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Split character pages

Am I the only person that doesn't like the characters being split into normal and flash sideways timelines? Does anyone agree that they should be put in the normal character pages instead? 01lander 17:05, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support It's a mess right now, and it leads to problematic situations, such as appearances count issues. Some of the foreign Lostpedias have kept the info on a single page and it seems to work out pretty well for them. See here here and here. Unfortunately, I don't speak any of those languages, so I can't comment further on the pages, but ... it just seems way simpler to keep everything on one page. There appears to be a huge majority of people who prefer split pages, however ... --LeoChris 17:53, March 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The universes should be split. Jdray 05:11, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting support I'm obviously in favour of. 01lander 16:11, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose The character's have completely different lives in the flash-sidways, they should be treated as such.--Zymophideth 02:10, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

What is the Point of This???

Everybody is alive, happy, and healthy off the Island in the sideways timeline. Why is there a portal saying that everyone is alive, happy, and healthy? Isn't this a waste of timeline-space? Marc604 04:15, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Same reason there is a portal for Kahana, Others, Jacob's faction etc.  ODK  Talk  Sandbox  21:23, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
Plus this is Lost. Do you honestly expect all the flash-sideways characters to be alive, happy and healthy by the end of this season? --Golden Monkey 21:24, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

It's a quick easy way of keeping track of the important characters in the flash-sideways timeline. At the moment it's a good way to keep track of which characters have appeared in both timelines, although this may change if some of the sideways-only characters become more prominent. At any rate, I find it interesting. If you don't, then how is it bothering you for us to have?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  01:59, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Blue VS. Green

It was brought to my attention that some want the portal's categories to stay the same, thus green will still symbolize on-island while blue will symbolize off-island. Though I believe, in this case, having blue as "off-island" is redundant. In the timeline the portal is based on, the island is underwater. The survivors cannot be on it. This leads me to believe that having "alive", "unknown" and "deceased" are the only colors we need for this portal, as having blue symbolizing "off-island" will confuse others.  ODK  Talk  Sandbox  19:48, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support Nobody can be on the island in the Alt timeline ... except maybe Ezra James Sharkington. --LeoChris 19:53, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • Pictogram voting oppose Really, how would having the a universal color scheme that is used on every portal on the site confuse people. Confusing is having every portal except one use the same color scheme which is what this change would do. By using your argument you could say that if frank and miles both died we should change deceased to green and get rid of all the other colors on the Kahana portal because they wouldnt be needed, now how would that make any sense. A universal color scheme will help people understand the portals better. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  20:14, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
That example has nothing to do with this portal. This portal is about a new and parallel timeline, where no one can be on the island. So having all of the characters blue, with the option of "on-island" still in the key would not make any sense. In this timeline, there's no island. We need to accommodate to the new idea of different timelines, and believe me, with the title of "Flash-Sideways Characters", no one will be confused why none of them are listed as "off-island".  ODK  Talk  Sandbox  20:18, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Green, they can't be on the island. If they return to the island, we can talk about it. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 20:52, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose We should make them blue. If you feel we only need to use one, then why not just use blue for consistancy between portals. Why would you want to use green at all? If all you want to distinguish is Alive/Unknown/Dead then we should just go with Blue/Yellow/Red for the three categories.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  17:43, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply Why blue? Green/Yellow/Red makes more sense in my opinion. It's like, a traffic light code, everybody is familiar with that.--LeoChris 23:39, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply Red, Yellow, Green How can they be on the island? cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 23:41, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply LeoChris: Because blue is the colour for off-Island EVERYWHERE ELSE! If you're saying that all the characters are off-Island, then all of them should be blue... It's that simple. Nobody is saying they can be on the Island cgmv123: They can't. In fact, they're all OFF the Island. Therefore we should use the colour that represents OFF the Island EVERYWHERE ELSE! I don't understand how this is even an argument.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  01:22, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply If they can't be on the island, then why do we have to say they're not? cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 01:31, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply For the sake of consistency with the other portals. To put my argument a different way, if they're not on the Island then why are we implying that they are by using the same colour that we use for "on Island" everywhere else?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  02:10, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply The way I see it, we have two different sets of variables. In the normal timeline, on island is the majority of cases, and therefore those who do not comply with this specification get a special status. It is reversed for the flashsideways, and as such, I think the colours should be reversed. If, for example, Charlotte or Juliet ends up alive on the island in the flashsideways, since they are not the majority, they should be listed as blue. Blue was always intended, to my knowledge, to be the colour that stands out as an exception to the rule. Maybe it's just me, but listing everybody blue just seems inefficient. --LeoChris 02:52, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply I don't know what gave you the impression that blue was for the exceptions... Since it's creation, it was always used to signal out the off-Island folks. See this old version of a portal for an example of one where the majority of the portals were blue (or... rather, red... but blue was a close 2nd) and see this old discussion for the origins of the colours (please note that they didn't stay with the original proposal, but it does show that after the colours were finally decided, blue was immediately "off-Island" as opposed to "exceptions". I don't see any reason to swap the colours for the two timelines, other than what seems to be a "because I want to" argument. The best thing we can do is maintain consistency between portals. It's counter-intuitive to mark the off-Island alternate characters with the colour otherwise used for on-Island characters; to the point of potentially even being confusing.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:02, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Why on earth Leochris would we use the exact opposite portal colors for this portal than the ones we use everywhere else on the website. According to your rules if the majority of people were dead we would change dead to green. These arguments are getting ridiculous it needs to be changed, being consistent will not confuse anyone. Anyone thats ever visted any portal page will understand the color scheme however when they come here they have to read some ridiculous disclaimer about how blue will not be used, how is that less confusing then the other portals. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  04:24, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Also not long ago Leochris i participated in adiscussion with you now do not take this as an attack (im just puzzeled)but in this disscusion which was regarding color scheme on the character appearances page you said quote: "As is, the colors used on this page are *only* used on this page. I think that modifying them to match the scale used everywhere else on the site can only be an improvement. First of all, it would be way more user-friendly for new users, and for the old-timers well if they're used to this legend, they should also be familiar with the other one." basically you thought it would be a good idea to use the same color scheme on every page throughout the site so as not to confuse new users, at the time i disagreed and i now understand your point, i was wrong. This discussion took place maybee 2 months ago. Now i was wrong originally so i could see why i flip flopped but you had a good pooint so i just wonder why you said we should use the same color scheme everywhere on the site then but now your saying the exact opposite. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  04:45, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
You're right, I did say that. And I agree with myself, thinking it over. You know, my problem is that I'll sometimes comment on talk pages with some controversial/crazy thing, without really thinking it over. Disregard my previous comments on this page. --LeoChris 05:20, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose For one simple fact, when i first saw this page i noticed the error of everyone being green but had to read the little note to see that this wasnt an error. The fact that I had to read the note shows that it would be easier if everyone were just blue. Not that im lazy but what is the harm in keeping with the same portal colors. --THE REAL DEAL998 23:05, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose They should all be blue (or red if dead). If we simply call blue "alive" here instead of "alive off island" then we have both consistancy of colors with the rest of the site and also we don't have the redundant information of calling everyone off island. Surely that satisfies everyone? Mhtmghnd 03:55, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Done.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:49, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Side menu

Anyone know how to put this portal on the main menu at the side of every page with the other character portals? Mhtmghnd 03:55, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

David

David has not appeared in the original timeline and has appeared in one flashsideways ep, why is he on this portal?Blender83 17:33, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we should move him to supporting characters, he is in 3 flashsideways, more than Arzt or Nadia. --Crohall 20:21, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

3 episode criteria

When/where was the criteria that a character had to appear in 3 flash-sideways episodes to be included established? It seems like an arbitrary number that somebody randomly pulled out of thin air with no discussion. Did I just miss this?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  02:01, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

I personally didnt come up with the 3 episode limit and my best guess is someone pulled it out of nowhere without discussion. But for now I would say its a good limit I think we need to se where the season goes. I mean I dont think we should put every character that shows up in the fs timeline here. Like the guy that took of Kates cuffs hes useless and means nothing to the timeline. If they continue this route throughout season 6 this page would get too big if we were to put up characters like him. Cuz we all know were just gonna keep seing characters from our timeline popping up so that would make the page big enough. For now I say leave it at three if it becomes a problem we can change it. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  02:45, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I have no problem with the 3 episodes, but at the moment there *are* no such characters, and I think listing criteria which no characters fulfill is just confusing. I suggest that we take the criteria out of the article and just add it back in if/when it becomes relevent. I do agree that we shouldn't add *all* the FS characters, but all the ones who appeared in both timelines seems like a good limit for the time being.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  02:48, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
I agree but do you think we should leave a hidden note saying not to add characters like David, or Dogens son. Idk cuz it seems like everytime i leave one of those people ignore it anyway. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  02:58, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
Couldn't hurt. But I don't know if that will stop people who aren't going to read the criteria anyways.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:57, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
We should just leave the episode rule off til there actually is a recurring character in the alt who isn't a bit part like the cab driver was. So if, say, David takes a prominent role throughout multiple episodes-yeah, then come up with a rule and add people. I doubt there'll be many characters like that. --Golden Monkey 21:15, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Consistancy

The Passengers and crew section is listed by episode count from the start of the season (using up to date count, Hurley is before Sawyer and Claire is before Charlie), and the other lists are in alphabetical order. Shouldn't all lists on the page be ordered by episode count, alphabet or flash sideways ep count, if not, at least have a note at the top of the page explaining the different orders. And if we are using a count, can someone update it? I would do it but I'd be treading on someone's toes who alphabetised the family list.Blender83 00:31, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as all the characters from the family, work and acquittances sections only appeared once, the default is alphabetical.  ODK  Talk  Sandbox  05:07, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
By that logic, shouldn't the 815 passengers be listed by appearence in the flash sideways timeline, which is:
  • Jack(5), Artz(3), Hurley(3), Kate(3), Jin(3),
  • Locke(3), Mars(3), Sayid(3), Claire(2), Neil(2),
  • Rose(2), Sawyer(2), Sun(2), Bernard(1), Boone(1),
  • Charlie(1), Cindy(1), Desmond(1), Seth(1/audio only)

I'm aware that this order places Artz in a high position compared to more central cast, but you can add a rule that says in a tie break, billed cast past and present take precedence:

  • Jack(5), Hurley(3), Kate(3), Jin(3), Locke(3),
  • Sayid(3), Artz(3*), Mars(3*), Claire(2), Sawyer(2),
  • Sun(2), Neil(2*), Rose(2*), Boone(1), Charlie(1),
  • Desmond(1), Bernard(1*), Cindy(1*), Seth(1/audio only*)

Blender83 18:48, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Christian and Cooper

They had no image. I added in ones from the photos seen in Jack and Locke's flash-sideways in Lighthouse and The Substitute respectively. Just wanted to note that if anyone's curious; we may not have seen them in person, but unlike-say-Shannon we know what they look like in this timeline. --Golden Monkey 14:48, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Desmond was a passenger

I was going to protest Desmond's grouping with the passengers of Flight 815, but I realized as I came over here that Desmond was indeed a passenger on 815 in the flash-sideways timeline.--Pittsburghmuggle 20:25, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Desmond's status

Why is Desmond's status listed as unknown? 03:31, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

  • Probably because some people argue Desmond wasn't really on the plane / that it was original!Desmond time traveling somehow / some other sort of weird theory... I don't really get it myself, but there seems to be consensus... --LeoChris 04:25, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • i am not doubting you at all when you say there appears to be a consensus but could you tell me where this consensus was reached i would love to take a look at the reasoning behind it. i am sure there are some great arguments in favor of him being listed as unknown which will convince me of that but right now i am having a hard time thinking he didn't disembark from the plane when it landed at LAX. thanks.Jdray 23:56, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • PS I am considering just changing it to see how long it will be before someone notices and changes it back and then ask them. Hopefully someone will start posting the arguments here. Jdray 23:58, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
      • Unfortunately, I can't remember where the discussion took place. Perhaps I'm just going crazy, though I'd like to think that's not the case... If I stumble upon it, I'll make sure to forward the link to you. --LeoChris 04:20, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well thank god that is finally over. Jdray 03:24, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Dogen's son

Since Dogen's son appeared in the flash-sideways timeline and was mentioned in the original timeline, then he "appeared" in both timelines, so shouldn't he be added to the page, if we follow the rules of the page? Shannon was also only mentioned in one of the timelines and she is here. -  Rasmus Ni  Talk  Contributions  17:12, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

  • I think the difference here is that Shannon, a major character from the main timeline, has been mentioned in the alternate versus a minor character from the Alt. timeline being mentioned in the main one. It's not the same thing, in my opinion anyway. --LeoChris 23:23, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
He didnt "appear" in both timeilines he only appeared in the fs timeline. Shannon is on here because she falls in the line with the rules we discussed. There is only one rule to be on this page you must have appeared in the original timeline. Shannon did Dogens son didnt. Being mentioned does not count as appearing, that would be ridiculous. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  20:21, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
Once again you misunderstand the purpose of something here, like you do with character appearances or flash-sideways character articles. The appearance rule means that we must know that they exist in the main timeline. We know Dogen's son has a main timeline equivalent. Yes, he didn't "appear", but the important part is that he exists in both timelines. --Golden Monkey 13:22, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
Once again your level of stupidity shows Goldemonkey like it does on the character appearances or flash sideways articles. The appearance rule states they must appear in case you dont know what it means i suggest you get a dictionary. Your own appearance is rules dont apply to this pg. Your attacks on me are laughable much like your edits. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  01:50, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

Background characters

There are background characters such as Craig, Jerome and several others who have appeared in the flash-sideways timeline. Should they not be added to the portal as they are characters who have appeared in the original timeline that we have seen again. They fit the criteria stated at the top of the page so I don't see why they shouldn't be included. --SuperJar 14:25, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

  • Huh, neat, I didn't even notice them in the episode: that's cool. At any rate, I propose modifying the criteria to exclude background extras. But that's just me.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:20, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
I collected them on my user page. Background characters, mind. And I don't think extras should be added either. Well, except for if Vincent shows up. --Golden Monkey 13:28, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
Proposal Change appeared to credited as main character or guest star and appearing in the original timeline. This would mostly keep the current choosing of characters and make it so we don't have to add all the background extras. (If you have better proposals, feel free to add them.) cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 02:14, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

Roger

Roger is listed as family on the portal, I'm assuming this is because Ben is his son. The problem Ben was not on the plane, so I see no reason for him to be in the family section, unless I missed the part where he had a family member on the plane. I'm going to move him to acquaintances. Blender83 02:00, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Can you point to where it says "family members of 815 passengers"? Because I certainly don't see that rule, at least until you made it up. I'm moving him back because it's just for family members. No other qualifications besides existing in both timelines. --Golden Monkey 13:25, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with GMonkey if we do make a rule for family which as of now we dont have it should be for family of main characters. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  14:00, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
Then by this logic shouldn't Pierre be moved to the family section too? --SuperJar 18:46, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, he's family of a main character. --Golden Monkey 05:18, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Mary Ford and Mr Ford

Should they not be added to the family section of the portal? --SuperJar 18:01, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • They aren't actually alt characters. They are characters that have the same exact history in both timelines. --Orhan94 17:20, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • Agree with Orhan, there's no difference between them and the original versions.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:16, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • There's no difference between AltChristian and OriginalChristan that we know of, are there, yet he's still on the portal... So why not include the Fords just for completeness' sake? --LeoChris 19:24, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
    • Well besides having a grandchild (David Shephard) and having a better relationship with his son and went to Australia for reasons different than fighting with Jack (Margo didn't seem at all angry at Jack) his body and coffin were lost by Oceanic Airlines. There are some differences as you can see. Unlike him Warren and Mary Ford lived their lives the same in both timelines. So they aren't alt characters. --Orhan94 23:48, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
    • The rules for inclusion in this portal are "This portal shows the characters shown in the flash-sideways, depicting an alternate path where Oceanic Flight 815 lands safely in Los Angeles. The characters shown also appeared in the original timeline." They are characters who have appeared in both the original and flash-sideways timelines so should be included. --SuperJar 23:17, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support They're family, they belong here. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 00:14, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
    • Please can somebody add them? I would, but I don't know how. --SuperJar 22:38, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't think they should be listed here. Jdray 02:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
  • Well i think the should be added and the description changed to "characters that appear in both timelines" of which Mary and Warren are the only two missing --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 11:07, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
    • Also there IS a difference. Their death in the AR led Sawyer down a path to become a cop to find the man responsible. In the OR he took the path of a conman because of what happened to his parents. Furthermore it's likely Anthony Cooper was not the man responsible for their deaths in the AR --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 11:11, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
      • Okay, you have a point with the Cooper thing, though I don't think I agree with the Sawyer part (but it is just my opinion). Seeing as the Cooper arc exists in alt too if it's confirmed that something was different we will keep them permanently and create articles for them, till then we'll keep them here without articles. If the season ends without resolving the Cooper thing we'll put it to a vote, if it ends with a resolution we'll act based on it (if he didn't con them we'll create articles and keep them here). --Orhan94 16:02, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
        • Didn't they die a year later in the flash-sideways timeline? In the OT they died when Sawyer was 8 and in the FST they died when he was 9. --SuperJar 20:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
          • That was just a cont. error. --Orhan94 00:22, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
            • Are we 100% sure it was a cont. error? Not to turn this into a Why hasn't Pierre aged kind of thing, but lots of minor details are different in the flash-sideways ... do we even have a formal knowledge as to when the split occurs? --LeoChris 03:00, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Sun

Can we really consider her to be unknown? The last time we saw her she was still alive and was not in immediate danger of dying. We can't just make every character who was last seen injured an unknown. InflatableBombshelter 19:33, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

  • I agree she should not be listed as unknown. The last time we saw her she was alive and talking. Jdray 21:48, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Keamy and Mikhail

Why are Keamy and Mikhail listed as "unknown?" I guess we didn't TECHNICALLY see Keamy die, but Mikhail was clearly shot in the head (and the eye). Pretty sure the guy's dead. Gefred7112 02:52, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

  • I agree that they should not be listed as unknown. Jdray 01:19, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Pierre and Miles

If we're counting Miles as "co-worker" since he wasn't on oceanic 815, then should Pierre be listed under family? I was under the impression the family heading was for family members of Oceanic 815 passengers.

It was decided that it was family of the main cast not the 815 passengers. That's why Roger is there too. Rachel P 08:28, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Contact with original timeline

Since Happily Ever After started the awakening of latent memories and this appears to be the point of them now, I think there should be a portal for characters who are recognizing their original timeline. I don't know how to do it, what color it should be (possibly green since it is as close to the island as they'll get without scuba gear), or what the short title for it would be but that's my suggestion. Desmond, Daniel, Libby, Hurley, Charlie, and Eloise thus far.--Mooses05 16:07, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Also Claire to an extent, as she instinctively called the baby Aaron --SuperJar 16:34, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
If we do this I suggest yellow (an unused color) as green would just confuse people. I don't think it is really nessesary though. Rachel P 08:28, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Order?

  • It is my understanding that the category a character belongs to is decided in relation to his relationship(s) with main characthers, correct? Hence why Roger is listed as a family member, among other things. However... it just seems weird. I mean, Shannon is a main character and is listed as a family member because of Boone. By that logic, shouldn't Boone be listed as a family member because of Shannon? The same logic applies to other sections, isn't Locke Ben's co-worker? Now, I get the page's intent, I'm just pointing out what appears, to me anyway, to be a logical flaw. I'd propose making a section, on top of the page listing the main characters, disregarding their passenger status, and then complete the other sections with the rest of the characters. (Oceanic Flight 815 passengers & crew would become something like Other Oceanic (...)) I'm sure this idea will be met with some opposition, but I'm just not sure the current organisation of the page is the best one. --LeoChris 19:52, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
    • I brought up this issue weeks ago after Dr Linus aired. I didn't understand why Roger was in family, so I moved him to acquaintances and started a discussion on this page if I'd missed some rule. (see previous discussion on Roger) Several people voted for relationship to main cast, not relationship to 815 passengers, determines where characters belong to on the portal. I agree with what you're proposing. The first section of the portal should dictate where other characters fall in the other sections. The order should be main characters, 815 passengers and crew, family, co-workers.... Blender83 11:53, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • I agree with this. One big portal for all main characters in the flash-sideways, then non-main 815 passengers & crew, family, co-workers, and acquaintances. --Golden Monkey 04:56, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't know who changed the order to main, supporting and minor cast based on the original timeline portals, but fair play. It's better than my previous suggestion!Blender83 00:01, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Sun/John

They should be changed to alive, no?--Sciencevsfaith 12:28, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

  • Agree. Jdray 15:15, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

3 episodes rule

It seemed to be uncontroversially revived when David appeared in 3 episodes, but then Cyzgan came along and deleted him. So, should we again have the 3 episode rule for characters not seen in the ot? It is highly unlikely this will impact anyone except David. And I Pictogram voting support.--Golden Monkey 05:35, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting support I also thought this rule was agreed upon from the very start, the only reason why it wasn't mentioned on the actual article until now is because it didn't impact it anyway (then). --LeoChris 06:09, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support Keep rule cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 15:04, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Merging

These all need to be merged with their main articles now, am I right? InflatableBombshelter 04:46, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The argument being that there was not a flash sideways timeline at all. So there were no flash-sideways characters. This was simply the afterlife of the same characters we have been watching since day 1. ? Jdray 04:56, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • What about, say, David for example, though? --LeoChris 04:58, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • It's open to interpretation to whether or not David was even real. Locke said to Jack "You don't have a son."--HaloOfTheSun 05:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
I thought it was clear, this whole "universe" was made so the survivors could be together in the after life. David was a small device used to bring the survivors together. When Locke said Jack didnt have a son he meant he didnt have a son simple. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  05:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
What I meant was where would we list David on Lostpedia if we were to merge the FST and OT articles together. Not ``Did David exist?`` --LeoChris 05:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
He was in five episodes right? so supporting portal, just because he didnt exist doesnt mean hes not a character, hes still a character just one of the afterlife. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  05:57, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Yep. No reasons for them all the have different articles anymore. Just put it under an "afterlife" heading in the main articles. Zazaban 19:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
They're just the same characters after they're dead. As for David, why not create a category for characters that only appeared in the flash-sideways? Omer's kids and various bit parts would be able to go under it. --Golden Monkey 20:50, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I created a new article that might work better, Afterlife Characters. I'm hoping to put all of the characters who have ever appeared in the show after their death, whether in the flash sideways, or as a ghost. Johnlanigan 23:34, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I suggest that the timelines be merged, with the former FST articles attached to the end of each character's timeline, since it is what happened after their death. For characters such as David, I think there should be a new color in the portal (i.e. deceased, on island, etc.) that indicates characters that are nonexistent.--Codeetom 23:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • I see no problem with that, kind of like a portal for all characters who appear in fbs or ffs. But we need to get rid of alternate character portals and pgs, Jack from the afterlife is the same as the Jack that was on the island. Two different portals and pgs for the same character is just dumb. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  23:41, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Who do we talk to to get the flashsideways pages, except for characters who only appear then, such as David Shephard and Nadia's kids, deleted? Imo it should be done as soon as possible. InflatableBombshelter 00:08, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • 100% agreed idk what the sysops are doing as of now, but IMO having the two pages is confusing and incorrect, needs to be fixed asap. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  00:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • We're currently discussing changes. Please take into account that character articles would be extremely long if the articles were merged, causing potential practical problems with page loading, etc. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  01:59, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
I understand but we should go with being accurate over load problems and being accurate is having one pg. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  02:45, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Well yeah, I mean, can't we try it, see if there's any actual load problems and then come up with a solution if the need arises? --LeoChris 02:52, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
the only thing i'm thinking is that if, for some reason, we keep two separate pages for say, "Jack" and "Flash-Sideways Jack", then we need to have two separate pages for "Man in Black (pre-smokey)" and "Man in Black (smokey)". arguably, one could say that since the flash-sideways the "afterlife" or whatever you want to call it, that's just Jack's soul and not his body. well, so is the Smoke Monster. he's just the Man in Black's soul. so we'd need to have two articles. Bassrockindrew 19:35, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Moved On

  • I suggest we add a new color, perhaps Yellow, to indicate people who Moved On in the church. SLRibs 20:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • I honestly think we should get rid of the colors all together. Everyone's dead. It doesn't make sense for it to show some of them as dead, and some of them on the mainland. They are all technically dead. And you can't be dead in the afterlife. So how can Mikhail, Keamy and Omar be dead in the afterlife? Same thing that happened to Christian will probably happen to them. Everyone should be listed as deceased if anything. Johnlanigan 22:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

NO NOT EVERYBODY IS DEAD

We are fooled into that concept of everybody's dead by Jack's reward. He is seeing his death in 2004 when really died in 2007. he is being given the gift of a life fulfiiled. His father was no wise, loving parent. He was a hateful, sloppy drunk. Jack redeemed them all. His action of extinguishing the flame ended Mother's rule. How do we know this? 1) The new "jacob" is Hugo, an infinitely more powerful being than Jacob. He who speaks with the dead is a person that mortality cannot touch. You know when he plays chess and the pieces move by themselves that he has achieved a higher state. His work in the world beyond the island is done. There is no place for him in the world of LA X. And he is not jacob. The flame that Jack lit was Hugo's. He held the fire all the time. But Mother and her children would have destroyed that Fire. He was the one above corruption. 2) Hume's refusal to answer Mrs. Widmore's question: I believe Hume said not this time. In other words, how many times must Faraday die. He is the author of all this, culminating in the concert. Hume is also saying that Charles and Eliose have ceased to have any importance. This is Daniel's last word to his mother. The concert is the culmination of the sideways world for Daniel. He has prepared Jack for his mission. Even Jack's son is an illusion to provide him fulfillment as a parent. His last patient is a miracle. Faraday has tried to give Jack some joy. 3) The sideways world exists because of the energy from the island. when Mother's light was extinguished. the sideways world became real. the energy from the island has been converted. E=mcsquared. 4) Ben is outside the church because he must return to the island to protect it. He is the King of trees and deserted houses.--The mortal veil 23:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Dude you need to re-watch the finale, there is no sideways world, its purgatory. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  22:58, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

The sideways world is only purgatory if you consider real life to purgatory. It may be. Marriage, children, jobs -- all may be considered purgatory. Christian Sheepherd is no more a prophet than Charles Widmore. He is a figment of Faraday's conjuring. Hume calls Jack. Hume picks up a coffin. It's all for Jack's benefit, the happy death. The reality is that Ben in his endless machinations taught Jack one thing. "Thomas is not remembered for his bravery, but for his doubt. You have chosen courage. I have chosen doubt. That's why I cannot enter. Look at us, you saved us all. I killed so many people for a good that never existed. You gave up your life, and you saved us all" I would liked that ending.

Let me even more offensive. Hurley is the male vicar just as the Llamas and the Popes and Patriachs of the Orthodox faiths and the Chief Rabbis. No women. God is male. 

In the Gospel, there is a rich young man who comes to Jesus. What must I do to be saved? You must give up what you have , leave your family, follow me. The rich young man turns away. My opinion is that this figure represents the Buddha. (transcendental, not historical) Outside the scripture, the young man realizes that he has no choice. He has seen the suffering. He has the gate (the Christ) Hurley is the Buddha . The male demi-god who has taken the place of mother. Ben is Napoleon who ends as the king of deserted kingdom. His two subjects, Rose and Bernard have no regard for him. Jack joins Faraday as a shadow who appears, mumbles a few words, and guides the world. There are those who believe that the goodness of 10 to 20 people prevent the destruction of the world. Their acts and their prayers are secret and separate. Faraday through Jack saved the world.

i end with this question. How come Hugo never lost any weight? he would have needed at least 7,000 calories a day to maintain his weight. Hugo had no place in the "real" world. Even Jacob was in awe of Hurley's power.

This page should be kept because the creators of the show meant for each individual viewer to formulate their own conclusion. Some believe they lived, some think they died. It is up to each person's personal beliefs. The page about the sideways world should be kept.Buechler 02:22, May 25, 2010 (UTC) Bu.

  • while i totally agree that they intended on leaving stuff up to our own interpretation, they kind of went out of their way to make Christian "johnny the explainer" and explicitly tell Jack that everything that ever happened to them actually happened to them. i don't think the writers would say that the most important period of their lives was the 6 hours they spent together not talking to each other on a plane. he said that THIS (the flash sideways) was the place they created together. the people who believe that they died in the crash need to explain to me how they had two dream worlds, one in which they crashed and continued to live their lives, and one in which they didn't crash and continued to live their lives. you can't have all three. you have to pick two. and the only way you can pick two is if you rule out the "they all died in the crash" version, because otherwise you're claiming that the characters didn't experience one of the two things that we were shown, and did experience the only outcome we weren't shown. so once you're down to two realities, you come to the natural conclusion that the flash sideways was the afterlife/purgatory/fake/dream/made-up reality because Christian the explainer said so, and the producers said that they wouldn't end the show with making the whole thing a dream. thus, the flash sideways IS a reality they made up after they all died, making them the same characters and allowing us to merge all articles like the regular Jack and the sideways Jack. the thing thats open for interpretation is if the sideways was a dream or if it was purgatory or whatever, AND what exactly happened to them afterwards (were they reborn in the source? did they go to heaven? did they cease to exist entirely? did they start the whole thing over?) but we know that it wasn't a real existence. Bassrockindrew 10:26, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Keep this page

I think this portal should be kept as it is. It's nice to be able to see all the characters who appeared in the other timeline in one place. Maybe the articles on each character could be merged, but I think the portal should stay, it isn't harming anyone by staying. --SuperJar 23:16, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Agree: The page organizes the characters that appear post-death and it allows a place for David Shephard.--Edible8 23:26, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
Agree: But, I think we should change the name to "Afterlife Characters". Lapidus7 00:44, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Aaron and Ji Yeon

i don't think that Aaron and Ji Yeon moved on with everyone else. they were figments just like David was. the way i see it, and this is just my interpretation, is everyone who was not in the church during the final scene, plus Aaron, Ji Yeon, and Christian, were all figments of their imaginations. the fact that other people probably don't agree with me, and some people probably do, points to the fact that we can't encyclopedia-ize this, which is why i think we should do away with it and merge everything. Bassrockindrew 03:31, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

  • But Aaron was in the church with the others and he also existed in the original timeline, which indicates, well to me at least, that he also moved on. Ji Yeon is a bit more open to debate --SuperJar 23:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • We don't know how far into the future the sideways universe is. Kate could have died in her eighties, which might mean that Aaron and Ji Yeon would be in their 50's, if they survived. I recommend they are unknown as we have no idea of how they are when the survivors created this universe.
    • I don't think Christian would say that the most important time of Aaron's life were the 100-some odd days he spent as an infant with a bunch of people he probably doesn't remember. for all we know, Kate was pregnant when she died, so we'd have to list her unborn baby as well. plus, Aaron didn't exist in the sideways until he was born. i really feel like he's as much a figment in this universe (or whatever you want to call it) as David.Bassrockindrew 03:31, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
      • First of all I think the justification for Aaron being there could be the 3 years he spent with Kate (and Jack) and the rest of his life with Kate, Claire, and possibly Sawyer, and any of the other living castaways. He could have also met Ji Yeon since Sun implied this way back in season five. Anyway, what counts is a body being present in the church so if he is there he is "there". Ji Yeon is debatable, we cannot be certain that Ji Yeon is really "there" even with the ultrasound. She could still be in Purgatory.--Edible8 22:31, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
        • yes... but would he really remember himself as an infant? do YOU even remember yourself as an infant? he wasn't even the age he was when he was WITH Kate. i think one of the fatal assumptions people are making about this afterlife is that it's something that happens to every character in the lost universe. like Frank. did Frank have to do this in order to "move on" to the afterlife? i'd think he'd have had a pretty special connection with these guys, since he saved their lives, and i'd be willing to be that he spent time with Sawyer, Claire and Kate once off the island. i personally believe that this was something special just for these characters. i could obviously be entirely wrong, but people are applying too many rules for this "afterlife", going so far as actually labeling it the afterlife. i think that everyone that wasn't in the church, plus Ji Yeon and Aaron, were figments of their imagination, including Ana Lucia. if Ana Lucia wasn't ready yet, when would she be? wouldn't people be questioning the absence of several people in their universe? wouldn't Miles wonder why his parter is suddenly missing? wouldn't David need to find his parents? wouldn't the rest of Drive Shaft file a missing persons report about Charlie? and then, of course, there's the multi-millionaire and two fugitives. that universe probable ended as soon as that bright light engulfed everyone in the church, and i doubt that that would mean Ana Lucia is left not being able to move on. Desmond's comment was probably just to say that she's not actually there. if this sort of purgatory has to happen for everyone, Ana Lucia probably had to do it with her mom. but i don't think it did. in any case, for all we know, the entire flash-sideways could've been Jack's dream. it may have been no more real than Dave or the magic box. but i don' think that Aaron had to remember himself being born to be able to move on in the afterlife.

Shark

I added the shark to the portal because it appeared in both timelines, but it's mainly meant to be a bit of a laugh. If people don't want it there feel free to get rid of it... --SuperJar 13:57, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

What To DO

Naturally, it should be re-labeled as "Afterlife Characters" but kept. Purgatory is a useful analogy but a far from perfect one, in that the purpose of this afterlife beyond all space & time is that of a transitional phase, in which people can work through and let go of "issues" from their corporeal existences. So, what we've seen are the main characters dealing with very similar situations that were defining to their "real-life" development, but the tables are turned a little, in that they have made sacrifices, are a little wiser, and are better-adjusted -- perhaps, a measure of lessons learned in life.

Purgatory might be more akin to where Michael is as a whisper on the Island, where he is not allowed to move on, at least not until some amount of debt is paid. Perhaps, Eko's in the same boat, but then how to we reconcile Hurley's previous encounters with him, Charlie, Ana Lucia, etc.?

In any event, what happens in this transitional phase off the Island is that Desmond — who always said, "see you in another life ..." — and to a degree Libby are expediting the reconciliation process, as special bridges, reflective it might be presumed, of the extraordinary circumstances surrounding Flight 815, Jacob and The Island in their lives. (Rose & Bernard may be bridges, too) In addition, the various characters in this respect are colliding in their afterlives, even without Desmond, to an extent.

But what to do to, with all of the ancillary characters that inhabit this afterlife?

Christian Shepherd is or probably more likely has already moved on, and in this instance, he is the group guide or shepherd through the valley of death. I can't reconcile his every Island manifestation with being MiB.

At the opposite extreme are those that we see dying in the afterlife; they would be "The Damned".

Some are not ready to move, and should be labeled as "Remaining".

  • Unknowingly would be Ana Lucia, probably Miles, Daniel, Ilana, Pierre, Charlotte, and maybe Helen, Alex, Ethan, Danielle, Minkowski, Charles W. and others, who are simply not ready
  • Knowingly would, of course, include Ben, who has more to work out, and possibly Eloise, who is a bridge, too.

No one would be a figment. Like Harry Potter at King's Cross, it may or may not be in their heads — whatever that means for dead people — but that doesn't make it any less real.

Someone like David S., who did not evidently exist in "real life," is definitely "Unknown" but might be considered something of an angelic proxy. I would also put Aaron and Ji Yeon in this category, even as they are present at the church, in that moving on there makes no sense as part of their own transition, as persons who lived to old age, but rather they are maybe more comparable to Christian.

Any variety of others seen in this after life, and also or not in the "real life" part of the show, are problematic. Maybe they are Unknown ... serving potentially as instruments in the afterlife for the sake of others, or they are there as part of their own afterlife and, even for 815 passengers like Arzt, are crossing paths in this next world, but do not share the same connection as those in the church. --Man-of-the-Wold 19:18, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of Afterlife Characters Page

Why did someone delete that page and reroute it to this page???? Those pages were not the same thing! And whoever deleted it, deleted it without any discussion with other users whatsoever! Johnlanigan 19:59, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Seems wierd, obviously a sysop cuz no one else could? -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:24, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Broken links

Most links on the page are now broken, somebody please fix them! --LOST-Malachi 19:23, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Kate's Picture

I dont know WHAT is going on with Kate's hair in her FST pic...Ocie14 02:21, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you propose an alternative for us to vote on. Mhtm ghnd....talk 05:08, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • How about the one where she is holding Aaron right after Claire gave birth?
      • Pictogram voting oppose Picture should be of just Kate, not Aaron too.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  18:09, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
        • We could crop it, or I could find a different one. Ocie14 02:03, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
          • The picture is uniform with the others. It's pretty ridiculous that it should be changed because of her hair. --Pexxoum 02:22, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
            • What episode is it from? Ocie14 14:57, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Change categories

Moved on / not ready's all well and good for main characters. But it doesn't make sense for the rest. Carmen isn't ready to move on? What exactly is she waiting for? Randy? Lynn? Jack's Mom will move on eventually, but she's still waiting for someone to remind her of her time on the island?
The main characters created this world to meet and remember their time on the island. We can't say that people like Roger are people at, much less that they're "not ready" to move on. We needn't describe them here as projections, as I call them. But we also mustn't call them real people.
We also shouldn't call characters deceased. They're all deceased. Keamy and Omar evidently didn't actually die - indeed, they didn't exist at all. --- Balk Of Fametalk 02:18, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

  • The idea that the other people in the FST weren't real is a popular theory, but there are a lot of people who don't buy it. Personally, I'm fine with the idea that this was the real afterlife for everyone, but I won't go into the details here. So I think it's a mistake to remove the term "deceased" under the argument that they aren't real people. If it helps, think of the term deceased as meaning we saw their "projection" or whatever die. As for "Not ready", I agree that the term is sub-optimal. How would you feel about "Staying behind"? It's at least accurate come the end of the show: whether they're real or not, they not moving on.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  14:56, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

David is minor character?

Last time I saw this page, David was listed as supporting character. I saw this few days ago and I found David is listed as minor character. Why did this change? And one more thing I can't understand is, Aaron is in supporting character section. I think David was more important than Aaron in FST (David appeared many time - Aaron, only two time). So tell me the reason please! - SunHwa:D talk blog contribs 13:48, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

  • The classification as minor or supporting refers to the total number of appearances of the character in the series, not only the flash-sideways. David's episode count was the center of a small controversy following the airing of The End (depending on the episode's cut-off point, going into part 2, David's count could have been pushed up to 5... but this has since been proven not to be the case.), this, perhaps could explain why he was once listed as supporting. Aaron's episode count is obviously way above the 5 episodes cap, and therefore qualifies as supporting. --LeoChris 05:24, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

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