Contents 1 The Last Member of Oceanic 6 2 The date of Sun's delivery 3 Obvious theories 4 The date of Sun's delivery 5 The Sunda Trench 6 Delete? 7 Walt 8 Numbers On Jins Grave 9 Jin's Section 10 Some removed theories 10.1 Who's responsible for it? 11 Sunda Trench 12 Charles Widmore 12.1 How did Widmore find the island?

The Last Member of Oceanic 6Edit

I think this belongs to Talk:Oceanic 6. Anyone agree?--     c      blacxthornE      t     07:01, 14 March 2008 (PDT)

I think you're right. --Lemur 08:22, 14 March 2008 (PDT)

The date of Sun's delivery Edit

why is this in here? discussing facts and time diffrences is not a theory --CharlieReborn 03:33, 15 March 2008 (PDT)

• Agree.--     c      blacxthornE      t     04:10, 15 March 2008 (PDT)

Obvious theoriesEdit

Why people are posting obvious things on the theory page, like "Micheal is Ben's man on the boat" or "Ben staged the crash" or "Jin is dead, although not on the date specified on his grave"? Aren't these things that are obvious after watching the episode? BeŻet 08:37, 15 March 2008 (PDT)

• Actually, no. Yes, Michael is probably Ben's man on the boat. But there are at least two competing narratives about who staged the crash, Ben or Charles Widmore. Since we know Jin didn't die on the date on his gravestone, this means the date is part of the coverup. So is he still on the island? Is he alive or dead? All of the possible permutations are valid theories, in my mind. --Emily76 10:02, 15 March 2008 (PDT)

The date of Sun's delivery Edit

MOVED FROM THEORY PAGE.

• July 17, 2005. She and Jin conceived on October 25 (based on the D.O.C. determined in the episode D.O.C.).
• June 15. If the Oceanic 6 said that Jin died in the crash, then Sun would have to have been pregnant on the day of the crash already. If she conceived on September 22, then her due date would be June 15. If she delivers in mid-June 2005, then the baby is truly six weeks early but the world thinks it is on time. If she delivers in late-July 2005, then the baby is truly at term but the world would think it is six weeks late. Either of these would be discovered by other people.
  • There is no difinitive "tell" that says a baby is early/late. Nothing is abolutely routine in a birth, normal or otherwise. A mother's first baby could be born at 7 lbs and her next one at 10 lbs. That's why doctors estimate an "expectancy" date and not a definitive "birth" date. There would be nothing suspicious either way.
  • Also, if she was really six weeks early, that would explain why she said there was something wrong when on the phone with emergency services.
    • However, that baby did not look like she was 6 weeks early. A baby that early would usually be taken to NICU ASAP, not given to the mother to hold.
  • However, time is not constant when travelling to/from the island. This phenomenon likely altered to some extent the duration of Sun's pregnancy.
  • Normal human gestation is anywhere from 38 to 42 weeks. Sun was an estimated 7.5 weeks gestation on day 87 (as per D.O.C.), putting her at approximately 9 weeks gestation as of this episode (Monday, Dec 27th-Island Time). That would mean her delivery could safely happen any time between July 18 and Aug 15. Even allowing for the time shifty-ness of Island time, it shouldn't have impacted the delivery date significantly.
    • This, of course, would have caused her doctor to realize early on in her care that either Jin didn't die on Sept. 22nd, or that Jin wasn't the father of the baby. However, assuming ethical professionals, they would have been entirely discrete about this and the public at large would not have been the wiser.
      • Agreed, given what we've seen portrayed about Korean maternity care (ie, the cover-up by the fertility doctor), it's reasonable to assume that even if her provider knew, they wouldn't bring it up at all. to do so would be shameful.
      • Or, assuming health care workers that were substantially paid off by people who were in on the cover-up.

The Sunda TrenchEdit

MOVED FROM THE THEORY PAGE.

• Why was the faked 815 placed in the Sunda Trench, of all places? This isn’t a remotely plausible place for a Sydney to L.A. flight to be found. It’s like faking a lost Chicago to Honolulu crash near Bermuda. The Sunda Trench is thousands of miles northwest of Sydney. The plane should have been, would have been, and in fact was flying thousands of miles northeast. This fake would raise far more suspicions than it would allay. No pilots, no matter how messed up their instrumentation was or what kind of magnetic anomalies they encountered, could fly westward for hours thinking that they were flying eastward. If nothing else, the pilots would have noticed they were flying over the continent of Australia for hours instead of over the Pacific.

• We have no idea of the size/severity of the storm that caused the plane to go off course, so this line of questioning is mere speculation. If the storm caused the plane to be redirected north, it's plausible that it was instructed to make an emergency landing somewhere in Indonesia/China/India, etc.
• The motivation of the fake crash site seems clear: to keep others from searching anywhere near the true site. But it’s just too obviously wrong a fake to do its creators any good. They would have been better served to fake finding 815 near Fiji, which we know is where 815 was supposed to be near on its way to L.A. but in reality was 1,000 miles off course from when it went down on the island. That’s a safe enough distance, and it’s infinitely more plausible.

• However, the staged wreck had to be in some inaccessible location - such as the Sunda Trench - that made recovery (and later examination of the wreckage and bodies) of the crash nearly impossible. Otherwise, the ruse would be revealed as a fake.
• Ben (or whoever else is responsible) would not have been able to fake the crash somewhere closer to its original course for several reasons. 1) There are search parties being conducted along its original course, therefore a higher risk of being discovered. Remember, a fake plane with bodies isn't simply dropped into the ocean overnight. 2) It's more difficult to layout such an intricate design thousands of miles beneath the ocean than it would be somewhere like the Sunda Trench. The fake had to be easily findable as well as identifiable in order for the fake to serve any purpose. Deep beneath the ocean would be much more degraded, scattered, and thereby less effective to its purpose of convincing everyone that all of 815 was dead.
• The Sunda Trench, like all trenches, is DEEPER than the surrounding ocean floor. The average depth of the Pacific is 4,280 meters, compared to the trench's 7,725 meters.

Delete? Edit

I think this theory is worth deleting: "Kevin is Walt. We've seen Walt aging quickly. We know Walt has been brain washed. Walt has grown up to look just like his dad." It's just quite ridiculous and purely speculative. The reason why we have seen Walt ageing quickly is simple: kids of his age grow that fast.--Salvora 11:42, 17 March 2008 (PDT)

• It's gone.--     c      blacxthornE      t     15:43, 17 March 2008 (PDT)

• I think many of the theories/discussions deleted by Blacxthorne from Ji_Yeon/Theories should be put back on. I suggest we revert, and go from there? --Hugo815 16:50, 17 March 2008 (PDT)
  • I think you should think about what belongs to the theory pages. I always note on what basis I delete theories. If you're admitting that some of them are discussions, then you cannot suggest reverting those, as the theory policy says that all theory discussions should be on talk pages and not theory pages. I tried to move some of the discussions from theory pages to talk pages. Many discussions I deleted and chose not to move were discussions that pretty much sum up that the theory is not plausible or good enough to be on that page. Some of the theories that I deleted were redundant (usually mentioned in another section, or even in the same one). Some of them were responses. Many of them constructed as possibilities, and most of them were speculations, which, in both circumstances, are against theory policy as well. The thing is, theory pages should not include every single thing that pops to your mind. The theory page is still ridiculously long and I think I've deleted much less than I should have. But I'm trying to eliminate those that are obviously most delete-worthy. The rest I'm gonna leave to the pros. But of course, I am one person; please have a vote or at least a discussion about whether to revert the theories or not. --     c      blacxthornE      t     18:30, 17 March 2008 (PDT)

Here's an example of what you have contributed to the page:

The date is September 22, 2005, the anniversary of Jin's "death".

• So, even though Sun is more than 2 months pregnant on December 24, 2004, she's just having her baby a full 9 months after that?

• No, I'm suggesting Sun having her baby and the visit to Jin's grave don't happen at the same time.

This is a discussion. Let me remind you that the first entry was at first "I think the date is..." and was later changed. Then it has become a discussion which belongs to Talk:Ji Yeon/Theories. Here's the other one:

It would be impossible for any of the O-6 to fake their identities since their names and faces are so well known around the world.

I took your word for it. If it's impossible, it shouldn't be there. It's been talked about before, and it's probably a prop error which meant the evidence to support it was not reliable. And with evidence against it, it became a speculation. LP:TP

--     c      blacxthornE      t     18:41, 17 March 2008 (PDT)

• I think that the theory page should be kept clean and tidy. That theories should be given support. I agree that not anything that pops in one's mind should go to the theory page. And that discussion of theories should happen somewhere else. The theory page should just be a list of theories, for people to go through relatively quickly and easily. Discussion of the theories should happen somewhere else. --Salvora 15:39, 18 March 2008 (PDT)

Walt Edit

Should the theories as to Walt's whereabouts be deleted from this page? In "Meet Kevin Johnson" we learn that Walt is with his Grandmother in New York. While it might be possible for Walt to appear on the boat (or the island, or anywhere else), much of what is shown on this page is no longer relevant as we now know where Walt is, and whom he is with.--Mr. Squinty 08:42, 24 March 2008 (PDT)

• In truth, much of this theory page should be cleaned up, as we now know more of Michael's story after leaving the island, but before arriving on the boat. There certainly are several things left unanswered regarding how Michael actually got hired for the job, but much of what is posted is now irrelevant.--Mr. Squinty 08:51, 24 March 2008 (PDT)

Numbers On Jins Grave Edit

Through a series of math equasions. A friend of mind descoverd that the numbers can be worked out to equal.

4 8 15 16 23 42

I will post the equasions on thursday 10 APR 08 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by J3nk0J1 (talk • contribs) 2008-04-08T10:22:46.

Jin's Section Edit

Jin's section says, "Definately, Dr. Paik was replaced last minute by Dharma/Widmore/Others in order to save Ji Yeon, who would have died otherwise. "

Aside from the fact that "definitely" is spelled wrong, there is no Dr. Paik. Paik is Sun's father, not her doctor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zajoru (talk • contribs) 2008-05-20T18:53:12.

Feel free to remove bunk theories, or to edit them so they make sense. Please sign your talk page messages. Robert K S (talk) 22:51, 20 May 2008 (PDT)

Some removed theories Edit

We know it was Charles Widmore responsible for the staging of the crash. And we know Charles Widmore knew about the island because he was once there.

Who's responsible for it?Edit

• Whoever did it, it has to be someone who knows that the survivors are alive and on the island, but cannot find a way out. It is Ben, or Widmore. Both have a motive and means: They both want the world to never find out about the island, and are powerful enough to engineer something like that.
• Charles Widmore. He placed the wreckage because he doesn't want anybody to find the island, and he wanted the world to stop looking for the plane. He is lying about the fact that Ben would be responsible for that, because he wants to have the survivors on his side: their collaboration can be useful to find Ben. Michael knows that Widmore is lying and that he does not intend to rescue them, and thus warns Sayid and Desmond with the letter saying that Captain Gault is not trustworthy.

• Ben. He staged the faked wreckage and ensuing "discovery." Ben staged the crash so the world would stop looking for the plane. He did this to protect the secrecy of the island. He is also a man of extensive means, as indicated by Miles' initial reaction to him, his secret room with copious amounts of cash, and his apparently extensive international travel (in "The Economist," in Miles' photo, his many passports). And he also has associate off-the island (they kidnapped Locke's father, they recruited Juliet, they gather information on people worldwide, etc.).
  • Ben's financial means come from gold he found on the Black Rock.
  • Ben was also the one who hired the Christiane I to search the Sunda Trench, using some artifact from the Black Rock (or a map: "from the coordinates we pulled off of our guy's map" from "Confirmed Dead").
    • Ben has simply guided them to finding it via the emails sent to Sam Thomas.
  • Widmore found the wreck and discovered something about the flight recorder that indicated to him it was a faked wreck.

• The Maxwell Group (i.e. Widmore Industries), who funded the expedition.
• Captain Gault freely told Sayid and Desmond that Widmore was in charge, but implied it was someone else entirely who had the extensive means to stage the faked crash. This seems to indicate that Widmore didn't know how 815 came to be in the Sunda Trench. He obtained the flight data recorder to find out what happened.
  • During the "Find 815" game, everything about Oscar Talbot (who works for the Maxwell Group, which is a division of Widmore Industries) illustrates that the mission to find the Black Rock was just a ruse in order to get a civilian to find the faked wreckage of Oceanic 815--probably to make it appear less like something that was staged and more like an unplanned discovery. Oscar is not surprised in the least about the presence of the wreckage, but rather seems to be pleased when Sam finds it as if that was the plan all along. Although it's not known how much of "Find 815" is considered canon due to the discrepancies in how the discovery of Oceanic 815 was shown between the game and the TV show, I believe we can safely say that the connection between Widmore and the fake Oceanic 815 can be surmised. Now perhaps we'll find out later that certain people under Charles Widmore are operating as rogues (similar to how Thomas Mittelwerk operated independently of Alvar Hanso), but we'll have to wait and see.
  • The dialogue is very carefully ambiguous as to whether the cover-up deals with the placement of a plane and bodies or simply the discovery of said plane. The captain refers to 324 bodies, but also states that it was "faking the recovery of a plane crash," indicating that either the recovery was faked in part or the physical plane and corpses were also part of the deception.
  • The Captain is lying about the whole thing. The second plane is in the trench through some kind of teleportation or time anomaly, like the bunny from the Orchid orientation video. It is flight 815, but from an alternate universe.
    • Frank Lapidus confirmed (in "Confirmed Dead") that the pilot in the wreckage was not, in fact, Seth Norris. If we can assume Frank is correct, this suggests that the wreckage was faked.
      • And because Frank is aware of this discrepancy, it's possible this his presence on this mission is so that he will either be killed or left on the island in order to shut him up. Although one has to wonder why they didn't just put a bullet in his head already...
        • Frank is only there because hes a good pilot. Maybe even good enough to be special. He is just able to successfully navagate through the tempest/maelstrom that leads to the island where others would surely fail.
• Although there are other companies involved in the cover up orchestrated by Charles Widmore, it was Paik Heavy Industries that physically planted the false plane in the trench.

Sunda TrenchEdit

• Due to the electromagnetic nature of the island, the last radio transmissions from the pilot actually appeared to be coming from the Sunda Trench, thousands of miles off course, which led to the search actually occurring there. This is related to the pilot's lines in the first episode, where he talks about being a thousand miles off course, and that they would be searching in the wrong place.
  • What the pilot meant is that because they crashed thousands of miles off course, the search would take place on-course, and thus be searching the wrong place from where they actually crashed. If the search were being conducted in the Sunda Trench, there is no way Ben (or whoever else) would be able to fake the crash site there without being discovered.

Charles Widmore Edit

How did Widmore find the island? Edit

• Charles Widmore found out about the location of the island because of Desmond going missing during the boat race. Desmond's disappearance caused Penny and Charles to begin a search. Whilst searching for Des, Charles discovered information about the island. Therefore, to stop the plane crash victims' families from searching for and discovering the island, the plane crash was staged by Ben (ordered by Jacob).
  • After years of Penny crying over Desmond, Widmore's guilt for using Libby and the boat race to get rid of him got the better of him. He used his resources to set up subsidiary companies that were used as a front to find Desmond (like The Maxwell Group) and was successful in making contact with Ben. After finding out about what the island could do and realising he could exploit it for his own means, Widmore double-crossed Ben and kept what he knew from Penny, leaving her to continue trying to make contact with the vague coordinates she was last given, while Widmore's workers were told to ignore and block her calls.
    • Ben and Widmore worked together until Widmore found out about "the purge" and was disgusted by Ben's actions, severing the partnership and swearing to apprehend him for his crimes.
      • Unlikely that Ben and Widmore worked together, because that would also imply a link between Widmore and Hanso. But if there were a link between Widmore and Hanso, then Widmore would not have had to bid on the Black Rock journal at an auction, he would have simply have gotten it from the Hanso (family).
        • There is a link between Widmore and Hanso. The journal was owned by a member of the family, not by the Hanso Corporation; that's why Widmore had to buy it. Check the theories page about the Black Rock journal.
        • The Hanso Foundation headquarters is located in the Widmore Building.
      • Widmore is not the type of man consumed by guilt over his daughter's estranged lover. The video Ben has of Widmore in The Other Woman shows that he is pretty ruthless.
        • We've seen lots of characters display very contrastive sides: violent or even homocidal one moment, vulnerable and sympathetic the next. With aslittle as we actually know about Widmore, it's probably unwise to characterize him based on a single event.