2008 (PDT)
Yeh I know most of the literary terms are established literary techniques, perhaps 'recurring theme' is more appropriate. It's just such a frequent part of the show, I know it's done in other works before Lost, but Lost does it so often that I'm surprised it isn't covered on here. I can see that it would go under plot twist. With regards to whether it's part of the plot, it surely is, anything that is part of the way the story is told is part of the plotting. If saying 'it was all a dream' is a plot twist, then saying 'they were actually on the island' must be as well.Liquidcow 12:06, 13 April 2008 (PDT)

Cliffhanger image

I think we should replace the actual Cliffhanger image with the REAL cliffhanger from season 1... that is, Jack and John over the open hatch... what do you think? -- Dottorcere  talk  contributions  02:42, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

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