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Lostpedia Debate League - Event no. 4
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TOPIC:          Spoilers do not diminish the LOST viewing experience.
HOSTED BY:      Lemonade
JUDGES:         KittyLili, TokyoRose, BauerUK, Kadaj, LP Members

DATE:           Sunday 08th Jun 2008
TIME:           1900HRS BST(GMT+1) London
VENUE:          #lostpedia at irc.gamesurge.net
POPULATION:     Avg. 61 people

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What follows is a log of the entire event in verbatim.

------------------------------------------------

Introduction

<@Lemonade> THE OFFICIAL LOSTPEDIA DEBATE LEAGUE 2008 (EVENT #4) IS ABOUT TO BEGIN.
<@Lemonade> Hello fellow Losties.
<@Lemonade> Coming to you LIVE, from #lostpedia at GameSurge, this is Event #4 of the official lostpedia debate league.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> I will be your host for this event.
<@Lemonade> The channel will be moderated during the debate, which means only the judges, mods, and the team members will be abl
e to speak.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> Viewers can type /join #lpdebate to discuss the arguments presented by the teams as the debate progresses.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> The Topic
<@Lemonade> "It felt like I had been planning a surprise party for a year for my wife, and then one of her friends called the ni
ght before and ruined it." -- Damon Lindelof on leakage of season 3 finale spoilers.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> "I prefer to give people the choice in what they read rather than dictating how people should act and what they shou
ld read. It's called democracy." -- A well-known LOST spoilers website.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> "Meh, spoilers schmoilers." -- Anonymous.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> In today’s debate we will try to dissect an issue that has been hotly contested on LOST message boards over the past
 few weeks.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> The topic:  "Spoilers do not diminish the LOST viewing experience."
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> For the purpose of this debate, we define a spoiler as "something that gives away information about future episodes 
of the show that have not yet been aiready."
<@Lemonade> been aired already*
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> The Players
<@Lemonade> Before we begin, I would like to spend a few minutes introducing our participants, and summarizing the debate format
.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> We have four very distinguished participants for today's event.
<@Lemonade> Arguing in favor of spoilers is Team A:  A1-danhm (#lostpedia OP), and A2-ikkl (Winner of event 1.)
<+A2-ikkl> That's us!
<+A1-danhm> :)
<@Lemonade> And arguing against the motion is Team B:  B1-TheAma1 (#lostpedia OP), and B2-manicmonoliths (Winner of event 1.)
<+B1-TheAma1> Hey peeps :)
<+B2-manicmonoliths> hi!
<@Lemonade> Thanks folks. :-)
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> We also have a very special guest today -- DocArzt, a name that is arguably as well known amongst hardcore LOST fans
 as that of "Darlton."
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> DocArzt is the proprietor of www.docarzt.com, and his writing has been featured on UGO, CraveOnline, TheTailsection,
 BuddyTV, The California Chronicle, and The Seattle Post Intelligencer.
<@Lemonade> He has had first hand experience of interviewing such stalwarts as Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse...
<@Lemonade> ...and Josh Holloway, Jorge Garcia, Michael Emerson, Yunjin Kim, Rebecca Mader, William Mapother, and several others
.
<@Lemonade> Also, don’t forget to check out his new book titled "Lost Ate My Life: The Inside Story of a Fandom Like No Other," 
which comes out in November.
<@Lemonade> On behalf of Lostpedia, I would like to thank DocArzt for gracefully accepting our invitation to participate in toda
y’s event.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> The Debate Format
<@Lemonade> In an effort to keep the debate structured and focused, we have revamped the format for this week’s event.
<@Lemonade> The debate will be "compartmentalized" into 6 distinct issues.
<@Lemonade> Though the issues are all related to spoilers, they are mutually exclusive.
<@Lemonade> This has been done to ensure that there is minimal overlap/repetition of arguments from one issue to another, and th
at all the relevant subtopics are touched upon.
<@Lemonade> I request that team members carefully analyze and debate ONLY the issue that is under consideration, at any given ti
me.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> For every issue, the first team will have 3 minutes to make their case.
<@Lemonade> The opponent will have 2 minutes to present a counter-argument.
<@Lemonade> This will be followed by a 5 minute "team interaction" phase where the meat of the issue will be discussed by both t
eams simultaneously.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> After all issues have been covered, teams will have ~5-10 minutes to bring up any points that were not discussed ear
lier.
<@Lemonade> This will be followed by a brief Q&A.
<@Lemonade> The debate will conclude with closing statements by both team leaders.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> DocArzt will serve a special purpose in today’s event.
<@Lemonade> Throughout the debate, he will be able to discuss issues with teams, both individually, and during the team interact
ion phase.
<@Lemonade> We hope that this will allow him to put forth his views for or against both sides in a balanced fashion, thereby giv
ing us unique insight into the problems at hand.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> For the convenience of our audience, I request both teams to use their team colors while presenting their arguments.
  [Team Pro Spoilers = blue,  Team Anti Spoilers = red.]
<@Lemonade> Finally, a quick reminder to our audience:  you can pose your viewer questions at any time by sending a private mess
age to KittyLili, either here (by double clicking on her nickname), or on the lostpedia forums.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> Team members, fingers poised over your keyboards...
<@Lemonade> The rest of us -- let's sit back, relax, and enjoy the event! :-)
<@Lemonade> Type /join #lpdebate if you wish to discuss the arguments presented by the team.
<@Lemonade> Here we go...

Issue One: Supply and Demand

<@Lemonade> Issue One: Supply and Demand
<@Lemonade> "The third most visited page (after the main and episodes pages) on Lostpedia is the spoiler page for Season 4 (over
 1.1 million views.)"
<@Lemonade> There is a demand for spoilers in the fan community, hence there is a supply.
<@Lemonade> We begin with Team A (Pro Spoilers.)
<@Lemonade> Team A, your 3 minutes start...
<@Lemonade> Now.
<+A1-danhm> This fact speaks for itself.
<+A1-danhm> It is quite obvious that Lost fans have a high desire to read spoilers
<+A2-ikkl> If people really want spoilers they should get them. That's fair. People who don't want them, don't have to have them
. :)
<+A1-danhm> Not only is the LP spoiler page very popular, but DocArzt's and DarkUFO's websites are very popular as well
<+A1-danhm> The mainstream media also has extensive coverage of Lost spoilers
<+A1-danhm> E! and TV Guide in particular
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left
<+A1-danhm> If no one wanted to hear/read/see them, they wouldn't be as well covered
<+A1-danhm> A google search for "lost spoilers" returns almost half a million webpages
<+A1-danhm> Simply stated, there is a huge demand for Lost spoilers
<@Lemonade> Thank you team A.
<@Lemonade> Team B (Anti Spoilers), you have 2 minutes to present your counter-argument.
<@Lemonade> ...and your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+B1-TheAma1> Thank you gentle sir.
<+B1-TheAma1> As Wendell Berry once said: "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the p
rivilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy."
<+B1-TheAma1> It is not because "some people" want to have spoilers that everybody else have to suffer the consequences! 
<+B2-manicmonoliths> this might seem like an odd comparison to bring up, but we could argue that there is also a demand for ille
gal drugs, does this make them a good thing?
<+B1-TheAma1> exactly, spoilers are a threat to us
<+B1-TheAma1> everybody is impacted by this
<+B2-manicmonoliths> Now without getting too deep here, people don't always know what's best for them, people sometimes want bad
 things
<+B1-TheAma1> we will counter Ikkl's statement that "People who don't want them, don't have to have them." later on as this is n
ot the issue at hand right now
<+B2-manicmonoliths> and even though there are people out there who want spoliers, there are plenty of people who DON'T want the
m too
<+B1-TheAma1> It is not because something is available that people should reach it, and at the same time it is not because some 
people want something that they should automatically get it.
<@Lemonade> Thank you team B.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt will now chime in with his views.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, it's all yours.
<+DocArzt> The question of demand doesn’t really address the issue of whether or not spoilers diminish the viewing experience.
<+DocArzt> For what I do, I'm glad there is an appetite for spoilers.
<+DocArzt> On the other hand, if the show - as a grand mystery - was not generating a strong desire to 'know', it wouldn't be as
 successful as it is.
<+DocArzt> Over and out.
<+DocArzt> ;)
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.
<@Lemonade> With the basic arguments in place for the first issue, both teams will now be able to interact with each other, posi
ng questions, and finding loopholes in the opponent’s argument.
<@Lemonade> Teams A and B, your 5 minutes start...
<@Lemonade> Now.
<+A1-danhm> "and even though there are people out there who want spoliers, there are plenty of people who DON'T want them too" -
- This is not a valid reason to disallow all spoilers, using the same logic you did.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> well if some people want something and others don't, how are we to decide who is right?
<+B1-TheAma1> the need of the many outweigh the need of the few 
<+A1-danhm> Here in the LP chat, we did a very good job of separating spoilers
<+A1-danhm> Durring the 2 weeks leading the the finale, the channel was in "lockdown/spoilcon"
<+A2-ikkl> And in the LP forums there were very few spoilers released in the MF.
<+B1-TheAma1> The introduction of Spoilcon 1 here was a pretty cool new feature, but hundreds (thousands?) of javausers were not
 able to enjoy my awesome Pikachu and Steve Holt coffin jokes because of it, and that ladies and gentlemen is a crime. Against 
Humanity.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok that may be true for LP chat, but can the same be said for other Lost websites? Mods can't act at the sp
eed of light
<+A1-danhm> There were only 2 isolated incidents of spoilage, and one even happened off the chat
<+B1-TheAma1> (and this is not the issue at hand anyway, the issue of spoilcon is latter on)
<+B1-TheAma1> later*
<+A1-danhm> Simply because some people have sensitive teeth doesn't mean that sugar should be outlawed
<+A2-ikkl> Exactly
<+B1-TheAma1> this is not a sensitive teeth issue
<+B1-TheAma1> the fact remains
<+A1-danhm> And even they might enjoy a candy bar every now and then
<+B1-TheAma1> spoilers do more harm than good
<+B2-manicmonoliths> well no that's true, but sometimes someone will slip a bit of sugar into your tea and then you're stuck are
n't you!
<+B1-TheAma1> sugar is a necessary component to our daily lives
<+DocArzt> But does that mean it is okay for people to run around pouring sugar down unsuspecting people's throats?
<+B1-TheAma1> spoiler is not.
<+B1-TheAma1> exactly Doc.
<+A2-ikkl> But some people really like spoilers and use them responsibly - it's not fair to punish them by taking awayspoilers
<+A1-danhm> Does a bad apple ruin the barrel, or just the apple?
<+B1-TheAma1> As we will explore later on, a LOT of "collateral damages" has been done for the price of spoiler
<@ChanServ> [AlaskaDave] <-ChanServ-> Banned *NewP* from #cabin for 2 years.
<@AlaskaDave> hey gys
<@AlaskaDave> *guys
<@AlaskaDave> :D
<+A2-ikkl> Hello there
<+A1-danhm> Keep in mind that Lost is a television show
<+B2-manicmonoliths> well if that one bad apple ruins things for everyone else, then I'd say that's a pretty bad thing
<+B1-TheAma1> hey dave :)
<+A1-danhm> It's not life or death
<+DocArzt> I think there a hierarchy.  Those who release, those who read, and those who are exposed without a choice.  I don't t
hink either side is deep enough into the argument to make a strong point.. yet. ;)
<+B2-manicmonoliths> it is for some Lost fans :)
<+B1-TheAma1> it is perhaps not life or death, but for fans, it is close to it.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> exactly
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left.
<+B1-TheAma1> Lost is a show like no other that implies a vast amount of time to be put into
<+A1-danhm> Does that warrant the elimination of all spoilers?
<+A2-ikkl> And some people don't want to wait that long amount of time :p
<+B2-manicmonoliths> why should  Lost fans have to isolate themselves from the online community because they are afraid of getti
ng spoiled
<+A1-danhm> So the fans who don't like them can make the rest of us suffer?
<+B2-manicmonoliths> spoilers simply cannot be controlled enough, it's the only way to keep things fair
<+A1-danhm> Why should Lost fans have to ignore the official podcasts?
<+A1-danhm> They spoil in that, too
<@Lemonade> Thank you folks.
<@Lemonade> We have plenty of time to address related issues.
<@Lemonade> So we keep moving.
<@Lemonade> Good luck for issue #2.

Issue Two: Writers' Right

<@Lemonade> Issue Two: Writers’ Right
<@Lemonade> "Releasing spoilers is distributing information about a story without the author's consent."
<@Lemonade> Both Damon and Carlton have openly voiced their frustrations regarding the leakage of season 3 finale spoilers.
<@Lemonade> This time team B goes first.
<@Lemonade> Team B, you have 3 minutes to present your case.
<@Lemonade> Please remember that there are 6 more issues to follow, so keep your arguments restricted to the issue mentioned.
<@Lemonade> Your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+B1-TheAma1> Thank you Lem.
<+B1-TheAma1> Clearly, the writers, and especially Darlton, are against spoilers. We can refer to for instance to the 2007 "FF d
ebacle" when Lindelof was seen saying the following: ''It felt like I had been planning a surprise party for a year for my wife 
and then one of her friends called the night before and ruined it.''
<+B1-TheAma1> Spoilers ultimately waste not only a year's wait for fans, but more importantly spoilers ruin HOURS of work and ef
fort put into the show by the crew and cast! 
<+B2-manicmonoliths> Damon and Carlton have rights as the creators of Lost to protect their show from being spoiled
<+B1-TheAma1> If you were to invest hours, days, months, years (!) into a show, thinking about it, day after day (for instance w
ho's in the coffin) and then someone jumps in and says: ITS LOCKE, that is a problem. A major one at that.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> a lot of the value of the show comes from D and C's ability to suprise us, but spoilers take away the supri
se, imagine how they feel!
<@Lemonade> 1 minute to go.
<+B1-TheAma1> Spoilers hurts every aspect of Lost, fans, cast, crew, story, everything. The show is also in the hands of the fan
s. We should protect it, nourish it.
<+B1-TheAma1> Spoilers are just that: there to SPOIL
<+B1-TheAma1> it is in our best interest to protect ourselves from them.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> if Damon and Carlton keep getting spoiled, they may decide to just do a press release summarising the rest 
of the show, what is the point of that?
<@Lemonade> Thank you team B!
<@Lemonade> Team A, you now have 2 minutes to present a counter-argument.
<@Lemonade> Your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now.
<+A1-danhm> While it is frustrating for Darlton and everyone else, they have to accept it is part of the business.
<+A1-danhm> While they seem to be ok with the minor spoilers that get leaked -- the centric, a minor thing that happens -- their
 issue is with the huge reveals
<+A1-danhm> However, they seem to come from someone who works for them
<+A1-danhm> Once the info is out, it spreads like wildfire
<+A2-ikkl> Almost every show has spoilers released about it
<+A1-danhm> "Information wants to be free", they say
<+A2-ikkl> It's something you should expect
<+A1-danhm> ABC spoils us, too
<+A2-ikkl> Especially if you want your show to become as big as LOST
<+A1-danhm> Every show, there are several sneak peaks
<@Lemonade> Thank you team A.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, please feel free to voice your opinion
<+DocArzt> I have one thing to say on this.  Take a few moments to watch this video and read the comments.
<+DocArzt> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x_WUb68RQo
<@Lemonade> Ama, change your nick please.
<+DocArzt> This more accurately depicts what happened with the season 3 spoilers. 
<B1-TheAma1> thx
<+DocArzt> Over and out. 
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt!
<@Lemonade> Teams A and B, you now have 5 minutes to go at each other. :-)
<@Lemonade> And your time starts...
<+B1-TheAma1> Again, the issue of the "importance of spoilers" is not the issue at hand now (but don't worry, it'll come just ne
xt). Let's reconcentrate on the real problem here: the morality of spoilers.
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> That video seems pretty split on people thinking it was funny, and others being disgusted
<+A1-danhm> Anything can be made to seem moral or immoral
<+A1-danhm> Stealing is immoral, right?
<+B1-TheAma1> can "spoilervores" be really considered "starving infants" though?
<+A1-danhm> No, they can't
<+B2-manicmonoliths> this issue here is about how the spoilers affect the creators of the show
<+A1-danhm> That is because spoiling isn't that unethical on the ethics gradient
<+B1-TheAma1> again, it is for fans
<+B2-manicmonoliths> why should an artist bother creating something like a TV show, if people are just going to spoil themselves
?
<+B1-TheAma1> I'm pretty sure the people that laughed at that were not real HP fans
<+B1-TheAma1> yeah
<+A1-danhm> The creators of the show (ABC in particular) releases spoilers themselves
<+A1-danhm> After every episode there is a preview
<+B1-TheAma1> two spoilers should be defined
<+A1-danhm> Sneak peaks, as I mentioned, are released
<+B1-TheAma1> official and non-official
<+B1-TheAma1> the difference is on the intent behind the spoiler
<+A1-danhm> We already have a definition of spoilers
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok minor spoilers yes, but in this instance I'm talking about major spoilers, such as the ending of season 
3
<+A1-danhm> Provided by Lemonade
<+B1-TheAma1> but I'll get into it on our next issue, because again, the issue here is morality
<+DocArzt> A sneak peak will never reveal a major twist... on purpose.
<+A1-danhm> I suggest we stick with that one, Ama
<+B1-TheAma1> isn't this a debate?
<+A1-danhm> It is a debate about the harm caused by spoilers, not what a spoiler is
<+B2-manicmonoliths> look we have a quote from Damon and Carlton stating that they are not happy with spoilers, that is proof en
ough that they don't like them!
<+B1-TheAma1> everyone has their own view vis à vis what a spoiler is
<+A1-danhm> We also know they work for a company that spoils us
<+B1-TheAma1> previews are spoilers, and LF108's msgs are too, the difference lies in the aim
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left.
<+B1-TheAma1> official spoilers like previews are meant to tease us
<+A1-danhm> ABC releases the guest star list for each episode
<+B1-TheAma1> LF108's posts are not meant to wet the appetites of fans
<+A1-danhm> There are huge reveals in that as well
<+B2-manicmonoliths> if D and C were in favour of spoilers, they wouldn't need to make Seasons 5 and 6, they could just post a s
ummary on LP
<+B1-TheAma1> as Doc stated on his blog: this on the contrary leads to fans hating the finale BEFORE EVEN SEEING IT
<+A1-danhm> For example, Penny & Henrik being listed for the Finale
<+DocArzt> LF108 is there to tell you what is going to happen.  The previews are there to entice you to tune in, by creating ant
icipation for what will happen, but not revealing it.
<+B1-TheAma1> exactly
<+A1-danhm> If a piece of art is good, you will enjoy it regardless what other people say about it
<+A2-ikkl> Here in Britian for the episode "23rd Psalm" we were shown the Monster in a trailer
<+A2-ikkl> The actual smoke monster
<@Lemonade> Thank you guys.
<@Lemonade> Before moving on to issue #3, I request participants to make sure they type in the right color.
<@Lemonade> Lot of people are watching you, and it is easier for them to follow your arguments this way. :-)

Issue Three: Tidbits

<@Lemonade> Issue Three: Tidbits of information about upcoming episodes add to the excitement and anticipation.
<@Lemonade> "There is a lot more to Lost than simple plot details -- character development, acting,  cinematography, etc."
<@Lemonade> Team A, you go first.  You have 3 minutes.
<@Lemonade> And your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now.
<+A1-danhm> I agree completely.
<+A1-danhm> Knowing the centric or that there is a kiss makes me anticipate the episode even more
<+A1-danhm> I can discuss it with fellow spoiler readers
<+A1-danhm> in #lost-spoilers we get very excited and speculate
<+A1-danhm> It is easier to speculate when you actually have information
<+A1-danhm> And we also get a thrill out of guessing something correctly
<+A2-ikkl> Indeedy
<+A1-danhm> Charladay (Faraday/Charlotte couple) is the chief example
<+A1-danhm> colors, ikkl
<@Lemonade> ikkl, please type in blue. 
<+A1-danhm> We called it here in the chat
<+A2-ikkl> Oops sorry
<@Lemonade> 1 minute to go.
<+A1-danhm> And as spoilers came out about a "kiss" in the finale we got very excited
<+A1-danhm> "kisses", even
<+A1-danhm> We would've had less to talk about had their not been even minor spoilers
<+A1-danhm> And we can only listen to Ama's STEVE HOLT jokes so many times :p
<@Lemonade> Thank you team A.
<@Lemonade> Team B has 2 minutes to counter.
<@Lemonade> And your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+B1-TheAma1> Again, this is your point of view (regarding the centricism = not that big of a spoil). Tidbits of information are
 different from LF108 spoilers, and ultimately everyone is entitled to a different POV regarding the "importance" of certain spo
ilers. I personnally consider trailers, guest list, and centricism to be spoilery (the consensus agrees with me on this). I also
 like to believe as I said previously on 2 kinds of spoilers with dif
<+B2-manicmonoliths> there's a huge difference between knowing the centric and knowing who's in the coffin.
<+B1-TheAma1> I was spoiled on the fact that Sun/Jin were next in line as for the centricism. Given the Oceanic Six storyline, i
t was obvious that one at the very least was one of the O6. Ergo: title, and centricism, are spoilers. Not the same kind of spoi
lers, but spoilers nontheless.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> that is exactly the point!
<+B2-manicmonoliths> even tibits of information can have large consequences
<@Lemonade> Thank you team B.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt...please feel free to chime in.
<+DocArzt> It's hard to determine what the minimum threshold for 'spoiler' is.
<+DocArzt> I never consider anything released by ABC marketing to be spoilers.
<+DocArzt> On the other hand, people that are so sensitive that they don't even watch the coming attractions at the end of an ep
isode probably shouldn't be coming online to begin with.
<+DocArzt> Over and out.
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.
<@Lemonade> Teams A and B, you have 5 minutes to interact.
<@Lemonade> Your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> Firstly, I apologize for using the wrong "there" earlier =/
<+A1-danhm> You brought up a good point, Ama
<+B1-TheAma1> did you mean elsewhere?
<+B1-TheAma1> thank you.
<+A1-danhm> Knowing the Sun/Jin centric may have spoiled you that they are the 06
<+A1-danhm> But did you guess that Jin wasn't?
<+A1-danhm> And that they would fake us out with the flashback and flashforward?
<+B1-TheAma1> That is besides the point, and as for this particular episode, the flashback/forward mix was more confusing than a
nything
<+B2-manicmonoliths> Even ABC press releases can reveal far too much about an episode, for example if the guestlist mentions a c
haracter who is think is dead, we suddenly start thinking that person is alive
<+A1-danhm> There are still many surprises to be had even if you know all the spoilers
<+B1-TheAma1> Penny was in the credits for the finale for godsakes!
<+A1-danhm> As DocArzt said, go hide in a cave if you are that sensitive :)
<+B1-TheAma1> If I did that, there would be no picture on lostpedia :)
<+DocArzt> The studios have to have some freedom to market their products.
<+B1-TheAma1> I don't deny that
<+B2-manicmonoliths> I'm sorry danhm, but if the majority of people don't want to see spoilers, hiding in a cave is a bit out of
 line!
<+A1-danhm> I don't know if I am spoiled by living in America, but I am used to having a freedom of speech
<+B1-TheAma1> the fact remains that these are spoilers (agreed upon on Lostpedia for instance)
<+A1-danhm> I do respect your spoiler-free wishes, but restricting me of my spoilers entirely is not right either
<+B1-TheAma1> Let's think of the greater good.
<+B1-TheAma1> Some people want weapons. Some people want drugs. Some people want spoilers.
<+A1-danhm> Spoilers are not a drug.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> it doesn't make them right though!
<+DocArzt> The online community has become sort of a double edged sword.  Alot of people do come here for the community and woul
d never look at a spoiler. 
<@Lemonade> 1 minute to go.
<+DocArzt> So it is a difficult point to make, saying that they should just not come online in the Lost world.
<+A1-danhm> (I can stop anytime! :P)
<+B2-manicmonoliths> exactly but sometimes those people accidently stumble on a spoiler and then their experience is ruined, tha
t is not fair
<+DocArzt> I agree.
<+A1-danhm> Ruined is POV, of course
<+B1-TheAma1> and by accidently I think manic means: People just spoiled them, intentionally.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> so why should those people have to 'hide in a cave'?
<+B1-TheAma1> why was spoilcon 1 here?
<+A1-danhm> So you guys didn't have to hide in a cave
<@Lemonade> Thank you guys.

Issue Four: Spoilers on the Online Community...

<@Lemonade> Issue Four:  Spoilers hurt the online community.
<@Lemonade> "Websites and forums go into lockdown mode, chat rooms prevent anonymous users from participating in LOST discussion
s.  Many fans simply avoid the online community till the episode airs."
<@Lemonade> Team B goes first.
<@Lemonade> Team B, your 3 minutes start...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok this was touched upon in the last topic
<+B2-manicmonoliths> why should spoiler free fans have to stay away from the online community? 
<+B1-TheAma1> exactly
<+B1-TheAma1> In Lost it's the journey that counts, not the ultimate facts. Why did TLE have so much success when people could h
ave just logged on lostpedia 3 months after and get the final results? The same thing could be said about the existence of popul
ar theory-websites, what is the point behind all of it if someone will ruin "the last page of the book"?
<+B1-TheAma1> Why should people refrain from doing the journey when others want to go in a jet to go to the finish line quicker?

<+B2-manicmonoliths> they are entitled to a spoiler-free experience online, but the danger is there for people to post spoilers 
and then their 'journey' is ruined
<+B1-TheAma1> In our day and age, information is power. Unfortunately let's face the facts: spoilers are used and abused, for th
e detriment of the many. 
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left.
<+B1-TheAma1>  Why did TLE have so much success when people could have just logged on lostpedia 3 months after and get the final
 results? 
<+B2-manicmonoliths> if people are afraid of being spoiled they stay offline, then the online community becomes weaker and less 
enjoyable as a result
<+B1-TheAma1> and that means 2 people on the chatroom
<+B1-TheAma1> 1 being a bot
<+B2-manicmonoliths> eliminating spoilers would create a risk free environment online 
<@Lemonade> Thank you team B.
<@Lemonade> Team A, you have 2 minutes to counter.
<@Lemonade> Your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> On LP there was a compromise -- registration was closed. In the chat, only trusted users were allowed to speak. Whil
e this may have been harmful for some new people, we did it for "the greater good" (we thought about it, as you guys have been s
aying)
<+A1-danhm> Eliminating spoilers is not feasible, and an insult to my freedoms and rights
<+A1-danhm> As you are entitled to be spoiler free, I am also entitled to be spoiled
<+A1-danhm> We have no choice but to compromise
<+A1-danhm> I can speak on behalf of the chat -- only a few users chose not to use it during spoilcon
<+A1-danhm> They had the choice to use it, of course
<@Lemonade> Thank you team B.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, please go ahead.
<+DocArzt> Refer to the YouTube video.  But seriously, last year I would have said yes, but we all know what to expect now.  The
 first LF108 incident was far more incendiary, and creates a slew of new responsibilities for webmasters.  
<+DocArzt>  Yet, spoilers are probably a big part of the foundation of the Lost scene on the internet.  I’ve benefitted from the
m.  In the sense of just getting warm bodies on the boards, I’d dare say we all have… whether we read them or not.
<+DocArzt> over and out.
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.
<@Lemonade> We will limit the team interaction phase for this issue to 3 minutes.
<@Lemonade> Teams A and B, your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now.
<+A1-danhm> DocArzt brings up and awesome point.
<+B1-TheAma1> The "First Amendment to the US Constitution" is not at ALL applicable here. And "only a few users chose not to use
 [the chat] during spoilcon" is a dreamy thought at best. Spoilers will (nowadays) probably always exist, but the fact remains, 
again, that the majority of FANS do not want spoilers, but unfortunately can't seem to end up 100% spoiler-free, even when they 
close the firefox window! 
<+A1-danhm> Spoilers bring in fans
<+B2-manicmonoliths> danhm, you keep talking about 'freedom', while freedom is good (we've all seen Braveheart) freedom comes at
 a price, you can't have complete freedom, you can't just do whatever you want! That leads to anarchy, we need boundaries and ru
les otherwise people would just go crazy! 
<+A1-danhm> Is the freedom to read now in question?
<+B1-TheAma1> Spoilers bring OUT fans. If someone spoiled things in here, a KB would be the result.
<+A1-danhm> Your nick is "manic", not "stalin"
<+B1-TheAma1> wow, extremes people, let's not use those.
<+DocArzt> Right now, regardless of the moral debate over spoilers, the webmasters are responsible if a random "dumbledore is de
ad" driveby takes place.  That is the perception of most of the community, particularly the anti-spoiler group... but they tend 
to overreact anyways. ;)
<+A1-danhm> I found Lostpedia looking for answers
<+A1-danhm> I assume you did too
<+B1-TheAma1> OMG YOU SPOILED HARRY POTTER, I WAS JUST READING VOLUME 3....just kidding.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok we have laws! We live in a society based on laws. I can't just go to my friend and punch him in the face
 now can I? There's a difference between facism and laws
<+B1-TheAma1> Lostpedia brings facts. Not spoilers.
<+B1-TheAma1> The spoiler section of the site was CLOSED DOWN for a reason
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left.
<+A1-danhm> It was closed down because one of the sysops is highly anti-spoilers
<+B1-TheAma1> it brought a massive amount of unwanted publicity and unwanted members
<+B1-TheAma1> that resulted in chaos, hence the lockdown
<+A1-danhm> If you look at the talk page for it, there is a huge uproar about it
<+A1-danhm> A good number of LPers hate that it was closed
<+B1-TheAma1> one out of 11, and still it was closed down? I doubt it
<+B2-manicmonoliths> exactly, the fact that spoilers are uncontrollable means we have to shut it down!
<+DocArzt> You guys still have a spoiler forum, right?
<+A1-danhm> They do.
<+A1-danhm> And a spoiler chat
<@Lemonade> Thank you guys.
<+DocArzt> I mean I can see having a historical page for spoiler 'incidents' because let's face it... some of them are pretty in
teresting. 
<+DocArzt> (and embarressing even. ;)  )
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.
<@Lemonade> 
<+DocArzt> :X

Short Break

<@Lemonade> SHORT BREAK
<@Lemonade> Oh, I'm sorry.
<@Lemonade> Please carry on
<+DocArzt> I was just joking. :D
<@Lemonade> Haha, ok.
<+DocArzt> Believe me, where I was heading... I'd rather stop. ;)
<@Lemonade> Fair enough. :)
<@Lemonade> Dear fellow Losties, thank you for your patience.
<@Lemonade> As expected, the debate has been a high-octane ride so far.
<@Lemonade> I would like to let the participants know that their arguments are being hotly debated in the public channel (#lpdeb
ate), and judging by the response, you guys are doing a terrific job!
<@Lemonade> You deserve some time to recharge your batteries.
<@Lemonade> It is great to see the audience members actively participating in the discussion.
<@Lemonade> I am sure you have plenty of questions you wish to ask both teams, so please keep sending them via PM to KittyLili, 
BauerUK, or TokyoRose1.
<@Lemonade> Team members can join #lpdebate during the break.
<@Lemonade> We'll be back in 5 minutes.

Issue Five: Release of spoilers cannot be avoided

<@Lemonade> Welcome back Losties. :-)
<@Lemonade> Let's get right to it.
<@Lemonade> We have two issues left.
<@Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously for 4 minutes only.
<@Lemonade> Issue Five:  Release of spoilers cannot be avoided.
<@Lemonade> "Hundreds upon hundreds of people are involved in the making of LOST.  It is inevitable that spoilers will be leaked
.  Deal with it."
<@Lemonade> Teams, your time starts..
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> It's true.
<+B1-TheAma1> agreed, in a sense
<+A1-danhm> Darlton haven't been able to plug their leak
<+B2-manicmonoliths> spoilers are like a contagious virus once they are leaked! 
<+B1-TheAma1> although it must be CONTROLLED
<+B1-TheAma1> Let's not forget that it's the people's right to watch the show as intended, ergo unspoiled. $
<+B2-manicmonoliths> exactly, spoilers harm the show like a disease
<+A1-danhm> While I agree that lostfanish spoilers are worse than other kinds, I wouldn't agree that censorship of any form is a
 good idea
<+B2-manicmonoliths> but then we lost the suprise of the show
<+A1-danhm> There were still surprises
<+A1-danhm> For example, the Penny/Desmond reunion
<+B2-manicmonoliths> part of the fun of watching Lost, is the OMG moments, like OMG it's a flashforward!
<+B1-TheAma1> Penny was in the danhm credits!
<+A1-danhm> Yes.
<+B1-TheAma1> damn*
<+A1-danhm> But not the reunion
<+A1-danhm> We all assumed "Desmond flash"
<+B1-TheAma1> I think someone can piece one and two
<+B1-TheAma1> well no
<+A1-danhm> We are talking POV now
<+B1-TheAma1> since we know it's an O6 centric
<+A1-danhm> Did we?
<+A1-danhm> We knew till then it had be 06
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok this is too specific, we're talking about leaking here, is it inevitable?
<+A1-danhm> And that they also do multi-centrics
<+B1-TheAma1> it is not because it's "official" that it shouldn't be considered a spoiler
<@Lemonade> 1 minute to go.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> I don't think it has to be, spoilers can and should be controlled!
<+A1-danhm> Spoilers are controlled, on LP at least
<+B1-TheAma1> possibly the leak could have come from damon's evil twin brother
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok but LP is just one site!
<+B1-TheAma1> LP is a wiki
<+B2-manicmonoliths> there are 100s of others 
<+A1-danhm> Doc, you did something similar, right?
<+B1-TheAma1> on lockdown
<+A1-danhm> Closed registration and all that?
<+A1-danhm> Even DarkUFO controls spoilers
<+B1-TheAma1> it was put in for a reason
<+B2-manicmonoliths> and sometimes LP can be spoiled too, spoilers have popped up in the main forums uncensored
<+DocArzt> One of my favorite beat-era writers William S Burroughs said "The word is now a virus."  That is the sosciety we live
 in now.  It can't be stopped.  Even if you lock down your sites.
<@Lemonade> Keep going DocArzt.
<+DocArzt> Sorry, similar to what?  I got a little off course. ;)
<@Lemonade> Ok!
<@Lemonade> We have one more related issue coming up.
<@Lemonade> It has already been touched upon by both teams.
<@Lemonade> So 4 minutes "team interaction" should suffice.

Issue Six: Spoilers are Uncontrollable

<@Lemonade> Issue Six:  Once released on fan websites, spoilers are uncontrollable.
<@Lemonade> Teams, your 4 minutes start...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> Speaking of authors, my favorite, Vonnegut, once said "We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell y
ou any different"
<+A1-danhm> This means, "take it easy"
<+B1-TheAma1> R. Kohelet also once said: "When God created the first human beings, God led them around the garden of Eden and sa
id: "Look at my works! See how beautiful they are -- how excellent! For your sake I created them all. See to it you do not spoil
 and destroy My world; for if you do, there will be no one else to repair it." 
<+B1-TheAma1> Spoilers destroy and hurt the world of Darlton and the fans'
<+A1-danhm> That is a different kind of spoil
<+B1-TheAma1> it is a metaphor
<+B2-manicmonoliths> but when it comes to Lost a lot of fans don't want to 'take it easy' they are very passionate about the sho
w, and being spoiled is a big deal for them
<+B1-TheAma1> yes exactly
<+A1-danhm> Are you saying I am not passionate about the show because I read spoilers?
<+B1-TheAma1> as we said previously: when you invest years of your life, I think it's a pretty big deal!
<+B2-manicmonoliths> once someone sees a spoiler, then it's up to them, will they keep it to themselves or will they post it som
ewhere else?
<+B2-manicmonoliths> I'm saying danhm that people are passionate about not being spoiled
<+A1-danhm> Should knives be illegal because someone might stab you?
<+B1-TheAma1> weapons should
<+B2-manicmonoliths> they should be controlled, spoilers can't be controlled
<+A1-danhm> Should the internet be illegal because you can download movies illegally?
<+B1-TheAma1> that is a WHOLE other debate
<+B2-manicmonoliths> once it's out on a webpage anyone who google's 'Lost' is at risk
<+A1-danhm> Should a car be illegal because you can run someone over?
<+A1-danhm> They are all the same basic point
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> no they are not, if a person doesn't want to be spoiled they have a right not to be and the shouldn't have 
to stay offline either
<+B1-TheAma1> people should be punished for what they do with spoilers, unfortunately they can't, therefore spoilers should suff
er the consequences since they are what drives those people crazy in the first place!
<+A1-danhm> Simply because the threat of a wrong doing exists doesn't mean all legitimate uses should be forbidden as well
<+B1-TheAma1> statistically 89% of spoiled want to spoil someone else
<+A1-danhm> The punishment is a banning from the community
<+A1-danhm> Do you have a source?
<@Lemonade> Thank you guys.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, please go ahead.
<+DocArzt> Well.  The youtube video again.
<+DocArzt> It comes down to individuals
<+DocArzt> it's all about the individuals.
<+DocArzt> And their choices.  How responsible they will be with the information.
<+DocArzt> over and out
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.

Q&A

<@Lemonade> Q&A
<@Lemonade> It is time for the teams to answer the viewer questions.
<@Lemonade> It stands to the quality of the arguments presented by both sides, that most of the questions submitted to us were a
lready covered.
<@Lemonade> We picked two of the best.
<@Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously for 5 minutes per question.
<@Lemonade> The first question was asked by polarbear.
<@Lemonade> I'll be posting it in verbatim.
<@Lemonade> "Do you think the MAJOR season finale spoilers (through their leaks, and subsequent press and controversy backlash p
ress) actually *increase* the market value of Lost for ABC? Or do you think the spoilers hurt the bottom line (money) for ABC? I
f spoilers *increase* market value, is it possible Lostfan108 is a player from ABC's marketing dept?"
<@Lemonade>  "Does the filming of fake alternate endings this season support this conjecture?"
<@Lemonade> Let's take a minute to read and understand polarbear's question.
<@Lemonade> Ok teams, 5 minutes...
<@Lemonade> Your time starts...
<+A1-danhm> I think they increase the market value, no question. We've been talking about Lost since the spoilers came out, even
 after the finale. And look -- we're talking about spoilers now, not the show's content. It is an extra aspect of Lost to discus
s!
<@Lemonade> Now.
<+B1-TheAma1> No. The filming of fake endings was to confuse sources but it (almost) didn't work as Locke was all along in the c
offin. Spoilers do NOT increase the market value of Lost. If you are reading spoilers then you're already a fan. What it can do 
however is lead you to dislike the episode BEFORE THE ACTUAL SHOWING.
<+A1-danhm> If it was to confuse sources, why did they show it on Good Morning America?
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok they may increase the market value, but not the 'viewer value', a spoiler takes away from the entertainm
ent value of the show
<+B1-TheAma1> Either you love the spoiler, and since you're already a fan you're gonna watch OR you hate the spoiler and you're 
NOT gonna watch the episode
<+DocArzt> There are shows that I began watching because I read a spoiler and it was intriguing to me.
<+A1-danhm> It increases the viewer-value
<+A1-danhm> We can discuss what would've happened if Sawyer was really in the coffin
<+A1-danhm> And etc
<+B1-TheAma1> danhm, by confuse sources, I meant spoiler sources. Showing it on GMA is fun, I was also interesting in seeing the
m. Where did I see them? YOUTUBE 
<+A1-danhm> ABC released them to GMA so we'd talk about Lost for longer, I would argue
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok viewers watching an episode knowing what was going to happen  are missing out of the suspense and drama 
that ends with a huge reveal
<+DocArzt> The purpose of showing it was likely to explain any disinformation that would have been released in the week prior...
 aherm... 
<+A1-danhm> And look -- we are
<+A1-danhm> Heh, DocArzt -- did you talk them into releasing them? :P
<+B1-TheAma1> we are indeed.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> the purpose of the alternate endings was to try and protect fans who don't want to be spoiled
<+DocArzt> lol
<+B1-TheAma1> exactly manic
<+DocArzt> I would have begged if they hadn't.
<+B1-TheAma1> after the finale, it's only fun
<+B1-TheAma1> same as bloopers
<+A1-danhm> If the purpose was to protect fans from spoilers, there would be no reason to release them after
<+B1-TheAma1> It's cool to see "who's in the coffin...not"
<+B2-manicmonoliths> yeah they are just extras
<+B1-TheAma1> what is the point of bloopers then, deleted scenes, [insert DVD bonus]
<+A1-danhm> While they are an extra scene, they increase the things we can discuss about Lost
<+B2-manicmonoliths> ok on that logic danhm what's the point of deleted scenes of any dvd extra
<+B2-manicmonoliths> exactly Ama, we think alike :)
<+A1-danhm> They add to the overall value
<+A1-danhm> Which is what PB was asking
<+B1-TheAma1> of the DVD, not GMA
<+B1-TheAma1> bloopers are NOT spoilers
<+B2-manicmonoliths> I think you misunderstand the question danhm
<+A1-danhm> Spoilers and extra scenes add to the value of Lost
<+B1-TheAma1> this is completely out of PB's question
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left.
<+B1-TheAma1> let's not go into vague territory and stay focus
<+B1-TheAma1> we are simply musing on the dvd bonus idea following your comment danhm
<+B2-manicmonoliths> the question asked if spoilers get more people into watching the show? 
<+B1-TheAma1> the answer is no
<@Lemonade> Thank you guys.
<@Lemonade> The audience feels we need more clarificiation on this subquestion -- "is lostfan108 a marketing ploy?"
<@Lemonade> I'll voice both teams for 2 minutes before moving on to the final question of the day.
<@Lemonade> Your 2 minutes start...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> I would be surprised if it was, but also not super surprised if it wasn't.
<+B1-TheAma1> No he is not. LF108 sole purpose is to ruin the show. This can be underlined by the fact that he posted the s3 fin
ale spoils on AICN WITHOUT ANY WARNING.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> no, if so then ABC treats it's employess Damon and Carlton very badly!
<+DocArzt> No absolutely not.
<+DocArzt> The information reaches who?
<+DocArzt> Lost fans.
<+B1-TheAma1> LF108 is an asshat. The end.
<+DocArzt> Haha
<+A1-danhm> Yes.
<+A1-danhm> I don't think they would spoil us so.
<+DocArzt> It would be bad marketing.  Because it really only gets out to the most hardcore of fans.
<+B2-manicmonoliths> Damon and Carlton don't want their show spoiled, so if ABC do employ Lostfan 108, that writers strike was e
ntirely justified!
<+A1-danhm> He probably isn't a writer ;p
<+A1-danhm> Or she!
<+A1-danhm> Maybe it's Carlton's mom...
<+A1-danhm> I think we are done?
<+B2-manicmonoliths> I'm saying if Damon and Carlton are treated that badly by ABC, they should quit!
<+B1-TheAma1> As Doc also said, his spoilers only led to either fans getting excited, therefore watching the finale as usual, or
 getting some fans pissed, because they hated the FF, before the episode was actually shown, leading to poor viewership
<+A1-danhm> guess not
<@Lemonade> Thank you guys.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, do you want to add anything more to that?
<+DocArzt> Well, he had a 1 in 4 chance of being right.  I've talked to people who got the episode without an ending, and people
 who got one of three.  One interesting note:  this is the first time ABC has asked people to sign NDA's for Lost episodes.
<+DocArzt> nah that's it.
<@Lemonade> Ok, thank you.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> Final question...to both teams.
<@Lemonade> This comes from BauerUK, and he asks...
<@Lemonade> One could argue that the 'spoilers' covering specific milestones but with ambigious outcomes only make the show more
 appealing, as viewers are then confident that there will be resolution. For example, "before Season 4 ends, we *will* learn who
 is in the casket". Surely this only benefits the viewers experience?
<@Lemonade> You will have 5 minutes.
<@Lemonade> And your time starts...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+B1-TheAma1> This refers again to the distinction between "teasing" and "complete spoiler", a fine line indeed. 
<+A1-danhm> Yes, I agree this benefits the fans. And this is why spoilers shouldn't be outlawed.
<+B1-TheAma1> But if you were not watching the s3 finale, what do you care who's in the coffin? You are not a fan
<+A1-danhm> What do you mean?
<+B1-TheAma1> what I mean is
<+B1-TheAma1> this question is addressed to fans of the show
<+DocArzt> Right.  What the scene needs is a good glossary when it comes to this information.  I don't consider something like t
hat a spoiler.
<+B1-TheAma1> either you won't watch lost or you will, but it certainly WON'T bring new viewers
<+A1-danhm> Some teaser-spoilers can bring in fans
<+B1-TheAma1> if you're a fan, you'll be happy to know that the finale holds answers, but I'm pretty sure that since you're a fa
n, you were gonna watch that finale anyway
<+A1-danhm> For example, "Harrison Ford will guest star as Jack's grandfather"
<+B1-TheAma1> I would tune out
<+A1-danhm> That is fake, of course
<+B2-manicmonoliths> surely a Lost viewer will watch the show anyway regardless on knowing an issue will be addressed, it defini
tely wont bring in new fans anyway!
<+B1-TheAma1> exactly
<+A1-danhm> Harrison Ford fans might tune in
<+B1-TheAma1> but what do they care about lost
<+B2-manicmonoliths> doubtful as they wont care who Jack is
<+A1-danhm> And realize what they have been missing
<+B1-TheAma1> a one-time viewer is not important 
<+B1-TheAma1> are the majority of fans from season 4 or from s1-2?
<+A1-danhm> Yes they are, Ama
<+A1-danhm> You never know which drop of water will burst the dam
<+B1-TheAma1> casual viewers could have been important to grab in the early season
<+B2-manicmonoliths> but someone who never watches Lost is not going to read spoilers about the show
<+B1-TheAma1> now they are not
<+B1-TheAma1> manic nailed it
<+A1-danhm> The main stream media covers spoilers
<+A1-danhm> It would be all over magazines and talk shows
<+B1-TheAma1> who gives a crap about who's in the coffin since I don't watch lost, therefore I won't care
<+A1-danhm> If Harrison Ford is on Leno, they would discuss him being on Lost
<+B1-TheAma1> is he in the coffin?
<+B1-TheAma1> harrold perrineau's venue was basically ruined
<+B1-TheAma1> because of comic con
<+A1-danhm> That is not the question at hand
<@Lemonade> 1 minute to go.
<+B1-TheAma1> sure they can say that they wanted us to know that ben's man was michael, but that's just BS
<+A1-danhm> We are discussing whether teasers/minor spoilers can bring in fans\
<+B1-TheAma1> it won't
<+B2-manicmonoliths> it wont bring in new fans
<+B1-TheAma1> either you're alreayd a fan and therefore will watch lost as usual (or not if you hate the spoiler)
<+B1-TheAma1> either you're not a fan and won't read the spoilers
<+A1-danhm> Shows get fans because people hear about the show
<@Lemonade> Thank you folks.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, please go ahead.
<+DocArzt> As I said.  I think we need some new terms.  Spoilers of this sort don't seem like spoilers to me.
<+DocArzt> There is a book titled "John dies at the end"
<+DocArzt> is the title a spoiler?
<+DocArzt> How do you apply the logic of teasing and enticing to that book?
<+DocArzt> over and out
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.

Closing Statements

<@Lemonade> Closing Statements
<@Lemonade> Team leaders will now present their closing statements.
<@Lemonade> Each team leader will have 3 minutes.
<@Lemonade> A1-danhm, your time starts...
<+A1-danhm> Knowing the plot doesn't make for a bad viewing experience.
<@Lemonade> Now
<+A1-danhm> The top grossing movie worldwide is Titanic
<+A1-danhm> Does anyone not know what happens in that?
<+A1-danhm> Addtiontionally, if the plot was the only enjoyable thing about Lost, why would so many people rewatch it over and o
ver?
<+A1-danhm> Dramatic irony makes things more interesting
<+A1-danhm> As seen in Shakespearean plays
<+A1-danhm> That is, the audience knowing what happens before the characters  do
<@Lemonade> 1 minute left
<+A1-danhm> If spoilers are completely forsaken, an entire aspect of Lost will be lost.
<+A1-danhm> Disallowing discussion of them is too restrictive.
<+A1-danhm> As I have said, possibility of wrong doing doesn't mean it should be forbidden
<@Lemonade> Thank you A1-danhm.
<@Lemonade> B1-TheAma1, your 3 minutes start...
<@Lemonade> Now
<+B1-TheAma1> I would like first to thank Danhm, manic, Lem, the judges and everybody for participating in this wonderful debate.
<+B1-TheAma1> And also Ikkl, MIA :(
<+B1-TheAma1> I'm a fan of Pokémon, not Digimon, therefore I don't care what happens in Digimon and won't read their spoilers. T
he same principle can be applied to Lost. Non-fans won't read spoilers. If you're a fan that do read spoilers, the only effect i
t could tangibly do to the show is turn you OFF. It won't bring in new blood.
<+B1-TheAma1> As for Titanic: it's based on HISTORY! Who cares, and it's been like what, 10 years? Lost is not History (if it is
, please give me the GPS coordinates of the Island so I can go there), and 10 years have not passed since the series finale aire
d.
<+B1-TheAma1> Spoilers are spoilers. In Lost it's the journey that counts, not the ultimate facts. In our day and age, informati
on is power. Spoiler is power. And as we all know: power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
<+B1-TheAma1> I bid you good night.
<@Lemonade> Ama, are you finished?
<+B1-TheAma1> Yes my dear friend.
<@Lemonade> Thank you.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, it's time for your closing statement. :-)
<+DocArzt> First off, who wouldn't want to see John Cameron's take on any historical disaster. :)
<+DocArzt> What I think is cool about this discussion is that at the end of the day it comes down to individual philosophy.
<+DocArzt> Choice.
<+DocArzt> The spoilers aren't going away.
<+DocArzt> It all comes down to choice. You have the info, you choose to release it.  You read it, you choose whether or not to 
pass it on.
<+DocArzt> If you want to make sure you don't see it.  You choose to stay off line.
<+DocArzt> *James Cameron... sorry Jimbo... 
<+DocArzt> (My wife is heckling me as I type)
<+DocArzt> Misidentifying historic directors aside.  I think the debate brought out the fact... in bold... that this is all abou
t personal points of view, and there is no latent 'nature' to spoilers.
<+DocArzt> Over and out.
<@Lemonade> Wonderful wrap up indeed!
<@Lemonade> Thank you DocArzt.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> That, ladies and gentlemen, concludes this week's event.
<@Lemonade> I hope you had a great time!
<@Lemonade> A poll will be opened on the lostpedia forums shortly, so please make sure you vote for your favorite team.
<@Lemonade> I want to thank both teams and the viewers for joining us this afternoon.
<@Lemonade> Thank you to our judges -- TokyoRose, KittyLili, BauerUK, and Kadaj, and to all OPs on lostpedia.
<@Lemonade> As always, a BIG thank you to all my friends on lostpedia who have been patient with the +m mode during this debate.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> A very special thank you to DocArzt for joining us today.
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, I know you have been very busy, and we at lostpedia really appreciate your involvement, and hope that you w
ill be back with us for future events.
<@Lemonade> 
<@Lemonade> The transcript of the entire debate will be available at:
<@Lemonade> http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lostpedia:Archived_Debates/Jun_08%2C_2008
<@TokyoRose1> That was one of our best debates yet. Thanks to our debaters and DocArzt for such a thought provoking event and to
 Lem for his superb hosting skills. :)
<@Lemonade> We will see you all two weeks from now, with another action packed event!
<@Lemonade> DocArzt, this just came in...
<+DocArzt> shoot... I'm still here.
<+DocArzt> :D
<@danhm> heh
<+DocArzt> An angry james cameron fan, perhaps?
<@Lemonade> If you ever want any IRC event, we want you to know you are always welcome to use our channel for your events.
<@Lemonade> Thank you all once again.
<@Lemonade> Have a great week.  This is your host Lemonade signing off. :-)
<+DocArzt> I definitely will.  It looks like the off season will be quiet.
<+DocArzt> As far as the Lost scene is concerned.

Event Winner

The winner of the Jun 08, 2008 debate: Team B (Arguing against spoilers)

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