Contents 1 Merge discussion 2 Redundancies 3 Rename 4 Additions 5 Battles vs. Fights and attacks 6 Merge nom 7 Clarification 8 My proposal - Factional Battles 9 Deletion

Merge discussionEdit

• DO NOT MERGE -This article is completely of its own subject. Rivalries talks about character quarrels and fights, but THIS page talks about the MAJOR island battles that have occured between the islands four main groups. --CTS 19:54, 5 March 2008 (PST)
  • By creating more links on other pages, it will make this page more accessible to others. --CTS 20:07, 5 March 2008 (PST)
• MERGE: I think this article should be merged with the rivalries. Rivalries implies fights, and the Losties were fighting the Others in season three, which is one of the two main conflicts disscussed. I want it merged due to the fact that it has good content, otherwise, it should be deleted, as it's content is refrenced by the episodes in which the events occoured. --Rhcm123|talk|contributions 20:12, 5 March 2008 (PST)
• Do Not Merge: When you look at the rivalries page it's mainly a person vs. a person. Battles are bigger than just a rivalry. Like CTS has said this is more of a group vs. group page. BETTYFIZZW (Talk) 08:57, 6 March 2008 (PST)
• Do Not Merge, as per Bettyfizzw. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  12:11, 10 March 2008 (PDT)
• Do Not Merge, also as per Bettyfizzw, the real question is how beef up this page and make it more accessible, for, as Rhcm123 said, it's otherwise pointless.--Bstarfish101 05:35, 18 March 2008 (PDT)
  • It can be made more accessible by creating links on related pages that lead to this page. It can also be added to a template. --CTS 19:27, 19 March 2008 (PDT)
• Do not merge, but rename to Factional Fights The Rivalries and Fights and Attacks article are vs. individuals; what we are trying to capture with the "battles" article are FACTIONAL fights and disputes. The Others vs. the survivors, the Others vs. the mercenaries, the survivors vs. the mercenaries, etc. But just because they are factions, doesn't mean they are "battles". They are still fights, but those fights combined are part of a larger, on-going battle between factions.  Kevrock   talk  contribs   14:54, 14 July 2008 (PDT)

RedundanciesEdit

• Some problems:
  1. Some of the content is too redundant with Fights and attacks. Minor battles should be defined such that it does not overlap much with Fights. In fact, perhaps this won't even be an issue once the next point is resolved:
  2. The Major vs. Minor distinction is entirely redundant with the previous sections. One should be deleted. Major vs. minor seems to me to be a fan-based distinction. The only thing going for it is the colorful table, which, as we've discussed many times in the past for many other articles when we started using such tables, is that a table doesn't necessarily make the article better. If it doesn't present the content in a clearer or more meaningful way, the table has got to go. This would solve the redundancy problem with "Fights and attacks" in a meaningful way. In other words, even if there is some redundancy, it is fine b/c the organization of the article will focus on a sequence of battles between the same two opposing groups. -- ^Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  ^Talk  04:23, 23 June 2008 (PDT)

• OK the minor battles section is removed for now. The major battles probably should go too, as the distinction between events is still very arbitrary and fan-based, and the problems with using tables for the sake of tables, and redundancies with previous sections in the article still holds. What about all of the people that died when the Kahana exploded? That's part of the "battle" for Keamy to collect Ben. In fact so are the "helicopter" and "Barracks" battle part of that. Is this one battle, or three? or two because the Kahana was a detonation at a distance? And at the top, "battle" should be defined: do we need firearms, or deaths, or multiple deaths, or multiple deaths and firearms? -- ^Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  ^Talk  04:29, 23 June 2008 (PDT)

I think battle should be defined as separate occasions in which two major opposing groups used violence against the other, leading to casualties on both sides. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  07:37, 23 June 2008 (PDT)

• I agree with Sam's statement. It's the fact it's groups going against each other that makes it a battle. BETTYFIZZW (Talk) 08:51, 23 June 2008 (PDT)

• Close; the fact it's groups fighting makes it factional vs. individual fights. They may be part of a larger battle between groups, but each of these "battle articles" is still just a fight.  Kevrock   talk  contribs   14:57, 14 July 2008 (PDT)

The Kahana exploding was not a part of the helicopter battle, or the Barracks battle for that matter. The major battles covered in this article take place in one location and involves fighting between two opposing forces. The Kahana wouldn't be considered part of this battle, but it is arguably a part of the overall war between the survivors and the freighties. The Kahana wouldn't be considered part of any particular battle because there was no fighting between two groups occuring at the time it happened. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 10:56, 23 June 2008 (PDT)

The following battles were listed under the category minor battles: "Ethan battle" (Homecoming), "Michael battle (Three Minutes), "Jungle battle" (Live together, die alone), "Hydra Island battle" (Not in Portland). Two of these battles are redundant with fights and attacks: "Ethan battle" and "Michael battle". Both of these battles take place with indivisuals, not with groups. The Ethan battle was Ethan vs the survivors. The Michael battle was Michael vs the Others. The Jungle battle was a battle between two groups: The survivors and the Others. The Hydra Island battle was between two groups as well: The survivors and the Others. Since the hydra island battle and the jungle battle took place between groups, they should be classified as 'minor battles', but the Michael and Ethan battles were redundant with fights and attacks. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 11:20, 23 June 2008 (PDT)

Rename Edit

Now that every battle (major and minor) is covered here, this page needs to be renamed to Battles. --Blueeagleislander 03:04, 25 June 2008 (PDT)

Agree -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 11:36, 25 June 2008 (PDT)

Agree I agree, it's not as though Lost has ever had a 'major battle'. The largest fight was probably the battle at the helicopter, which had at most 30 people involved. 30 people is not exactly a 'major' battle. Battles will suffice, seeing that if you call these fights major battles, your idea of a minor battle would probably be someone chopping firewood. Elliott thomas|talk|contributions 19:46, 28 June 2008 (PDT)

• Agree - A no-brainer. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  20:03, 28 June 2008 (PDT)

Comment: This rename is pretty obvious, so I'm going to ask a Sysop to rename it to Battles. If anyone disagrees, just state so here. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 13:25, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

Hey, I'll do this move to "Battles". However, I'm also adding a merge tag concerning "Fights and Attacks" as the two are similar as per the discussion I see on this page. --Nickb123 (Talk) 07:42, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Additions Edit

In the Minor Battles Table we should add The Ethan Rom Battle(Charlie kills Ethan), Jack vs Ethan Battle(Jack was beaten up), Kidnapped Tailies Battel 1(Eko kills 2 unnamed others), Kiddnapped Tailies Battel 2(Ana kills an unnamed other), Goodwin vs Ana Lucia(Goodwin dies), and Stealing The Elizabeth Battle(There were shots fired at sun). These are just my thoughts on what should be added, if anybody has anything else they want to add they should. --LostCloverfield42 20:05, 28 June 2008 (PDT)

The Jack vs Ethan battle is already covered in the fights and attacks article. The Tailies' battle and the Elizabeth battle are good ones. I think they are both minor battles though. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 20:09, 28 June 2008 (PDT)

Battles vs. Fights and attacksEdit

There needs to be a clear distinction between what qualifies for one article vs. another. Ideally there should be no overlap between the two articles. Suggestions for a ruleset that would permit easy judgments on the distinction? Robert K S (talk) 14:12, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

Fights and attacks are one-on-one, battles are fights with more than two people involved. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  14:15, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

Exactly. Battles are like The Others vs. the Survivors; fights and attacks are like Jack vs. Ethan. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 14:18, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

• But the fights article covers Jack's battle with Chet's gang and him and Marc vs. Meathead. These are fights with more then 2 people. Also the battles article covers the Sun vs. Coleen stand-off on the Elizabeth, even though it is only 2 people: Sun and Coleen, which should be covered in the Shootings article.--Orhan94 14:20, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

Then we need to move the Chet battle over here then, don't we? And you forget that the Elizabeth battle also had Tom and the Others too.-- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  14:24, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

No, the Sun and Colleen battle includes Sayid, Tom, Jin, and the Others involved since gunfire was exhanged. The Chet's gang battle would not be a battle because it is one person vs. a group. A battle is two groups vs. each other. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 14:22, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

I disagree. I feel that a battle could just have one group. Such as the Ethan battle. That's not just a fight, that was a well thought-out, planned battle. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  14:24, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

But isn't a battle a fight against two opposing forces? Wouldn't forces be made up of more than just one individual? -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 20:59, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

Sayid, Jack, Locke, Charlie, and whoever else against Ethan isn't just a little fight.-- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:01, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

True, but is it really a battle? I always thought a battle was between two large groups (e.g. survivors, Others, Dharma, etc.) -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 21:03, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

I always thought it was one or two groups. But you may be right. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:04, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

After thinking about it, you might be right. I think the Ethan battle could be considered a battle since a lot of the survivors were involved. I guess a battle can be between one or two groups. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 21:07, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

I don't think defining a battle as involving more than two persons is sufficient. Are the several Season 1 dustups involving Sawyer battles? Robert K S (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

They're not, true, true. But the Ethan battle just was on such a massive scale...i dunno, really. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:32, 29 June 2008 (PDT)

• I'm not sold on the idea that these are "battles". As a veteran, and someone who's studied military science, a battle is part of a larger campaign, which is part of a larger war. Battles are fought using tactics, such as ambushes, which result in small engagements, which is actually what these articles are about. From a language standpoint, it's a whole-part, general-specific thing; where several engagements make a battle, several battles make a campaign, and several campaigns make a war. Another was to think of it is in terms of tactics vs. strategy; a tactic is how you deal with a specific situation, whereas a strategy is your ultimate plan to twin. The Others tactics involved ambush and kidnapping, while their strategy has involved stealth and deception.
  • A good example of why I think the entire concept of these beings battles is illustrated in the helicopter battle article. The article talks about the Lead up, which doesn't mention the barracks battle. Those battles aren't unrelated; you could argue that one is the continuance of another. Then there's an "Initial strike" section, but no further strikes are listed. If you are going to qualify it as the first strike, you have to mention other subsequent strikes; that's the same as having a list with only one item. So you have the guerrilla take-down of the three mercenaries, the firefight, and the grenade attack as all part of the initial strike. What part of all this is the actual battle? Then lumped in this initial strike is Keamy's hand-to-hand with Sayid that doesn't take place on the battlefield. In addition, Sayid wasn't even a combatant during that battle, yet this is part of the initial strike. Then under "Aftermath", which I don't know if that is still part of the battle of not, you have Ben killing Keamy at the Orchid. This took place like hours later in another geographic area, but at least Ben was in the previous battle.
  • The problem with what I describe below is that its a series of connected events, rather than a battle. To put it in comparison to something we all understand, let's think about Star Wars. So the Galactic Civil war is between the Rebels and the Empire. This war was made of several battles, including the battle of Yavin where the first Death Star was destroyed, the battle on Hoth, and the battle of Endor where the second Death Star was destroyed. These are big battles, though; we are talking hundreds of combatants, large geographic battlefields, and definable military achievements, such as the destruction of planet-sized space stations. Each of these featured a series of engagements that were part of the larger battles. Take Hoth for instance, Han and Chewie fight the probe droid, the snowspeeders vs. the AT-ATs, the entrenched Rebels vs. the Empire artillery, the snowtroopers invading the Rebel base, the Millenium Falcon evading the Star Destroyers in orbit, etc. Each of these involved different people in different places in distinct situations, the sum of which are the battle.
• So again, I do not support the idea that these are battles. The only war going on here is between Ben and Widmore, and we don't know enough about it yet. The Purge may have been the final blow in a longer war between the Hostiles and DHARMA, but again we don't know. The Others and the survivors were at odds with each other and the mercenaries, but I would hardly call it a war. You could say they were battling each other, but each of these "battle" article is nothing more than a smaller piece of a bigger pie.  Kevrock   talk  contribs   14:49, 14 July 2008 (PDT)

Merge nomEdit

I've moved the page to cover all "Battles" as requested. However, the merge nomination is because there is a lot of overlap between this and "Fights and attacks", it falls under a violence/conflict on the island umbrella that needs to be sorted out. Whilst yes, there are some distinctions as mentioned above, one could still argue that they can be merged as one under different subheadings. This needs to be addressed. --Nickb123 (Talk) 07:47, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Don't merge: There is a definite differenece between battles and fights/attacks. As has been mentioned above, battles consist of one or more groups of people. DHARMA vs the Others isn't a fight or an attack, it is a battle (in this case a major battle). I think there is enough to distinguish between battles and fights/attacks, so this should not be merged. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 12:18, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Merge: There's always going to be debate about what qualifies as either. So just merge the two. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  12:36, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

But what's to debate? A battle is a battle, a fight is a fight. They are clearly distinguished. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 13:37, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

As you know, there will be questions on whether one group versus one person is a fight, and if it's not, then what is it? I think it's best to have all these fights on one page that covers them all and leaves absolutely no grey area. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  13:41, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

I think guidelines could be made to make sure that there is absolutely no grey area. I think that the Purge and other major battles on the page are in a completely different league than Sawyer vs. Sayid, etc. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 13:44, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

True, but these could easily be sorted out as Major vs. minor. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  13:46, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, I think they could be sorted out as major/minor. I think it would be better to merge fights and attacks with Battles since the fights/attacks can be classified as minor battles. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 13:51, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Merge: According to my dictionary, "Fight (noun): A struggle or contest or conflict of any kind." That includes major (and minor) battles I presume. I'm also considering making individual articles for some battles. --Blueeagleislander 18:45, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Regardless of dictionary definitions, in this context, Sayid vs. Sawyer is a lot different than the Others vs. the Survivors. As for individual pages, which ones would you make? -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 22:18, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Comment: Blue eagle islander does have a good idea creating individual articles for some of the battles listed here. We have a battle template (as seen in The Purge article), why not put it to more use? BETTYFIZZW (Talk) 20:44, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Yeah! I did work hard on that template. =] -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  20:47, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, I thought we did well, its a good template. Anyway, I was thinking the battles in the "Major battles" section, and perhaps the "Minor battles". --Blueeagleislander 00:08, 1 July 2008 (PDT)

I dunno about a page for each, perhaps that could be done later on? Firstly though, surely they should be merged into an umbrella article like "Conflict on the Island" or whatever, and then if you decide to do individual description pages for each battle, a "see main article:..." could then be added under each subheading (depending on which battles have enough info to justify their own individual pages - so probably just the major battles, defo the purge, etc). --Nickb123 (Talk) 05:25, 1 July 2008 (PDT)

I've started with beach camp battle. --Blueeagleislander 20:06, 2 July 2008 (PDT)

Very cool, but I still propose a rename to "Conflict on the Island", incorporating a merge with Fights and attacks. "See main article" links can be provided to pages such as Beach camp battle (which I really like btw). --Nickb123 (Talk) 07:01, 4 July 2008 (PDT)

ClarificationEdit

Right, where I'm at right now is merging Fights and attacks and Battles but, to satisfy those who see a distinction, renaming to "Conflict on the Island" or simply "Conflict", capturing both elements. They'll be "see main article" links to the four major battles as per what CTS has done. Is that good with people? --Nickb123 (Talk) 10:52, 13 July 2008 (PDT)

Seems good. --Blueeagleislander 20:34, 13 July 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, right on. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  20:35, 13 July 2008 (PDT)

My proposal - Factional BattlesEdit

This is my proposal for Factional Battles - how all the fights, attacks, and battles should be organized.  Kevrock   talk  contribs   15:47, 14 July 2008 (PDT)

• On-going conflicts
  • Ben vs. Widmore
    • Ben's employees vs. Widmore's employees
      • Widmore vs. unknown, blidfolded Other [melee, execution]
      • Saydi vs. Bakir [assassination]
      • Sayid vs. Mr. Avellino [assassination]
      • Sayid vs. the Economist [espionage, assassination]
        • Sayid vs. Elsa [self-defense]

• Resolved conflicts
  • Hostiles vs. DHARMA
  • Hostilities apparently over as DHARMA no longer exists and the Hostiles have become the Others
    • Unknown previous attacks
    • Hostiles attack the Barracks (a.k.a. The Purge) [ambush, chemical attack, occupation]
      • Ben vs. Roger [chemical attack]
  • Ben vs. Widmore
    • Freighter crew vs. Island inhabitants
    • Hostilities apparently over as science team now merged with survivors and mercenaries are all dead
      • Science team infiltrates the Island [espionage]
        • Locke vs. Naomi [assassination]
        • Daniel & Charlotte vs. the Tempest [sabotage]
      • Mercenaries infiltrate the Island
        • Mercenaries vs. Rousseau, Karl, Alex [ambush, assassination, kidnapping]
        • Mercenaries vs. the Barracks
          • Mercenaries blow up houses, shoot red shirts [ambush, demolitions, siege]
          • Keamy vs. Alex [execution]
          • Monster vs. mercenaries
        • Mercenaries infiltrate the Orchid [occupation]
          • Ben surrenders [diverion]
      • Others vs. mercenaries at the helicopter [ambush,
        • Sayid vs. Keamy [ambush, melee]
      • Keamy infiltrates the Orchid
        • Ben vs. Keamy [ambush, melee]
  • Others vs. survivors
  • Hostilities apparently over as both sides had to work together to fight the mercenaries and Locke now leads the Others
    • Others vs. tail-section
      • Night raids [ambush, melee, kidnapping]
      • Goodwin vs. Anna [espionage, melee]
    • Others vs. middle-section
      • Ehtan vs. survivors [espionage, kidnapping, melee, execution]
      • Others vs. survivoirs at the Line [ambush, kidnapping]
      • Others vs. the raft [ambush, kidnapping, demolition]
      • Ben infiltrates the Swan [espionage, kidnapping]
        • Others vs. Michael [espionage, kidnapping, coercion]
        • Michael vs. Anna and Libby [ambush, assassination]
      • Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, and MIchael vs. Others [firefight, kidnapping]
      • Others raid the Sailboat
      • Others vs Sawyer and Kate
        • Picket vs. Sawyer [kidnapping, torture, melee]
      • Kate, Sayid, and John infiltrate the Barracks
        • Locke vs. Submarine [sabotage]
      • Others raid beach camp [ambush, demolitions, kidnapping]
        • Juliet, Sawyer, and Hurley vs. Others at beach [ambush, firefight, execution]

Wow. Erm well I'll wait til my clarification thing has enough support and then do a mass merge. At which point, if you want to re-organise it all then do a discussion template thing at that point. --Nickb123 (Talk) 15:55, 14 July 2008 (PDT)

DeletionEdit

• Delete: Content now merged into Conflict, so this page can be deleted as discussed above. --Nickb123 (Talk) 09:52, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
• Delete. But I think that Conflict —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CTS (talk • contribs) .
• Delete now that content has been merged. --Blueeagleislander 01:19, 24 July 2008 (PDT)