Talk: Fate versus free will

Theories[]

Regarding Free Will, The DHARMA Initiative and the current state of The Others[]

The Lost Experience suggests that The DHARMA Initiative failed. This may have been the horror of horrors for the original team; if the equation factors cannot be changed, then this may be evidence that Free Will may not exist.
Plan B for The DHARMA Initiative became, "If we can't change destiny, can we survive the inevitable instead?"
- And that is what The Others are now - a cradle for humanity after everything else fails on Earth. An ideal, well supplied, mini-society that serves as a failsafe.
  - This would explain Ben's "come hell or high water" insistence on finding a way for humans to reproduce on the island.
  - Evidence of The Others' good health and physical strength suggests that they may be been chosen for their physical qualities - they are Good People.
  - Arrival of the Losties represents an opportunity and a danger - the Losties may be good additions to their group. Or they may contaminate it.
Not all The Others believe in this Plan B and hold out hope that free will DOES exist but may admit that it might be very rare. Finding individuals that may possess the capability of free will is an ongoing effort. Immediate scrutiny of the Losties arrival may be evidence of the intention of finding candidates.
- The reason for Skinner Box experiments on the Losties may be an effort to discover people who can make decisions uninfluenced by environment, which may be evidence of Free Will.
The founding of the original DHARMA Initiative was intended to be a multi-discipline effort. To have conflicting ongoing research initiatives to find a solution - any solution - would not be incompatible with the original mission of the initiative.
- But this doesn't mean that it is easy for The Others, thus the friction between Julet and Ben.
- Even Fate and Free Will may not be incompatible - fate brought the Losties to the Island but some may have Free Will anyway and be able to influence the core values of The Valenzetti Equation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malic (talk • contribs) .

Pictures[]

A nice picture to add would be a screenshot of Charlie wearing the word "Fate" on his hand in "Fire + Water". This happens during the dream sequence when he finds his piano in the ocean. --Dagg 15:37, 2 January 2007 (PST)

Thanks for finding where this reference happened. Don't the bandages in his nondreams say "LATE"? I know you are right on the "FATE" part in his dream, though. I'll ask around with the usual crowd that supplies us screencaps. --Pandora X 09:23, 3 January 2007 (PST)

Also LATE spelled backwards is "ET AL" which is Latin for "and others." --User:Downclipse 14:52, 16 February 2008
Lost Soul provided it, and I added it. Looks nice now. --Pandora X 10:41, 6 January 2007 (PST)

Looks great :).--Dagg 10:54, 6 January 2007 (PST)

Luck[]

"Tricia Tanaka Is Dead" has brought up some themes about LUCK which I guess would fit here. Does luck fall more under "fate", "free will" or does it deserve it's own subsection? --Jackdavinci 11:41, 1 March 2007 (PST)

Rename[]

yes-On the themes and lists nav bar, this article is refered to as Fate vs. free will, which I think it's a more suitable name for it, because that name draws more attention to the vs. implying the strong contrast of fate and free will on the show. Unlike that, having versus instead of vs. makes it look like a proverb or a sentence, and not like a title.--Orhan 94 02:43, 16 October 2008 (PDT)
Disagree: I don't see any reason to rename. -- Sam McPherson T C E 12:05, 2 November 2008 (PST)
Disagree: There is no need to have abbreviations in page titles, just have the proposed title simply as a redirect. 72.148.42.192 01:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Agree. I think vs. just looks better, and is more recognized. -- CTS Talk Contribs 18:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Agree – btw: are anonymous contributors entitled to vote? --DerAndre ^(talk) 03:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Disagree. I do not see the point since they mean the same thing, the only difference is one is an abbreviation and do we really need an abbreviation for a title?Wild ste 15:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- And we really don't need an abbrevation for a title, beacuse of what... Orhan 94 22:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Because of the reason I said, it means the same thing but one is an abbreviation. Why change it?Wild ste 16:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

DECISION : No consensus. Personally though, does it really matter? Someone could type in versus, vs., vs, v. or v, and all mean the same thing. The use of the word is versus is full, encyclopedia and correct and directs can be used for the other variations. Plkrtn talk contribs email 15:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Jacob[]

--Jaiotu 09:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC) Shouldn't there be some discussion of Jacob regarding the "Free will vs Fate" issue? The fact that Romans chapter 9 tells us that "God loved Jacob" and is one of principle arguments regarding the debate between predestination and free will in Christian theology is at least an interesting observation. In that passage, we read:
"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." - Romans 9:10-13

Powerful Moment In Season 5[]

In the episode Whatever Happened, Happened, starting around 15:00, Jack and Kate get in an argument about whether or not Jack should save Ben. At one point, Jack says "When I was here before, all I wanted to do was fix things. But did you ever think that the island just wants to fix things itself? That maybe I was just gettin' in the way?" Of course, this is an important scene in terms of Jack and Kate's relationship, but that's irrelevant. Jack's quote is all about destiny; course correction. On another page somewhere, I saw a theory that Jacob and the MIB represent free will and fate, respectively (not to say that those are the only things they symbolize). And it seems to me that the MIB is trying to fix the island itself, and Jack does get in its way. It seems like Jack was unconsciously on Jacob's side for the first four seasons of the show, but at this point in the fifth season, he's strayed towards the MIB. --Patches124 08:29, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Reorganization[]

I think we can do a lot better than this. A chronological list of times people have said the word "fate" - followed by a (separate!) chronological list of times people have mentioned free will? I'm going to work at categorizing these examples into themes. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 13:24, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Heinz dilemma[]

I moved the following entry to karma. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 18:29, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Heinz dilemma. Richard literally reenacts this famous psychological test of moral reasoning by stealing medicine that he can't afford from a doctor to cure his sick wife. In a clever twist, the doctor is accidentally killed and Richard's wife dies anyways, suggesting that fate may be the mechanism at work. ("Ab Aeterno")

On second thought, it has a very tenuous link to karma. Fate may be punishing Richard for stealing medicine, but there's no way to know. The dilemma itself probably deserves mention somewhere, but it has nothing to do with fate vs free will. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 18:32, April 3, 2010 (UTC)