Talk:Literary techniques
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Froeshadowing
There was a clear case of foreshadowing when Farady was "grazed" in the neck as Jack put it at the Dharma Cabins then was killed in S05E15, The Variable. I noticed it wasn't a category for Literary technique. I'm sure there are many, many other cases of this and I'm surprised it doesn't exist. Is it somewhere else?--Lucky Day 23:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Examples for Unreliable Narrator"
I added an example to "unreliable narrator" to show why "the Lost story itself is sometimes viewed as the unreliable narrator". I suggested this example on the "unreliable narrator" talk page, and noone disagreed, and I was told I was "preaching to the choir". So this seems like a good example. Please state your opinion here if you believe this is a bad example, and we can look for a better one. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 22:48, 23 April 2008 (PDT)
- My opinions (and other's) were clear on the talk page of UN, I thought. You've remembered (or misunderstood) the "preaching to the choir" comment in the wrong context (the rest of the sentence said "...by pointing out LOST is an UN in its entirety"). I was talking about the post directly above that comment. You are pushing a point no one else appears to agree with, I'm sorry. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 00:42, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- If Lost is an UN in its entirety, then surely there is one example we could add to the article. I will add one, and other people can comment if they don't like it. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 07:25, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- Dagg, you are using a classic example of "ask the other parent". Don't start a new concensus drive here when no one supported your ideas on the other article for the same topic. I'm asking you, to prevent an edit war, to please remove the entry yourself and stop soliciting it as something which hasn't been discussed to death. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 08:32, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- I asked if this specific example was valid on the other talk page, and noone answered the question. So now I am trying to ask the same question here. Here is a summary: I watched "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" in school many years ago, and I watched it again on a Twilight Zone DVD about a year ago, and the film seems to follow the format of Boone's vision in "Hearts and Minds". I.e., the film version of "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" does not seem to have a first person narrator (there is very little if any dialog in the whole film), but the audience is presented the main character's visions as if they were true. In Lost, the audience is presented with Boone's vision as if it was true. So my question: If "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" uses UN, than doesn't Boone's vision in "Hearts and Minds" also use UN? Is the difference between the two works too subtle for me to see? Here is a link to watch the film so people can make up their own mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLxlyTrAC4 . -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 09:17, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- It was answered specifically, IIRC. No, it's not the same. UN is a story device, not a plotting device (If you want more on the difference between story and plot, please look at my talk page), so simply, UN is used to analyse an entire story. Episodes and portions of episodes are not stories; they are plot. AOAOCB is an entire story, so even if you are correct about the film version, it doesn't make a difference in relation to Lost. Lost can be, and I think it is, an unreliable narrator. Episodes of Losts, or parts of episodes, cannot be UN by its very definition. The consensus was to not relax the definition; therefore, we will never find example within Lost as a UN in accordance with the consensus. I made this page to put everything in one place, especially the stub articles, not to restart what had already been settled on UN's talk page. The only thing to determine now, on the UN page, is if it's worth keeping the separate article. I don't think it is, but I'll go with the majority decision for consensus. I would appreciate, however, if you'd remove what you added here last because it's wrong, and it against the consensus. Thanks. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 09:30, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- (EDIT CONFLICT) I personally advocated for the UN on Talk:Unreliable narrator, giving more examples than just Boone's vision, and made good solid points that they could be considered UN cases. But in the end I thought we all agreed (although apparently this is not the case) on dismissing Boone's vision, and all the other visions and dreams, as unreliable narrator techniques. Why is this discussion back? -- c blacxthornE t 09:36, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- As I said above, it's a case of "ask the other parent" -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:29, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- I asked if this specific example was valid on the other talk page, and noone answered the question. So now I am trying to ask the same question here. Here is a summary: I watched "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" in school many years ago, and I watched it again on a Twilight Zone DVD about a year ago, and the film seems to follow the format of Boone's vision in "Hearts and Minds". I.e., the film version of "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" does not seem to have a first person narrator (there is very little if any dialog in the whole film), but the audience is presented the main character's visions as if they were true. In Lost, the audience is presented with Boone's vision as if it was true. So my question: If "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" uses UN, than doesn't Boone's vision in "Hearts and Minds" also use UN? Is the difference between the two works too subtle for me to see? Here is a link to watch the film so people can make up their own mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLxlyTrAC4 . -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 09:17, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- Dagg, you are using a classic example of "ask the other parent". Don't start a new concensus drive here when no one supported your ideas on the other article for the same topic. I'm asking you, to prevent an edit war, to please remove the entry yourself and stop soliciting it as something which hasn't been discussed to death. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 08:32, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- If Lost is an UN in its entirety, then surely there is one example we could add to the article. I will add one, and other people can comment if they don't like it. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 07:25, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
Episodes of Lost are stories
It seems that the argument above is trying to say that episodes of Lost are not stories. Each episode has a beginning, a middle, and an end, so they seem like stories to me. I.e. Act 1: Boone and Locke talk about Shannon. Act 2: Boone witnesses Shannon's death. Act 3: The show explains that Boone only experienced what he wants to happen, and not what really happened. One could easily argue that this mirrors what happened in AOAOCB: Act 1: The prisoner is about to be hanged. Act 2: The prisoner escapes. Act 3: The show explains that the prisoner only experienced what he wants to happen, and not what really happened. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 10:03, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- You are confusing story with plot. In a book, chapters have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and can have self-contained plots; they are not, however, the story, which is the entire book (unless it's an anthology, but let's not confuse matters here). Furthermore, it's obviously not the end of the story for Boone and Shannon; we see Boone radio Bernard, Boone is killed, Shannon grieves, Shannon is killed, Sayid grieves, etc. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:32, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- I do not totally agree with this logic, but I am personally holding off on this particular aspect of the discussion. I asked a question about the AOAOCB film on the talk:unreliable narrator page. If everyone agrees that the film does not use Unreliable Narrator, then the above aspect of the discussion doesn't matter to me anymore. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 16:55, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- Apples and oranges; an entire story (or if by extension an entire film) using UN as a story device does not allow other plot to be compared in the same manner. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 22:09, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- I disagree, and I'll try to illustrate why. What if there was an obvious use of UN in a specific episode? Would you disallow discussing it? For example, what if an entire episode happened as follows:
- Locke, Ben, and Hurley are standing in the cabin. Locke sits down behind a desk and orders Ben to tell him the truth about Jacob.
- Ben proceeds to tell Locke and Hurley the full story of Jacob. Ben's story is interspersed with scenes that show Ben meeting Jacob for the first time, etc.
- At the end of Ben's speech, Locke is satisfied that Ben is telling the truth, and tells him he is free to leave the cabin. Ben limps out of the cabin.
- Locke looks down on the floor of the cabin, and sees a dusty children's book. He picks it up, scans the first few pages, and realizes that the entirety of Ben's story, including the interspersed scenes that were shown to the audience, was completely plagiarized from this children's book.
- Would you disallow anyone suggesting that my made-up episode used UN, simply because the episode is only "plot", and cannot be analyzed with "story devices" ? Your argument doesn't seem to make any sense, because stories have "sub-stories", "stories in stories", "story arcs", etc., and all of those things can have "story devices" associated with them. I contend that any given sub-story in Lost can have "story devices". -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 00:19, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
- Dagg, come on. One place for this same argument or the other, eh? See Talk:Unreliable narrator. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 00:32, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
- These are two different discussions. You did not answer my question, and I don't understand why: "Would you disallow anyone suggesting that my made-up episode used UN, simply because the episode is only "plot", and cannot be analyzed with "story devices" ? -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 00:59, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
- It is the same discussion, and I've answered you there. I'm not going to cross-post my answer regarding the same subject. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 01:03, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
- These are two different discussions. You did not answer my question, and I don't understand why: "Would you disallow anyone suggesting that my made-up episode used UN, simply because the episode is only "plot", and cannot be analyzed with "story devices" ? -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 00:59, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
- Dagg, come on. One place for this same argument or the other, eh? See Talk:Unreliable narrator. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 00:32, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
- I disagree, and I'll try to illustrate why. What if there was an obvious use of UN in a specific episode? Would you disallow discussing it? For example, what if an entire episode happened as follows:
- Apples and oranges; an entire story (or if by extension an entire film) using UN as a story device does not allow other plot to be compared in the same manner. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 22:09, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- I do not totally agree with this logic, but I am personally holding off on this particular aspect of the discussion. I asked a question about the AOAOCB film on the talk:unreliable narrator page. If everyone agrees that the film does not use Unreliable Narrator, then the above aspect of the discussion doesn't matter to me anymore. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 16:55, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
- Anyone who claims Lost episodes are not stories doesnt know a thing about writing. In fact, the entire literary and Story analysis sections need to redone by someone with a basic education in Literary devices. I would be glad to do it. My blog is here http://johnburgerlost.blogspot.com/ and it will show that the actual themes, motifs, and devices are hardly mentioned here because there is no place to put them in the current structure. Each episode has a concrete theme in which the plot and dialog are set on top off. A novice may see no stucture, but it is there. The fact that lost is arc based has no bearing on this because of the flashbacks. It is by this device that the episodes have a standalone aspect to them. Contact me if you want me to help overhaul this. donkey22@optonline.net--John Burger 20:54, 27 May 2008 (PDT)
- "Repeated lines or phrases" is simply called Repetition. Repetition includes not only dialouge, but also almost every other aspect of a story. Repetition is a more scholarly label. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackdutton42 (talk • contribs) .
