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Talk:Black Rock

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Location location

A ship on the way from England (Portsmouth is a large port in England) to Australia would not have ended up in the South Pacific (where Lost is supposedly set). They would have come round the bottom of Africa. Also slaves weren't trafficked from England to Aus, but from Africa to England/US, i.e. across the Atlantic. Either way, if it is a slaver's ship (and it looks that way) then it was very, very lost. - DF

Where did the info about Portsmouth come from?--Tricksterson

It's written Portsmouth on the ship's aft, indicating that it was built there. --158.36.241.12 06:54, 15 February 2006 (PST)


On the Prometheus thing...Prometheus was chained to the side of a mountain by the Black Sea and every day birds would come and eat his liver and at night it would grow back. Wikipedia has a great article on him and info about the mountain - nothing about a Black Rock reference though. However, Prometheus was there for going against the gods and giving fire to the mortals...perhaps this boat gave something....

I guess the reference is mountain (rock) by the Black sea. But yeah, nothing too direct has been mentioned. The reason for Prometheus' captivity was because he gave fire (dynamite?) to mankind. On greek myths, Hades and his queen lived in a castle made of Black Rock, but again, this is something too indefinite for even an adding a theory for. Maybe a common theme, since everything is one nowadays anyway. --skks 01:02, 19 March 2006 (PST)

Plague Ship

Wild theory here.

Could the ship have brought disease to the island. It would explain why slaves and/or the infected were left to die chained in the hold.

Since its age.. could it be that it sailed into its new location on a since dried up river.

Just ideas I had and probably don't mean anything but you get the impression that little in Lost is 'by accident'.

--MRNasher

Sailing up the river is rather unlikely. Ship like this would need a really large river to do it. Island is just too small for that.

The disease IMHO is something Danielle made up to justify killing her friends. She lost her mind because she couldn't belive in all the supernatural things the expedition has discovered (like the Monster etc.).

--Pirate87 10:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Other Black rocks

Did anyone else note the black rocks in the background of the location that Jack recognises as the location of the meeting with the others?

It looks rather prominent and this was in the episode where Bernard was collecting black rocks (revealing that there is a lavafield on the island, and therefore a volcanic island) to make the beach sign. Which btw would be vulnerable to the tide sweeping it away, just like the fuselage.

--MRNasher

Peter Pan?

The name of Captain Hook's ship in Peter Pan is also the Black Rock. Could this be a refence to Never Never Land or the Lost Boys?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Waterboy04 (talk • contribs) .

Just looked it up... Captain Hook's ship (at least in the Disney cartoon) was the "Jolly Roger"--BigSteve777 11:27, 13 April 2006 (PDT)

A restructure?

I feel this article needs more structure. In the "Facts" section, it would help comprehension if the items about the ship the Black Rock were separated from the other references to "the Black Rock". It may also help to acknowledge that there may be another Black Rock on the island -- namely, a landmark -- which has nothing to do with the ship.

And yes, I'm not convinced that the Black Rock was a slave ship -- would it be distracting to explain in the article some reasons why it might not be? (If it's just going to lead to a edit war, I won't push the matter.) -- Llywrch 16:03, 14 April 2006 (PDT)

I agree. It would make sense to have a "black rock" section that included non-specific rock references, then a "black rock ship" section that was specific to the ship, and thirdly a "other black rock" section specific to the attributes of the rock at The Line.
I agree too. So let's make it :) --Perpetka 12:38, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

Slaves and dynamite

There are two strange things about the ship.

Number one: ships with slaves would hardly be in the Pacific Ocean, since most of the slave trade was done in the Atlantic, and some less in the Indic. This fact can be explained by the hypothesis that the island is actually somewhere in Africa's east coast, and not in the Pacific. I wrote about this in Talk:The Island.

Number two: there is another less provocative fact that I never saw anybody discuss... Dynamite was invented only in 1866. That article also mentions that South Africa became a large dynamite producer, but looks like this happened only in the beginning of the 20th century.

The strange thing is that by the ending of the 19th century, slave trade was already declining, as slavery itself. The British Navy started suppressing slave trade alrady in 1807, and it seems it was very successful in the Indic Ocean.

Brazil was one of the last countries to abolish slavery. The international slave trade was forbidden here in 1850 with the Eusébio de Queirós Law. In 1871, sons of slaves were already declared free by the Lei do Ventre Livre, and in 1888 the full abolishment came.

One of the primary reasons for the ending of slavery was the industrial revolution, and dynamite is already a symbol the "second industrial revolution"! A dynamite box in a slave-trading ship is almost an ANACHRONISM!

So, it's very unlikely that a ship trading slaves would carry dynamite... Is this another strange fact to look for in the series, making everything more mysterious, or an (very unlikely) error from the writers?... What do you think? -- NIC1138 18:22, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

If they were slaves pertaining to the mining industry, as many have suggested, then the dynamite would make sense, but, there is the fact of the chronology of the history of slavery and how it does not match up correctly here. Is it possible its just a transport boat for criminals? It is said that Australia was originally inhabited by the criminals that Britain sent there in exile...

And don't forget just because slavery was illegal doesn't mean slave trade didn't still occur.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cour002 (talk • contribs) .

The British allowed the use of former slave ships to transport convicts to Australia.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 14:04, 4 July 2008 (PDT)

The lasu UQ is pointless IMHO. The dynamite the Losties found exploded so easily because it was exposed to heat for a long time. When the ship was sailing, the temprature in the bottom compartments wouldn't be so high because of the water cooling the hull. So even in tropical weather it wouldn't be so hot in there for the dynamite to explode on impact. Which wasn't very hard when you take into account that the ship was still more or less intact after. --Pirate87 10:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Just the dynamite

I've begun wondering why we treat the dynamite as having arrived with the ship. It could have arrived later, possibly with the U. S. Army or even with the French Science Team, although I think the case for the French would be weak. One issue is the manner in which the individual sticks are rolled and wrapped. Does anyone have a handle on that process?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:51, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

This is pathetic...

Why would Black Rock be referring to a literal black rock? We all know it is just the old ship. --SilvaStorm

There was a thriving Slave trade between Hawaii, other islands in the pacific, and S. America. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Annimon (talk • contribs) .

Revert

Cancel this revert and simply redirect it to the ship. I'm sure people are more likely to want to read about the ship than a few apophenious black rocks. --Princess Dharma (banned) 12:18, 18 February 2007 (PST)

  • I am sure you are right, more people likely search for the ship then the actual rocks themselves, however none the less this should remain a disambig, not a redirect. The whole purpose of a disambig page is to include all articles with similar titles to clear confusion and simplify lostpedia. If someone were indeed searching for Black rocks and typed in Black Rock and were redirected to the ship page it would not help them. However with this page all they have to do, whether they are searching for each the ship or the actual rocks is click one link, which is not hard. And in essence if this were to become a redirect, it should redirect to the Black rocks no the Black Rock. But we could argue over that all day. That is why this is a disambig, so there is no need to argue over which it redirects to. -Mr.Leaf 12:23, 18 February 2007 (PST)

Then why should Tom automatically redirect to Mr. Friendly? Princess Dharma (banned) 12:25, 18 February 2007 (PST)

Tom could easily refer to Tom Brennan. Princess Dharma (banned) 12:28, 18 February 2007 (PST)

Although i really don't want to continue this argument as Jaber has fixed it in a way i agree with I will answer your question. Tom redirects to Tom (nicknamed Mr. Friendly however that is not his name) because his name is indeed Tom. All the others Tom's we have have last or different names (see Tom (disambiguation)). It links to him because that is his exact name as we know it, where as this page is not exact name as either the Black Rock or Black rocks. There is no need to continue this argument as Jaber has fixed it and locked the pages, so if you still have concern about his please talk to him. Thanks -Mr.Leaf 12:32, 18 February 2007 (PST)

Just to note, I fixed this in what I think is a logical sense and to prevent edit wars. If people disagree with the decision then have the discussion and then ask a sysop to make changes.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 12:36, 18 February 2007 (PST)


Delete and redirect to the ship page

I understand above comments about "Black Rock" automatically going to the ship while "Black rock" should be disambig, but honestly I think its a bit of an unnecessary stretch. There is already a note at the top of the ship page, giving a link to the Black rocks, as per Orientation, Lockdown, Dave. This seems perfectly acceptable, so why in this instance where its so one or the other (one being MUCH more prominent), do we need to bother with a disambiguation when a note at the top of the ship article (which 99% would be looking for anyway), does the same job with less directing --Nickb123 (Talk) 09:27, 31 July 2007 (PDT)


"Theories" link doesn't work

I can't figure out how to fix this. ESachs 01:26, 18 February 2008 (PST)

1845 vs. 1881

Seems like new information from "The Constant" contradicts the clues given in The Lost Experience. Robert K S 22:05, 28 February 2008 (PST)

I know that Cuse and Lindelof have said that The Lost Experience and Find 815 cannot be confirmed as canon indicating that we should go with the date of 1845. However, dynamite was not invented until 1866 and not patented until 1867. That would seem to indicate that Black Rock must have been in a port somewhere in Europe no earlier than the mid 1870's (assuming that it would have taken several years for a 19th century invention like dynamite to have been mass produced enough that it would have been carried in large quantities on a slave ship). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JDMCMAMC (talk • contribs) .

The date discrepency issue of 1845 for when the Black Rock left Portsmouth and the invention of Dynamite in 1866 can perhaps be resolved by the fact that we allow for the fact that there may have been many visitors to the island after 1866 and its not unlikely that they may have bought Dynamite with them to the island. Storing Dynamite in an old shipwreck would make sense if the Dynamite arrived on the island long after the Black Block did (i.e after it was washed up on the land).

Cuse and Lindelof have both indicted in Podcasts and thelike that the current visitors (The Losties/The Others, Dharma)on the island are merely the latest in a long list of previous visitors/visitations - so this can be taken as canon.

The Black Rock diary that Widmore purchased as shown in "The Constant", was found, according the Auctioneer several years after 1845, on an island near Madagascar. Both of these dates would indicate that the mates diary (and presumably some of the Black Rock's visit(s) to the island - there may have been more than visit by the ship) predated the invention of Dynamite.

So how come Dynamite ended up there can't be explained by the date of the last known voyage of the Black Rock.

However, in the Lost postcast of 28 Feb 08, Cuse indicated in response to a listener question, that that there are several places around the world which have "a connection" with the island (he named Ayers Rock in Australia and Tunisia as examples of this). In the previous podcast on 25 Feb 08 Cuse also indicated in response to another question about how come the Polar Bar with a Dharma collar on was found in the desert of Tunisia, that the island has special "properties" which that allow it to have connections to the outside world. These two answers could be taken as indicating that these special locations are able to provide "portals" to and from the island (and also how come, I presume, how the light plane which left Nigeria ended up on the island). So that fact that the Mates diary ended up "off island" and the Dynamite ended up "on island" - in the Black Rock - sometime post 1866 when Dynamite was invented do not conflict with the date of the last known voyage of the Black Rock in 1845 - if concept of many visitors to and from the island in the years between 1845 and 2004 is accepted. --Number 6 16:04, 1 March 2008 (PST)

It should be noted in the article this clear discrepancy. Another point is the Suez Canal. If the final voyage was in 1845, it would have sailed around the continent of Africa. If it was the 1880s, it would have sailed through the Canal. --Xbenlinusx 19:12, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Painting from the auction

Obviously the ledger is Black Rock related, but that painting could be of any ship. Its possible the auction was of naval antiquities or whatever, not necessarily a Black Rock fanclub collection. I think the image should be removed from the main article under "After the Island" --Nickb123 (Talk) 10:50, 1 March 2008 (PST)

I agree. If you listen to the auctioneer, the painting may be the next lot up for bid. It is said to have been in the possession of Charles Dickens at the time of his death. It may not be related to the Black Rock. Robert K S 13:45, 1 March 2008 (PST)

Further connection?

Do you think we can expect the Black Rock and/or the trading companies associated with it to be connected to the recent developments in the story (i.e. Widmore's interest in the Island, and Ben's interest in protecting it)? I suppose if most of the backstory of the ship was given in the Lost Experience, then by the producers admition it can't be accepted as canon and probably won't have any relation to the show... But I can't help but feel like it must be more integrally connected to Widmore et al. Obviously we now know from The Constant that Widmore has some interest in the ship, or at least in the records of its journey. Was this simply a means to locate the Island itself, or does the ship serve some further purpose? --Jacob's Lather 06:14, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

Island moved in the past?

Could the island have moved in the past and appeared at the location that the black rock was at that time. We saw the island appear to sink in to the sea so I would imagine that where it reappears it appears out of the sea.. Any thoughts?? Also this could explain the location questions if the island has moved since the blackrock landed there... --Kryton 05:14, 10 June 2008 (PDT)

Voyages of the Black Rock

I wonder if the answer to the date question might not be as simple as the vessel having made more voyages than we're aware of.

  • First voyage
    • 1845: Black Rock leaves Portsmouth; it had to have some type of cargo; no captain wants to sail with an empty bottom.
    • 1845 - 1846?: Black Rock sails around Africa past the Cape of Good Hope
    • 1847?: Black Rock departs Papua New Guinea for England.
    • 1848?: Black Rock returns to England
  • Second voyage
    • 1848?: Black Rock departs England
    • 1848 - 1849?: Black Rock sails around Africa past the Cape of Good Hope
    • 1850?: Journal stolen
    • 1852: Journal found.
  • Other voyages?
  • X voyage
    • 1867?: Black Rock departs England
    • 1868?: Black Rock is stranded on the Island
  • Notes
    • A vessel departing Papua New Guinea for England would benefit by sailing east. The prevailing winds would make it faster to sail past Cape Horn to get to England.
    • 1866: Dynamite invented.
    • 1967: Last shipment of convicts for Western Australia departs Portsmouth, England
    • 1868: Last shipment of convicts arrives in Western Australia

External Link

Is the external link http://www.freewebs.com/shipwreckmate/index.htm appropriate? The title of the linked page is "Top 8 Shipwrecks and Ships Lost at Sea" and it includes the missing Black Rock. It looks like an attempt to make our vessel real. I doubt that the Black Rock is that high in any real list of lost/missing ships. To quote one of the sysops, "We're writing an encyclopedia."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:40, 4 July 2008 (PDT)

It was part of The Lost Experience, or at least that's what I've always thought... I wasn't around at the time of TLE so I can't guarentee it 100%. --Bohrok Awakener 11:08, 7 November 2008 (PST)


I think it would be good if Miles visits the Black Rock so we can finaly find out what happend with it--Woodsy123 20:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The Incident Parts 1 & 2

Have we confirmed that this is the Black Rock now. I believe it is, but we haven't got any confirmation that its the case. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  14:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

  • I did not hear the words "Black" and "Rock" uttered together. In a recent podcast, D & C said that, for them, only the show is canon.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by gaarmyvet (talk • contribs) .
  • Unless it can be proven that it is in fact the Black Rock, I take issue with it being stated definitively that the ship we saw was in fact the Black Rock.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brodeh (talk • contribs) .
  • Somebody give me one good reason to doubt that that's the Black Rock. The opening scene was obviously meant to tie into iconic Lost mythology by using Jacob, the Statue and a mysterious ship. How many mythologically iconic ships have appeared in Lost? Only one which matches the appearance of this ship: The Black Rock. We're obviously meant to take from the scene that this is the Black Rock, and we are not given any reason to doubt this. The argument "we don't have 100% confirmation" is a bogus argument, because otherwise we'd never be able to say anything concrete on the the wiki. If it turns out we were wrong, then we can just change it. We should strive to present the information as it has been presented, rather than second guess everything. Same reason Naomi was listed as "deceased" between seasons 3 and 4.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I have to agree. It's like all the people saying the statue in LaFleur wasn't THE statue. Seriously guys, sometimes you just have to read between the lines when it's 99% obvious yet unconfirmed. Of course if it doesn't turn out to be the Black Rock it can always be corrected and the article should say "possibly" or "probably" but for all intents and purposes, that was the Black Rock.--Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 06:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  • does anyone else think that the incident is the reason why the black rock is in the midle of the jungle? the electromagnetism could have easly drawn the metal inside the ship into the island
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