Lostpedia:Archived Debates/May 11, 2008
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Lostpedia Debate League - Event no. 1 ------------------------------------------------ TOPIC: Is Ben Evil? HOSTED BY: TheAma1 JUDGES: Lemonade, Smiley, KittyLili, TheAma1, LP Members DATE: Sunday 11th May 2008 TIME: 1900HRS BST(GMT+1) London VENUE: #lostpedia at irc.gamesurge.net POPULATION: Avg. 75 people ------------------------------------------------ What follows is a log of the entire event in verbatim. ------------------------------------------------
Introduction
<@TheAma1> Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the first ever Lostpedia Debate League! <@TheAma1> Tonight's topic is <@TheAma1> Is Ben Evil? <@TheAma1> We have two teams <@TheAma1> Team A, arguing that BEN IS EVIL, is The Black Rock Crew <@TheAma1> A1-manicmonoliths is the leader <@TheAma1> with A2-Ikkl as a member <@TheAma1> the opposing team is <@TheAma1> Team B, arguing that BEN IS GOOD. The team's name is Osama Ben Linus <@TheAma1> composed of B1-packerswes4 as the team leader, and B2-dragsol3 <@TheAma1> For those of you who are not debating tonight <@TheAma1> remember that you can PM me questions <@TheAma1> you would like to be asked to either a specific team <@TheAma1> or both <@TheAma1> to do so either PM me via the forum <@TheAma1> or via IRC (double click on my name until a new, private, window pops up) <@TheAma1> If you haven't read that already, I strongly suggest you read the DEBATE FORMAT at: http://forum.lostpedia.com/showpost.php?p=699596&postcount=85
Part One: The list
<@TheAma1> We will now start <@TheAma1> with the first round <@TheAma1> The List <@TheAma1> (not Jacob's list though) <@TheAma1> each leader will have 2 minutes to post 5 main arguments <@TheAma1> we will now start with team a, for, arguing that ben is evil <@TheAma1> A1-manicmonoliths <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen <+A1-manicmonoliths> today my team and I will be arguing that Ben is evil <+A1-manicmonoliths> here are our 5 points that we believe prove that Ben is evil; <+A1-manicmonoliths> 1. Ben is a coward <+A1-manicmonoliths> 2. Ben is selfish <+A1-manicmonoliths> 3. Ben is a liar <+A1-manicmonoliths> 4. Ben is a murderer <+A1-manicmonoliths> and finally <+A1-manicmonoliths> 5. Ben is acting of his own free will <@TheAma1> Thank you <@TheAma1> it is now time for the second, opposing team leader, B1-packerswes4 <@TheAma1> arguing that ben is good <@TheAma1> B1-packerswes4 <@TheAma1> your 2-mn time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <@TheAma1> 1mn30scs to go B1-packerswes4 <@TheAma1> 1mn left <@TheAma1> 30 scs <@TheAma1> 15 <@TheAma1> 10 <@TheAma1> Well... <@TheAma1> that was a pretty interesting list I must admit <@TheAma1> :)
Part Two: Discussion-arguments
<@TheAma1> It is now time for round two <@TheAma1> A discussion about the arguments <@TheAma1> presented in the list <@TheAma1> (or lack of...) <@TheAma1> each team will be voiced entirely <@TheAma1> and will have 5 mns to discuss, publicly, amongst themselves <@TheAma1> Team 1 <@TheAma1> I hope you are ready <@TheAma1> Your 5-mn time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A2-Ikkl> I think there may be a problem with that <+A2-Ikkl> Oh it's O.K <+A2-Ikkl> YAY! <@polarbear> yeah, that rox. <+A1-manicmonoliths> our first point is that Ben is a coward <+A2-Ikkl> (It wasn't showing you what I was typing a while ago) <+A2-Ikkl> Which he is, most definately <+A1-manicmonoliths> we have seen numerous examples of this <+A2-Ikkl> Locking Juliet and Jack in the flooding Hydra <+A2-Ikkl> Even though he has feelings for Juliet <+A1-manicmonoliths> indeed, such an act demonstrates his cowardice <+A1-manicmonoliths> that he would sacrafice one of his own, even Juliet who he loves is an indication that he is a true coward <+A1-manicmonoliths> our second point is that Ben is selfish <@TheAma1> 2mns left <+A1-manicmonoliths> we have seen this too in numerous instances, such as shooting Locke to maintain his leader role among the others <+A1-manicmonoliths> our 3rd point is that Ben is a liar <+A1-manicmonoliths> this one is obvious:) <+A2-Ikkl> The whole Henry Gale business <+A2-Ikkl> And several other times <+A1-manicmonoliths> he has lied about so many things it's impossible to count them! <+A2-Ikkl> "I know nothing of the Monster" <+A1-manicmonoliths> our 4th point is that Ben is a murderer <+A1-manicmonoliths> he personally killed his own father and ordered the deaths of numerous others such as Charlie! <+A2-Ikkl> All those innocent DHARMA peoples who were just scientists :( <+A1-manicmonoliths> our last point is that Ben is acting of his own free will when he does these things <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> it is now time <@TheAma1> for an optional clarification <@TheAma1> has any of the judges questions <@TheAma1> ? <@Smiley> I do <@TheAma1> yes <@TheAma1> ? <@Smiley> You say that Ben is not a coward. How do you explain his actions in the Swan, and when he went alone to face Jack in TTLG? <@TheAma1> team 2, you can also ask for clarifications regarding certain arguments <@Smiley> or am I not meant to ask that sort of question? <@TheAma1> team 1 <@TheAma1> you have 2 mns <@TheAma1> now <+A1-manicmonoliths> he went to face Jack alone because he had a trick up his sleeve <@TheAma1> to answer Smiley <+A2-Ikkl> He wanted to talk to Locke face to face. He never expected to encounter danger :p <+A1-manicmonoliths> he knew that with Sayid, Jin and Bernard held captive at gun point, that Jack would not lay a finger on him, although this plan didn't work out to well for him <+A2-Ikkl> He was just going to go have a chat with Locke <@C2-froglars> How does being a coward show he is evil? <+A2-Ikkl> Oh I thought you meant in S3 :o <+A2-Ikkl> Well froglars... that is a very good question <+A1-manicmonoliths> when we think of a good character, we think of someone who is brave and stands up for himself <+A2-Ikkl> And that is a very good answer <@TheAma1> froglars? <@TheAma1> well <@TheAma1> your 2 mns are up <@TheAma1> thank you Smiley <@TheAma1> for this question <@TheAma1> team 2 <@TheAma1> I hope you are ready to speak <+B2-dragsol3> not neccesarly a good character some times has to do bad things for a greater good <@TheAma1> not yet :) <@TheAma1> now <@TheAma1> it is time for team 2 <@TheAma1> to discuss amongst themselves good arguments <@TheAma1> for their team <@TheAma1> you will have also 5 minutes <@TheAma1> team 2 <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> ok as said above ben can be acting toword a greater good <+B2-dragsol3> it seems possible that DARMA was no as inncoent as they seem to be <+B2-dragsol3> If witmore is in fact as evil as he seems to be <@TheAma1> remember that this is not a counter-argument round <+B2-dragsol3> and he controled DARMA it is possible they wre trying <+B2-dragsol3> to do soemthign evil <+B2-dragsol3> i didnt have time to present arguments so im trying to make time <+B2-dragsol3> it is obvious thta ben had the power to kill everyone wihtt he gas well before season 4 <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> oops <@TheAma1> sorry ;) <@TheAma1> yo uhave 3 more mns <+B2-dragsol3> ben has only lied when neccessary <+B2-dragsol3> he has put himself in danger such as going to the hatch to help locke <@TheAma1> You have an additional two minutes to speak. This extra-time was accepted by the opposing team as you are alone. <@TheAma1> you have 4 mns left <+B2-dragsol3> all of his so called evil acts have resulted in some good reactions <+B2-dragsol3> such as allowing locke to start his true path <+B2-dragsol3> while i do beleive that locke is not the so clled choen one, he seems important <@TheAma1> 3 mbs <@TheAma1> mns* <+B2-dragsol3> it seems that the person who has cause locke to do these good things for the island is ben <@polarbear> *whom <@TheAma1> 2 mns <+B2-dragsol3> it is also seems likly that ben feels reforse for killing DARMA <+B2-dragsol3> he sees that it was necessary becuase the island told him so <+B2-dragsol3> but as he said a person destinay is not always what they choose <+B2-dragsol3> sometimes we must do things that seem bad <@TheAma1> 1 mn <+B2-dragsol3> to result in soemthign good <+B2-dragsol3> DARMA was evil and the island is good and inorder for good things to happen ben must do bad things <+B2-dragsol3> basically this is saying the end justifies the means <+B2-dragsol3> and therefore ben is good <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> Has any of the judges questions? <@TheAma1> for clarification <@Lemonade> I don't have any, both teams were very clear. <@TheAma1> has team 1 questions for clarification? <+A1-manicmonoliths> no, drag makes a good argument <+A2-Ikkl> You said Ben acts for the greater good. Was it for the greater good to disregard Jacob's will and shoot Locke? <@TheAma1> okay <+A2-Ikkl> Oh sorry <@TheAma1> no no its okay <+A1-manicmonoliths> no go ahead:) <@TheAma1> team 2 <@TheAma1> you have 2 mns to answer A1-manicmonoliths <@TheAma1> A2-Ikkl* <@TheAma1> now. <+B2-dragsol3> was he really disregarding jacobs will or wa it set up to happen that way <+B2-dragsol3> we have never heard anyhting from jacobs mouth <+B2-dragsol3> ben seems to be the mastermind here <+B2-dragsol3> it seems possible thta everything locke has done is apart of a plan <+B2-dragsol3> locke did not die <+B2-dragsol3> the shot seems to be one of those things to help locke <+B2-dragsol3> after he was shot he believed in jacob <+B2-dragsol3> before hand all he did was question jacobs existence <+B2-dragsol3> now he knows he is realy and is trying to develope a plan <+B2-dragsol3> all becuase ben shot him <@TheAma1> thank you for this response <@TheAma1> bit has graceously opened two rooms <@TheAma1> for both team <@TheAma1> to get some help if they need to <@TheAma1> #team-ben-good <@TheAma1> and <@TheAma1> #team-ben-evil <@TheAma1> both team can enter the rooms <@TheAma1> if they want to <@TheAma1> okay
Part Three: Discussion-counter
<@TheAma1> It is now time for Round Three <@TheAma1> discussion about counter-arguments <@TheAma1> this is basically the same as round two, except here this is about crushing the opposing arguments :) <@TheAma1> 5 minutes for each team <@TheAma1> team 1 <@TheAma1> you're up <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> now <+A1-manicmonoliths> drag you say that Ben acts for the greater good <+A2-Ikkl> But this isn't true <+A1-manicmonoliths> is killing close to 100 innocent DI scientists good? <+A1-manicmonoliths> what greater good is that? <+A1-manicmonoliths> killing his father? What is the greater good? <+A2-Ikkl> PLUS, he was not asked to let Goodwin die <+A2-Ikkl> That seems to be for his own selfish means (getting Juliet) <+A1-manicmonoliths> Yes, letting goodwin die was all for himself! We have yet to see, what exactly this greater good is! <+A1-manicmonoliths> You also make the point that Jacob may have told Ben to kill Locke, this can't be true! <+A1-manicmonoliths> We heard Jacob asking Locke to help him, why would Jacob then ask Ben to kill Locke, that doesn't make any sense I'm afraid! <@TheAma1> 2 mns left <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ben shot Locke because he was upset that Jacob has found a new chosen one! He did it because he was afraid of losing control! <+A2-Ikkl> Exactly^ <+A2-Ikkl> His own selfish purposes just like with Goodwin <+A2-Ikkl> With no thought for the consequences for anyone else <@TheAma1> 1 mn left <+A2-Ikkl> In fact it seems the only reasons to Jacob is because it puts him in power <+A2-Ikkl> In fact it seems the only reason he listens to Jacob is because it got him power <+A2-Ikkl> He just likes being in control over people <+A2-Ikkl> Like Juliet and the other Others <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> It is now time for team 2 <@TheAma1> or should I sayd B2-dragsol3 <@TheAma1> -d <@TheAma1> to make his counter <@TheAma1> B2-dragsol3 you also have 5 minutes <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> ok first that ben is a liar, does lying really mean that you are evil <+B2-dragsol3> lying can lead to good results <+B2-dragsol3> if done i nthe right way <+B2-dragsol3> yes ben is acting on hsi free will, which shows he is doing all this for a reason <+B2-dragsol3> if ben had the ability to just kill everyone but didnt, what does that say about him <+B2-dragsol3> it says he is good, and everythign he is doing is for the isalnd and the world <+B2-dragsol3> a possible interpretation of the number is the end of the world (i dont have tiem to explain) <+B2-dragsol3> if darma was trying to change the number and possible brignt he end of the world <+B2-dragsol3> ben stopped them <+B2-dragsol3> he killed and lied but it was neccarry <@TheAma1> 2 mns left <+B2-dragsol3> the greater good to save the world was worth those lives <+B2-dragsol3> jacob knows what must be done and ben is his instriment, for now <+B2-dragsol3> overall it is clear that ben could eb much worse but isnt <@TheAma1> 1 mn left <+B2-dragsol3> if he just wanted power <+B2-dragsol3> he would have developed a dictatorship <+B2-dragsol3> but he didnt <+B2-dragsol3> he did what was neccessary to have the people work together <+B2-dragsol3> while it wasnt perfect <+B2-dragsol3> it was neccessary <@TheAma1> okay <@TheAma1> thank you for this counter B2-dragsol3 <@TheAma1> ladies and gentlemen <@TheAma1> it is now time <@TheAma1> for a 10 mns break <@TheAma1> we'll be right back in 10 mns with the Q&A <@TheAma1> thank you to all the people who have submitted us questions :) <@TheAma1> see you in 10 mns! * @Lemonade hands over a glass of ice cold Lemonade to all <@TheAma1> :)
Ten-Minute Break (ADVERTISEMENTS)
<@TheAma1> During the break <@TheAma1> be sure to check out the Awesome Article of the Week <@TheAma1> AKA the Charladay article <@TheAma1> http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Charladay <@TheAma1> Other interesting websites include: <@TheAma1> http://afterlost.glassoforange.co.uk <@TheAma1> Muffindrop.com <@TheAma1> bash.lostpedia.com <@TheAma1> and <@TheAma1> http://lpircstats.googlepages.com/index.html <@TheAma1> Okay <@TheAma1> the debate is gonna start in a minute or so <@TheAma1> ;)
Part Four: Q&A
<@TheAma1> Okay people <@TheAma1> welcome back to the debate! :) <@TheAma1> We are now entering Round Four <@TheAma1> probably the most interesting one <@TheAma1> The Q&A! <@TheAma1> The following questions have been submitted to us by various people ;) <@TheAma1> We will start by a general question <@TheAma1> asked to both team SIMULTANEOUSLY <@TheAma1> both team will be voiced <@TheAma1> simmultaneously <@TheAma1> welcome back packerswes4 <@TheAma1> as I was saying <@TheAma1> both team will be voiced simultaneously <@TheAma1> up to them to avoid chaos...or create it. <@TheAma1> I first question tonight <@TheAma1> was asked by <@TheAma1> JackwithaBeard <@TheAma1> The question is the following: <@TheAma1> I'd like to see a definition of "good" and "evil"...as these may be defined differently by different people, especially by the two teams <@TheAma1> Both teams have 5 mns to answer <@TheAma1> Your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> we'd like to answer that one first if you don't mind <+A1-manicmonoliths> we'll define evil as we see it <+A2-Ikkl> Evils is doing bad things for the wrong reasons <+A1-manicmonoliths> It can also include doing bad things for good reasons <+A2-Ikkl> If you do something bad without an outcome good enought to support it <+B2-dragsol3> ok <+B2-dragsol3> but has ben done thigns like that <+B2-dragsol3> a bad act for no reason, besides goodwin <+A2-Ikkl> Locke <+A1-manicmonoliths> dragsol3 we're not talking about Ben just yet, we're talking about what 'evil' is? <+A2-Ikkl> That was just for him <+B2-dragsol3> was shoting locke really a bad act, he didnt die and he is on the right ath now <+B2-dragsol3> how do you knw that shooting locke was just for him <+A1-manicmonoliths> no one said anything about Ben. What is 'good' and what is 'evil'? <+B2-dragsol3> jacob could have ordered it <+B2-dragsol3> im using it as an example <+A1-manicmonoliths> But you're not answering the question I'm afraid, what would you define as evil? <+B2-dragsol3> i think the clear definition of good is an act toward the greater good, doing things that will result in the most good for the most people <+B2-dragsol3> shootign lock, and not killing him, helped everyone more <+A1-manicmonoliths> But what if doing the most good for the most people also means that you must hurt others <+B2-dragsol3> true, i would agree that an evil act is one that results in no good, but killing soem soemtimes helps others <+A2-Ikkl> Do 100s of people deserve to die just to makea few happy? <@TheAma1> 30 scs left <+A1-manicmonoliths> 'most' is not the same as 'all', some people will suffer, is that fair to the minority? <+B2-dragsol3> he ddnt make a few happy <+A1-manicmonoliths> Is it right to kill someone to save another person's life? <+B2-dragsol3> he could have possible saved the world <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> Now, it is time for a team-specific question <@TheAma1> we will begin with Team A <@TheAma1> Team A will have 4 mns to answer <@TheAma1> then Team B <@TheAma1> will have 1 minute to counter <@TheAma1> A-Team, your question was asked by Kadaj: Who is Mr. T? <@TheAma1> But seriously though <@TheAma1> the real question was asked by Lemonade <@TheAma1> Lemonade, please ask your question <@Lemonade> You said "locking Juliet and Jack in the flooding Hydra, even though he loves Juliet" demonstrates Ben's cowardice. You cited several other examples to illustrate that Ben is selfish. One could argue, using the same examples, however, that Ben is brave and selfless, and is not afraid to do what is needed to serve a higher purpose. Counters to this? <@TheAma1> okay <@TheAma1> Team A <@TheAma1> you have 4 minutes to answer <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <@TheAma1> 3 mns left <@TheAma1> 2 mns left <+A1-manicmonoliths> I'm afraid I'm finding it difficult to understand the question <+A2-Ikkl> Sorry I had a few problems <@TheAma1> Team A you've got 4 more mintues since you timed out <+A2-Ikkl> I'm back now <+A1-manicmonoliths> sorry please excuse us! I was having problems too! <@TheAma1> [21:23:41] <Lemonade> You said "locking Juliet and Jack in the flooding Hydra, even though he loves Juliet" demonstrates Ben's cowardice. You cited several other examples to illustrate that Ben is selfish. One could argue, using the same examples, however, that Ben is brave and selfless, and is not afraid to do what is needed to serve a higher purpose. Counters to this? <+A2-Ikkl> Well, I don't see what higher purpose letting Juliet die could hold <@TheAma1> your time has started ;) <+A2-Ikkl> Plus if Jack drowned Ben'd die anyway so saving his own skin isn't a wise move <+A2-Ikkl> From the ol' spinal tumor <+A1-manicmonoliths> yes I agree Ikkl, killing two people serves a higher purpose? That is a flawed argument! <@TheAma1> To those who are reading us, Team A "timed out" and had technical difficulties, 4 minutes (now 3) have been graciously given to them <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ben has demonstrated that he is just out to protect himself <+A2-Ikkl> And killing Goodwin only served to remove compotition for Juliet's affections for Ben <+A2-Ikkl> And shooting Locke goes DIRECTLY against Jacob's will <+A2-Ikkl> Who asked Locke to help him <+A1-manicmonoliths> yes, there was nothing brave about letting Goodwin die, there was no higher purpose <+A2-Ikkl> Ben is looking out for one person - Ben <+A1-manicmonoliths> that is exactly right! <@Lemonade> If you are willing to sacrifice the life of someone you love, if it means working towards a greater purpose, are you good or evil? <+A1-manicmonoliths> He is selfish, he cares only about himself and does whatever takes so that he can get it! <+A1-manicmonoliths> He was only sacraficing Juliet to save himself! <@TheAma1> 1 mn <+A1-manicmonoliths> He even let his own daughter Alex be killed to protect himself from Keamy <@TheAma1> As one might say <@TheAma1> I pity the fool who timed out! <@TheAma1> thank you team A for your answer <@TheAma1> Team B, it is now your turn to counter <@TheAma1> You have a minute to counter <@TheAma1> Your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> I would agree with this statment, a person point of view may determine how you brand ben, doing soemthing thta may seem evil is not neccessarily an evil act <+B2-dragsol3> first lests look at keemy <+B2-dragsol3> ben allowed his daughter to be kill, for a reason <+B2-dragsol3> that is becuase even if ben came out <+B2-dragsol3> she would have been shot <@TheAma1> 15 scs <+B2-dragsol3> bens worth as a memeber of the island outweighed alex's life <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> It is now time for another team-specific question <@TheAma1> this time asked to team B <@TheAma1> this question <@TheAma1> was asked to us by a zombie <@TheAma1> Eko <@TheAma1> The question is: <@TheAma1> How do you justify Ben's motives for ordering Mikhail to kill Bonnie and Greta, two of his own people? <@TheAma1> Team B you have 4 mns to answer <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> bonnie and breta were off the path, their death assured that the isalnd stay hidden from witmore <+B2-dragsol3> if they were turned and the beacon turned off, then witmore could find the island <+B2-dragsol3> which happened <+B2-dragsol3> this goes back tot he idea of the greater good <+B2-dragsol3> it is my theory that th island hold the key and could end up as the end of the world <+B2-dragsol3> bonnie and greta could have turned off the ebacon, which happened <+B2-dragsol3> so ther deaths do seem pointless since it happen, but ben was trying to cover his bases <+B2-dragsol3> he saw that if he didnt kill them then the beacon was going to be turned offf <+B2-dragsol3> but by killing him, mikhail had a chance to stop it <+B2-dragsol3> so their deaths were necessary to stop a much greater evil <+B2-dragsol3> the end of the world <+B2-dragsol3> must must be rmeembered is that ben is getting his choices from jacob <+B2-dragsol3> who knows what must happen <@TheAma1> less than 1 mn left <+B2-dragsol3> ben knew he had to keep that beaon on <+B2-dragsol3> and killing bonnie and greta was necessary <@TheAma1> 30 scs <+B2-dragsol3> to the beacon stay on, possibly <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> team a <@TheAma1> you have a minute to counter <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> I'm sorry dragsol3, I don't agree that their deaths were necessary. Ben didn't need to kill them to ensure the beacon stayed active <+A1-manicmonoliths> he could have simply told Bonnie and Greta to keep the Beacon active <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> now it is time for another general question <@TheAma1> This next question was asked by <@TheAma1> misti_is_lost <@TheAma1> the question says <@TheAma1> On topic 4, we (as of yet) don't the reasons behind Ben's actions. Can both teams explain the possible GOOD reasons for Ben's actions? <@TheAma1> It is up to both teams to understand the question <@TheAma1> and answer it <@TheAma1> in a timely fashin <@TheAma1> as one Mr. Halliwax would say <@TheAma1> both team will be voiced simultaneously <@TheAma1> Your 5 mn time <@TheAma1> starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> as i said before ti seems very likly that the island has much higher purpose such as the the portection of the world <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ok there are possible good reasons, he could be trying to protect the Island from Charles Widmore, but even if he's acting towards a greater good, he can't simply do whatever it takes to achieve it! <+B2-dragsol3> he must <+B2-dragsol3> event he deaths of all of darma is worth protecting the world <+B2-dragsol3> the isalnd is important <+A1-manicmonoliths> Why do we assume that Charles Widmore (CW) will be bad for the Island? <+A2-Ikkl> But is he really protecting the world <+A2-Ikkl> We don't know this <+B2-dragsol3> i think that is incorrect for a few reasons <+A1-manicmonoliths> I'm sorry drag, but DHARMA was set up to protect the world, not destroy it! <+B2-dragsol3> first, the "hostils", ben and his team <+B2-dragsol3> had control of the isalnd for a long time <+B2-dragsol3> possible hundrend of years <+B2-dragsol3> if they were evil, they had tons of time to distroy the world <+B2-dragsol3> but they didnt <@TheAma1> 3 mns left <+A1-manicmonoliths> And how would they do that? <+B2-dragsol3> as seem inthe last seconds of the last episode the island can move <+B2-dragsol3> they protect the island from epopel who wish to doe vil <+B2-dragsol3> as ben has said formt he begininf, we are the good guys <+B2-dragsol3> they are the protectors of the isalnd <+A1-manicmonoliths> How would a tribe of Hostiles living on the Island be able to destroy the world? We have never seen any evidence that the Hostiles have this kind of power! <+A1-manicmonoliths> Are we just supposed to take Ben's word for this? <+B2-dragsol3> well whats the alternative <+B2-dragsol3> they are alle vila nd wan to distroy the world? <+B2-dragsol3> sorry "they are all evil <+A2-Ikkl> Ben wants power, no-one mentioned that the Others were evil <+A2-Ikkl> I think of them as misguided followers of Ben who is evil <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ben says 'we're the good guys', that's not true, they kidnap children and pregnant women, they hung Charlie from a tree, Ben went in to their camp himself to spy as Henry Gale <+B2-dragsol3> if he just wants power then he could have taken other action <@TheAma1> less than 1 mns <@TheAma1> -s <+B2-dragsol3> all fort he greater good <+A2-Ikkl> Suggest some other action <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ben is their leader and he orders the Others to do these evil things <+A2-Ikkl> Exactly <+B2-dragsol3> jacob orders <+B2-dragsol3> not ben <@TheAma1> 10 scs <+A2-Ikkl> Ben does not follow Jacobs orders as we've shown <+B2-dragsol3> he carries out order to do the greater good <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> This debate is brought to you by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. Don't hesitate to use and abuse this awesome, and yet free, online dictionary! ;) <@TheAma1> It is now time for another team-specific question <@Smiley> In Lost, Ben is generally regarded as the villain, especially during Season 3. How is it so that you think that the viewers have been misled to greatly? <@TheAma1> this time for team b <@TheAma1> team B you have 4 mns to answer this question by Smiley <@TheAma1> your time <@TheAma1> starts <@TheAma1> FRESH <@TheAma1> oops wrong channel <@TheAma1> as I was saying <@TheAma1> your time <@TheAma1> starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> ok, it is obvious that the worters are using misdirection <+B2-dragsol3> writer, sorry <+B2-dragsol3> anyway, the thing abotut people is thta they are very short sighted <+B2-dragsol3> they are unable to step back and look at the bigger picture <+B2-dragsol3> sure if you lookat the specific events, ben may seem evil <+B2-dragsol3> but the fact is that the isalnd has a purpose <+B2-dragsol3> ben, jacob and allt he toher have have possible hundreds of years to controlt he island <+B2-dragsol3> the world is still running so they must be doing soemthig right <+B2-dragsol3> now i will agree that it is possible i am being mislead into thinking ben is good <+B2-dragsol3> however based ont he curent evidence i wl say ben is good <+B2-dragsol3> soemtimes people cant handel the fact that good leader have to do bad things <+B2-dragsol3> ben had to sign orders for kidnaping people and killign people <+B2-dragsol3> evey leader must make those choices to force a better good to happen <+B2-dragsol3> sot he viewers may think ben is evil right now <+B2-dragsol3> but its not ture <+B2-dragsol3> all of his action will be revieled as good actions <@TheAma1> thank you <@TheAma1> team A <@TheAma1> one minute to counter <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> I'm sorry, the writers have shown that Ben is evil <+A1-manicmonoliths> they have shown us his actions, killing his father, the Dharma Initiative, kidnapping, abduction, <@TheAma1> thanks <@TheAma1> Okay <@TheAma1> now it is time for another question <@TheAma1> here asked to team A <@TheAma1> the worter of this question is <@TheAma1> I mean...the writer of this question is <@TheAma1> N-NewPollution <@TheAma1> the question asked is the following <@TheAma1> Are ben's evil qualities simply due to his upbringing, from Roger blaming him for the death of his mother, and living on the island? <@TheAma1> it is time for team a <@TheAma1> you have 4 mns <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ok even if his father raised him badly he's still evil! <+A2-Ikkl> They are probably a factor towards it though <+A1-manicmonoliths> You can't just kill people then say 'It's not my fault, my Daddy never loved me!' <+A2-Ikkl> Spending all the time alone - from a young age he was probably the center of his own world <+A2-Ikkl> But regardless still evil <+A2-Ikkl> Like manic said <+A1-manicmonoliths> We're not saying that Ben's father was right, no of course not! He was a terrible father, but still Ben is an individual, he choses to do what he does, he choses to do evil things <+A2-Ikkl> Exactly <+A1-manicmonoliths> All evil people such as criminals probably have events in their lives that caused them to be evil, but it still doesn't justify them! <@TheAma1> 1 mn <+A1-manicmonoliths> We can't blame Roger Linus for all the evil things that Ben has done. <@TheAma1> thank you for this <@TheAma1> it is time for team b to counter <@TheAma1> in one minute <@TheAma1> team b, your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> i dotn think that those event caused him to become evil, they caused him to becoem a leader becuase he had no one to foloow, its true that all of his choices were not perfect, but a leader has to do these kinds of things <+B2-dragsol3> what the island wanted was for ben to be independent <+B2-dragsol3> not having agood father was apart of bens destiny <+B2-dragsol3> as i said these actions are nto evil <+B2-dragsol3> they were a part of making ben the man he is <@TheAma1> thanks <@TheAma1> Our next question was asked by P1k4chu: <@TheAma1> Are the catchphrases "Gotta Catch 'Em All" or "Epic Fail" potentially good ones to refer to the Purge? Or is "Pwnd" better suited? <@TheAma1> Kadaj, please stop using my IRC account! <@TheAma1> Now back to the real questions <@TheAma1> this last, and general, question was asked by <@TheAma1> BauerUK <@TheAma1> the question asked is the following <@TheAma1> Ben's actions have always been motivated by one thing: the Island. How does the fact that Ben receives orders from another party (ie. The Island, Jacob, Richard Alpert, etc.) affect your stance on Ben being good/evil? <@TheAma1> team a AND team b <@TheAma1> will be voiced simultaneously <@TheAma1> a total of 5 mns will be given to answer this final question <@TheAma1> Team A and Team B <@TheAma1> your 5-mn time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> 'BauerUK' are you sure you're on the right channel? ;) This is Lost not 24. Anyway, we'll answer your question :) <+B2-dragsol3> i think they show that ben is not neccessarly good or evil int he most basic terms, ben is a tool, he does what he needs to for the greater good <+A1-manicmonoliths> I disagree that Ben is taking orders <+B2-dragsol3> ben must follow hard orders to help the greater amount of people <+A1-manicmonoliths> he is certainly not taking orders from Richard <+B2-dragsol3> i agree <+B2-dragsol3> but jacob (or the island) is giving orders <+B2-dragsol3> ben has to follow them to achieve the greater good <+A2-Ikkl> Ben only listens to Jacob because it puts him in power, in control <+A1-manicmonoliths> remember when Richard told Locke that Ben was wasting their time with pregnancy issues? If Ben was taking orders from Richard, then Richard wouldn't let him waste time. <+A2-Ikkl> That's where he likes to be <+A2-Ikkl> That's why he doesn't always obey Jacob :) <+B2-dragsol3> however the island could by lying <+A1-manicmonoliths> that's right Ikkl, and we have seen Ben disobey Jacob, when he shot Locke <+B2-dragsol3> but that also why ben is not the chosen one <+A1-manicmonoliths> Why would the Island lie? That doesn't make sense! <+B2-dragsol3> for the last tiem JACOB TOLD BEN TO SHOOT LOCKE <+A1-manicmonoliths> The Island gave Ben a tumour on his spine, this proves that he was supposed die! <+B2-dragsol3> what i mean is that the island could be misleading ben <+A1-manicmonoliths> The Island heals people who it feels are worthy, that's why it healed Locke's paralyisis and Rose's cancer <+B2-dragsol3> maybe ben was neer the chosen one <@TheAma1> 2 mns <+B2-dragsol3> ben could ahve been a tool to help the real chosen one <+B2-dragsol3> ben had to dot he things he did to achive the protecton of the island <+A1-manicmonoliths> The Island wanted Ben to step down as leader, so it gave him a tumour. Also Ben couldn't hear Jacob's voice in the Cabin, he didn't hear Jacob asking Locke to 'Help him' <@TheAma1> 1 mn <+B2-dragsol3> sayign en is really good or evil is irrlevent, he does what he need to do to protect the island <+A1-manicmonoliths> We have seen no evidence to suggest that Ben is following anyone's orders but his own. <+B2-dragsol3> i dotn agree <+A1-manicmonoliths> Killing Goodwin protected the Island did it? How? <+B2-dragsol3> that is where i will agree with you <+B2-dragsol3> bn killed goodwin for his own personal gain <@TheAma1> Thanks to both team for this. <@TheAma1> Pink shirts will be given out by Kadaj's boyfriend at the end of the debate to all participants. <@TheAma1> But wait, we have a final round!
Part Five: Closing
<@TheAma1> Indeed, the final round is the closing argument(s) <@TheAma1> each team leader will be given 3 mns <@TheAma1> to make the closing <@TheAma1> we will start with Team A's leader <@TheAma1> Manic Monoliths <@TheAma1> Manic <@TheAma1> you have 3 minutes <@TheAma1> to make your closing <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+A1-manicmonoliths> Thank you TheAma1. I'd first like to congratulate dragsol3 on his argument, it couldn't have been easy by yourself so well done. <+A1-manicmonoliths> Ikkl and I have set out to show that Ben is evil. <+A1-manicmonoliths> We have shown that he is cowardly, he sacrafices people to protect himself <+A1-manicmonoliths> We have shown he is selfish, he kills people for personal gain, not for the greater good! <+A1-manicmonoliths> We have shown he is a liar, he pretended to be Henry Gale to infiltrate the 815 camp <+A1-manicmonoliths> We have shown that he is a murderer, he has killed his own father along with numerous others <+A1-manicmonoliths> These are not the actions of a good person! <+A1-manicmonoliths> Even if Ben is serving some 'greater good', do the ends justify the means? <+A1-manicmonoliths> Is it ok to kill 100 Dharma scientists? Is it ok to prevent the 815 survivors from returning home? <+A1-manicmonoliths> I don't think so! <@TheAma1> Thank you Manic Monoliths. <@TheAma1> It is time for Team B. <@TheAma1> Dragsol3 will make the closing. <@TheAma1> Dragsol3, you have 3 minutes <@TheAma1> your time starts <@TheAma1> NOW <+B2-dragsol3> Thank you TheAma1 and my opponents, i have done my best to presnt a convincing argument <+B2-dragsol3> i have shown that ben is in fact good <+B2-dragsol3> his actions suhch as killing and kidnapping were doen to save the world <+B2-dragsol3> as i said before people ahve a hard time seeing the big picture <+B2-dragsol3> Ben is a tool of the island and the isalnd was made to protectt he world <+B2-dragsol3> bens action may seem evil, but it is only becuase we have trouble saying that soemthign evil can brng about good <+B2-dragsol3> infultrationt he hatch, killign darma, and many more thing were all neccessary to save the world <+B2-dragsol3> we will see int he future episodes that ben was required to do these things <+B2-dragsol3> ben had to make a choice between saving the world or allowing it to die <+B2-dragsol3> a leader must do what is right to help the most people <+B2-dragsol3> we may not always agree with the actions <+B2-dragsol3> but they are needed <@TheAma1> Thank you Dragsol3 for this closing <@TheAma1> before we go <@TheAma1> We have a special guest amongst us <@TheAma1> This is unfortunately not Jorge Garcia :( <@TheAma1> C1-danhm, you can talk ;) <@C1-danhm> Thank you Ama, and my opponents, for such a thrilling argument. <@TheAma1> You are welcome my friend. <@C1-danhm> I would like to take this team as a representative of Team IRC and Team C to bring up a point that has been flatly ignored. <@C1-danhm> It has come to our attention here that Ben is Kate. <@TheAma1> Interesting point indeed. <@C1-danhm> "What?!" you may be asking amongst yourselves <@C1-danhm> It is obvious to us -- remember in the end of TTLG, when Jack was beating Ben senseless? <@C1-danhm> Why did he not fight back? <@C1-danhm> He loves him. <@C1-danhm> Kate loves Jack. <@C1-danhm> That is all. <@TheAma1> Thank you <@TheAma1> C1-danhm :) <@TheAma1> We are now going to close this debate <@TheAma1> Thank you to ALL members of this debate <@TheAma1> Thanks to ALL the people who have sent excellent questions <@TheAma1> and of course <@Lemonade> Thank you A1-manicmonoliths, A2-Ikkl, and B2-dragsol3 for entertaining us for almost 2 hours <@TheAma1> a big thank you to all viewers <@TheAma1> Have any of the judges something to add? <@TheAma1> I would like to add that <@TheAma1> The LP members <@TheAma1> are going to be able to vote for their favorite team <@TheAma1> starting in a few mns <@TheAma1> the poll will go on until monday night <@TheAma1> the poll equals to one vote <@TheAma1> The results will be announced Tuesday. <@Lemonade> And one final thing before we finish. <@Lemonade> We will be having another debate (with 8 team members) next week. <@TheAma1> All we be posted on the LP board <@TheAma1> over at <@TheAma1> http://forum.lostpedia.com/ <@Lemonade> Over and out. :) <@TheAma1> thank you everyone <@TheAma1> Good luck <@TheAma1> AND GOOD NIGHT
Event Winner
The winner of the May 11, 2008 debate: Team A (The Black Rock Crew / Arguing 'Ben is Evil')
