Lostpedia:Archived Debates/July 20, 2008
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Lostpedia Debate League - Event no. 6 ------------------------------------------------ TOPIC: Flashbacks v Flashforwards - Argue which has been the greatest asset to the show HOSTED BY: Lemonade JUDGES: TokyoRose, manic-monoliths, Eko, Lemonade, LP Members DATE: Sunday 20th July 2008 TIME: 1900HRS BST(GMT+1) London VENUE: #lostpedia at irc.gamesurge.net POPULATION: Avg. 62 people ------------------------------------------------ What follows is a log of the entire event in verbatim. ------------------------------------------------
Introduction
Jul 20 14:28:35 --- Lemonade sets mode +m #lostpedia Jul 20 14:29:07 <Lemonade> THE OFFICIAL LOSTPEDIA DEBATE LEAGUE 2008 (EVENT #6) IS ABOUT TO BEGIN. Jul 20 14:29:14 <Lemonade> Hello fellow Losties. Jul 20 14:29:17 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to manic_monoliths Jul 20 14:29:22 <Lemonade> Coming to you LIVE, from #lostpedia at GameSurge, this is Event #6 of the official lostpedia debate league. Jul 20 14:29:32 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:29:33 <Lemonade> I will be your host for this event. Jul 20 14:29:42 <Lemonade> The channel will be moderated during the debate, which means only the judges, mods, and the team members will be able to speak. Jul 20 14:29:50 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:29:52 <Lemonade> Viewers can type /join #lpdebate to discuss the arguments presented by the teams as the debate progresses. Jul 20 14:29:58 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:30:05 <Lemonade> The Topic Jul 20 14:30:14 <Lemonade> "Flashbacks have been a greater asset to LOST than flashforwards." Jul 20 14:30:26 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:30:37 --> ApolloCandy (Java@cblmdm72-241-118-118.buckeyecom.net) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 14:30:37 <Lemonade> "I know you spent the four years prior to your arrival on this island in a wheelchair. And I know how you ended up in it. Tell me, John. Did it hurt?" -- Benjamin Linus (in a much anticipated Locke flashback episode.) Jul 20 14:30:59 <Lemonade> "We made a mistake. We were not supposed to leave." -- Jack flashforward. Jul 20 14:31:03 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:31:12 <Lemonade> The Players Jul 20 14:31:33 <Lemonade> Arguing in favor of flashbacks is Team A: A1-AlwaysLost01 (Winner of event 2). Jul 20 14:31:44 <Lemonade> Arguing against the motion is B1-nickb123, who makes his much anticipated debut. \o/ Jul 20 14:31:55 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:31:58 <Lemonade> The Debate Format Jul 20 14:32:01 <-- Forrest_Carver has quit (Read error: EOF from client) Jul 20 14:32:07 <Lemonade> Today’s debate will consist of the following five rounds: 1. The Lists, 2. Discussion -- arguments, 3. Discussion -- counterarguments, 4. Q&A, and 5. Closing statements. Jul 20 14:32:30 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:32:43 <Lemonade> For the convenience of our audience, I request both teams to use their team colors while presenting their arguments. [Team Flashbacks = red, Team Flashforwards = blue.] Jul 20 14:32:55 <Lemonade> Team members should note that they will be able to speak only when they are voiced (i.e. have a + next to their nicknames.) Jul 20 14:33:02 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:33:03 <Lemonade> Finally, a quick reminder to our audience: you can pose your viewer questions at any time by sending a private message to TokyoRose, either here (by double clicking on her nickname), or on the lostpedia forums. Jul 20 14:33:23 <Lemonade> Jul 20 14:33:24 <Lemonade> At this point I will be voicing team members for 2 minutes. Jul 20 14:33:38 <Lemonade> Team members, if you want any clarification about the debate format, or have any other technical questions regarding the chat, please ask them now. Jul 20 14:33:47 <Lemonade> ...you guys are already voiced... Jul 20 14:33:50 <Lemonade> :) Jul 20 14:33:59 <Lemonade> So go ahead, check that you can type in the right color, etc Jul 20 14:34:06 <A1-alwayslost01> i should be okay :) Jul 20 14:34:11 <B1-nickb123> i need a last point, so A team please go first :) Jul 20 14:34:21 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 14:34:23 <Lemonade> Perfect. Jul 20 14:34:36 <Lemonade> Looks like we are all set! Jul 20 14:34:40 <Lemonade> Team members, fingers poised over your keyboards... Jul 20 14:34:43 <Lemonade> The rest of us -- let's sit back, relax, and enjoy the event! :-) Jul 20 14:34:49 <Lemonade> Here we go...
Round One: The Lists
Jul 20 14:35:04 <Lemonade> Both team leaders will have 2 minutes to present a list of FIVE salient points in support of their argument. Jul 20 14:35:07 <Lemonade> We begin with Team A. Jul 20 14:35:23 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, your 2 minutes start... Jul 20 14:35:27 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 14:35:28 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 14:35:30 <A1-alwayslost01> ) Without the FB's we wouldn't have known about our losties pasts other than the vague references they make Jul 20 14:35:37 <-- evielilly has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 20 14:35:37 <polarbear> evielilly I quit too. Who needs money when you've got good looks! Jul 20 14:35:40 <A1-alwayslost01> wtf? nevermind Jul 20 14:36:12 <A1-alwayslost01> - We learnt early on that the island was special thanks to the Locke FB in 'Walkabout' Jul 20 14:36:53 <A1-alwayslost01> we saw many of the characters crossover paths due to the FB's which could lead to a higher importance in the mythology of the show Jul 20 14:37:21 <A1-alwayslost01> we have found out about things like Jack and Claire being half brother/sister through the FBs Jul 20 14:37:36 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 14:37:39 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 14:37:54 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123, your turn, 2 minutes. Jul 20 14:38:02 <Lemonade> And your time will start as soon as you are voiced. Jul 20 14:38:08 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 14:38:09 <Lemonade> Now.. Jul 20 14:38:37 <B1-nickb123> 1) flashbacks are often done on television, so to have use of recurring flashforwards adds a new angle Jul 20 14:39:05 <B1-nickb123> future means events on the island resonate in a special way, characters affected from their experience of the mundane return to reality Jul 20 14:39:28 <B1-nickb123> people of importance become significant in the future to a single character, whereas in the past they havent met them per se Jul 20 14:39:30 --> evielilly (~evielilly@evielilly4815.last-man-standing.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 14:39:30 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to evielilly Jul 20 14:39:53 <B1-nickb123> we're seeing development proper ourselves, we experience both present and future and what happens, not just learn what did happen in the past Jul 20 14:39:57 <B1-nickb123> finally, Jul 20 14:40:26 <B1-nickb123> off-island nostalgia, being aware of the island and then off the island equals much greater narrative development - seeing an other off-island, another survivor, etc Jul 20 14:40:28 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 14:40:34 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123
Round Two: Team Discussion
Jul 20 14:40:53 <Lemonade> ROUND TWO: DISCUSSION Jul 20 14:40:59 <Lemonade> Now that both teams have laid their cards on the table, it is time to get into the nitty gritty details. Jul 20 14:41:12 <Lemonade> In this round, both teams will elaborate on their lists, providing *specific examples* to backup their claims. Jul 20 14:41:28 <Lemonade> Teams will be voiced in their "entirety" -- one team at a time -- for a duration of 5 minutes. Jul 20 14:41:37 <Lemonade> We begin with team A. Jul 20 14:41:51 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, your 5 minutes start... Jul 20 14:41:55 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 14:41:56 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 14:42:02 <A1-alwayslost01> if we hadn't learnt things from the FBs then the episodes wouldn't have made as much sense Jul 20 14:42:18 <A1-alwayslost01> like if Locke says to Jack 'my father was a conman then pushed me out of a window' Jul 20 14:42:31 <A1-alwayslost01> we never would have gotten the full story and prospective on what actually happened Jul 20 14:42:53 <A1-alwayslost01> Throught Locke, and the later Rose, we learnt of the healing powers of the island Jul 20 14:43:20 <A1-alwayslost01> rose had cancer but the island cured her in the same way that it cured Locke's paralasis Jul 20 14:43:38 <A1-alwayslost01> through FB's we learnt that both of the characters had tried to get better Jul 20 14:43:51 <A1-alwayslost01> but nothing would work for them, until they reached the island.... Jul 20 14:44:29 <A1-alwayslost01> In Ana Lucias FB we learnt that she was actually a 'bodyguard' for Christian Shephard Jul 20 14:45:01 <A1-alwayslost01> which is helping to add to the mythology as we are starting to learn that possibley all these different people where on flight 815 Jul 20 14:45:10 <A1-alwayslost01> for more reason than just coincedence Jul 20 14:45:43 <A1-alwayslost01> again, in ana lucia's flashback we learnt the Christian had been trying to see Claire who is Jack's half-sister Jul 20 14:46:14 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 14:46:14 <A1-alwayslost01> without the use of FBs we would have never learnt about that, or if we had it would have had to be done in a really obscure way Jul 20 14:46:34 <-- ApolloCandy has quit (Signed off) Jul 20 14:46:42 <A1-alwayslost01> the FBs aloud TPTB an easier way of storytelling that didn't interupt the narrative of the show Jul 20 14:46:48 --> ac3 (Java@cblmdm72-241-118-118.buckeyecom.net) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 14:47:04 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 14:47:09 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. Jul 20 14:47:22 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123 you will now have 5 minutes to present your case. Jul 20 14:47:51 <Lemonade> Since this is your first debate, I would like to remind you that you will have a chance to present a counter argument against flashbacks in round 3. Jul 20 14:48:18 <Lemonade> Round 2 should be used to strengthen your case, and elaborate on the list you presented in round 1. Jul 20 14:48:26 <Lemonade> Your 5 minutes start... Jul 20 14:48:30 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 14:48:31 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 14:49:28 <B1-nickb123> ok i think the key strength of FFs is the use of foreshadowing Jul 20 14:49:28 <B1-nickb123> we can see things happening on the island and then see the consequences of this as opposed to seeds we never saw planted in the present time Jul 20 14:49:28 <B1-nickb123> we also get a greater insight into the mysteries when we arent on the island Jul 20 14:49:40 <-- ac3 has quit (Signed off) Jul 20 14:49:53 <B1-nickb123> for instance, to see that the survivors have to return and the importance and power of the island's jacob/charlie power Jul 20 14:50:14 <B1-nickb123> we also are bombarded with people wanting to leave the island, and the strength to FFs is we see the consequence Jul 20 14:50:32 <B1-nickb123> the mundane reality after being on such a mysterious island, and the feelings of missing out Jul 20 14:50:50 <B1-nickb123> with penny and such, off-island you can gain greater knowledge for the narrative Jul 20 14:51:17 <B1-nickb123> opportunity for answers which couldnt be obtained otherwise, such as revealing jack and claires connection after leaving the island Jul 20 14:51:52 <B1-nickb123> FFs also are accessible as they can take place NOW, in 2008, and so thus connect to real-world stuff, and tie in with things like ARGs Jul 20 14:51:56 --> ApolloCandy (Java@cblmdm72-241-118-118.buckeyecom.net) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 14:52:04 <B1-nickb123> so for the fans its a greater opportunity to connect with the show Jul 20 14:52:43 <B1-nickb123> FFs are also great as you're seeing where the people are going and ending up, and you're questioning Jul 20 14:52:46 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 14:52:51 <B1-nickb123> unanswered questions are things yet to come Jul 20 14:53:02 <B1-nickb123> the angle of prophecy is in there Jul 20 14:53:26 <B1-nickb123> much better than unanswered questions lingering, we see the future and await it to happen in the present Jul 20 14:53:37 <B1-nickb123> we see the result and can slowly witness its development Jul 20 14:53:41 <B1-nickb123> across many episode period Jul 20 14:53:44 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 14:53:49 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123. Jul 20 14:54:24 <Lemonade> It would be great to have longer discussions, but for lack of time, we move on.
Round Three: Counter Arguments
Jul 20 14:54:36 <Lemonade> Both teams will now be able to present counterarguments, and point out the loopholes in the opponent’s argument. Jul 20 14:54:46 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, you have 4 minutes. Jul 20 14:54:53 <Lemonade> Your time starts... Jul 20 14:54:57 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 14:54:58 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 14:54:59 <A1-alwayslost01> Firstly, I'd just like to point out that we haven't seen Penny in a FF, she's only been in FBs and present time Jul 20 14:56:00 <A1-alwayslost01> also, Jack and Claire being related could have easily come out in the present time on the show Jul 20 14:56:44 <A1-alwayslost01> i belive that the fans can connect with the show easy through FBs as they can see the way the characters were before this life changing expierence Jul 20 14:56:59 <A1-alwayslost01> they can also use this knowledge to relate to things that are happening in present time Jul 20 14:57:26 <A1-alwayslost01> to see why someone is reacting in the way they are, such as Sun rising up against the oppresion of Jin in the first couple of seasons Jul 20 14:58:13 <Lemonade> 1 minute left Jul 20 14:58:15 <A1-alwayslost01> to know where something is going to end is kind of like taking a bit of the mystery out of the show, knowing that Jack and Kate get off of the island at the end of S3 was a pretty big thing to learn Jul 20 14:58:45 <A1-alwayslost01> it practically took any form of 'omg could Jack die' out of the surgery he had to have done in S4 Jul 20 14:59:09 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:00:09 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. Jul 20 15:00:09 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123, your 4 minutes start... Jul 20 15:00:09 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:00:09 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:00:09 <B1-nickb123> well i think although FBs are a good way of communicating and showing past experiences, it still remains that anything in a FB can be said in the present. there are very few moments where they've actually said "i met this guy" with the exception of sawyer realising he'd met jack's dad, and this can be done much more on the show Jul 20 15:00:46 <B1-nickb123> its all well and good saying in the present and then hopping to FB to see "how they turned out like this", but with this anything can be said. its a much greater and more intelligent device to see someone progress season by season over years in our time, and then flashforward and see a result Jul 20 15:01:37 <B1-nickb123> the future is clever as yes it does guarantee that e.g. will survive but by no means says he will always live Jul 20 15:01:42 <B1-nickb123> we could see his death, like locke Jul 20 15:01:55 <B1-nickb123> and now we question "how will locke die? how will he leave?" Jul 20 15:02:11 <B1-nickb123> flashforwards are much more questioning and inquisitive Jul 20 15:02:37 <B1-nickb123> flashbacks also hop around way too much, and as the writers say, they kinda ran out of ideas very quickly Jul 20 15:02:40 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 15:02:49 --> nutelLA (~sminty13@bngr-208-111-233-30-pppoe.dsl.bngr.epix.net) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:02:49 <ChanServ> [nutelLA] <@frogs> my daughter's name happens to be nutella. Jul 20 15:02:58 <B1-nickb123> adding irrelevant backstory ideas as filler, cause e.g. kate after the main thing, you're pretty much done Jul 20 15:03:02 <B1-nickb123> but the future is endless Jul 20 15:03:12 <B1-nickb123> and much better ideas that dont conflict with canon Jul 20 15:03:15 <B1-nickb123> can be explored Jul 20 15:03:24 <B1-nickb123> as right now, a new development in the past would be shot down Jul 20 15:03:35 <B1-nickb123> ala we've never heard of that before Jul 20 15:03:39 <B1-nickb123> nikki and paulo lol Jul 20 15:03:45 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:03:49 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123.
Short Break
Jul 20 15:04:15 <Lemonade> Dear fellow Losties, thank you for your patience so far. Jul 20 15:04:38 <Lemonade> Thanks to both participants, we have had a great debate so far, which is a tribute to lostpedians, considering that we were on the brink of postponing the event altogether! Jul 20 15:05:00 <Lemonade> Hats off A1-alwayslost01 and B1-nickb123. You deserve a few minutes to recharge your batteries. Jul 20 15:05:08 <Lemonade> We will now take a very very short 10 minute break. Jul 20 15:05:17 <Lemonade> Now is your chance to post questions to the teams, so please PM them to TokyoRose during the break. Jul 20 15:05:33 <Lemonade> Remember, you can type /join #lpdebate for a live discussion. Jul 20 15:17:45 <Lemonade> We will resume in 2 minutes, folks.
Round Four: Q&A
Jul 20 15:21:14 <Lemonade> Welcome back Losties. :-) Jul 20 15:21:14 <Lemonade> Sorry for the delay, selecting 5 questions out of 20 takes time. :p Jul 20 15:21:19 <Lemonade> But we are all set now! Jul 20 15:21:22 <Lemonade> So let's get to it. Jul 20 15:21:31 <Lemonade> ROUND FOUR: Q&A Jul 20 15:21:43 <Lemonade> The first question is for team A, and was asked by manic-monoliths: Jul 20 15:21:59 <Lemonade> "FBs have become repetitive often telling us the same story and providing only a small insight into a character, discuss." Jul 20 15:22:09 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01 will have 3 minutes to answer. Jul 20 15:22:19 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123 will then be able to respond for 1 minute. Jul 20 15:22:31 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, your 3 minutes start... Jul 20 15:22:35 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:22:36 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:22:38 <A1-alwayslost01> the reason they have told us the same story is because a lot of the characters have lived their lives in the same, poor way Jul 20 15:23:13 <A1-alwayslost01> each season we have learnt new things about the majority of the main characters, and although they make seem to be becoming repatitious Jul 20 15:23:36 <A1-alwayslost01> they are actually helping us to better understand the kind of people the losties were before they arrived on the island Jul 20 15:24:09 <-- sammcpherson has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 20 15:24:20 <A1-alwayslost01> i think each time we have a FB, especially one that shows one of the characters in a new light, like emo-Claire and Chrsitian Jul 20 15:24:43 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 15:24:47 <A1-alwayslost01> it is showing the different aspects of each characters personality whilst showing that they all have flaws Jul 20 15:25:22 <A1-alwayslost01> also, because of the repatitousness of the FBs, we have seen that a lot of the losties share common flaws Jul 20 15:25:30 <A1-alwayslost01> such as Jack and Locke's lack of being able to let go Jul 20 15:25:41 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:25:44 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:25:53 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123, you have 1 minute to counter. Jul 20 15:25:57 <Lemonade> And your time starts... Jul 20 15:26:02 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:26:03 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:26:18 <B1-nickb123> well i agree with manic-monoliths (great name btw), i think the writers walked into it really by the end of season 2 that they'd covered most of their bases, and so in S3 it did feel, to me, that they were sort of on the backburner (i mentioned this many times in my blog), that they were serving as sort of secondary story, and we were just waiting for the present so we could see more of hydra island, etc. Jul 20 15:26:54 <B1-nickb123> i also think we saw a lot of character flaws well in the present, we didnt need FB. for instance, sawyer, we saw him when he first arrived as cold, he got better, and then in the long con regressed back Jul 20 15:27:10 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:27:16 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123. Jul 20 15:27:30 <Lemonade> Jul 20 15:27:31 <Lemonade> The next question is directed at team B, and was asked by one of our judges -- manic-monoliths. Jul 20 15:27:44 <Lemonade> " Some viewers believe FF's only serve to advance the plot and create nail-biting tension, but do not add much to our understanding of a character. Counter this point of view." Jul 20 15:27:54 <Lemonade> You will have 3 minutes to answer. Jul 20 15:28:02 <Lemonade> Your time starts... Jul 20 15:28:07 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:28:07 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:28:24 <B1-nickb123> i think although yes it is advancing plot, its a great angle to understanding characters who want to escape Jul 20 15:28:28 --> Sotoroth (Kadaj@Kadaj.thinks-of-the-kitties-on.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:28:28 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Sotoroth Jul 20 15:28:30 <B1-nickb123> i think jack is a perfect example Jul 20 15:28:43 <B1-nickb123> he wants to fix things and get his friends off the island and fix his life Jul 20 15:28:59 <B1-nickb123> but off the island we can see that hes failing. same with hurley, he cant go back to normal life Jul 20 15:29:02 --> sammcpherson (~sammcpher@72.243.184.114) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:29:09 <B1-nickb123> and that speaks volumes about how characters can cope Jul 20 15:29:34 <-- Kadaj has quit (Killed (*.GameSurge.net (Ghost kill on account Kadaj (requested by Sotoroth).))) Jul 20 15:29:39 <B1-nickb123> the only one who's really come out unscathed is kate, mostly due to aaron, and that is interesting as shes supposed to be the murderer to the original characters Jul 20 15:29:40 --- Sotoroth is now known as Kadaj Jul 20 15:29:48 <B1-nickb123> and yet shes the only one who has progressed in that way Jul 20 15:29:57 <B1-nickb123> sayid, a good guy, now an assassin Jul 20 15:30:06 <B1-nickb123> jack a wreck and bearded suicidal pill pusher Jul 20 15:30:09 <-- nutelLA has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) Jul 20 15:30:09 --> nutelLA (~sminty13@bngr-208-111-233-30-pppoe.dsl.bngr.epix.net) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:30:18 <-- stlgirl has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 20 15:30:19 --> stligrl-afk (~UPP@97.91.170.248) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:30:33 <B1-nickb123> i think we really are learning a lot more about their character and how they cope to change, and how they adapt to no longer being of any significance Jul 20 15:30:53 --> stlgirl (~UPP@97.91.170.248) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:30:57 <B1-nickb123> on the island, they get to be someone, someone that matters, and so we can see what we get when that is taken away from them Jul 20 15:31:11 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:31:43 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:31:43 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, you have 1 minute to counter. Jul 20 15:31:43 <Lemonade> And your time starts... Jul 20 15:31:43 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:31:43 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:31:46 <A1-alwayslost01> we could see from the FBs and present day that Jack was messed up already with his constant need to 'fix' things Jul 20 15:32:02 <-- sammcpherson has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 20 15:32:03 <A1-alwayslost01> so it didn't really need reiterating in the FFs Jul 20 15:32:37 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:32:40 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. Jul 20 15:32:54 <Lemonade> Next up, we have a general question for both teams. Jul 20 15:33:10 <Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously, and will be able to interact with each other. Jul 20 15:33:23 <Lemonade> This question was asked by one of our judges, Eko. Jul 20 15:33:45 <Lemonade> Remember that the questions are asked in verbatim, it is up to the teams to interpret them. Jul 20 15:33:52 <Lemonade> "Pick one episode's flashback or flashforward and explain how it connects to both character development and the overall mythology of the show." Jul 20 15:34:07 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01 and B1-nickb123, you have 4 minutes to discuss: Jul 20 15:34:14 <Lemonade> And your time starts... Jul 20 15:34:17 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:34:18 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:34:18 <Eko> Do not choose one of Ben's flashes, for that will be discussed later. Jul 20 15:34:31 <A1-alwayslost01> Ben's FB in TMBTC - it showed a lot of Dhama background Jul 20 15:34:33 <A1-alwayslost01> ahhh damn Jul 20 15:34:41 <B1-nickb123> ok i think the person off the top of my head to choose is sun Jul 20 15:34:49 <B1-nickb123> cause she crashed and we saw a broken woman Jul 20 15:35:04 <B1-nickb123> completely subordinate right down to buttoning up her blouse Jul 20 15:35:09 <B1-nickb123> and in FF she has blossomed Jul 20 15:35:14 <A1-alwayslost01> ana lucias FB with christian in sydney Jul 20 15:35:16 <B1-nickb123> she took on her father finally Jul 20 15:35:29 <A1-alwayslost01> he is raising up to be a pivitol character to the story and mythology Jul 20 15:35:36 <A1-alwayslost01> and to see his character ties pre-island Jul 20 15:35:40 <B1-nickb123> she's taken over paik heavy industries somewhat, and she can negotiate with charles widmore like hes nobody Jul 20 15:35:57 <B1-nickb123> ana's FB was good, but what did it add? Jul 20 15:36:06 <B1-nickb123> apart from a cool connection Jul 20 15:36:15 <B1-nickb123> other than that, nothing major of importance Jul 20 15:36:15 <A1-alwayslost01> it added a cool connection Jul 20 15:36:24 <B1-nickb123> but its minor to the characters Jul 20 15:36:31 <A1-alwayslost01> well Jack and Claire being related is pretty important really Jul 20 15:36:39 <B1-nickb123> if u stripped that layer, we dont see much Jul 20 15:36:58 <B1-nickb123> yes its big that they are indeed related, but in terms of their psyche in development, we have yet to see much exploration of that Jul 20 15:37:04 <B1-nickb123> apart from jack's reaction Jul 20 15:37:08 <B1-nickb123> A FLASHFORWARD Jul 20 15:37:12 <A1-alwayslost01> yeah but suns FF does really show much, just that shes a rich women off island Jul 20 15:37:27 <B1-nickb123> no it shows where shes been and where shes going to Jul 20 15:37:32 <B1-nickb123> now a confident businesswoman Jul 20 15:37:32 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 15:37:35 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to stlgirl Jul 20 15:37:50 <B1-nickb123> from a housewife who was then a spoilt rich girl before she married jin the working class dude Jul 20 15:38:04 <A1-alwayslost01> the best thing about learning more about christian in the aforementioned FB is that it shows us right into the core of him Jul 20 15:38:09 <B1-nickb123> in terms of character development i think FF are much better Jul 20 15:38:17 <B1-nickb123> showing the culmination of experience on-island Jul 20 15:38:25 <A1-alwayslost01> learning some key fundamentals about someone important to story and mythology Jul 20 15:38:29 <B1-nickb123> christian i feel has a different core Jul 20 15:38:34 <B1-nickb123> hence jacob appearance of him Jul 20 15:38:40 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:38:46 <Lemonade> Thank you guys. Jul 20 15:38:57 <-- Agnes has quit (Signed off) Jul 20 15:39:04 <Lemonade> We continue with a team A specific question. Jul 20 15:39:11 <Lemonade> This was asked by our judge, manic_monoliths: Jul 20 15:39:20 <Lemonade> "FFs have injected new life into the 'Lost formula' providing a shocking twist to a season finale, now that we've moved into the future is there still a place for FBs on Lost?" Jul 20 15:39:31 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, your 3 minutes start... Jul 20 15:39:35 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:39:36 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:40:01 <A1-alwayslost01> yes because we still have some important things to learn from some of the characters Jul 20 15:40:02 --> Mikhail|Cylon (~dramaquee@91-67-58-59-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:40:24 <A1-alwayslost01> they will always have a place in the show, they are there to help us see what each character was and what they are becoming Jul 20 15:40:57 <A1-alwayslost01> without them, we wouldn't know things about Dharma for a start! Jul 20 15:41:04 <A1-alwayslost01> one of the biggest mysterys of the show Jul 20 15:41:18 <A1-alwayslost01> and something i personally find one of the more intresting aspects of Lost Jul 20 15:41:34 <A1-alwayslost01> then we have Danielles FB to come Jul 20 15:41:35 <A1-alwayslost01> about her team Jul 20 15:42:05 <A1-alwayslost01> 'the sickness' Jul 20 15:42:15 <A1-alwayslost01> and maybe, if we're lucky, we'll learn through a FB about the origins of Smokey depending on what it actually is and who created it Jul 20 15:42:16 <Lemonade> 30 seconds to go Jul 20 15:42:37 <A1-alwayslost01> Locke and Alpert clearly have a connection dating back to preisland Jul 20 15:42:43 <A1-alwayslost01> theres plenty more we could see from them Jul 20 15:42:47 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:42:51 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. Jul 20 15:43:02 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123, you have 1 minute to chime in. Jul 20 15:43:08 <Lemonade> And your time starts... Jul 20 15:43:11 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:43:12 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:43:27 <B1-nickb123> i do think we're down to the wire on FBs. the most talked about FB in Season 3 was ben's one simply because of its salience. the only FBs we care about now are rousseau or the freightees. we've lost care about any main characters' FB, and its partly this that i think daniel and charlotte are there. they're trying to inject new people for FB fodder, but we simply dont need or particularly care about a jack or jin FB anymore Jul 20 15:43:46 <B1-nickb123> now in the flashforward - we have a better chance of learning, for example, what the island actually is Jul 20 15:44:14 <B1-nickb123> concerning the point i made earlier, the people who seem to "know about the island" are people like penny, and so we need more off-island stuff in FF to shift that Jul 20 15:44:20 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:44:31 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123. Jul 20 15:44:42 <Lemonade> Once again, I feel really bad cutting you guys off in the middle of a thought. Jul 20 15:45:03 <Lemonade> The next question is for B1-nickb123, asked by ApolloCandy: Jul 20 15:45:18 <Lemonade> Once again...posted in verbatim. Jul 20 15:45:23 <Lemonade> "Imagine the writers skipped forwards 5 years, and all the FF's became FB's. Now explain why you think that would spoil our viewing pleasure." Jul 20 15:45:36 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123, your 3 minutes start... Jul 20 15:45:40 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:45:41 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:46:02 <B1-nickb123> well i dont think it would, i think it would really again be a change to a dwindling formula that is FBs Jul 20 15:46:40 <B1-nickb123> i think shifting the present would certainly shake things up, and considering what happened after the island moved is of importance, perhaps to see people trying to get back to the island would be interesting Jul 20 15:46:52 <B1-nickb123> particularly if then u go the whole hog and have FFs from that present! Jul 20 15:47:08 <B1-nickb123> where they are back on the island, and so then we're questioning "how did they get back" etc Jul 20 15:47:16 <B1-nickb123> it would be great to see ben back with a vengance Jul 20 15:47:25 <B1-nickb123> and jack, and kate reuniting with sawyer Jul 20 15:47:54 <B1-nickb123> with timeframe constraints, FFs give us answers and the development we need no matter where u place and say "that is present" Jul 20 15:48:09 <B1-nickb123> their use stretches for the forseeable future as long as the island is around Jul 20 15:48:57 <B1-nickb123> i do think we should have a whole picture, so a FF 5 years to present would leave a gap only a FB could fill, but i still think FFs have the decider Jul 20 15:49:08 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:49:11 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123. Jul 20 15:49:20 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, you have a minute to present your case. Jul 20 15:49:28 <Lemonade> Your time starts... Jul 20 15:49:32 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:49:33 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 15:50:45 <A1-alwayslost01> to have FBs tell the past from a 5 year future would make it more enjoyable to me Jul 20 15:51:08 <A1-alwayslost01> we'd get to see whats going on in the 'present' whilst catching up on everything that has happened in the last 5 years Jul 20 15:51:14 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 15:51:27 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. Jul 20 15:51:41 <Lemonade> Next up, we have a general question for both teams. Jul 20 15:51:51 <Lemonade> This question was asked by our judge Eko, and he wants to know: Jul 20 15:51:58 <Lemonade> " Ben has had two centrics episodes -- The Man Behind the Curtain (flashback) and The Shape of Things to Come (flashforward). Both develop his character quite a bit, as TMBTC allows us to see the pre-island leader Ben, and TSOTTC lets us see how his character reacts to being off-island. Which episode flash is better in developing his character and expanding the show's mythology?" Jul 20 15:53:08 <Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously for 4 minutes. Jul 20 15:53:08 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01 and B1-nickb123, your time starts... Jul 20 15:53:08 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:53:08 <Lemonade> Now. Jul 20 15:53:08 <B1-nickb123> well i think u have to separate character and expanding the show's mythology. i would agree that with those particular examples, the FB won with mythology Jul 20 15:53:08 <A1-alwayslost01> clearly for expanding the mythology it's the FB in TMBTC, we saw Ben varying in age between what looked about 10 and up to about late 20's early 30's Jul 20 15:53:12 <B1-nickb123> but that was simply the requirement - we knew the format of FB at that point, and we just needed a dharma one by necessity Jul 20 15:53:14 <A1-alwayslost01> and we saw how he reacted to the way Dharma taught/brought up the kids Jul 20 15:53:38 <B1-nickb123> in terms of the argument of FB v FF, character development wise to see ben stripped of his leadership power i feel was of greater importance Jul 20 15:53:42 <A1-alwayslost01> it showed us a key event in Lost mythology - the purge Jul 20 15:54:10 <A1-alwayslost01> Ben pre-power was more intresting though, we saw how he made his rise to claim leadership Jul 20 15:54:12 <B1-nickb123> to see him no longer the man in charge, in present reacting and shooting locke, clawing at power, and then off-island, reacting and going up against widmore assassin style with sayid Jul 20 15:54:22 <B1-nickb123> the FF gave us much more about the broken ben Jul 20 15:54:35 <B1-nickb123> i think ben pre-power was predictable Jul 20 15:54:38 <B1-nickb123> and we didnt see much Jul 20 15:54:42 <B1-nickb123> just him as a kid Jul 20 15:54:48 <B1-nickb123> and then killing his dad Jul 20 15:54:57 <B1-nickb123> other than daddy issues i saw no rise of the dictator Jul 20 15:54:59 <A1-alwayslost01> the purge was a massive development point though that really was important to the whole mythology of what the hostiles/others were Jul 20 15:55:07 --> Smiley (~masteryod@5ac7670c.bb.sky.com) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:55:08 <A1-alwayslost01> and how they became the central power of Dharma Jul 20 15:55:13 <-- AquaFox has quit (Ping timeout) Jul 20 15:55:18 <A1-alwayslost01> over* Jul 20 15:55:31 <B1-nickb123> yes the purge needed to be shown of course, as we already established FBs, but that doesnt change that FFs are greater importance Jul 20 15:55:34 <B1-nickb123> to characters Jul 20 15:55:40 <B1-nickb123> and indeed in other examples mythology Jul 20 15:55:46 <A1-alwayslost01> but the question was about mythology? Jul 20 15:55:52 <B1-nickb123> and character Jul 20 15:55:54 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 15:55:58 <A1-alwayslost01> sorry, i read it wrong Jul 20 15:55:59 <B1-nickb123> and as i stated they are different Jul 20 15:56:04 <B1-nickb123> and character is definitely FF Jul 20 15:56:14 <A1-alwayslost01> yes, very different, but seeing Ben as he grew up Jul 20 15:56:21 <A1-alwayslost01> and became prepared to murder his own dad Jul 20 15:56:25 <B1-nickb123> mythology in this instance i would go with FB simply because the FF example didnt go down the mythological route Jul 20 15:56:25 <A1-alwayslost01> to get his leadership Jul 20 15:56:29 <B1-nickb123> it went down the character one Jul 20 15:56:39 <B1-nickb123> but seeing that leadership gone Jul 20 15:56:43 <B1-nickb123> was more interesting Jul 20 15:56:46 <B1-nickb123> than a 30 yr jump Jul 20 15:56:48 <B1-nickb123> in age Jul 20 15:56:52 <B1-nickb123> from kid to killer Jul 20 15:56:57 <B1-nickb123> there was no real development Jul 20 15:57:09 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:57:14 <Lemonade> Thank you folks. Jul 20 15:57:21 <-- Sawyer has quit (Signed off) Jul 20 15:57:22 <Lemonade> And that brings us to the final question of the day. Jul 20 15:57:43 <Lemonade> It is a general question open to open teams. Jul 20 15:57:49 <Lemonade> ..asked by Eko. Jul 20 15:57:53 <Eko> :) Jul 20 15:58:04 <Lemonade> "Ji Yeon was a unique episode in that it combined both elements of story-telling. Some fans loved the “twist,” others felt it was a cheap trick to create a “wow” moment where none existed in the actual story. Which element of Ji Yeon -- Jin's flashback or Sun's flashforward -- was most important in developing the episode?" Jul 20 15:58:23 --> Sawyer (~saws@222.127.183.247) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:58:25 --> amama2six (628d10d8@67.207.141.120) has joined #lostpedia Jul 20 15:58:33 <Lemonade> You have 4 minutes. Jul 20 15:58:42 <Lemonade> Last question, but very important! Jul 20 15:58:47 <Lemonade> So...play your cards carefully. Jul 20 15:58:50 <Lemonade> Here we go... Jul 20 15:58:54 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 15:58:56 <B1-nickb123> well i think clearly the FF to show that jin was actually dead! Jul 20 15:59:07 <B1-nickb123> it was a great idea using both at once Jul 20 15:59:09 <A1-alwayslost01> we don't know that Jin is dead though Jul 20 15:59:10 <B1-nickb123> the juxtaposition Jul 20 15:59:14 <B1-nickb123> exactly Jul 20 15:59:16 <B1-nickb123> part of the fun Jul 20 15:59:24 <B1-nickb123> we see a grave - does that mean a real death? Jul 20 15:59:34 <B1-nickb123> and in the present this was toyed with, even now in the boat Jul 20 15:59:39 <B1-nickb123> on* Jul 20 15:59:50 <B1-nickb123> the FB was good but again there was no development Jul 20 15:59:58 <B1-nickb123> just a juxtaposition to go with the FF Jul 20 16:00:04 <A1-alwayslost01> there wasn't really development in either of them Jul 20 16:00:06 <B1-nickb123> the development for that episode came with the FF Jul 20 16:00:08 --- KittyLili|TOUK is now known as KittyLili Jul 20 16:00:13 <B1-nickb123> the death, the birth Jul 20 16:00:19 <B1-nickb123> all in the FF Jul 20 16:00:22 <B1-nickb123> we learn this Jul 20 16:00:25 --- Bauer-OFFICE is now known as BauerUK Jul 20 16:00:34 <B1-nickb123> the FB was simply a secondary accompanyment Jul 20 16:01:00 <A1-alwayslost01> i agree to be fair, the FB was just for a 'wtf' moment rather than anything to actually help the story or mythology Jul 20 16:01:01 <B1-nickb123> the question is about which was more important to development, and clearly the answer is FF Jul 20 16:01:23 <B1-nickb123> the two certainly worked well together Jul 20 16:01:34 <B1-nickb123> but taking things forward, can only be done in flashforward Jul 20 16:01:45 <A1-alwayslost01> for that episode, i agree Jul 20 16:02:06 <A1-alwayslost01> we just saw Jin in his usual angry ways pre-island Jul 20 16:02:09 <A1-alwayslost01> in the FB Jul 20 16:02:15 <B1-nickb123> for the show u should agree! Jul 20 16:02:27 <Lemonade> 30 seconds left. Jul 20 16:02:36 <A1-alwayslost01> if i agreed for the show i doubt there'd be much debate Jul 20 16:02:40 <B1-nickb123> the FB was even pre-against paik jin Jul 20 16:03:45 <B1-nickb123> lol Jul 20 16:03:45 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 B1-nickb123 Jul 20 16:03:45 <Lemonade> Thank you very much guys. Jul 20 16:03:45 <Lemonade> It has been a pleasure following your arguments.
Round Five: Closing Statements
Jul 20 16:03:46 <Lemonade> But now is your last chance to nail it. Jul 20 16:04:09 <Lemonade> "Final impressions are as important as first ones." -- Albert Einstein. Jul 20 16:04:25 <Lemonade> (That was a joke.) Jul 20 16:04:32 * TokyoRose laughs Jul 20 16:04:34 <Lemonade> Team leaders will now present their closing statements. Jul 20 16:04:36 <Lemonade> :p Jul 20 16:04:42 <Lemonade> Each team leader has 3 minutes. Jul 20 16:05:02 <Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, your time starts... Jul 20 16:05:06 --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 16:05:07 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 16:05:16 <A1-alwayslost01> I think that if you take into account how much we've learnt about the characters and the mythology of the show Jul 20 16:05:32 <A1-alwayslost01> the FBs have clearly been the biggest asset to the show Jul 20 16:05:46 <A1-alwayslost01> we've seen out losties go from being nothing in their lives Jul 20 16:05:52 <A1-alwayslost01> to finding who they truley are on the island Jul 20 16:06:21 <A1-alwayslost01> the mythology in the FBs has shown us things about the island, the stuff that we're itching to know about Jul 20 16:06:33 <A1-alwayslost01> that just can't be shown (in any logical way) in a FF Jul 20 16:07:02 <A1-alwayslost01> without the FBs, or having the FBs less than the FFs, we wouldn't know the things we know about the characters Jul 20 16:07:15 <A1-alwayslost01> character development is one of the key things about Lost Jul 20 16:07:16 <Lemonade> 1 minute left. Jul 20 16:07:30 <A1-alwayslost01> and none of that would be possible if they never had FBs in the show Jul 20 16:07:52 <A1-alwayslost01> the FFs have served their purpose to rush the story forward in the direction the writers chose Jul 20 16:08:15 <A1-alwayslost01> but the FBs will always be the things we remember for showing us and giving us the majority of the answers that we all watch Lost for Jul 20 16:08:21 --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-alwayslost01 Jul 20 16:08:26 <Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. Jul 20 16:08:40 <Lemonade> B1-nickb123, it's your turn. Jul 20 16:08:47 <Lemonade> 3 minutes. Jul 20 16:08:51 <Lemonade> Time starts... Jul 20 16:08:54 --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-nickb123 Jul 20 16:08:55 <Lemonade> Now Jul 20 16:09:45 <B1-nickb123> FBs led in, yes, but FFs are what we need Jul 20 16:10:23 <B1-nickb123> id question whether FBs give us the majority of Lost mysteries. i think they give us insight into character past, but with the dharma exception rarely provide much answers unless they're on-island Jul 20 16:10:41 <B1-nickb123> flashforward however, give off-island answers and could easily work on-island as well Jul 20 16:11:03 <B1-nickb123> in the future, answers from the past can be uncovered easily Jul 20 16:11:15 <B1-nickb123> can learn more about island history away from it in future Jul 20 16:11:28 <Lemonade> 1 minute left Jul 20 16:11:35 <B1-nickb123> and u can bring it all back to the present in a way that predicts and we see development as it happens Jul 20 16:11:45 <B1-nickb123> rather than hopping back to the development at a past moment Jul 20 16:12:00 <B1-nickb123> its meatier, seeing how one progresses across 4 seasons and its result Jul 20 16:12:10 <B1-nickb123> not 20 mins reto and back to the end product Jul 20 16:12:11 --- fredcar is now known as fredcar|photoshop Jul 20 16:12:14 <B1-nickb123> retro* Jul 20 16:12:22 --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-nickb123 Jul 20 16:12:28 <Lemonade> Thank you B1-nickb123 Jul 20 16:12:39 <Lemonade> Jul 20 16:12:41 <Lemonade> That, ladies and gentlemen, concludes this week's event. Jul 20 16:12:45 <Lemonade> I hope you had a great time! Jul 20 16:12:50 <Lemonade> A poll will be opened on the lostpedia forums shortly, so please make sure you vote for your favorite team. Jul 20 16:12:57 <Lemonade> I want to thank both teams and the viewers for joining us this afternoon. Jul 20 16:13:01 <Lemonade> Thank you to our judges -- TokyoRose, Eko, and manic-monoliths, and to all OPs on lostpedia. Jul 20 16:13:06 <Lemonade> As always, a BIG thank you to all my friends on lostpedia who have been patient with the +m mode during this debate. Jul 20 16:13:14 <Lemonade> We will see you all two weeks from now, with another action packed event! Jul 20 16:14:06 <Lemonade> Have a great week. This is your host Lemonade signing off. :-)
Event Winner
The winner of the July 20, 2008 debate: Team B (Arguing in favor of flashforwards)
