Talk: Meet Kevin Johnson/Theories

Organisation

Who organized the Theory page this way? I don't like it because it doesn't really permit thinking outside the box and promotes the discussion we don't want there.--Chuck 21:10, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

• I wonder if it would be better to lock the theory page for a week, leaving only the discussion page open for debate. That way, after a week when everyone has "calmed down", theories can be moved from the talk page to the main article. This would stop all the in-article bickering that isn't supposed to be there. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:06, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• God no! That's not very wiki style! you don't just lock pages cuz the information is getting out of control. most of the theories come the first week, and I, as well as everyone else would like to read them during that week. why not just come by after a week when everything "calms down" and remove the ones that don't make sense? many people do that. --CharlieReborn 04:12, 21 March 2008 (PDT)
  • I really don't have a vested interest on this page, but regard the above comment, wikipedia is far more of a dictatorship than lostpedia. Those guys are nazis over there.
• Alternatively, put a banner at the top of the theory page that more explicitly states what is expected. For example, something like this:

When posting a theory, please provide support for your theory and include references (if available). If you disagree with a theory, DO NOT begin a discussion on the theory page. Copy the theory to the discussion page for this theory and explain your disagreement below a copy of the theory there. Alternatively, you can post your own seperate theory (with support and references) on this theory page.

This addresses both the discussion issue and the wild speculation issue. I might even add a simple example such as:

"Ben is really a dog," is not a theory. This would be a theory: "Ben is really a dog. In the first scene of [insert reference to episode page] we see a tail sticking out of his pants and in [later episode] we see him chewing on a bone." --Chuck 08:06, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• One would think that the box on the right would be sufficient for people to read and understand :\ -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:51, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• Clearly, it is not sufficient given the insanity that occurs right after each episode. A banner across the top would be far more effective.--Chuck 17:05, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• I also think the theory page should not be locked for a week, because most of the theories come during the first week. I think we should just do our best to keep the page clean and useful. --Salvora 07:03, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

Dear everyone. I believe the division of the theory page in "geographic/time" blocks (On the freighter, on the island, and Flashback) should disappear. The reason for this is that some of the questions that the theories address do not regard any of the 3 blocks. For instance, consider theories that would address why Libby appears to Michael: Libby appears to Michael both in Manhattan but also on the freighter, so where would one post a theory about this? Consider another example: theories regarding whether the people on the boat really intend to kill everyone on the island or not. This is an issue that does not pertain to any of the 3 blocks: this is discussed by Locke, Ben, Miles, Claire & cia in Ben's house; but it's also an issue Michael is struggling with while he is on the freighter; and it is also to do with Michael's flashback, for this is what Tom tells Michael in the hotel room in Manhattan. In turn, this would also be a topic that does not pertain to any of the three blocks or sections in which this theory article is divided. I think this division is not useful insofar as some themes run across the episode at different points in time and different places. I propose to do without it. --Salvora 06:59, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

Discussion moved from Theory page for not following the rules

I've moved the following from the theory page because it's full of questions and debate, none of which follows the rules. Feel free to repost on the theory page in the proper format. I've replaced some of it already. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:11, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

On the freighter

• What is Michael really doing in the engine room?
  • Pretending like he doesn't know what happened to the engines and is trying to help fix them.
  • Sabotaging the engines.
• What is the significance of the numbers Michael uses to try to set off the bomb?
  • No significance, they were just the numbers he was told to use to detonate the bomb.
    • The lack of significance is a clue that the bomb is a fake.
      • Are we sure the bomb is fake, or were the numbers he used supposed to trigger the message, while another set of numbers arms the bomb?
        • The bomb was a test to see if Michael is willing to kill these people. Now that Ben knows he is, he explains that not everyone on the freighter needs to die, only the bad ones.
        • Who does Ben consider good and bad?"
• Two of the numbers were "77" - the code to detonate the C4 attached to the communications station (Mikhail's place) was "77" as seen in the episode Enter 77.
• Why does Lapidus think that the Flight 815 crash site was planted? What made him believe this so strongly?
  • Remember in "Confirmed Dead" he noticed on the television that the image of the pilot wasn't really the actual pilot.
• The Island is inducing the suicides of Regina and others on the boat -- Michael didn't need to blow up the boat and kill the innocents.
• Sayid ratted Michael out since he knows that Michael is unable to eliminate these people. This is how Ben becomes aware of Sayid's ruthless killing abilities "for the greater good".
  • Sayid's apparent ruining of Ben's/Michael's plan will - as Ben claims - result in the death of any number of people on the island. This is the event Ben refer's to when stitching Sayid up at the end of 'The Economist' and is also a key factor in Sayid's eventual employment by Ben.

Oceanic Six

• The promo showed all of the Oceanic Six and Aaron was shown.

• Michael is not one of the Six.
  • This is proven when his own mother says that she has to call them different names. This suggests that in the future other survivors may make it off and go under different names.

On the Island

• • • Yea, not only to mention that a few episodes ago that Lapidus and a few other Freighters had an "errand" to do.--Bluesubburbban 20:36, 20 March 2008 (PDT)
      • On Franks first mission he took some Freighter folk to the island.
        • Could possible be Keamy and the other men that were shooting clay pigeons on the freighter in the flashback
          • Whoever it is seems to have little experience with firearms. I don't think the people on the freighter would send someone to kill people on the island if that person didn't have any experience with firearms.

• • • Why?
      • Karl has a very apparent gunshot wound through the chest. Rousseau did not have a visible, potentially fatal wound.
        • Is "gunshot" the right word? There was no audible gunfire.
          • Could of been arrows, pellets, or a silenced weapon.
          • Sniper fire is from usually so far away that you do not hear the gunshot (especially if it is silenced). You only see the hit and hear the damage done by the bullet.
            • But the bushes were rustling, the "shooter" couldn't be far away.
              • Could of been a distraction.
                • The shooter(s) closed in on Alex after Danielle and Karl were down. They knew they needed her alive.
    • Karl had a gun wound in his heart.
    • Rousseau is smart and might feel the best way to help her daughter is to "play dead" for now.
    • I believe that Damon and Carlton have said that they need to explore/tell Rousseau's backstory. I am banking on not dead.
    • Rousseau cannot be dead because we haven't yet learned her true identity.
      • Rousseau is not dead yet. But her wounds may eventually kill her.
        • Agree. We'll probably see a flashback of hers in the next couple of episodes. In her flashback episode she will die.
    • Karl was shot with a low-powered weapon. The bullet only punctured one side of his canteen. Additionally, the bullet did not shatter the canteen as a large caliber gun would have.
  • Why does Ben say he wouldn't kill innocent people, when he gassed the Dharma Initiative?
    • Perhaps because he knew that none of the Dharma people were on Jacob's list.
      • That doesn't real answer the question.
        • Ben killing the dharma members has nothing to do with jacob's list, I think he killed them because: A) He wanted to leave Dharma and join the natives on the island; B) He stumbled upon some sort of information telling him Dharma was involved in some unethical/messed up science and had to exact revenge (maybe?)
      • Ben ALWAYS lies!
    • Ben feels it is his duty to protect the island, and Dharma hardly had the island's best interest at heart.
    • Technically, Ben only killed his father.
    • Maybe he didn't consider anyone in Dharma innocent.
• Is there something you are not telling us?
  • You figured it out! Ben is going to be a grandpa!
    • Right before the scene where Ben tells Alex, Karl and Danielle to go to the Temple, we see Karl and Alex looking at Aaron and smiling. Karl then puts his arm around Alex and Alex grabs her belly.
    • When Ben tells Alex that they will use her to get him, Alex looks at her, says "Maybe he's right," and then looks at her midsection.
• Why does Rousseau reluctantly agree with Ben with his decision to get Alex to the Temple?
  • Because she believe the people on the boat are coming to kill everyone on the island after they get Ben, like he said.
  • She was weary that it was a setup by Ben, which it very well might have in order to get rid of the two people that were most likely to take Alex out of Ben's life.

Flashback

• How did Tom get off the island and to New York?
  • The submarine or another boat.
• When did Tom go to see Michael?
  • Tom isn't shown to be on the island between days 71-72 and 75-78. The larger gap (75-78) may be ample time to get to Fiji and then fly to NY, (possibly by private jet, assuming The Others can afford that) see Michael, and return. There is not necessarily only one or two vehicles off the island, and obviously there are contacts OFF of the island who could procure things like boats and planes, just in case some jerk blows up a submarine. So, Tom was there sometime between December 1, 2004 and December 8, 2004.
  • Tom time traveled like Desmond.
    • He appeared in almost every episode from season 3 with the others. The submarine was the only way off and Locke blew it up less than a week after Michael left.
    • Locke supposedly blew up the sub on Day 81. The sub may not be the only way off the Island.
    • It's a stretch, but Desmond's sailboat is still available for use somewhere.
    • Time travel has been clearly explained as being in the consciousness only, NOT physical.
  • Between Day 68 and Day 93.
• Why is Michael seeing Libby? And why is Libby's hair short, much shorter than when he shot her?
  • Guilt over what he did; it is his conscience.
    • Why is he not then seeing Ana Lucia?
  • Her hair is shorter because they didn't think it was necessary for a wig (like Boone last season).
  • Smoke monster taking the form of Libby. You can hear whispers before she appears to him on the boat.
    • Even in the hospital?
      • That seemed like just a normal dream/nightmare.
    • The "whispers" sounded like the song "It's Getting Better" by Mama Cass Elliot, featured earlier in the episode.
    • If you listen closely, you can also hear that hooting/whooping sound the monster makes very faintly, just after the music fades.
• Why is the Island preventing Michael from killing himself?
  • Because he needs to kill the people on the boat and save the Island
  • Sayid survived a gunshot wound after leaving the island. Maybe everyone who leaves the island becomes invincible.
    • We have been led to believe it is an islander that is in the Coffin. This wouldn't jive.
      • The obituary mentions someone from New York who has a name that begins and ends unlike anyone's name we know so far.
        • Michael's mother mentioned that they couldn't use their real names anymore. Possibly the name in the paper is Walt's name after leaving the island
          • How would they not be able to properly identify Michael or Walt with dental records or fingerprints? The Widmore/Linus superpowers control these things as well?
          • Who wants to ID Michael or Walt? They would only do that after one of them died and IF they had a reason to. If Michael died as Kevin Johnson, why would anyone doubt it?
        • Michael still has work to do and therefore the Island is preventing him from killing himself or dying. This is why Jack can't make himself jump because he most likely knows that it will do nothing to end his life from the torment. The man/woman in the coffin is someone we know and had most likely finished their "work" and therefore they can kill themselves or die, they no longer have the Islands protection.
          • Perhaps this also explains how Locke got shot and didn't die.
  • It was a setup by Tom to make it seem that way to Michael - the gun was rigged. Surviving the accident was chance.
    • Tom knew the exact moment Michael was going to enter a pawn shop AND he knew which pawn shop AND that he would buy a gun to kill himself AND he would do it in some remote alley AT a specific time???
      • Not that complicated. Clearly Michael was being followed by Tom (and possibly more of Ben's people), so they knew he bought a gun and what kind. During their fight, Tom took away Michael's gun. When Tom gave it back, he gave him a similar gun that wouldn't fire and told him to try and kill himself. Ben's people are nothing if not resourceful; I think this is hardly the most complex thing they've pulled off.
        • And what if Michael had bought a different gun? He would have a similar one of those too?
        • This is way too silly and complicated. It's simpler and more rational (in terms of the show) to believe the Island wants to keep Michael alive because it needs him.
          • How is "the Island willed the gun to not fire" more rational than "Tom rigged/swapped the gun"? Even if it is "the Will of the Island", is it so unreasonable to suggest that Tom did this acting as an agent of the Island?
• When Ben gave Jacob Michael/Kevin's list of frieghter people who did Jacob determine to be innocent and not? Jdray 22:23, 20 March 2008 (PDT)
• Who is the man who shared Michaels hospital room? They probably had him in the scene for some reason...
  • He looked like Kelvin
  • He was colourful method actor Christopher Walken

• It was Christmas time when Michael visited his mother's house, and currently on the freighter, it is around Christmas time. This is because when in the proximity of the Island (or on the Island), time is running slower. The Islands time is in the "near past" (or earlier) in relation to off-island time. That was the purpose of the calendar on the freighter, so they could keep track of the differences in time.
  • People tend to put up Christmas decorations just after Thanksgiving. It is very plausible that he was at his mother's house in the first week or so of December.

• The reason Michael could not shoot himself is because Tom swapped Michael's gun for one that does not fire.
  • Damon Lindelof stated that in this episode we would see why bearded Jack wasn't able to jump off the bridge, I doubt this has to do with Tom giving him a fake gun.
  • Also, how does Tom know what kind of gun Michael has -- and this doesn't explain Michael living through the car crash that should have killed him.

• What was written on the note Michael pinned on himself? It couldn't have been a simple "I love you" to Walt, it seemed like a pretty long note.

• Why do Michael and Walt have false names, and why have they not revealed anything about the Ocean 815 crash?

Who shot Alex, Danielle and Karl?

I've moved this from the theory page for being a discussion. --Salvora 06:07, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

• They are shot at by Mikhail, who survived again.
  • Once and for all, he is confirmed DEAD!
    • Oceanic 815 passengers also happened to be Confirmed Dead
      • Mikhail = Confirmed dead by the producers.
    • Long live Patchy.

Walt & Locke

I've moved this from the theory page for being questions and not theories. --Salvora 06:11, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

• So did Locke see the real Walt after he is shot by Ben into the pit full of Dharma Initiative remains ?
• If yes how did he get there ?

Alex

I've moved this from the theory page for being a discussion, and because as a theory, it's presented with highly inconclusive evidence. --Salvora 05:56, 23 March 2008 (PDT)

• Alex is pregnant.
  • The scene where Ben tells Alex, Karl and Danielle to go to the Temple opens with Alex and Karl looking at Aaron and smiling. Karl then puts his arm around Alex and Alex puts her hand over her belly.
    • It was actually over her waist, from behind.
  • Later in the same scene, Karl looks at Alex and says that Ben may be right and they should go. He then glances down at her mid-section.
    • Karl stood behind Alex. He could only get a good enough view of her shoulder from his angle. Not her mid-section.
  • The conversation just before Karl is shot has subtle hints about parenthood, secrets and living for more than just themselves.
    • The exact conversation was that Alex said "I know he doesn't want me to be hurt" to which Karl replies "at least we have something in common."
• If we were being prompted to speculate about Alex's pregnancy, their would be hints more tangible than glances at mid-sections and oblique references to parenting. Theories should be supported by substantial evidence; this one is not.

Many theories have "inconclusive" evidence -- in fact some are just downright nuts with no support at all. If the evidence was "conclusive" it would not be a theory, it would be a fact. I have put it back with the support and without the discussion (which was erroneous anyway). If someone wants to prove she is not pregnant, they can go ahead and add a separte theory or discuss it here. --Chuck 22:40, 23 March 2008 (PDT)

Miles and Libby theory

"Miles spoke to Libby beyond the grave. This is how he knows Michael's alias is false." Anyone else think this is a completely implausible theory? I think that Miles guessed that "Kevin" was not Michael's real name by how Michael seemed uncomfortable with answering to it and using it with George and Naomi. Michael is not a spy, and his reaction times were "off". I think that the Libby theory attaches too much knowledge to Miles lucky guess, and it should be removed as implausible. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:26, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

This is a thoeries page, it doesn't need to, and is actually better if it's not plausible. that's what makes a theory good! --CharlieReborn 04:14, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

Rule #3 (illogical or previously disproved) & Rule #5 (speculative and lacking any evidence to support arguments) would seem to apply here. They are not better if they are implausible; they are just annoying. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 04:39, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

That is so wrong. Wild and implausible specualtion is not what you want on the theory page. Wild and plausible speculation (with just the smallest amount of support) is great. -unsigned by CarlosG

• Yep, exactly. When "theories" are so far outside of any stretch of canon, to the point of contradicting it even, that they must be removed as nonsense. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:48, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

I think it's not implausible (for I think it's not "impossible"), but I think it's unlikely, and strong support is not provided. In turn, it's as likely as any other wild theory. I think it shouldn't be in the theory page in accordance with Rule #5.--Salvora 06:20, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

Second helicopter

"*There was only one helicopter on the boat. If Naomi's chopper crashed in the ocean... where did the other one come from?" I removed this theory, intending to move it to helicopter as a UA, when I realised that we don't know that there was only one on the boat. We see the boat after the first heli has already crashed. Therefore, we cannot assume there was only one, and in fact, should just take at face value there were two. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 05:14, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• The argument between Naomi and Frank about who flies first sort of implies that there is only one, but not definitively. Wikistoriographer 08:41, 21 March 2008 (PDT)
• not to mention that there is also only one helicoptor visable on the helipad while the ship is en rout to the island. Where else could one store a helicoptor on the frighter? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Idesin (talk • contribs) 2008-03-21T15:28:57.

• Okay, fair points. But are they likely to be answered on the show? My understanding is that UA are for questions likely to be answered, not writing flaws which belong under bloopers? -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:49, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• Point is we don't know if it's a blooper. we never saw the other heli. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CharlieReborn (talk • contribs) 2008-03-25T17:43:48.

Killing Everyone on the Island?

This got deleted as an unanswered question. I'm sorry, but it hasn't been answered yet.

In "The Other Woman", Daniel and Charlotte are disabling the Tempest's ability to gas the Island. Yet in this episode, "Meet Kevin Johnson", Miles confirms that they were to kill everyone after acquiring Ben. This is a contradiction among the Freighter team that can only be explained a couple of ways.

Why would Daniel and Charlotte go to the trouble of shutting down the Tempest? It wasn't doing anything anyway, so there's no need to shut it down. If they are going to turn around and reboot it after getting Ben (theoretically), then Ben can do the same thing. Their action only makes sense if they have gone "off the reservation" and decided not to continue the plan as Miles reveals it. However, if Miles is lying, then their action makes sense as they have explained it -- to prevent Ben from gassing anyone.

Why would Miles lie to the captives about gassing everyone if that wasn't a part of the plan? Miles is after his cash. Getting the Losties to follow Ben's lies gets him his money. So Miles simply plays along.

Bottom line -- if Miles is lying, then Daniel and Charlotte are not. But if Miles is telling the truth, then Daniel and Charlotte have thrown in with the people on the Island in a major way. Whether the Freighters or Ben is going to gas everyone on the Island is an unanswered question. Boloboffin 10:48, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

Miles works for Ben. That is why he didn't contradict Ben at the meeting. The other freighter folks might work for Ben too, but it is not yet clear. The freighter folks said they were there "for Ben" not to capture Ben or kill Ben. --Chuck 13:31, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• That doesn't work. Miles was extorting Ben not to tell his boss that Ben was alive. Therefore, Ben cannot be his boss, and Widmore, who owns the freighter, must be. It's the only thing that makes sense. Miles was lying to everyone because he's still believing that Ben can get him the money he wants, and agreeing with Ben, he thinks, is the best way to do that. The question is answered by the actions of Daniel and Charlotte. If they intended to kill everyone, they could have started with Kate and Juliet, as there'd be no reason not to kill them because they would die from the gas anyway. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:46, 21 March 2008 (PDT)

• I have thought about posting an unanswered question about whether or not the freighter group planned to kill everyone on the island and if so, how, but couldn't figure out how to phrase it. Miles appeared to confirm the mass-killing plan, but I can't imagine any other mass-murder scheme except poison gas that would effectively kill everyone without harming the island. Despite all the target practice in this episode, it's highly unlikely the group could hunt down and shoot everyone. There are too many places to hide. The "mass-murder" threat does not seem credible based on Charlotte and Daniel's actions.--Emily76 23:31, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

Sayid's defection... and illogical theory?

On the theory page: "Sayid has defected in an off-screen event we weren't shown yet." Whom is he defecting? It's not self-evident that turning Michael into Captain Gault involves "defecting" anybody... Michael is no longer one of the losties and was shown to be a traitor! This is an illogical theory: there is no logical reason to portray Sayid's act as "defection" --Salvora 14:24, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

Michael not the spy (aka, Ben's "man on the boat")

I'm wondering if Michael is not really Ben's spy on the boat. Yes, Michael was asked to get the names of people on the boat (which we haven't seen him give to Ben or Tom yet), but first and last names are a far cry from the biographical details that Ben has later. I'm guessing that the captain is the spy -- Michael was planted there to be the fall guy for the damage done to the boat.--PappyBlueRibs 11:28, 24 March 2008 (PDT)

I just assumed that Ben needed first and last names in order to collect a bigger profile and run checks himself once he had the names. Much like he would have done when Goodwin and Ethan got the names of the 815 lot. Mikay 11:39, 24 March 2008 (PDT)

Ben Lying Again

Ben tells Michael, "When I'm at war, I'll do everything I can to win, but I will not kill innocent people." Did it ever occur to anyone that he is the person who killed the entire DHARMA Initiative? (Excluding if there is a possiblity of survivors from the purge that we don't know about.) Where members of the DHARMA Initiative all not innocent, or are we supposed to take this as another lie? Marko 19:17, 24 March 2008 (PDT)

Michael's fate: a spoiler?

Apologies if I am incorrect; I am new. The following comment in the Michael's fate section feels a little spoilery to me. If not, at least the word "orbitury" needs to be corrected.

    *The producers have stated that said orbitury will have to be rewritten for 
    a later episode, but likely because they used the name stub "Jo[.. ..]antham"
    in it before they decided on Michael's alias Kevin Johnson.

Are podcasts generally considered authoritative for things like this? Did this information even come from a podcast? It just rubs me the wrong way. --thecooley|talk|cont 11:23, 26 March 2008 (PDT)

How could Widmore know that the plane crashed at the Island?

When Michael comes to Tom´s hotel room Tom explains to Michael that the wreckage in the news is a fake, staged by "a man named Widmore" to keep others from looking in the right place where the real plane crashed: the Island. How could Widmore know that the plane crashed at the Island? Even if Widmore has a spy among the Others he could not be contacted because communications were jammed. Or did Widmore stage the real crash? No, I think what Tom told Michael proves that Ben is behind the fake plane crash.--Nemo 01:46, 26 March 2008 (PDT)

I think that depends on a number of assumptions: 1) Widmore's spy can only contact Widmore through normal radio communications (if the Others can leave, why can't Widmore's spy?), 2) communications were jammed prior to or immediately upon the crash event (I don't think we know when Ben actually started jamming them), 3) the crash was truly an accident, and wasn't planned (If the crash was manipulated into happening by someone (Ben?) or something (the Island? Dharma?), it's quite possible that Widmore might have learned about the plans prior to communications being jammed. For that matter, what if Widmore had planned the crash, knowing that the electromagnetics/time-space manipulation/godlike powers of the Island would draw it in and help him locate the Island). Clamshell 14:01, 4 April 2008 (PDT)

I doubt it was planned. As I see it there are two possibilites: 1) Widmore faked it and he knew that the plane crashed there because he knows there's an Island around about where the plane went missing and is really making an assumption that the plane is on the Island or 2) Ben faked it and Widmore didn't know that the plane crashed there until he recovered the black box and realized it was all faked and then found out through spying and/or intimidation that Ben was behind it or assumed Ben was, thus he knew the plane must have crashed there. Based on Naomi and Abbadon's conversation in "Confirmed Dead", it seems like they knew for sure the flight crashed on the Island, so based on my scenarios it seems more likely that Ben faked the crash. And really, despite what Ben says about being the good guy, doesn't he have more of a reason to want to fake the crash? Of course, knowing Ben he probably came up with the idea and then manipulated Widmore into doing it so they both win but without Ben having to go through the trouble himself. --macosx 07:19, 5 April 2008 (PDT)

Clean-up

Removed from the theory page:

Part 1

• Keamy and Omar appear to be quite ruthless. If the Freighter people are on a mission that involves capturing people, but not killing everyone, then they would need to have people with military training, but not ruthless. But if their mission does involve exterminating everyone on the island, then they need to have people with military training and also ruthlessness (people with no moral bounds). Keamy and Omar seem to fit this description, while Naomi does not. Or, at least, they seem to fit this description better than Naomi did. The evidence so far is inconclusive as to whether they intend to kill everyone or not.
  • Inconclusive. It's not a theory, it's just a paragraph of random thoughts.
• Naomi came to the island injured and had to eventually radio a code to the freighter saying she was in trouble, so we never really got to see her "ruthless" side. Maybe a flashback is coming.
  • Responsive.
• From the encounter where Michael suggests to Keamy & Omar that they are on a rescue mission and they look at each other and laugh, it would appear most likely that they don't have good intentions for the survivors or any other inhabitants of the Island.
  • Obvious.
• Miles is in the meeting in which Ben says this, and he knows that it isn't true, but he also does not deny it.
  • Observation. Not a theory.
• He does this to see how things play out.
  • Responsive.
• And/or because he wants Ben to pay him the $3.2 million, and for that to happen, Ben has to remain free (so that he can collect the money).
  • Responsive. Obvious.
• Michael just needed to give a list of the bad ones to Ben so he could give it to Jacob/The Island. Now that he/it knows, it can kill the bad ones.
  • Incorrect.
• Ben wanted a list of all the people so he could find out who is bad and know his enemy in order to extort them.
  • Responsive. Non-Theory. Already told by the episode.
• Michael was instructed to disable the engines and radio to buy time for the Island to kill the boaties. Given enough time, the Island can kill them all or get them to commit suicide.
  • Illogical. Since when does the Island need time for anything?
• Regina was one of the "innocent" people, but she killed herself, possibly insane.
  • Speculative. Very.
• Frank, Daniel, and George are so far the only ones who haven't shown any sign of hostility to the Island inhabitants (including Losties) and have even helped them at some point.
  • Observation. Inconclusive. It's not a theory. We know all that.
• Ben may also be prolonging Michael's mission because he wants Michael to be discovered (as happened with Goodwin).
  • Stated as possibility. Illogical. If he still has "work to do", the Island won't let him die anyway. If he's done, then Ben could've just killed him with the bomb.
• This does not make any sense because Ben is clearly aware that Michael can not die, making him perfect for the job on the ship. Even if he were to be discovered the freighter crew could not do anything about it.
  • Responsive.
• The innocent people are the 20% of the people on the boat who, according to Miles, are not lying.
  • Illogical. Ben is the biggest liar; how can he claim innocence based on honesty?
• Ben tells Michael he can be redeemed by collaborating with him. He can consider himself "one of the good people." In turn, being good or bad is something one can choose; it is a matter of free will and not a matter of predetermination.
  • Inconclusive. So what if it *were* a matter of predetermination, would it make a difference?
• This is why Goodwin thought there was a case for Ana Lucia: he thought Ana Lucia was someone who would choose good over bad.
  • Responsive. Irrelevant. Actually she did choose good over bad. But she was killed anyway. Besides, this theory does not belong here.
• This seems unlikely as Sayid put Michael in a kimura/shoulder lock immediately after Michael recapped his story. We see Michael in the same shoulder lock being forced unwillingly into the Captain's office, presumably straight from the engine room.
  • Responsive. Non-Theory. The theory above was changed based on this argument though.
• Sayid is with Jack, Kate, Desmond, Juliet, and everyone who wants to be rescued. He sees the Others as enemies for they have prevented the survivors from being rescued. And he sees the freighter as the only possibility to be rescued. In turn, when Michael says that he is the saboteur and working for Ben, Sayid sees him as the enemy, and not only an enemy, but also as a traitor insofar as he killed Ana Lucia and Libby and handed Jack, Sawyer, Kate, and Hurley to the Others; he is someone who cannot be trusted. Sayid does not regard Michael as one of them any longer.
  • Obvious. That's what he says anyway. What's the theory?
• Two possibilities:
• One: Sayid has defected in an off-screen event we weren't shown yet.
  • Stated as a possibility. Speculative. He's very intact, actually, and there's no reason to believe otherwise.
• Two: Since Sayid originally went with Jack's group, he may still be under the impression/hope that those people are there to help. He also still distrusts Ben, who Michael works for, and who is with Locke's camp.
  • Stated as a possibility. Obvious. Again, that's what he says.
• We have no proof that the Island can control or affect people in New York, and all we know makes that sound more than unlikely. The implication is that Michael has been physically altered by being on the island and then coming back into the 'real world' somehow, and that this is preventing him from being able to kill himself.
  • Speculative. Incorrect. We may not have proof, but we have damn good evidence. And there was no implication that he was altered.
• The Captain already knew that Michael was working for Ben because the Captain is also working for Ben. Only the Captain would know the first and last names of everyone unless Michael was obvious (asking them directly what their first and last names were) or snooping where he shouldn't be and easily found out.
  • Illogical. If the captain is Ben's man on the boat, who would need Michael?
• Why would Ben ask Michael to compile a list then?
  • Responsive. Non-Theory.
• The two people that we have seen Michael meet (Naomi and Minkowski) stated their full name.
  • Responsive. Observation. Non-Theory.
• If you introduce yourself to someone using your "full" name, they usually respond with their "full" name.
  • Responsive. Speculative. Non-Theory.
• Michael's low profile and wide access as ship's "janitor" would give him opportunity to look for a list of crew names. (He's managed to perform sabotage without getting caught.)
  • Responsive.
• Perhaps this is the event to which Ben refers later in The Economist, when he said to Sayid: "Remember what they did the last time you followed your heart?..."
  • Stated as a possibility. Speculative. And I think illogical, too. "Thinking with his heart" was almost surely reference to love, because they were talking about Elsa at that moment.
• Miles spoke to Libby beyond the grave. This is how he knows Michael's alias is false.
  • Illogical. If he could do that, he wouldn't have to ask them to take her to Naomi's body to commune about how she died.
• If this were true, one would expect Libby to also tell Miles that Michael killed her. But Miles doesn't seem very abrasive, and is not repulsed or disgusted by Michael, so it would stand to reason that Miles knew by some other paranormal method.
  • Responsive. Speculative.
• If you could talk to the dead, you would probably hear all kinds of terrible stories. Over time it would probably become difficult to surprise, much less repulse or disgust someone who had "heard it all before" time after time.
  • Responsive. Speculative.
• Miles was speaking to another of the many people who have died who knew Michael. No reason it has to be Libby.
  • Illogical. As per above. Miles needed to be near the dead (soul). It's very unlikely that any of those souls show up in Fiji.
• Libby is the only deceased character who appeared on the freighter.
  • Responsive. Speculative. She appeared to Michael, we don't know if it was her or something else (like the Island), or if he was imagining it because of his guilt.
• Going along with this point, we have already seen that Miles uses props like the fake ghost detector to aid in his performances. It's likely he also learned the behaviors of fake psychics so as to be more impressive. Fake psychics often simply observe people and then present the information as "psychic" flashes. If Miles did have paranormal information about Michael, wouldn't he confront him about planning to blow up the boat, rather than using a fake name?
  • Speculative in many ways. Stated as a possibility. Stated as a question.
• This assumes that it actually is Libby's ghost, and not just a hallucination of Michael's or the monster in the form of an apparition.
  • Responsive. The part of the theory above was removed based on this argument though.
• Miles knows this for the same reason Cassidy knew Kate lied about her name. It's not hard to pick up on an unexperienced actor/liar. He didn't know for certain until he confronted Michael. Either way, it doesn't matter, as this has had no discernible effect on Michael's experience on the freighter.
  • Obvious. Redundant This is what you would think already. And it's almost the same as the theory above it. Besides this argument denies importance on its own, so I guess it "doesn't matter" that it's gone now.
• Miles works for Ben, and therefore knows Michael's identity. Notice the suspicious conversation between Miles and Ben about the "3.2 million dollars"--this could be a code language between two associates.
  • Illogical. Ben wouldn't need Michael if he already had a man on the boat. Miles is obviously looking for easy money.
• We were not given enough time to gauge his full reaction.
  • Responsive. Non-Theory.
• The producers have stated that said obituary will have to be rewritten for a later episode, but likely because they used the name stub "Jo[.. ..]antham" in it before they decided on Michael's alias Kevin Johnson.
  • Obvious. Non-Theory. Meta-Lost. We know all that, plus it uses outside information (from the producers and all). It's not a theory.
• The helicopter probably just decided to man-up and go back to the freighter.
  • Stated as possibility. It adds nothing; if the helicopter returned, there would have to be some reason anyway.
• They had only one pilot, Frank, who is still alive, so it was not a helicopter falling into the water.
  • Incorrect. His argument with Naomi contradicts this.
• Naomi and Frank argue when she tells him she's going in by herself on the first mission, even though he protests that he's the better pilot. So it seems as if she did in fact take a helicopter in, she did go by herself, and it did crash.
  • Responsive. Obvious. That's what we've been told already. It's not a theory.
• Frank does seem the better pilot, though he flew during the day and Naomi during the night. Even so, Frank had trouble, but was able to land.
  • Inconclusive.

I hope I've made my arguments clear. You may not agree with me on some occasions, but please argue the viability of a theory before reviving it. Thanks. --     c      blacxthornE      t     12:33, 17 April 2008 (PDT)

Part 2

• Later in the same scene, Karl looks at Alex and says that Ben may be right and they should go. He then glances down at her mid-section.
  • Redundant. Vague. Oh, and I gotta say this: Her "mid-section"? Now there's an interesting theory: She's the real Flight 815! That would be a hell of a mindf*ck.
• Ben wanted Karl and Rousseau dead; he sent them with Alex to "The Temple." He knew his people were there, and that they would take care of business. He would have no idea where the "Freighter people" were, or how/when they would attack, or if they would or wouldn't kill his daughter.
  • Redundant. Second part irrelevant.
• If Ben planned for everyone except Alex to be shot, then why didn't he tell someone else from Locke's group to come? He could've easily eliminated any/all of them by "leading them to the temple."
  • Discussion.
• Because then it would seem like a trap and wouldn't work. If Ben said that it is meant only for his people and then said to Locke and Sawyer etc. that they could go as well, they would twig to Ben's manipulation
  • Discussion.
• Ben has been shown to be obsessive. He claims that Juliet is his and he even got Goodwin killed. ("The Other Woman") He can have the same view with Alex since she shows affection for Karl and Rousseau more than she does for him.
  • Inconclusive. And redundant, if you were to draw a conclusion.
• Keamy was shooting at them; he is seen in Michael's flashback having target practice (though with an automatic weapon).
  • Inconclusive. And has evidence against itself.
• If so, why are there no guns on the helicopter such as an M60 or Gatling-style mini gun? If they are there to kill, air support would seem logical.
  • Stated as question. Speculative. Maybe it would, but that doesn't mean otherwise they're not planning an assault.
• Alex responds to the shooter clearly assuming they are not The Others. She would not need to exclaim to any of them that she's Ben's daughter; the Losties also know who she is. She assumes, as Ben suggested to her, that she's being targeted by someone unknown to her, most likely the freighter people.
  • Inconclusive. Stated as possibility. It's not a page for her theories. That is what she thinks; no evidence that she's right.
    
    

Discussion

• She was wearing Charlotte's bullet proof vest.
  • Ben gave it to her as he planned with her to get Alex away from Karl and she and Ben knew they were going to be shot at.
  • A bullet proof vest would probably not stop a rifle round.
    • Depending on range/distance, bullet(projectile)type (lead steel, brass or combination & hollow point or full metal jacket) and load (how much powder or grain/gr), it can with or without extra armour plates. The term "bullet-proof" is a misnomer; they are actually "bullet resistant". A harden alloy or armor-piercing ("teflon" bullets [1]) could be used.
    • Omar and Keamy practice skeet with Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine guns, which are chambered in 9mm,10mm & 40cal. There is sufficient accuracy for the shots with a H&K. Plenty of rifles use calibers like 9mm & 45cal that are more associated with handguns. (There is a 50 cal handgun.) Most likely an assault team will be using close quarters like the mp5--not rifles. Snipers (long range rifles) would be of little use due to the jungle cover.
    • No gunshot sound is heard, but only the swish of the bullet passing nearby, so it would seem the weapon was fitted with a silencer. Can a silencer be fitted to an MP5 machine gun?
      • It can, as well as slower speed/subsonic (lighter powder load) rounds. (See some variants the gun comes in [2].) The bullet option are almost endless. That doesn't even count all the clones/knockoffs manufactured. But due to Widmore's funding we can assume they have the real thing. Suppressed if built in would have "SD" in the name (integrated instead of attached by method screw/threaded barrel, pin and/or bolt on). Based on the stocks seen during skeet shooting, it would probably have A1 or A2 in the name. Due to the shots Michael heard, we can assume that if they have them, the suppressors are detachable. The more you use them, the more they wear out (get louder). But we have no clue how large and diverse the ship's armory is. Someone needs to watch to see if it's a single shot, three round burst, and/or full auto they are firing. Silencers affect accuracy and operation of the weapon.
      • Why use a silencer in the jungle? So that Ben and the Lockies don't hear the shots?
      • Gunshots give away your position. It's not really silent but reduced lower level sound that doesn't carry as far. Also, in close quarters battle, the sounds will make the assault team suffer temporary noise-induced hearing loss, which would impair their ability to communicate. (Ever notice how much screaming to each other cops or soldiers do to each other breaching a room?)
      • No weapons seen on the Island so far during the entirety of the show has been shown with a silencer.

End of discussion

• She still has some "work to do" and people with some work to do cannot die.
  • Speculative. We already know people with work to do cannot die. Unless this is supported this with evidence that she has work to do, it's not a theory.
• We still have to be told her story. Damon said at Comic Con 2007, "There are important things revealed in [Rousseau's flashback story]," and "Barring unforeseen circumstances, you'll be seeing that story within the next year or two." Seeing as she hasn't had her own episode yet, there is still a chance that Rousseau will live.
  • Inconclusive. Uses outside information like Comic Con. Plus Just because she died doesn't mean that she won't have a flashback. This is confirmed with Naomi's last flashback, and in the teleconference on 4/17.
• Tom recently appeared prominently in flashback, and he's already pushing up palm trees.
  • Responsive. Inconclusive. Appearing prominently in a flashback and having their own flashback is not the same and this shouldn't be used as a counter-argument. Not that a proper counter-argument would fit to the theory page.
• Rousseau was not shot to kill as Karl was (through the heart), and she did not know the directions to the Temple. Karl was shot because he betrayed Ben, and Alex was left alive for the obvious reason that she was only allowed to know the path to the secret temple. Rousseau was not a bad person, so she could not be killed, Jacob would only allow her to be wounded to protect an island secret.
  • Speculative. Very. We don't know whether she knew the directions. We don't know whether Alex really was the only one allowed. We don't know whether Rousseau was a good person. We don't know whether Jacob has anything to do with all this.
    
    

Discussion

• The second shot only penetrated one side of Karl's water bottle. If a bullet cannot penetrate both sides of a water bottle it is unlikely it would penetrate both sides of his body.
  • A 9mm round like the MP5's Weapons the Kahanaies were using for skeet practice could be stopped depending on bullet type and load by entering a water bottle. Water acts as a solid(when stuck quickly) and soft lead or hollow points would deform & disperse their energy rapidly on impact of any resistance/target.
  • The bullet was not visible inside the water bottle as if it only punctured one side of the bottle, therefore the water only coming out of one side of the bottle is a prop glitch and not a clue that the bullets are somehow not traveling fast enough to kill Karl.
    • Could be a skip round just barely clipping the side of the bottle and not a straight direct into trajectory path.

End of discussion

• Or maybe he doesn't die. It's happened before.
  • Speculative. Stated as possibility. Inconclusive. No evidence to support. Plus, just because "it's happened before" isn't grounds to conclude that it's gonna happen here too.
• Ben has a way of giving Miles the money after he gets of the island. It was Ben or a force that Ben can control that showed Miles where the money was in Mrs. Gardner's house in confirmed dead and so he can do the same when Miles gets off the island.
  • Speculative. Irrelevant. It has no support, and even if it had, it doesn't belong to this page anyway.

I hope I've made my arguments clear. You may not agree with me on some occasions, but please argue the viability of a theory before reviving it. Thanks. --     c      blacxthornE      t     04:04, 18 April 2008 (PDT)

Part 3

• Notice that during their scuffle, Michael shot a round off. But when he checks the gun later in his apartment, all six rounds are still in the chamber, further suggesting that Tom switched the guns.
  • Responsive. Inconclusive. This is supposed to be evidence to support the theory that Tom switched Michael's gun. Although the theory is not removed, this piece of evidence is not conclusive: There's no reason to think Michael did not have time to load the gun. Furthermore, he would have known that it was not his gun, if he hadn't loaded it himself. Give him some credit.
• Plenty of time has passed for Michael to reload the spent round.
  • Responsive. Non-Theory. Plus the argument it responds to is deleted too.
• People who have been to the island cannot die off the island. This is also the reason Jack was "saved" by the car crash before jumping off the bridge in "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" - The island prevented it from happening.
  • Illogical. This would mean that the man in the coffin has not been on the island, which means his conversation with Kate makes no sense whatsoever.
• If this is true, then the person inside the coffin has not been on the island.
  • Responsive. However it seems enough reason to remove the argument above too.
• Michael cannot die because he has "work to do": namely, to become Ben's "man on the boat."
  • Non-Theory. Tom said that already.
• And this is also what Michael himself thinks: when Sayid asks him why he is on the boat, he replies he is there "to die." Thus, he thinks he won't be allowed to die until he accomplishes his mission on the boat.
  • Obvious. We know that Michael thinks that because that is obviously why he accepted the job.
• If this is true, then that suggests that Ben, or more generally the Others, have knowledge of the future, because they knew the Island wouldn't let Michael die.
  • Incorrect. Illogical. Speculative. This is not a logical conclusion. The fact that they know the Island won't let someone die because they have work to do, does not suggest that they know the future. Furthermore, the fact that Ben and/or Tom knows something does not mean all the Others know it; there's no reason for such a generalization, since Ben and Tom are obviously higher in rank than most Others.
• The Island doesn't let certain people die, such as Michael, but also Locke, Rose, and Richard Alpert.
  • Speculative. No reason given for the conclusion.
• The gun didn't have a firing pin. When Michael looked at the bullets, none of them had a pin dent.
  • Incorrect. It did have a firing pin.
• Some guns have the firing pin inside the gun instead of on the hammer.
  • Responsive. Irrelevant.
• The scene in which Michael crashes the car is actually a flashforward: Michael returns off the island with the Oceanic 6 (although he is not one of them). Barring time difference complications, there doesn't seem to be enough time for Michael to recover from the crash in the short time between leaving the island and getting on the freighter. He still cannot kill himself, so he must return to the island with Jack et al as there is more unfinished business.
  • Debunked. He still had Jin's watch on his hand when he wrote the note. So the car crash is before he bought the gun. Furthermore, Darlton said that when they show flashes of a character, it will be in chronological order throughout the episode.
    
    

Discussion

• All flashforwards to date have identified themselves as such by the end of the episode.
• The end of the season 2 finale is still a large indicator that they may not need to tell us what is a flashforward and what isn't, also.. wouldn't that just be a little too simple if they were just going to tell us exactly when everything in a timeline happened? The fact that they haven't mentioned things as a flashforward could be shock value building and we possibly find out multiple scenes we saw as flashbacks or even present time are flashforwards or flashbacks.
• This is unlikely because we clearly see Michael pin a note to Walt to his shirt, and the nurse refers to it when he's in the hospital.
  • The note doesn't mean it's not a flashforward. Michael had no ID, and therefore it would have been almost impossible to track down 'Walt'.
    • The note may have been rhetorical, as a catharsis for his guilt. He never expected Walt to actually read it.
• When Michael wrote the note to Walt before the car crash, he was despondent, full of grief. When he went to his mom's house to see Walt, he had hope still that he could reconcile with Walt. This makes it seem like he wrote the note and crashed after he gave up on ever seeing Walt again.
• When Michael tried to shoot himself, he was trembling and hesitant. When he got in the car, he punched the gas and never hesitated. That suggests that he had already tried to kill himself, maybe many times. In addition, crashing a car is a pretty strange (and desperate) way to kill yourself. It seems that he would try many other methods before resorting to that.
• It can't be a flashforward because when Michael is writting his note to Walt he is still wearing Jins watch, so it had to of happened before he got the gun.

End of Discussion

• Michael can't kill himself because he will be going back to the island. The island exists in the past, so even though he hasn't gone back yet as far as he's concerned, it's already happened as far as the space-time continuum goes. Killing himself would change the past, which is impossible, and therefore he can't kill himself. He can still be the person in the coffin, though, since that would happen after leaving the island the second time.
  • Incorrect. The Island obviously does not exist that far in the past. When Sayid and Desmond get off, there's a two-day difference. Michael's attempts was way earlier than two days ago, and he hasn't been to the Island yet. Plus it's too complicated to be an actual explanation.
• The Island will not let anyone die before their mission is finished.
  • Non-Theory. We've been told that already.
• Mikhail couldn't die because he had to tell Ben that the Kahana crew had arrived on the Island.
  • Speculative.
• Or because he had to kill Charlie, who had to die.
  • Redundant.
• Jack wasn't able to kill himself on the bridge because the Island isn't done with him yet.
  • Obvious.
• Locke survived being shot by Ben because he had "work to do."
  • Obvious.
• Based on the timing, it seems likely that Tom also captured Anthony Cooper on this same trip.
  • Stated as a possibility. Plus Alpert was asked to do that.
• Except that in The Man from Tallahassee Ben asked Richard Alpert to get Anthony Cooper. This took place on Day 81, while Tom's trip took place from Day 75 to Day 80. So basically, Tom's trip took place right before Richard's. But there's one thing that still confuses me, which is why it only seemed to take Richard one day to leave the island, arrive at Tallahassee on the other side of the world, capture Anthony Cooper and then bring him all the way back to the island. Perhaps there really is something to whole magic box concept.
  • Responsive. Plus the argument it responds to is removed.
    
    

Discussion / Speculation

• The Rolex watch that Michael pawned will be crucial in finding the Island.
  • Knowledge of the special watch's resurfacing will get back to Sun's father, Mr. Paik, who will then think that his daughter and son-in-law may be still alive. While he wouldn't immediately know about the Island, he could find out eventually.
    • Mr. Paik will discover that Widmore is involved in the area close to where the plane was and will follow his actions, uncover what he's doing, and muddle Widmore's plot somehow.
    • This is also why Jin stays on the Island; as punishment for giving the watch away, he will stay behind while Sun gets to leave.
  • However, Mr. Paik is already connected to Charles Widmore, as indicated in The Lost Experience.

• The island's healing powers still applies off-island. Michael recovered from his "accident" exceptionally quickly; based on the timeline, he couldn't have been in the hospital more than a couple of days.
• Michael has a benefactor off-island, most likely Ben and the Others (or possibly Abaddon). Someone paid for his hospitalization and arranged for him not to be charged for the property damage done from the crash.
  • It's likely that his hospital bills aren't paid at all as Michael refused to give them his name and had no identification. Public hospitals/clinics have to treat people in the ER regardless of their ability to pay.
  • If he had an off-island benefactor, it's doubtful that he'd be living in such a crappy apartment.
  • His benefactor set him up with his first off-island identity (unnamed, but prior to meeting Tom it was said he and Walt took alternate names.)
    • If it was the Others, he would probably not have been so surprised to see Tom.
    • It probably wasn't Widmore, as Michael didn't respond to the name at all.
      • It's unlikely that Michael's former employer was Widmore Construction although not impossible.

End of Discussion / Speculation

• The other patient in Michael's hospital room is Alvar Hanso.
  • Speculative. Plus it belongs to the guy's own theory page.
• Michael's mother could not call him by his real name and so was calling him by a different name other than Kevin Johnson as Michael did not have this name at the time she said this. Michael and Walt were given false identities when they first arrived back home by people who work for Ben thus explaing why Tom said that Michael's shore leave was over when he presented him with a new identity. One day Michael will return home under the first fake identity and it is his funeral that Jack attends in "Through the Looking Glass" and explains why none of the other Losties attended due to Michael being a traitor.
  • Does not belong here. See the guy's own theory page.
• If his funeral is under his "original" fake name, which his family is aware of, then why would none of his family members attend the funeral?
  • Responsive. Stated as a question.
• His mother and Walt have turned their back on him.
  • Responsive. Non-Theory.
    
    

Timeline Theory Discussion

• Michael's mother states that he was gone for "over two months". This indicates that according to the timeframe that Michael's mother experienced, the length of time between the plane crash and Michael's reappearance took somewhere between two and three months. Michael left the island on day 67 and reappeared in New York sometime after. At face value, this seems to indicate that the flow of time on the island is not different than the rest of the world--at least not significantly so. All theories so far have indicated that if there is a difference, then time is moving slower on the island compared with the rest of the world. That being the case, 67 days on the island would encompass more time than that for Michael's mother. Plus you have to take into account how long it took Michael and Walt to return to New York on top of the 67 days. If there is a difference in the rate of time, it is most likely very slight. The more likely scenario is that passing through the island's barrier can cause you to lose time--a reference to the "lost time" easter egg in Not in Portland that the producers have already verified.
  • Unless the time difference only started after the implosion of the Swan.
    • That's an extremely interesting possibility. If true, then it's possible that time on the island always flowed at a different speed on the island UNTIL Dharma came along and set up the Swan to make it run at the same speed as everywhere else. And if THAT'S true, then one has to wonder why they did that. This also opens up another can of worms, which is whether or not a difference in the speed of time is directly tied to the effect Desmond experienced upon leaving the island. In other words, if it hadn't been for the Swan's destruction, would the people on the freighter not be dying? Or is that effect separate from anything relating to the speed of time?
  • Not true, if 20 minutes outside the island takes 1,5 day on the island, it would mean that 1 day outside the island took 108 days on the island. And I know the number is really catchy, but if there was a time different it would mean they needed to stay 108 days on the island for 24 hours to pass... And they haven't, yet still ALOT more then 24 hours passed.

End of Discussion

• [Not all Others can leave the Island.] This is because some of the Others have been exposed to radiation or more likely electromagnetism. If they try to leave, they will experience what Desmond experienced. Tom, Richard Alpert, Ethan and Ben are some of the Others who have been seen off the island. There may be more Others who can leave about which we don't know yet.
  • Non-Theory. Inconclusive. Part stated as a possibility. We know that some have been exposed to radiation, and "likely" electromagnetism. We know what they will experience. We know we have seen those Others off the Island. We know there "may be more". What part of this is a theory?
• Unless they have constants.
  • Responsive. Non-Theory.
    
    

Discussion

• Some Others are Hostiles, who can move freely to and from the island (e.g. Richard Alpert, Ethan, Tom). The other Others can only be allowed off the island by the will of Ben or Jacob. Note that Tom responds "some of us" to Michael's question of "come and go as you please".
  • If you look at the transcript, it does not add the part "as you please". What Michael actually asks is, "So you people can just...come and go?" Michael's question was more intended as an issue of whether or not some of the Others are ABLE to come and go, not whether or not they have PERMISSION to come and go. Although to be fair, it's probably a little bit of both. None of the Others can just leave the island whenever they feel like it without some form of permission, perhaps not even Ben.
• There's no reason to believe all Others can't leave the island. They may have gained some sort of immunity over time or from Dharma to many of the negative effects of leaving the island.

End of Discussion

I hope I've made my arguments clear. You may not agree with me on some occasions, but please argue the viability of a theory before reviving it. Thanks. --     c      blacxthornE      t     15:50, 19 April 2008 (PDT)

"It can't be a flashforward because when Michael is writting his note to Walt he is still wearing Jins watch, so it had to of happened before he got the gun."

• Oh, there's no chance that Michael was depressed about giving away the one thing that kept him to the island and went to get it back? Saying that there is NO CHANCE there was a flashforward in this Michael episode would be ignorant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ajbuce5 (talk • contribs) .
  • First of all, let me say that I moved your comment here. The above section contains the stuff I've removed and I don't want new discussion to get mixed with the old one.

    Second, the reason that I removed that particular part was because it was a discussion (as I pointed out the start and the end of discussions). Theory discussions have no place in theory pages, that's what this page is for. Whether there is a chance or not is irrelevant at this point, because that part is a discussion and was removed because of that, not because of logical fallacy.

    Third, (again, although this was not why I remobed that part,) yes, I think that there's no chance that he got it back. It would just be too ridiculous (for my taste) if they said "oh, no no, that was not a clue... he just got it back". The thing is, it's a nice watch, and probably someone would take it in that amount of time (while Michael is on the mission and until he gets back).

    Plus, as I said, it's much, much more conceivable that it was on his wrist because he didn't sell it yet. Just the fact that you thought that he might have bought it back is a sign of great imagination, that wouldn't come to my mind in a million years.

    Furthermore, as I pointed out earlier, Darlton said that they would keep a single character's flashes in chronological order through a single episode.

    Moreover, they also said that they would not mix flashforwards and flashbacks in one episode.

    And last but not the least, I'd really expect them to say "we screwed up" and not "he bought it back" if this turns out to be a flashforward. --     c      blacxthornE      t     19:04, 24 April 2008 (PDT)