Contents 1 The Timelines coming together 2 Material removed prior to airing 3 Touching and Agelessness - false Assumptions 4 Illana doesn't age material removed because based on incorrect facts 5 Moved: Jack did something to the fuse for the dynamite before he lit it to cause it to fail to ignite the dynamite 6 Moved: Locke could not have committed suicide off-island 7 Moved: Richard's ulterior motives 8 Technology Reference for time placement 9 Further discussion on a Possible Timeline Split 9.1 Counter Evidence removed 10 Illana doesn't age 10.1 Evidence For This Theory 10.2 I think this theory might have something in it! 10.2.1 Discussion of Alternative Dating 11 Candidates - who knows what, and what does it all mean? 12 Candidates By Choice 13 Removed: Jacob can't be trusted anymore 14 Removed: Why Has Widmore Come to the Island? 15 Partially removed: Those touched by Jacob become immortal while on the Island 16 The Submarine (Removed, Stub left) 17 Leslie Arzt 18 Candidates - Discussion 19 Moved - Jacob's Gift and the Rules 19.1 Second Removal: Jacob's Gift and the Rules 20 Removed From: Gifted people (and Jacob and MIB) can only be killed when other Gifted people Choose to kill them 21 The 6th Candidate 21.1 Material removed from the Candidates section 21.2 Removed: Richard is a candidate 22 Edit links 23 Jacob and Fate

The Timelines coming togetherEdit

At the start of Season 6, it was stated that "about a third of the way through the final season, the timelines come together", and a single timeline emerges. Well this week is the 7th episode out of 18, and by the end we will be well over 1/3 of the way through. The writers have done exceptionally well so far to show us small snippets of the FS Timeline without actually giving any real clues as to whether this is a flashback prior to 815 crash, a reset due to 1977 events, a flashforward to what happens after the 2007 timeline ends, or whether it is occurring simultaneously with the 2007 timeline or something else: a dream, a simulation or a fantasy. In this episode, which seems to be Ben-centric, we should get some answers. Watch out for the following:

1. Was this Ben ever on the Island? (ie does the FS timeline connect with the OT timeline at all?)
2. If so, when did he leave - how and why? (gives a latest date for the island's demise)
3. Was he taken to the temple and doused in the pool (ie was he shot by Sayid, and saved by Richard) (establishes whether the Losties were ever on the Island in this timeline)
4. What happened to his father? (establishes the extent to which events are 'converging', and whether the strange notion of patricide which has been a recurring theme, is still valid in the FS)

Can't wait. We haven't seen enough of Ben this season.--Sean Sheep 23:48, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

• This episode proves that the time lines are separated a lot before the Hydrogen Bomb explosion. In the original time line, Roger Linus was shown on the island at the time of the explosion. In the FS time line he had already left the island, and the way he wishes that he were still on the island with ben indicates that he is unaware of any hydrogen bomb explosion latter on. Maybe there wasn't even any explosion in the FS time line. Mominshahab
  • I cannot see how you can argue that this episode proves that the lines were separated before the explosion. It is not stated anywhere that in the FS he had left by the time the bomb incident occurred. I think you are assuming that the bomb went off, and therefore if he were on the island, he would have been killed. However, there is still no evidence that the bomb actually caused the demise of the island. There is evidence, however, for Roger Linus removing Ben from the island. He was shot by Sayid, RRoger Linus became very disillusioned with the DI, and these were the events that triggered Roger Linus to take his son from the island; a subsequent incident (i.e. the one referred to in the Swan Orientation video) is the one which fractured the timelines.--Sean Sheep 11:08, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure about this. Roger seems to regret not staying in the Dharma Initiative in the FST. I doubt this would be the case if Ben was shot there. --Domokato 01:51, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • We don't know what happened to OT after "juliet hammering the bomb". Maybe the dharmies just saw a bright light and nothing happend, maybe they only saw the losties disappear in front of their eyes, and that's the "incident". They felt too scared and decided to abandon the island.
    • I agree. Sorry for jumping onto conclusions. But then it is plausible that the island didn't drown because of the Hydrogen Bomb. Mominshahab 17:07, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Material removed prior to airing Edit

The episode is about Benjamin Linus

• Speculation about the centricity of an episode is either a spoiler OR is so blindingly obcvious it is not worth saying; take your pick.
  • Super-Spoiler Alert - this episode will feature Ben. :) (Jack Dutton 19:17, March 8, 2010 (UTC))
  • Yeah, this episode's title is so Ben specific that it being Ben centric is obvious enough we don't need to say it. --Golden Monkey 20:11, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Touching and Agelessness - false Assumptions Edit

Much of the theory page is a to and fro about the effect of being touched by Jacob. Sadly most of it is based on an incorrect reading of the episode. Nowhere does Richard say that being touched by Jacob causes people to be ageless and only subject to death at another's hands. Nor does he anywhere give any clues about the effect of touching off-island or about what touching involves at all. What he DOES say is that HE was "touched" by Jacob and it is considered a gift and that his "gift" (which for him has become a curse) is that he is ageless (the corollary being he cannot die by his own hand). The context probably makes sense of this. You find an ideal, able and willing helper. Lets just keep him forever - or rather till the "plan" is brought to fruition. Why train or even try to find a different one. And furthermore you only need ONE of these. "Gifts" to others will be different.--Charles Kane 10:10, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well, false or not, it is a valid assumption that Jack even makes in the scene. And it might be supported by the dynamite not blowing up Jack, making him equal to Richard/lucky/also gifted in a similar if not equal way as Richard. The fact that we know of two people touched (and "gifted") by Jacob implies that the other people so touched might be of similar disposition, and I believe it's valid to at least theorize if so (even if others like you want it removed).--Tim Thomason 10:36, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

• You may be right about Jack. But you almost certainly not. Jack makes it absolutely clear why he is taking the risk and it has nothing to do with having a gift. And surely that is the whole point of of the scene. But that does not change anything. The Canon evidence that we have about agelessness is from Richard - the ONE person (real person) that we know to have this gift and he doesn't even imply that others may or even could have this gift/curse - everything else is speculation, so when it appears as the basis for a theory that theory fails.--Charles Kane 13:31, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Charles. People all to readily jump in with assumptions which then turn into unshakeable conclusions which then seem to be taken for granted as fact. We have seen very little evidence of what the "gift" might entail. Richard is clearly ageless, and "thinks" that he can't be killed. (loads of evidence to support the fact that he "thinks" this). However, is Jack's "gift" the same? One of the Kwon's was touched by Jacob (and is a candidate. Does touching = candidateship? - we have no idea!); however Ilana thinks that whoever is the candidate needs protection. Last week we had a whole load of stuff about MiB not being able to kill candidates. Therefore, who is Ilana protecting the candidate from? Presumably other candidates? Non-candidates? Polar bears? Then why isn't she protecting the other candidates? And why on earth didn't she tell anyone this on the plane when she had the chance, prior to getting on the island before all hell broke loose, when most of the 6 candidates were there? As Kate once said "welcome to the wonderful world of no knowing what the hell's going on".--Sean Sheep 15:12, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Illana doesn't age material removed because based on incorrect factsEdit

I removed this because it was mainly discussion not positing a theory and because it is based on incorrect fact or assumption - see my note above /\ Evidence Against This Theory

• Richard says that the reason he doesn't age is because Jacob touched him. When Jacob visited Ilana on a sick bed last season jacob was wearing gloves. It seems like he was making a conscious effort not to touch Ilana so she doesn't have the "gift" or "curse" as Richard calls it.
  • Neither Richard, Ilana, nor Jacob say that "touching" involves physically 'touching' someone. "Touching" could be construed as many things, including all off Island encounters with primary characters, or Candidates
  • Richard actually says that the gift of being touched by Jacob prevents him and others who are touched from killing themselves. He says nothing about the touch causing his lack of aging.
  • Jacob touched John Locke on the shoulder quite firmly after he was pushed out the window by his father. Look where Locke is now. Hardly seems like a gift. Then again maybe it was all part of the plan. Locke's plane crashes and he walks again.
  • She had some pretty bad burns. Jacob was probably just not trying to make them hurt by touching them. They already seemed to know each other, maybe plenty of opportunity for him to touch her in the past.

--Charles Kane 10:26, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Moved: Jack did something to the fuse for the dynamite before he lit it to cause it to fail to ignite the dynamiteEdit

No evidence offered at all - moved off theory page to here

• We saw all the moments leading up...so there is no reason to believe this.
• He made the fuse longer knowing that he needed more time to talk to Richard.

--Charles Kane 10:30, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Moved: Locke could not have committed suicide off-islandEdit

Not a theory because it is impossible to prove one way or the other as the event is passed (ie the attempted self hanging) and the character is now dead! Furthermore where is the link between touching and agelessness/no suicide. Richard simply said HIS gift was agelessness. Se my spiel above. Below is the removed material:

• Since John Locke was touched by Richard he would not be able to commit suicide. Even if he had tried to hang himself off-island it would not have worked and would have made for some great footage last season.
• I do not see any correlation between being physically touched by Jacob, or his proxies, and an inability to die. To not know whom Jacob is, definitively, obscures interactions between him and current occupants of the island.

--Charles Kane 10:38, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Moved: Richard's ulterior motivesEdit

Speculative and lacking any evidence to support arguments. At the top of the theory page authors will see a guide - also on the right a list of items that allow removal. Authors should consider these and maybe use this talk page to get a discussion going to find some support for their ideas.

Richard really wanted to kill himself so he could speak to Jacob.

• Richard is another person that is loosing faith in Jacob (like Dogen), and that's why he wanted to suicide (the rules of his gifts don't let him). Michael Shepard is the person in charge of guiding them (Shephard of the lost).
• I think he wanted to be killed because he thought that Jacob lied to him. He also said to Hurley and Jack to not believe what Jacob says because he thinks he was also betrayed by Jacob. The incidence with Jack and the dynamite might have changed his disbelief in Jacob. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charles Kane (talk • contribs) .

As stated above, a discussion has been started (or attempted to), regarding whether Jack is proof enough of the viability of these theories. While I haven't participated in the theorizing itself, the talk page isn't being ignored (However, I have no idea where "Michael Shepard" is from and am glad that is removed).--Tim Thomason 10:58, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Technology Reference for time placementEdit

I noticed that the principal's laptop in this episode is very old. It looks like something from the 1990s (I used to own a similar one). The events of the episode seem to be happening in 2004 or later, but maybe this is a clue to show that they are happening 10 years sooner. If so, I'm not sure what affect this has on things, but it sure seemed intentional to use that old laptop.

Schnuerle 12:54, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

• some geek will have an answer down to the month of manufacture. But if its a dinosaur its because the school is running on a shoestring and is using a Dr. to babysit losers.--Charles Kane 13:35, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
  • They made it pretty clear that the school was not being showered with money. I mean I know it's cool to see brand new things on TV all of the time, but considering they were trying to re-create a worn-down pretty average high school, then having a laptop that's older is probably pretty accurate.

Further discussion on a Possible Timeline SplitEdit

The above heading on the theories page is, imo, a terrific elucidation of an ongoing theory. It is such that once I started reading it all issues of qualification as a "proper" theory for the Theory article immediately fall away. All the schoolmaster pettiness that I exhibit above becomes irrelevant. A compelling relevant issue is considered; lots of evidence internal to the series is offered; and a conclusion (actually a set of conclusions) is drawn. I don't say this as a fan club or something (I'm not 100% sure as to the author) but as an example that we all should aspire to. That way we will have great theory pages and not a heap of discussion and argumentation.

As my interest is principally the drama offered by Lost and I'm not a great theorist, I wonder if anyone else has a critique of the Timeline split theory? --Charles Kane 13:52, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

I have: I have pointed out earlier that this theory does not explain the existence of Hugo and Sun in both time-lines. But if we put the split-point at much earlier date, it would make easier to explain many other events, like bomb exploding and not exploding, Ben leaving and staying, Ethan Rom and Goodspeed, etc. Or if both realities existed at the same time always (and never). But we still don’t have enough evidences. --V-vk 17:10, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Counter Evidence removed Edit

• All this theory is rooted on the firm belief that the timeline "split" in 1977 as a result of the bomb going off. However, several different facts hint that the split occured sometime before:

• Richard said that once Ben was healed in the Temple he would become "one of us" and would change forever. However, FS-Ben is a well ajdusted man with a great relationship with his father. Roger's considerations on having left the Island sounded like he simply quitted because feeling out of place. He wouldn't sound very regretful of having left if he almost had lost Ben and had to go through all the ordeal that the Incident day was.
• FS-Locke seems to be in good relationship with his father, meaning that Anthony not only did not try to kill him but also didn't con him out of his kidney. This may be hinting that Anthony Cooper didn't follow a life of crime and decpetion and in the original timeline, which may be supported by FS-Sawyer's brightful demeanor (Perhaps his father never killed his mother?)
• Most calculations give Jack's apendoctomy as having happened prior to 1977.

Reply from Sean Sheep:

• First off, the theory assumes no such thing. Read it, it clearly says there are two theories, one of which says the bomb went off in 1977, the other of which says it doesnt.
• Secondly, whatever Richard says is clearly null and void if the island is destroyed. In addition, what you are seeing is what you want to see. Ben in both timelines is tortured. He does what he did in OT because of the island AND regrets it. In FST, he is clearly capable of Machiavellian ruses, but thinks better of it. This is the same Ben, the same person. He is no different in either timeline. The producers are making a point here about people doing things because they think they are expected to, or they are told to - the Nuremberg Defence. The fact is, we are ALL capable of such things as Milgram's experiments and The Stanford Prison Experiment demonstrate.
• Thirdly, FS Locke's deal with his father is part of the evidence. It took place after 1977, when the timelines diverged. This is not inconsistent with the theory
• Finally, "most calculations" Whose?? As far as I know I am the only person on this wiki doing detailed and meticulous calculations about things like Jack's appendix scar, and while the evidence is ambiguous for all sorts of reasons, the appendix scar must be prior to December 1978. It can however have occurred as early as 1974. Where is the 1977 date from?--Sean Sheep 13:56, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Reply from poster of "Counter Evidence" I quote, with emphasis mine: "This theory is an update to this attempt at dating a possible split in the timeline, following the events of Dr. Linus. So far, the theory has concluded:

   * There was a single timeline existing up to "Fracture Point", after which the FS-Timeline & the original Timeline diverged.
   * The Fracture Point occurred sometime during the period July 1977 to December 1978." 

That was what made me immediately post the counter argument, starting with pointing how nothing can be given as "concluded" and that there may be reasons to believe the fracture happened at a different time.Maokun 02:29, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• • I still have no clue as to why you think I have a "firm belief" that there was a timeline split in 1977 as a result of the bomb going off. The two points you quote as evidence for me thinking that say no such thing. Point A says that the theory postulates (my belief is irrelevant), that (a) there was a timeline which split, and (b) it did so between July '77 to December '78. It is YOU that is assuming I think that means it was the bomb what did it. It doesn't say that ... at that point. In fact I propose two alternatives. If you don't like the bomb idea, ttake the other one. If you don't like that idea, come up with an alternative.

• • • Allright, perhaps the wording in my first reply threw you off and I haven't been able to make myself clear yet. The point I'm debating is not wheter everything is comsequence of the bomb or not, but rather that whatever happened made the "fracture" occur in that window of time. Personally (and all the evidence I presented was to point that) now I have reasons to believe this fracture occurred at a point earlier than 1977 and we can hardly say that this date "it's concluded". And it's begrudgingly that I point this myself as one of my pet theories dangles from several things happening in 1977.Maokun 02:29, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• • • • Perhaps you are not familiar with proof structures. I am a mathematician. It must be pretty obvious reading my stuff but most people don't really understand proof. Mathematicians deal with conjectures from which they derive certainties. You start off with assumptions which could be true or false. If the assumptions are true, then the conclusions will also be true. However, if the assumptions are not true, then the conclusions might be true, or they might be false; we have no idea. A "conclusion" is simply a statement derived from the assumptions; just because it's called a conclusion, does not mean that I think it's true. Let me give you an example. If you are living on a flat surface, you can "conclude" that the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees. If you are living on the surface of a sphere, then your 'triangles' are bent, and you can "conclude" that the angles add up to MORE than 180 degrees (e.g draw a triangle from N pole to equator, go along the equator and back up to the N Pole. The triangle has two 90 degree angles plus whatever angle is at the N Pole) You answer all depends on what you assume in the first place. I lay out what I am assuming quite clearly, and my assuptions are things like: "Ethan's history was the same in both timelines". I accept that this might not be true. However if it isn't, it generates a whole raft of issues leading you into some very improbable scenarios. I use Occam's Razor to say "why generate extra explanations you don't have to?" This analysis is not easy, and catually you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg here.--Sean Sheep 14:33, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• • • • • Allright, I get your point now. Thanks for the informative and polite reply. Maokun 12:41, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • I welcome criticisms of my theory, and possible alternatives. If you have been reading any of my posts on the theory pages, I have been trying for weeks to develop a theory that is consistent with the idea that the bomb was a dud in 1977. However, the more I try to explore it, the fewer corners there appear for such a theory to hide. I am rapidly running out of options. The truth is, I don't want to believe it, but reluctantly I am being forced to.--Sean Sheep 17:33, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

• • • It seems like a lot of stock is being given to the "fact" that Ethan Rom and Ethan Goodspeed are the same person. Perhpas they are two different people with the same mother. If living in the same timeline, they would be half-brothers. There may be evidence counter to that idea. I'm basically a casual observer.Bob O. Link 21:00, March 16, 2010 (UTC)Bob O.Link

Alternative Dating:

It could all be much simpler: both realities already existed before Ben got to the island; it is possible that Ben and his father exist in both realities same way as do Sun and Hurley, which are both born post-incident. So, Linuses left the island in one reality (where there were no time-travelers), and stayed in another reality. This would also explain how the incident was different in both time-lines; but will put the split point at much earlier date.

• I agree, it would be simpler, and nicer. However there is an issue with this. In the FST, Ethan exists, and Ethan only exists because his mother was rescued by Sawyer. That means in 1974 in the FST, the Losties were on the island, rescuing his mother. If Ben had left before 1977, then what happens to the events of the Incident? We have seen that Sayid shoots Ben. This means (a) the split occurs between 1974 and 1977. We have seen no possible cause for this(doesn't mean it doesnt exist, but it does make it unlikely as an explanation) and also (b) There would then be two Bens, one off the island, and one on. We would also have two sets of Sawyer, Miles, Juliet, Jin and Faraday. Clearly when Jack, Kate & Sayid travel to 1977, they are reunited with Sawyer et al, in the universe which contains Ben on the island. What then happens to a possible Universe containing Sawyer et. al which has no Ben on it? Since we have already used up out "split the timeline" card, we can't do this agian, and this means that the 1977 island with Sawyer & Jack must be the same as the 2004 Crash universe. i.e. the bomb does not explode at all. What then? how does the island in the other universe end up at the bottom of the sea? Remember, no Jack, no Juliet, no Kate and no reason for Sawyer to want to get off the island. He won't do it; Juliet won't. Miles was never convinced. Faraday would need to return and detonate it himself? Faraday on a one man mission....OK, these things are possible, but they need a hell of a lot more contrivances to make them work. There is one thing though that I think would put the kaibosh on the whole "Faraday detonated it himself theory". In the OT, he got killed by... Eloise, the very persona of "the universe course corrects". This would be the ultimate irony for the producers to pull, that the one character that everyone has been quoting in the "course correction" stakes is actually the very character that proves she has been talking complete rubbish all along. A nice touch, but there is now so much evidence stacked up FOR course correction as a notion, I don't think it's gonna happen. In addition, we know "the time travelling season is over", and your notion requires another bout of time travelling to explain to the audience what happened. --Sean Sheep 17:33, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
  • • that is all right. but, i still believe that "the island" does not exist in FS. as i proposed somwhere, time-lines are actually chains of events, and they are relative. by that i mean relative to a prticular individual. one can experience time differently fom another, especially when affected by island's bended time flaw. this way Ben's time-line could split in, say 1973, but Jack's in 1978 and Sun's in 1988. note, Roger did not specify the island - it could be "an island", not necessarily the one we know. Eloise is working to place all the events in right order. --V-vk 23:36, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
      • But we do know for fact that the island exists/existed in the FS universe. We saw it at the bottom of the ocean with the sonar fences and dharma barracks
        • the facts we have: we saw dharma houses on the botttom, a dharma shark and a foot that looks very similar to the statue; and we have heard Roger mentioning an island. that's all. it is possible that the "island on the bottom" is staged, a fake, like a fake plane was on the bottom, and Linuses were with dharma on an island, a different one. --V-vk 03:34, March 11, 2010 (UTC)
          • that's like saying we don't know jack is jack or ben is ben or water is wet on the show because it COULD be something else. i know it's lost, so even the improbable may be possible, but what we see on the bottom of the ocean is about as definitive as it gets about being THE island until there is something specific to suggest otherwise....aside from the fact that Cuse indicated in a TV Guide magazine that "the island is at the bottom of the ocean due to the explosion." --User:Jeffcutt72
    • "However there is an issue with this. In the FST, Ethan exists, and Ethan only exists because his mother was rescued by Sawyer. That means in 1974 in the FST, the Losties were on the island, rescuing his mother."

See, this is what I'm talking about, you are following a circular logic: Because the events in the Island up to 1974 happened as they did, any changes can only happen after that date. But there's a simpler way to approach it: What if Etan wasn't born in the Island in this timeline? FS-Roger's consideration on their leaving the Island sound as if he quitted early, Horace might have as well. We've seen that the past of several people has been changed for reasons yet to know, though I'm inclined to believe it's because the direct and intent intervention of someone. In other words, we cannot assume that any of the characters' past we've seen happened exactly as we saw them happen.Maokun 04:57, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• • OK, I agree. Ethan doesn't need to be born on the island. BUT, if you deny this, you have to create a whole other 'alternative scenario' about Amy not being on the island before, her husband being killed, Horace leaving the DI, and setting up home with her (when they haven't even met) , all of which requires a whole load oif storytelling to unravel Ethan's history. I started along this avenue because I was convinced by the following argument: Ethan is not an important character, and the writers would not have rewritten an entirely new back story just for the one hit of having him in the hospital to scare the bejeezus out of Claire. They knew his back story simply because he was born on the island in 1977, clear & simple (says so on the popup), BUT, in doing that they have then exposed the fact that this event occurred in both timelines. Look, I coukld be wrong but I don't think so. If you are right, and there is a back story to Ethan, then believe me, the whole flash-sideways thing requires a hell of a lot more explanation, not just for Ethan but for all the Dharma & Other characters. For example, your contention that they all upped & left, requires FOUR separate theories:

1. The split in timelines occurred before 1974, before the losties arrived. What was the event that caused the split and why? (and more to the point, where is the evidence that this occurred, and why have we not seen anything about this?)
2. What was the reason the Dharma people all "decided" to leave, independently?
3. Given that the timeline split occurred prior to the decision to leave, they were all still on the island, what event caused the island to sink, when and why? (and why did this event not occur on the other timeline?)
4. How is it that Amy lost/left her husband, then subsequently took up with Horace after they all left the island?

You see what the problem is... you deny one little bit and suddenly you have to start inventing a whole load of other stuff, a lot of which is 'artificial', 'speculative' or based on wild contentions, and oten runs counter to the evidence, and we need to start inventing things like "well, they could have left and met anyway, it's possible...", yes anything is possible, but this is about what's likely. I am trying to seek out the most probable explanation here, and as far as I am concerned, This is the best we have so far. --Sean Sheep 14:06, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• • • You make a strong point here, however there's a fifth and, sadly, more probable theory: The writers just wanted to cause the shock you talked about when seeing him next to Claire, and they are not planning to explain the exact reasons why he's there (in the same way I'm not really expecting to get an explanation why Dogen + son are not in Osaka and Russeau + Alex in France or abroad in some expedition,) so his presence here canno be used as a very solid evidence for any theory. Maokun 12:41, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

Illana doesn't ageEdit

• Illana, much like Richard doesn't age. It would be very unlikely that Jacob could truly have played a father figure to her in the relatively short time she would be alive if she aged normally. Much like Richard, Illana also will eventually be seen to have similar 'gifts' that Richard spoke of.
  • This logic doesn't make any sense. Jacob living an unnaturally long time doesn't preclude him from being a father figure to Illana. While she was growing up, he would have stayed approximately the same age, but could have been there to guide her none the less.
  • Illana is Alex. They both have strong physical similarities. The island is full of time related discrepancies. No set time for the current "present" year has been revealed. Illana's(Alex's) pursuit of vengeance concerning Ben's killing of Jacob is especially understandable since the last words Alex heard were of Ben (disingenuously) declaring his lack of feelings for HER(Plus all of the angsty teenager stuff). Her sudden relenting after Ben explains his guilt and subsequent regret, is explained by her knowledge and appreciation of what the island TRULY is. "Jacob is the only father I have ever known" = "My 'so-called' father(Ben), who I know wasn't REALLY my father, let me die at the hands of mercenaries." = "Ben was no REAL father to me." Illana heard the truth from her "father", and having matured saw his remorse and forgave him. Vis-a-vis: Illana: Where will you go? Ben: To Locke. Illana: Why? Ben(In tears): Because he's the only one that will have me. Illana: I'll have you.
    • Alex was shot dead and is buried. This makes no sense.
      • Time and space are "relative" on this island. She was not buried(would it have mattered?). I hate to be cinematographically questioning, but those "tarps" look older than 3 years of UV radiation exposure. She was,supposedly, killed, but **** many who have died have been seen again, obviously MIB has been other people, people can't leave, and then return to the island, except for Ben, the SIX, and Widmore, plus what is the REAL plot of LOST?
      • As a whole that is.

Evidence For This TheoryEdit

• Jacob has been busy 'doing work' in order to bring people to the island, making it hard for him to build a concrete relationship with someone in a normal life span. If she were around for an abnormally long amount of time the relationship could have built slowly.
• Off the island, Ilana was in the hospital with what appeared to be near fatal injuries. Something happened to Ilana that would have killed her had she not been "gifted" like Richard Alpert.

• • I have removed this for 2 reasons.
  • Firstly, the theory that Ilana doesn't age is not logical, as the counter to it proposes. Secondly, it is clear that the evidence from the episode concernimg immortality is about those whom Jacob touches. However, please note carefully

“

It should be noted that, while Jacob made a point to make physical contact with the other cast members during their flashbacks, he seemed to go out of his way to specifically not touch Ilana, wearing black leather gloves when he visits her.

”

(Jacob's visit to Ilana)

• • If he is giving her immortality, why is he wearing gloves and not touching her?--Sean Sheep 14:45, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
    • Gloves or not, touching is touching. Jacob touched Locke on his shirt and Hurley on his shirt ass well. I doubt Jacob's powers are blocked by simple layers of leather or cotton/poly blends. Krasenicsjr 17:18, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
      • Think Jacob touched Hurley near the sleeve of his shirt, not the ass. --InTheLoop 00:13, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• • • • • So that makes Sun the Kwon candidate, because her wedding dress had her arm exposed? No wonder Jin's always nagged her to stay buttoned up!! ;) Seriously, Jacob's touch on Locke through his clothes (plus the coincidental awakening) should put this aspect to rest.

Meanwhile, we're not even shown any contact by Jacob (nevermind the gloves) at the hospital, but the scene was obviously important to show - she agreed to help him. The depth of inside information about the Island's layout, use of ash & the Monster's forms/faces, names of candidates & other people who could aid her like Miles - this points to a very lengthy briefing by Jacob. We're not shown any of this, but the source could only be Jacob. Although we're not shown a moment of contact, *if* we're presented with evidence Ilana shares a gift or is bound by rules of this game, Jacob would be the source. But we're not quite there yet. I think it's very telling that MIB did not attack Ilana as Smokey, but tried to manipulate Ben into killing her. She appears to be well in the game but for now we need more dots to connect. Duncan905 22:39, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I think this theory might have something in it!Edit

• In Pushing Daisies, Ned has the gift to bring people back to life if he touches their corpses. If he touches them again, he kills them.
  • Irrelevant. In Rainbow bright they all represent colors. I think Jack might be purple.
• If we look at Jacob's behaviour with Ilana it is extremely strange. He goes out of his way not to touch her. This could be because one touch = immortality; another touch=death.

This is a possible reason he refused to speak to Ben: he 'touched' Ben once before (Temple pool), but never speaks to him again, because that might kill him. This would then mean that Locke was killed because he was killed by another "immortal", in the same way that Dogen needed to get Jack to kill Sayid. But Jack can't kill Richard (another immortal), because he would be killing himself (not allowed?)

• Jacob did not talk to Ben because he knew Ben was not the right candidate for the job. Miles said it himself that Jacob really wanted to be wrong about Ben. I took this as Jacob hoping that Ben could prove himself to be the candidate that he had been looking, and tried to give him every chance to do so, but having in the end, failed.

To be honest, I don't think we have seen enough of these "rules" to form a theory, and in any case, what I want to know is "why are there all these damned rules anyway? Gods don't operate under rules, neither do magicians or beings with advanced technology. The only thing that operates nunder rules are subordinates and programmed devices. Jacob is clearly not a subordinate(?), so is he a programmed intelligence that is operating under a version of Asimov's laws of Robotics?.--Sean Sheep 15:01, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of Alternative DatingEdit

This theory from the Dr. Linus/Theory Page purports that there are possibly two islands or the same island with different properties. I think Roger's comments to Ben support this idea:

• Roger wonders what their lives might have been like had they remained on the island. He says this in the context of comparing Ben's dismal situation currently so that it's reasonable to assume he thinks he and Ben would have had a better future if they had remained on the island,
• If the island had disappeared in a disastrous manner he would not have said this
• Furthermore, Roger's comment indicated a freedom to remain on or leave the island at will (arguable I realize but I believe this can be inferred from Roger's wish and because Ben does not object to his father's wondering by saying "But that wasn't a possibility."
• The island from the OT was closely guarded and virtually kept secret from the outside world, so much so that workers from Dharma had to be drugged on the submarine trip.
• At some point in the OT it became necessary to move/hide the island from Widmore
• An island with properties so special that Widmore can't find it for years despite all his resources is not the same island that Roger would feel he and his son could travel freely to and from.

I realize this is not a fool-proof theory but as soon as Roger had his conversation with Ben it struck me that something about the Dharma Roger worked for in the OT and the Dharma he worked for in the FST did not sound the same to me, leading me to believe it is because the island and it's properties which Dharma and the eventual Others who came from Dharma lived on were not the same.--Destinedjourney 19:29, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

• This is a story about what WAS, what IS, and what COULD HAVE BEEN.

• "If the island had disappeared in a disastrous manner"; I agree, if he knew about it.
• I also agree with you other conclusions; however, I am not sure where that gets us...--Sean Sheep 22:02, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Candidates - who knows what, and what does it all mean? Edit

• Ilana and her team all appear to know about Candidates. They do not necessarily know who is a candidate and who isn't.

“

BRAM: Why'd we even bring this yahoo? ILANA: Because, we might need him. BRAM: For what? He didn't know the answer to the question. ILANA: That doesn't mean he's not important. BRAM: What, you think he's a candidate?

”

The Incident, Part 1

• However, in Dr. Linus, Ilana appears to know much more:

“

Sun approaches Ilana asking how long they are to stay there and explaining she needs to find her husband. Ilana explains if anyone wants to find Sun's husband it is her. Sun questions this and Ilana says it is because Jin's last name is Kwon and she doesn't know who she is "supposed to protect, you [Sun], him [Jin], or both of you". Sun asks what she means and Ilana says they are candidates to replace Jacob. She states when the replacement is chosen, they will find out what the vocation entails. Sun asks how many candidates there are, to which Ilana replies grimly, "There are only six left."

”

• Dogen knew about Candidates, but he may not have known who they were.

“

JACOB: Tell him you can do what you want. Tell him you're a candidate. HURLEY: I'm a candidate and I can do what I want. DOGEN: Who told you that? [Hurley exchanges silent looks with Jacob.]

”

Lighthouse

• Richard did not know about Candidates

“

RICHARD: Why do you look like John Locke? LOCKE: I knew he'd get me access to Jacob. Because John's a candidate. Or at least he was a candidate... [They both stand] RICHARD: What do you mean? What do you mean a candidate? LOCKE: Didn't Jacob tell you any of this? RICHARD: Any of what? LOCKE: Oh, Richard... I'm sorry. You mean, you've been doing everything he told you all this time and he never said why?

”

The Substitute

• MiB knows about candidates, who they are and what they are for:

“

LOCKE: Because, you're a candidate. SAWYER: Candidate for what? LOCKE: He thought he was the protector of this place. And you, James, have been nominated to take that job.

”

The Substitute

What can we conclude from all this?

1. Jacob has been planning for candidates for some time, to replace him. He therefore knew he was going to die.
2. Richard did not know about candidates, and we can presume Ben did not either. If Ben knew there was a candidate to replace Jacob, and Jacob knew he was going to die, then killing him would have been fulfilling Jacob's wishes, and Ben would not have been so emotionally drained in Dr.Linus
3. MiB Knows that Jacob is planning for a candidate to replace him; he knew Jacob was going to die, and furthermore, he knew Jacob knew he was going to die. Somehow this does not affect the "loophole"
4. Dogen knew about candidates. He therefore knew that Jacob was going to die, and clearly was prepared for it. (rockets). He also knew that Sayid was a potential if not actual candidate, becuse of the list given to Dogen by Jacob in LA X, Parts 1 & 2
5. All known Lostie candidates were 'touched by Jacob' (possibly only one of the Kwons). Ilana was not touched in the scene in the hospital, Jacob wore gloves.
6. The touches go back to 1976, to Sawyer's parents' funeral. Clearly either Jacob was time-travelling, or as early as 1976 he had started to select candidates. In either case, he has been planning his death & replacement for a long time.
7. Jacob knew Locke was about to fall from a window when he saved him; he therefore knew the future, but nonetheless he touched him. Locke became the vessel for MiB, and the means by which Jacob gets killed. If Jacob is planning his own death, this must be part of the plan.
8. Jacob meets Hurley in 2007, and gives him a guitar case, which contains the names of candidates. As he knows Hurley can talk to the dead, and Jacob can see the future, he must be aware of when & how he will die, and that Hurley is the only one who can take this message to Dogen.

So,

• Jacob knows he is going to die as part of the plan; so does MiB; however, there must be a trick involved here. The trick can only be that Jacob getting killed is part of a normal cycle of death & rebirth; he will rise, phoenix like in the body of a candidate. That is his plan. However, MiB must thinks that by doing what he has done, he has done away with Jacob completely. However, Jacob has pulled a fast one, because whatever MiB did, it did not fully kill him.
• MiB thinks that Ben was leader, and he tricked his way into see Jacob, by pretending to Richard that he (MiB) was leader. MiB then got Ben to kill Jacob, expecting to kill him dead. In fact Ben was not leader, someone else was (Dogen?). Therefore Jacob is not completely dead, but MiB thinks he is; that was why he was so surprised to see the young boy (Jacob).

Finally. Jacob is still alive & kicking, but MiB thinks the coast is clear. The question is: "Who exactly is the leader of Team Jacob?", because if this analysis is right, that is the only person who can kill Jacob; by the same rules, whoever is the leader of Team MiB, they can kill MiB dead. completely.--Sean Sheep 20:17, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

• the plan for a replacement through the selection of candidates may not indicate a knowledge that Jacob was going to "die". Whatever it is there is something decidedly non-human about Jacob and "die" might well be inapplicable to J. He may well have made a choice to move on to other projects at some point having enabled the opportunity for a bunch of "lost" humans to realize their true humanity and their ability to "choose". MiB could be part of his plan (tho an unaware part), the same plan which Richard is so saddened by its loss. Apart from Js active ongoing participation in the lives of the Losties ("The Lighthouse" ep) I have always been troubled by Jacob's incorporeal aspect. When stabbed and rolled into the fire his body was reduced to ashes pretty well instantaneously. Doesn't this trouble anyone? (as an aside - how Miles can read his death imprint unless he really is human - beats me).
• I'm also troubled by an ongoing assumption - including in Sean's write up here as to the effect of "touching". What we know is that J's touch can pass a gift. Richard's gift was agelessness and partial immortality (but that was particular to J's needs of a longtime helper on the Island) . We also know as a matter of likelihood that J touches those who are to be candidates. But we do not know that this touch also bestows a gift other than candidature. I'm betting it doesn't and that all the rules being suggested as applying to our Losties are non-existent. Whatever SF/Spiritual stuff is in this show - at it's heart it is about flawed humans like us, without any superhuman powers or gifts navigating their way through life without an instruction book. In other words - lost. --Charles Kane 00:25, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• • Problem is, I believe what I am told. MiB says he was a man. I think that's probably right. I also think Jacob was a man too, at one time. Clearly he can be killed also, even though it seems like a trick needs to be involved. However all this ghost stuff bothers me too, as do all these seeminglay arbitrary rules. "I just think you make all this stuff up, Richard."--Sean Sheep 01:10, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Candidates By Choice Edit

Jacob did not chose the candidates but the candidates chose to become candidates for Jacob. The Alternate Time line will show that all main characters will meet Jacob and will come to an agreement to change their course of lives (for any reason). "The starting point ofcourse would be the plane crash."

This was removed from the main page because:

• The "alternate timeline"... has a starting point of the plane crash. But there WAS no plane crash in the Flash-sideways timeline.--Sean Sheep 21:16, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

"The starting point ofcourse would be the plane crash." It's poorly worded, but a valid theory: All the candidates in the FST will learn of the destiny they cheated and freely choose to go back to 9/22/04 and crash on the Island. Of course, they're all different people in the FST: not as broken, perhaps. What would happen if everyone who crashed on 815 was pretty happy and untroubled? Totally different story, right? I guess it's not actually a theory, but more of a prediction. --Emissary23 07:24, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

Removed: Jacob can't be trusted anymore Edit

• Richard told Hurley to not believe anything Jacob says. That's because MiB is impersonating him
• Jacob can be trusted. Richard said this because he lost trust in Jacob and believes Jacob was never worthy of trust.
• Richard only said this because he was simply unhappy with Jacob and no longer trusted him after he (Jacob) died, leaving Richard feeling as if his life on the Island was a waste. This would be rectified moments later when Jack reinstalled faith in Richard.

• Removed because the theory as to trusting or MiB is Jacob has no supporting evidence at all. The rest which is discussion merely sets out what we know - and so also contains no theory. I didn't remove it for the reason that this is also illogical but it is that too. --Charles Kane 04:21, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Removed: Why Has Widmore Come to the Island?Edit

I can't find a single supported theory here, eg "He has come to join "the war." - that is not a theory, that is an idea, most of these items are like that - just assertions of ideas - in fact all of them are that (except the last) - and all lack any evidence at all. --Charles Kane 04:34, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• He works for the MIB and the submarine is how the MIB intends to leave the island.
  • Doubtful that MIB/Widmore are on the same team recalling the fact that the smoke monster wiped out much of Widmores boatcrew in season4 led by Keamy
  • Highly unlikely MIB can leave the island in such a simple manner - otherwise he could have done so ages ago.
  • MIB is heading for Hydra Island (Ajira plane?), Widmore is arriving at the main island. Widmore's submarine may provide transportation for the MIB to Hydra Island (but then again MIB may just board the submarine and be done with all of it!)
    • Although Jacob only died recently, only making him free and able to leave now.
• He has come to join "the war."
• To reinstate himself as the leader of the others and protect the island.
• To replace the MIB since Ben is staying with Jacob's team.
• To exploit the power of the island, just as he's always wanted. He's been in league with the MIB for many, many years and now that the MIB is free he has contacted Widmore to exchange possession of the island with the way off of it (the sub)
• Widmore has always known that he is a candidate, so he has come back to fulfill his destiny.
• Widmore has come to join forces with MIB and end his fued with Ben by killing him. Widmore convinced Locke to return to the island because MIB needed his body. MIB was trying to lure Ben to the other island because Widmore was going to kill him there. It is actually Widmore who will once again protect/control the island after MIB leaves.
• He reacted to "the nightmares" by renewing his pledge to Jacob and enlisting Eloise's help.
• He reacted to "the nightmares" by joining MIB and co-opting the Lamppost from Eloise.
• The crew member on the submarine asked if they should stop since there are people on the island. Widmore replies "No, proceed as planned". This suggests that either he has come to destroy the island, or they are about to surface the submarine at that point.

moved here --Charles Kane 04:34, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Partially removed: Those touched by Jacob become immortal while on the IslandEdit

I have extracted some highly tenuous theory stuff with supposed evidence and left it on the theory page. Most of this is removed here because it is nothing more than discussion, that is it is response and therefore removable (see the description and plea at the top of the theory page). Such discussion and argumentation with claim and counter claim should be argued out here and a clean and supported version of a theory should stand alone on the theory page. Let's give our readers a break. --Charles Kane 04:44, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• None of the 6 candidates have changed their appearance while on the island and Hurley is a prime example of this. Kate and Sawyer being touched as kids could just mean that the candidates age in the outside world, but won't on the island.
• Considering that both Jack and Richard are unable to kill themselves it is suggested that they now have much more in common. It is also likely that all the people who have been touched or chosen by Jacob share the same characteristics. It would then be proven that fate's intervention is capable of overwriting this rule.
  • Jack was stopped from jumping off the bridge by a car accident, and the dynamite failed to explode while in the Black Rock.
  • Jin survived the Kahana explosion (There's No Place Like Home, Part 3, The Little Prince)
    • Jin surviving the Kahana explosion had nothing to do with killing himself. Nothing definitive about this logic.
      • "Immortal" means "can't die," not "can't kill oneself."
  • Michael failed at multiple attempts to suicide
    • True, but Jacob never touched Michael.
      • Not something we know for sure.
      • Exactly. Just because we haven't seen something on-screen doesn't mean it didn't happen. Are we supposed to assume that the show has shown us every person Jacob has touched?
  • John Locke was stopped from hanging himself, only to be killed by Ben
  • Just because they can't kill themselves doesn't make them immortal. It is much more likely that they are ageless now. We've seen Richard fear for his life before (when Faraday had the gun pointed on him in Follow the Leader).
    • Yah, but Kate and Sawyer were touched when they were kids, and they still grew up into adults.
    • Richard was not fearing anything personal, he was likely just trying to control the situation. He knew he wouldn't die, but had no idea if anyone else could get hurt just like any other situation when guns are involved. He even stated to Eloise that she should have known Richard was not going to get shot.
  • Nothing is explicitly said about Jack being unable to kill himself. He is trying to disprove what he believes to be predetermined fate.
• Is it really "immortality"? When everyone has served their purpose, it appears that they can kill themselves if they wish. Also, Richard said that he cannot kill himself, but Jack could do it for him. Seems like immortality is the wrong word to use. It is really a more unique gift than that - and more self serving for Jacob's purposes.
  • I suppose I chose the word immortality poorly. I meant more along the lines of them being incapable of dying as long as they were still needed to further the cause (and incapable of suicide UNLESS it furthers the cause). Charlie and Michael could both be considered suicides and both were candidates, so likely both were "touched" by Jacob. Both chose the cause over themselves. It's likely the suicide rule only applies when the subject is acting with selfish reasoning.
    • He merely said "a" gift. The gift doesnt have to be the same for everyone. eg, Richard = Immortality. But it will be a different gift for somebody else, ie could be the reason why Hurley can speak to the dead (I dont know if Jacob touched him)
      • But Hurley could speak to the dead before Jacob touched him

The Submarine (Removed, Stub left)Edit

Speculative and lacking any evidence to support arguments. Better here. I propose to remove the remaining theory too because the glimmer of evidence it presents is so thin --Charles Kane 05:57, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• Wallace, candidate 108, will be on Widmore's Submarine.
• Desmond will be on Widmore's Submarine.
  • Aaron and/or Walt may also be on the sub.
• Eloise Hawking is on the sub.
• MIB somehow contacted Widmore and now that Jacob is dead, he was able to direct Widmore back to the island. He has offered Widmore control over the island, just as he offered Ben a similar deal.
• The submarine is the MIB's intended way off the island.
• The submarine is the MIB's way of getting to the Hyrda Island.
• The submarine is the Galaga, which Locke faked destroying.
• Daniel Faraday is on the sub and helped guide Widmore.
  • Daniel Faraday is dead in this timeline.
    • Daniel Faraday was off the island for much longer than three years when he left in 1974. Daniel stayed off the island until he thought he knew how to fix the incident, then time traveled back to 1977 to return to the island with other Dharma recruits. Therefore, Daniel is still alive and guided his father to the island.

Leslie ArztEdit

• Why haven't we see him blown up in a funny way? He repeatedly remarks the "old laboratory instruments" as we could expect him doing some experiment that leads to his death.--Stabilini 15:10, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Candidates - DiscussionEdit

Please Keep discussion here - not on the Theories Page. That is designed solely for a Reasoned Theory backed up by evidence fron Canon source. Not for refutations, arguments or the like.--Charles Kane 23:22, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• The six candidates, that Ilana mentions, are the six candidates that have were stated above [8 (Reyes), 15 (Ford), 16 (Jarrah), 23 (Shepherd), 42 (Kwon) and 51 (Austen)] there has been no evidence to suggest otherwise that I have seen. Sayid being "infected" probably has no baring on his candidate status, neither does sawyer and kate's current choice of traveling companion effect their status. Wallace was crossed out and is only a coincidence that this name was by 108 (it could have said any name only the number was important). The writers used 108 to continue the theme of certain numbers that appear throughout the show and because jack would have to pass by 23 to get to 108 and thus see his house.
  • Sayid being infected doesn't change his candidate status? That seems presumptuous - it clearly affected Dogan's willingness to protect him. However, I am not sure if Ilana knows that Sayid is infected. So to her, he may still appear to be a candidate.
    • Well conversely what I was trying to say is that it seems presumptuous to me to assume that Sayid's infection does effect his Candidate status. But as you say we are debating what Ilana said and she may not have all the facts. But WE know that 16 (Jarrah) was a candidate on both the lighthouse and cave who was not crossed out and therefore a Candidate and WE also know Ilana knows that Sayid killed Dogen. So my conclusion is that Sayid remains a candidate, at the very least in Ilana's eyes. There have been many redemptions and falls from grace in lost.
    • Any assumption that Dogen trying to kill Sayid was part of Jacob's plan is groundless. Perhaps the others in the temple are just doing what they think is best to protect the island. ie. Killing or banishing sayid because he is "infected". We know that the note hurley's guitar case Ankh contained, said something along the lines of, if Sayid dies then they are in a lot of trouble. What if that continues to be the case? This means it was very important that Jack chose not to give Sayid the poison pill and that Dogen did not kill Sayid in the Tea garden/office. Sayid still has a part to play for the side of good in all this.

Moved - Jacob's Gift and the RulesEdit

This is the entire material from the Theories page on this subject. Most of it is discussion (responding to another theory), and much of it is speculative. It is all worthy of further discussion and in fact needs it badly because the original so-called theory about rules can now be seen to be very very thin and barely supported either by evidence or argument, but rather a set of guesses. But I have left the pared down version on the Theories page. --Charles Kane 23:40, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

• The Rules seem to deal with Jacob's "Gift". According to these rules, Ben was never touched by Jacob, unless upon killing him, he touched him and was granted this gift.
  • Rule #1: A gifted individual is incapable of killing one's self.
    • Richard and Jack's "dynamite" scene. Jack not jumping off the bridge. John Locke not hanging himself.
    • Does anyone think that Michael's 4 failed attempts at suicide are related to the gift? Was he touched by Jacob at some point?
      • That is the logical conclusion. Once he fulfilled his 'goal', he was allowed to die.
        • Though it's worth pointing out that Michael was told he could "go now" by Jack's Dad, not Jacob. Michael could have, somehow, been one of MIB's "chosen ones".
        • Perhaps Christian's claim that he can speak for Jacob is true.
          • It is interesting to note that both Christian's body and Yemi's body were missing from their final resting places (the coffin and the airplane, respectively); while Locke's body was still in the crate it came in. We know that Yemi was the Smoke Monster, perhaps this is evidence that Christian is as well. Also, it may also explain why MIB is "stuck" in Locke's form - Locke's body was never missing and is eventually buried.

• • Rule #2: A gifted individual is incapable of killing another gifted individual.
    • Sawyer and Jack's numerous fights. Jack's attempt to shoot Locke.
      • If "gifted individuals" couldn't kill one another, then why did Dogen give the poison pill to Jack to give to Sayid? It seems more likely that ONLY gifted individuals can kill other gifted individuals.
        • We have only heard a narrative of Dogen's encounter with Jacob. We never saw the actual scene, so it is unknown if Dogen was actually touched by Jacob and therefore "gifted". Based on the fact that other known "giftees" have been unable to kill each other, it could be deduced that since Dogen was killed by Sayid, a known "giftee", he is not gifted. Perhaps he thought he was gifted and that's why he was unwilling to directly kill Sayid.
        • It actually makes more sense that only 'gifted' can kill other 'gifted'. Jack could kill Richard (but didn't), Jack could have killed Sayid (but didn't) and so on.
          • To complicate things, Dogan gave Jack the pill with the intention that Jack give it Sayid without knowing that it was poison--in fact, thinking it would heal him. Another loophole in that Dogan would not have directly given the poison to Sayid, Jack would have given it to him not knowing it would be murder, and Sayid would have taken it not intending to commit suicide. Dogan only told Jack it was poison when asked point blank what it was.
          • If that were true, Richard must have known that Jack was "gifted" for him to have any reason to ask Jack to kill him. He doesn't know that. And even if he did, he would know that Jack couldn't kill himself! So he wouldn't have told Jack he were taking a risk by staying and seeing if they got blown. Ergo he doesn't know Jack is gifted and thus you don't have to be in order to kill another gifted person (or Richard wouldn't have asked him to do).
          • Doesn't this make sense though that Jacob is a proponent of fate/predestination? Jack had the choice to leave the Black Rock and let Richard die, but he was fated to not do so. Jack could have given Sayid the pill and unknowingly killed him, but he was fated to go with his gut feeling and confront Dogen about it.
    • We don't know that this rule is valid. Jack couldn't kill Richard with the dynamite because Jack never left, therefore Rule #1 would apply because he'd be killing himself. If Jack had left, the dynamite may have exploded and killed Richard.
    • It maybe that a "gifted" individual can not kill another, doenst mean they cannot kill / be killed. MiB is gifted as is Jacob, this is why the MiB had to find a loophole (Linus Killing Jacob). also Dogan giving the pill to Sayid via Jack etc etc
    • Jacob's goal in imparting such "gifts" to people is to make it difficult/impossible for candidates to eliminate one another. The only way they can be weeded out is by other forces at work, e.g., non-gifted individuals, MiB, accidents, etc. This seems to be a means of identifying the strengths of his potential successors. Jacob's goal isn't to make people fight to be his successor.
    • This would make Widmore and Ben "Gifted" -- From Widmore and Ben's conversation in Widmore's bedroom: "Benjamin, Did you come here to kill me?" Ben-"We both know I can't do that".
      • Incorrect Ben killed Locke
        • And by what evidence do we have the Locke was ever "Gifted" in the first place? That's possibly a major assumption we are all making here. John Locke was "resurrected" by Jacob when he was touched, but that doesn't mean he was gifted by Jacob.
    • In the final episode of season 5, we see that Locke was touched by Jacob after his father pushed him out the window. However, what evidence do we have that Jacob touched Ben?
      • • I think it's been clearly stated that Ben is NOT gifted. And Richard stated that if Jacob touches you, he gives you his gift. Kind of like the Midas Touch.
          • Being able to walk after crash landing on the island seems like a very valuable gift. (moved from main page --Charles Kane 16:33, March 12, 2010 (UTC))

• • Rule #3: The Man in Black cannot kill a gifted individual.
    • He is apparently not allowed to kill Sawyer for any reason.
      • I don't think he wants to kill Sawyer. If he kills him, he can't use him.
        • He was explicitly reminded by the boy in the jungle that he could not kill Sawyer. To which he responded "Don't tell me what I can't do!" implying (a) his emphasis on free will and (b) his desire to bend/break the rules.
  • Rule #4: The Man in Black cannot be killed by a gifted individual.
    • Sayid is incapable of killing him.
      • It seems more likely that Sayid wasn't able to kill the MIB because the MIB spoke to him first (which Dogen warned against).
      • Perhaps the MIB can only be killed by a gifted individual, and Sayid's inability to kill him proves that he had already been "infected" by the MIB when resurrected and no longer was a candidate.
    • It is of interest that Hurley is the last person to be touched by Jacob, AFTER they had left the Island.
      • Sayid was touched after they had left the Island as well.
        • Hence, last person touched
          • Sayid was touched by Jacob in 2005; Hurley was touched a day before boarding Ajira 316.
    • Most likely, Jacob cannot be killed by a gifted individual also. We have no evidence that Jacob has gifted Ben -- therein lies the MiB's loophole.
    • According to the candidates page, a "Linus" was on the list of candidates at one point. Assuming this was Ben, he may have been gifted. The interesting point to me is that his name is crossed out. As best as I can reconcile, that seems to relate to the fact that he left the island by turning the wheel. It was stated that if you turn the wheel, you can never ever come back. Perhaps that statement was just an inept attempt to keep people from returning to the island after turning the wheel because turning the wheel gives up one's candidacy. Ben's breaking the rules in returning was the actual loophole. He was one of Jacob's candidates who broke one of Jacob's rules and thus was able to act outside of the rules. He was the specific one that MiB had to manipulate. I've no idea how the intervening details may be explained within the Lost mythology, but this situation ties up a few plot points.
      • Nothing says that a candidate has to be a "gifted" individual. All "giftees" are candidates (except possibly Richard?), but not all candidates are "giftees".
    • Ben is " the LoopHole " because after he was shot by Sawyer and Kate took him to the others to be saved, Richard told them that he will be different if successful, thus he would no longer be eligable to be a candidate , his gift/curse would be " the loopHole" being able to kill Jacob and or MIB.
    • Ben was the "Loop-hole" because he is a human being and a once potential candidate (linus written in cave and on wheel) that made the conscious decision to kill Jacob out of his own volition and free will. The loop-hole as it were is simply humans freedom of choice. which is why Jacob stated the fact to Ben just before he was stabbed. MIB couldn't kill Jacob directly but if a candidate chose to do so that person could. Ben is simply the one MIB has chose and been able to manipulate into doing so.
      • Sayid was also saved in the fountain, which would make him a 'loophole' too and he would be able to kill MiB, which he obviously can't.
        • After Jacob's death Lenon and Dogen seemed upset by the murky waters of the spring when they brought Sayid into the Temple, and seemed really shocked by the fact that after 2 hours the dead Sayid set up alive, so It seems that the spring had a different effect on Sayid.
    • But the MiB manipulated Ben also before. For example taking form of other dead people. Or claiming he was actually Jacob when both Ben and Locke went to Jacob's hut. So I think, Ben was a loophole candidate for the MiB long before the wheel was turned by him.
    • Ben is the loophole, and as such can kill Jacob and/or MIB. This is why MIB went to such an elaborate end in convincing Ben to obey him.
    • Ben and Widmore refer to having to play by the rules implying that maybe they are both gifted. Or perhaps this is just a coincidence.
• I thought it was interesting to find out the canidates were meant to replace Jacob. Since the MiB is seen in the form of Locke, could it be that Jacob's only logical replacement be Jack? It would make sense. In previous season Jack and Locke seemed to have issues with each other concerning power.
• I don't think that only gifted people have to follow the rules. Mikail and Bea Klugh have a conversation about the rules just before he shoots her and thus far we don't have any proof that they were candidates or that Jacob gave them any kind of gift. Illana also states that there are only 6 candidates left but it seems that all people on the island are still bound by the rules regardless of gifts or abilities.

Second Removal: Jacob's Gift and the RulesEdit

I have removed this entire discussion. It appears to based on the assumption that we know who is gifted and who is not. Nowhere in the theory is it clearly stated who is gifted and who isn't, nor is there a method for deciding. Therefore the theory is not useful, as it cannot be checked against facts. I presume that the author thinks that Jacob's touches are sufficient to 'gift someone'. While this might be true, it is not consistent with the theory as outlined below:

1. Jack and Sayid were both touched, therefore presumably gifted
2. Dogen asks Jack to kill Sayid because he (Dogen) can't do it. Since Dogen presumably knows what the rules are, he is asking Jack to break rule 2.

Now, one of two things is the case:

• Either the rules are all wrong, OR
• Jacob's touches do not necessarily gift people.

In either case, this entire theory needs a rethink.--Sean Sheep 11:30, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• The Rules seem to deal with Jacob's "Gift". According to these rules, Ben was never touched by Jacob, unless upon killing him, he touched him and was granted this gift.
  • Rule #1: A gifted individual is incapable of killing one's self.
    • Richard and Jack's "dynamite" scene. Jack not jumping off the bridge. John Locke not hanging himself.

• • Rule #2: A gifted individual is incapable of killing another gifted individual.
    • Sawyer and Jack's numerous fights. Jack's attempt to shoot Locke.
    • This would make Widmore and Ben "Gifted" -- From Widmore and Ben's conversation in Widmore's bedroom: "Benjamin, Did you come here to kill me?" Ben-"We both know I can't do that".
      • And if we are assuming Ben is gifted because of this conversation with Widmore, the problem lies in the fact that he was able to kill Locke, who, we are assuming, was also gifted.

• • Rule #3: The Man in Black cannot kill a gifted individual.
    • He is apparently not allowed to kill Sawyer for any reason.
    • He was explicitly reminded by the boy in the jungle that he could not kill Sawyer. To which he responded "Don't tell me what I can't do!" implying (a) his emphasis on free will and (b) his desire to bend/break the rules.
      • It is not explicit that the boy was talking about Sawyer.

• • Rule #4: The Man in Black cannot be killed by a gifted individual.
    • Sayid is incapable of killing him.
    • According to the candidates page, a "Linus" was on the list of candidates at one point. Assuming this was Ben, he may have been gifted. The interesting point to me is that his name is crossed out. As best as I can reconcile, that seems to relate to the fact that he left the island by turning the wheel. It was stated that if you turn the wheel, you can never ever come back. Perhaps that statement was just an inept attempt to keep people from returning to the island after turning the wheel because turning the wheel gives up one's candidacy. Ben's breaking the rules in returning was the actual loophole. He was one of Jacob's candidates who broke one of Jacob's rules and thus was able to act outside of the rules. He was the specific one that MiB had to manipulate. I've no idea how the intervening details may be explained within the Lost mythology, but this situation ties up a few plot points.
      • Linus may be referring to Ben's dad, Roger Linus. He's dead.
        • Linus may have been crossed out because Jacob realized that Ben wasn't good enough. Hence one of Jacobs last thoughts, according to Miles was that he was hoping he was wrong about Ben.

• All "giftees" are candidates (except possibly Richard?), but not all candidates are "giftees". Nothing says that a candidate has to be a "gifted" individual.

• Ben is "the LoopHole" because after he was shot by Sayid and Kate took him to the others to be saved, Richard told them that he will be different if successful, thus he would no longer be eligible to be a candidate , his gift/curse would be " the loopHole" being able to kill Jacob and or MIB.
  • Ben was the "Loop-hole" because he is a human being and a once potential candidate (linus written in cave and on wheel) that made the conscious decision to kill Jacob out of his own volition and free will. The loop-hole as it were is simply humans freedom of choice. which is why Jacob stated the fact to Ben just before he was stabbed. MIB couldn't kill Jacob directly but if a candidate chose to do so that person could. Ben is simply the one MIB has chose and been able to manipulate into doing so. Ben is the loophole, and as such can kill Jacob and/or MIB. This is why MIB went to such an elaborate end in convincing Ben to obey him.
• Miles tells Ben and Ilana that up until the moment Ben stabbed Jacob, Jacob hoped that he was wrong about Ben. This could very well mean that Ben was once a candidate and Jacob had potential plans to reinstate him as a candidate.
• The "Rules" don't relate to who can kill who. The island decides if an individual can die (or be killed). Walt's Dad having found this out several times.

Removed From: Gifted people (and Jacob and MIB) can only be killed when other Gifted people Choose to kill themEdit

None of this has any bearing on the supposed theory, and is mainly a useful summary of views about Fate and Free Will (MiB v. Jacob), it also is not particular to this episode and is clearly in the nature of a discussion so I moved it here, where it can be deleted when the cleanup occurs! --Charles Kane 07:36, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

• The Man in Black seems to have special rules in this case. Why he couldn't kill Jacob even if he wanted, he (as the black smoke) killed many people, but before analyzed them to see if their death would serve of anything.
  • Jacob is a proponent of Fate; whatever happens was meant to happen. While they have a choice to kill one another, they were fated to not do so. Jack could have chosen to leave the Black Rock and let Richard die, but he was fated to stay behind. Jack could have given Sayid the poison pill, but he was fated to question Dogen about it. While one appears to have a choice, the fact that they do not make one choice is something that is fated.
    • We do NOT know that Jacob is a proponent of Fate. His repeated instructions to Ben, candidates, and others implies he is a proponent of Free Will with his emphasis on "choice" and "progress" with the MIB. If MIB represents Fate i.e. "it all ends the same..." and Jacob represents Free Will, than perhaps Jacob can be killed when one chooses to kill him like Ben but MIB can only be killed when one is destined...This would explain why Dogen insist that Sayid not talk to MiB before killing him.
• Maybe the MIB has been in charge of The Others all along while Jacob is left to just nudge them along their way. I mean, Widmore and killing babies? Who does that unless they’re under the influence of pure evil? Ben and how he treated the 815’ers? Sadistic and manipulative, just like MIB would have him be. Also, the MIB said he hated Jacob and wanted to kill him for bringing people to the island. This may have been because MIB has to work on these newbies to get them to kill themselves off when MIB would rather sit on the beach and drink beer. Maybe now the balance is shifting from MIB-worldview to Jacob-worldview and MIB is doing everything he can to stop it.

• I removed the whole lot, not because there was not a theory lurking around underneath, but I was not exactly clear how this was supposed to work.

My main objection to the theory as it stands is this: How are you supposed to determine whether or not a character has chosen to do something? There is no clear flag in the narraticve that says "Sayid is now choosing to do this", or "Ben is now not choosing to kill Jacob". This can only be inference at best, probably speculation, and at worst just an invite for people to clutter the page with counterarguments.--Sean Sheep 11:16, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• Ben was able to kill Jacob because, as Jacob told him, he had the choice to do kill him or not.
  • Counter Argument: Ben did not have a choice either. MIB tricked him into it so he was not going to do anything against what the MIB said.
• Sayid wasn't able to kill MIB because he didn't really choose to kill him, he was just doing what Dogen told him to do.
  • Counter argument: he chose to do what Dogen asked. It wasn't like the moment Dogen opened his mouth he suddenly had no free will.
• When Ben killed Keamy, he chose to kill him, and by doing so the whole crew from the Kahana, that is why Michael died but Jin didn't.
  • Michael dies because he had completed everything the island needed of him (as the apparition that appeared to him said just before it exploded)

The 6th Candidate Edit

• These following points are why the 6th candidate is still a mystery.
  • Jack, Sawyer, Hugo, are confirmed candidates.
  • It has been heavily implied that the name "Kwon" is either Jin, Sun,(but not both) or their daughter.
  • Jarrah is confirmed to be Sayid and even though he possibly infected the Man in Black didn't cross off his name when he was in the cave and he did plan to turn Sayid to his side.
  • It can't be Kate since it has been confirmed by the producers that she has been crossed off on the cave wall and also that the cave and the lighthouse were supposed to be identical and that the difference's between the two was a prop error.
  • And there was some strong foreshadowing going on when Ilana told Sun there was 6 candidates left.

Moved here from theory page as it contains no theory.

• Item regarding Kate is news to me - does the author have a reference for this claim, I understood that Kate's name was not crossed in the Lighthouse by which we ARE meant to believe she is a candidate.

--Charles Kane 02:03, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Material removed from the Candidates sectionEdit

I think I have pulled out the main arguments in the material remaining. I have removed duplicates, although there is still some duplication remaining. The speculation below that people like Miles & Lapidus are candidates just because they happen to be on the beach has been removed, as this does not seem to make a whole lot of sense. When Ilana said 6, they were not at that time on the beach, and Ilana does not know whether Jin or Sun has to be protected, so the fact that Sun is on the beach does not necessarily mean anything. In any case, Ilana, Jack, Hurley, Richard, Sun, Miles, Ben and and Lapidus are on the beach. By my reckoning that makes eight.--Sean Sheep 12:38, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

I have further edited this article on the Theories page as I found Sean Sheep's edit lacking. That said I think the theory reached is the same but I tried to separate what Ilana knows (or has found out) and what we know a little better. I lean at the moment to her excluding Kate which would create another wild card. However the very fact that it is likely from a dramatic pov that we know ALL the candidates makes this less likely. I'm happy that the Miles, Lapidus and Rose suggestions have been left out because of the complete lack of evidence. --Charles Kane 14:00, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• I know you don't like sub-headings Charles. I wondered about this after I had finished, but I then got distracted with other stuff. I am not actually sure anymore after I wrote the preamble whether it is possible to sustain a theory that Ilana's list has somehow been "revealed" to her by Jacob. There are only minor differences anyway between the two lists, and it should really be possible just to merge this back again into one theory, with the possible aside that now that Ilana suspects that Sayid is infected, he may no longer be on her list. That leaves open the possibility of an unknown candidate.--Sean Sheep 14:55, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• I'd give it "headings" if it needed them but it's a Theory and some points of evidence , then a cr.p second theory - really doesn't need anything elaborate. I left in the 2nd theory tho really since it is completely unsupported I wouldn't like to justify it's existence. I left it to try and avoid discussion about Jin, Kate and Sawyer but I doubt it will have that effect. Probably won't know in a few hours either cause they seem to be running everything in alternate weeks. That might mean a bit more about Sawyer and Kate and Jin and Claire though. --Charles Kane 16:14, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• Much better now. You are doing a sterling job. I seem to have got waywayway too distracted by blogs about the island being conscious and arguments about split timelines.--Sean Sheep 16:20, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

That is either 5 or 6 candidates. There is no reason to think Ford is excluded as Ilana is unaware of his actions or whereabouts (as are we) and we have no evidence as to his exclusion either. Traveling with MiB has not been shown anywhere as a point of exclusion. (If it is - one of the Kwons is out too, and Austen etc)

• • Kate's name:
• Ilana is speaking based on out-of-date information. Jacob is dead so she can't communicate with him, & the MiB who is her enemy would hardly share anything he knew.
• Lapidus, Miles, Sun, Jack, Reyes and Linus. Ilana is only talking about the candidates to replace Jacob, considering she is his body guard. Anyone who has been brought to the island is a candidate, the conversation with Lapidus hints that if the island wants you then it is eventually going to get you. Because Illana is only concerned with replacing Jacob, there are only six candidates within her/Jacob's camp: Lapidus, Miles, Sun, Jack, Reyes and Linus.
• Ilana's six candidates are: Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Jin, and Sun. She is counting both Jin and Sun, since she doesn't know which one Kwon refers to. Though it seems reasonable that Sayid is no longer a candidate due to his infection, there really hasn't been anything clearly stated that indicates this makes him no longer a candidate.
• Reyes, Shepherd, Kwon, Austen, and two unknowns are still candidates. One of the unknowns is Rose Nadler. (unsupported)
• Since Ilana hasn't been really up to date on a lot of the information, the six candidates she is referring to could just be the Oceanic Six. She's not the one making the judgment calls about who is or isn't a candidate; she has only been tasked with protecting them. So she wouldn't be ruling out Sayid or Kate or any of the other questionable ones based on her own personal judgments.
• There are six candidates, but not all for Jacob. The six, Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Jin, and Sun will be split between Jacob and the MiB. As far as we know, Sawyer, Sayid, and possibly Jin have gone to the MiB. Jack, Hurley, and Sun are all with Jacob.
• The six candidates that Ilana has to protect are the six of the people on the beach at the end of the episode besides herself. Jack, Hurley, Richard, Sun, Miles, and Lapidus. It is not known if Lapidus has been touched by Jacob, so perhaps Ben is even one of the six. Miles may very well have been touched by Jacob. Despite his "punk" appearance in Some Like It Hoth, he physically appears to be the same as in Dr. Linus. Hearing dead people could also be considered a gift.
• Ilana knows that Miles is a candidate because she asks him "Your the one who can talk to dead people". Perhaps the gifts that Richard refers to are things that each individual can do. Miles; read dead peoples thoughts. Hurley; talk to dead people. Jack; healing. Sayid; killing without remorse etc.
• Jin & Sun are one candidate. Neither can replace Jacob alone as without their other half they are much lesser people.
• Locke remains one of the 6 candidates. MIB crossed out his name prematurely. He now "lies in the shadow of the statue" and he will be "the one to save us all."

Removed: Richard is a candidateEdit

After much thought I have removed this item from theories. It's core theory is that Richard is a candidate because at some time he was touched by Jacob. Nothing that follows or was added provides any evidence from the show that this is so. There is a lot of discussion as to agelessness which is discussed elsewhere on this page but nothing which advances the theory, au contraire editors have given evidence which suggests the theory is untrue. The premise that "All the candidates we know so far have become candidates by the act of Jacob touching them. Richard is also touched by Jacob. Therefore, Richard is a candidate" is muddled thinking. So on the basis that the theory is illogical, speculative, lacking support evidence and that much of it is a response not original theorising I have moved it here, as a stimulus for improvement I have dropped the basic theory into the candidates section on the main page. --Charles Kane 00:13, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

• All the candidates we know so far have become candidates by the act of Jacob touching them. Richard is also touched by Jacob. Therefore, Richard is a candidate.
  • Jacob has touched candidates but his touch did not necessarily make them candidates. In fact, it appears that he was watching some of them as candidates prior to his visits.
    • Jacob touches candidates at different times of their lives e.g. Kate was touched when she was a child, Jack, before the crash, and Sayid, after the crash. It is only reasonable to assume that Jacob will touch the candidates at some point in time. So watching them before his visits does not contradicts the theory. And considering the second argument of agelessness, the candidates should be touched eventually. So if Richard was touched, it is very likely because he was a candidate (however not necessarily).
      • Sayid was touched by Jacob as a child after he killed the chicken for his brother, Omar.
        • We only know that Sayid was touched by Jacob as AN ADULT crossing the street with Nadia.
• A candidate will replace Jacob so he/she needs to be ageless (similar to Jacob himself) to take care of the island until another replacement is found. Therefore, a candidate becomes ageless by the touch of current caretaker (now Jacob). These all point to Richard being a candidate.
  • Being touched by Jacob doesn't necessarily mean you'll stop aging - Kate and Sawyer have aged dramatically since Jacob touched them.
    • It's possible a gifted person only stops aging when on the island.
    • It wouldn't make sense for Sawyer/Kate to stop aging at a young age. If they are meant to be ageless in order to take over for Jacob, who would follow a child?
• Jacob's touch only creates a link between that person that he touched and the island, ensuring that they will be at the island to fulfill some purpose.
• There is nothing to indicate that being touched by Jacob makes you a candidate, merely that it brings you to the island. Jacob may have a need for some people to come to the island to serve him, but not to replace him, such as Richard.
• Richard is not on the list of candidates we have seen so far.
  • We have not seen all the names on the list. It may be there.
• Illana said there are only 6 candidates left, Richard isn't one of them.
  • We have seen the name "Austen" at the lighthouse not crossed off, implying that Kate is a candidate. She is not one of the six referred to by Illana, so Illana might not know who all of the candidates are.

Edit links Edit

Hey I think something is wrong with the 'edit' links on the Theory page for Dr. Linus.

The Richard and "Science vs Faith" links both go to the wrong section when you click "edit". Dick Alpert 13:45, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Jacob and Fate Edit

Removed here for lack of a theory. --Charles Kane 23:41, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

• While Ben is digging his grave he makes a quip about Jacob not caring for him. Miles responds with "Right up until the second the knife went through his heart, he was hoping he was wrong about you. I guess he wasn't." This indicates that Jacob doesn't entirely believe in fate. He was hoping he was wrong, in that Ben would make the choice that Jacob didn't expect. If Ben were to make a fated choice, then Jacob would fully expect and know him to pick the option to kill him. If he felt that he could be wrong about Ben, then he is admitting that Ben does have a completely free choice in the matter.
  • The whole show is about choices. From their first conversation, MiB feels the outcome of the humans arriving always ends the same. Jacob believe's these people do have a choice and they can make the right one.
• Jacob knows the final fate of people, but he doesn't know the events leading up to it. His statement about Ben says that he knows he is going to die, but was hoping that perhaps Ben wasn't the one who would be responsible for his death.
• The whole point of Miles' statement was just to make the audience (and the candidates) aware that Jacob did care for Ben, and therefore Richard and all the other candidates as well.
• Fate doesn't preclude choices. In fact, from a Chrisitan perspective we are all fated to be sinners but God has granted us the ability to "choose" a different life and to accept Him as our Savior. (In this way the producers are making Jacob very Christ like.) That said, I believe that even if Ben's fate was always to kill Jacob, and Jacob's fate was always to die, it makes complete sense, and fits along with the theme of the show, that a central characters' "choice" may guide them to do good deeds and thereby not sin as they were/are fated. This gets at the opening conversation between Jacob and the MIB regarding the impending arrival of new islanders on the horizon at the beginning of Season 6--hope and faith are equally important and interdependent variables of eachother. I think this show has demonstrated this point time and time again. It would be great, however, if the producers could truly give us answers and stop creating new questions.