Lostpedia:Archived Debates/August 3, 2008
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Lostpedia Debate League - Event no. 7 ------------------------------------------------ TOPIC: Michael's Redemption HOSTED BY: Lemonade JUDGES: TokyoRose, nickb123, alwayslost01 Lemonade, LP Members DATE: Sunday 3rd August, 2008 TIME: 1900HRS BST(GMT+1) London VENUE: #lostpedia at irc.gamesurge.net POPULATION: Avg. 63 people ------------------------------------------------ What follows is a log of the entire event in verbatim. ------------------------------------------------
Introduction
<Lemonade> THE OFFICIAL LOSTPEDIA DEBATE LEAGUE 2008 (EVENT #7) IS ABOUT TO BEGIN. <Lemonade> Hello fellow Losties. <Lemonade> Coming to you LIVE, from #lostpedia at GameSurge, this is Event #7 of the official lostpedia debate league. <Lemonade> I will be your host this afternoon/evening. <Lemonade> The channel will be moderated during the debate, which means only the judges, mods, and the team members will be able to speak. <Lemonade> Viewers can type /join #lp-debate to discuss the arguments presented by the teams as the debate progresses. <Lemonade> <Lemonade> The Topic <Lemonade> "If we are not going to live together, we are going to die alone." -- Jack Shephard, Spinal Surgeon. <Lemonade> <Lemonade> "A leader can't lead until he knows where he's going." -- John Locke, Boxman. <Lemonade> <Lemonade> "Waaaaaaaahahhahhaaalllttt." -- Michael Dawson, former aspiring artist, construction worker. <Lemonade> <Lemonade> Michael redeemed himself. --- danhm removes channel operator status from TheSecuritySystem <Lemonade> Like most well written characters, Michael tends to polarize fans. <Lemonade> Michael has sinned, but were his circumstances so dire that his actions can be condoned? <Lemonade> Did he do enough damage control by sacrificing his life to save his friends? <Lemonade> These and other interesting questions coming up... <Lemonade> <Lemonade> The Players <Lemonade> We present to you some of the very best debaters from the lostpedia pool. <Lemonade> Arguing in favor of the motion is Team A: A1-TMTTI (winner of event 5) and A2-Sawyers_Stash (making her debut.) <Lemonade> Arguing against is B1-Smiley (winner of event 3.) <Lemonade> <Lemonade> The Debate Format <Lemonade> Like always, today�s debate will consist of the following five rounds: 1. The Lists, 2. Discussion -- arguments, 3. Discussion -- counterarguments, 4. Q&A, and 5. Closing statements. <Lemonade> For the convenience of our audience, I request both teams to use their team colors while presenting their arguments. [Team Redeemed = red, Team Not Redeemed = blue.] <Lemonade> <Lemonade> Team members should note that they will be able to speak only when they are voiced (i.e. have a + next to their nicknames.) <Lemonade> <Lemonade> Finally, a quick reminder to our audience: you can pose your viewer questions at any time by sending a private message to TokyoRose, either here (by double clicking on her nickname), or on the lostpedia forums. --> stlgirl (~UPP@97-91-170-248.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) has joined #lostpedia --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to stlgirl <ChanServ> [stlgirl] <@danhm> Bauer is in me! <@danhm> deep <Lemonade> At this point I will be voicing team members for 2 minutes. <Lemonade> Team members, if you want any clarification about the debate format, or have any other technical questions regarding the chat, please ask them now. This is also a good time to test if your colors work. --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Everyone okay? <B1-Smiley> no <A1-TMTTI> What's up, Smiley? <B1-Smiley> The edits to the Q+A aren't happening because of only 2vs1, yeah? <B1-Smiley> Just checking that that was scrapped <Lemonade> Yeah, it will run as usual. --> Blyss (flick@Anais.glined.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia <B1-Smiley> ok, thanks. I'm done :) --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Perfect. Looks like we are all set! <Lemonade> Team members, fingers poised over your keyboards... <Lemonade> The rest of us -- let's sit back, relax, and enjoy the event! :-) <Lemonade> Here we go... <Lemonade>
Round One: The Lists
<Lemonade> Both team leaders will have 2 minutes to present a list of FIVE salient points in support of their argument. <Lemonade> We begin with Team A. <Lemonade> A1-TMTTI, your 2 minutes start... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> 1. Michael redeemed himself because he was able to put aside his selfish purposes for the sake of others. <A1-TMTTI> 2. His reason for killing Ana Lucia and Libby was out of desperation, because he wanted to save Walt like any father would want to do. That done, he was now free to help others. <A1-TMTTI> 3. Mr. Friendly told him that he would be free to die if he had served his purpose on the island. <A1-TMTTI> 4. Christian Shephard gave him his blessing. "You can go now, Michael." --> Pseu (~chatzilla@ip68-9-161-218.ri.ri.cox.net) has joined #lostpedia --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI <Lemonade> Thank you A1-TMTTI. <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, your 2 minutes start... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <B1-Smiley> Welcome to the Lostpedia Debate league, I am Mr Balloon and this is the orientation film of why Michael was not redeemed for his murders of Miss Ana Lucia Cortez and Ms Libby [Mystery Surname]. <B1-Smiley> In a moment, you will be given a simple list of our main points, but first, a little history. <B1-Smiley> The television series Lost was first aired 2004, and is the brainchild Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, Following in the footsteps of visionaries such as J. J. Abrams imagined an Island-based where fans and free-thinkers from around the globe could pursue research into the show. We must than ABC, whose financial backing made their dream of a thought-provoking, mythological drama, a reality. <B1-Smiley> *Static* <B1-Smiley> Not long after discussions began, however, there was an incident. Research into the programme in specially designed internet forums, where the most intelligent and passionate fans could discuss theories, soon failed to agree over the issues of Michael Dawson, his murders, and his attempts for redemption. <B1-Smiley> Therefore, I am here today, to express the view that he was not redeemed for his actions, due to the following five reasons: <B1-Smiley> 1. Michael failed to stop the lethal Mercenary Team from reaching the Island. <B1-Smiley> 2. Walt was not in mortal danger, nor was he happy after being rescued. <B1-Smiley> 3. Michael was manipulated into trying to save the Losties <B1-Smiley> 4. Michael�s sacrifice came too late <B1-Smiley> 5. Michael did not reform from murder after killing Ana and Libby <B1-Smiley> Namaste --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you B1-Smiley
Round Two: Team Discussion
<Lemonade> Now that both teams have laid their cards on the table, it is time to get into the nitty gritty details. <Lemonade> In this round, both teams will elaborate on their lists, providing specific examples to backup their claims. <Lemonade> <Lemonade> Team members should note that this is not the time to refute the opponent's claims; you will get a chance to do so in the next round. <Lemonade> Teams will be voiced in their entirety -- one team at a time -- for a duration of 5 minutes. <Lemonade> We begin with team A. <Lemonade> Team A your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now. <A1-TMTTI> Michael's actions in the earlier seasons of the show can be said to have been directed solely for the purpose of his son, getting his son off the island, protecting him, etc. <A1-TMTTI> If you ask a Lost fan what they think of Michael, they will most likely say something to the effect of "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLT!" <A1-TMTTI> So it is obvious this character's motivation was his son and his son alone. <A1-TMTTI> This is the motivation that also leads to his killing of Libby and Ana Lucia at the end of season 2, an act that was out of desperation and paranoia that if he would not do this, he would fail as a father. <A1-TMTTI> Michael doesn't have a good history being a good father. We have seen his back story in which he has been denied access to his son after his ex-wife takes him to Australia. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I beleive he could not have been allowed to die if he had not completed his work of making things right. Characters on Lost die when they have been redeemed and when Christian told Michael he could leave, could die he was letting him know he had paid the price for what he had done <A1-TMTTI> Mr. Friendly, a character whose demise we saw last season, came back to the show to serve the storyline that Michael's story was not through yet. <A1-TMTTI> This means that there is more opportunity for Michael as a character to prove that he is more than just "WAAAAAAALLLLT" <-- stlgirl has quit (Quit: .��UPP��.) <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Which comes back to Mr friendly telling him before hand that his work wasn't done and that he had things to do before he could leave the earth.. both his visit with Mr friendly and Christian point to his redemtion <A1-TMTTI> The fact that Christian Shephard, who we can probably deduce is Jacob's "voice", gave Michael his blessing before the freighter blew up, leading us to determine that Michael had served his purpose <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <A1-TMTTI> What purpose could this be? Redemption for the murder of ana Lucia and Libby? Or simply serving whatever needs the island required of him? --> stlgirl (~UPP@97-91-170-248.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) has joined #lostpedia --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to stlgirl <ChanServ> [stlgirl] <@danhm> Bauer is in me! <@danhm> deep <A1-TMTTI> Whichever it is, Michael has proven himself to be one of the most layered characters on the show. <A1-TMTTI> Towards the end, we are relieved to see that there is more to him than what we've seen in previous seasons and that he is capable of selflessness. --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you team A. <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, you have 5 minutes to elaborate on your list. <Lemonade> ...and your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now. <B1-Smiley> 1. Michael failed to stop the lethal Mercenary Team from reaching the Island: <B1-Smiley> 1. Keamy and his men killed Karl, Danielle, Alex and most importantly, three redshirts! They posed a serious threat on the Island, yet, Michael did not stop them. His "redemption" had limited success. <B1-Smiley> Keamy and his men were obviously the people who weren�t meant to reach the Island, according to both Ben�s plan and what we have seen, however, they still did. The operation to save the Losties failed. Michael played only a small role � it was, instead, the great hero Benjamin Linus, who prevented Keamy and his men from purging the survivors. <B1-Smiley> However, the female fanbase may not see this as a flaw, due to the screentime Mr. Keamy received. <B1-Smiley> 2. Walt was not in mortal danger, nor was he happy after being rescued: <B1-Smiley> The poor little fella come off badly from Michael�s actions. He wasn�t in any immediate danger from being with the Others, he wasn�t being held at a gunpoint, so killing Ana-Lucia and Libby may have been a bit, well, overkill? The event to save Walt also destroyed his relationship with his father, and tortured the boy, who now no longer has a respectable mother and father. <B1-Smiley> The Others were trying to make the most of Walt's potentially dangerous powers, and possibly train him to control them safely. <B1-Smiley> Once rescued, Michael made a huge mistake in telling Walt of what he did <B1-Smiley> destroying their relationship, and leaving Walt no better off than had he not murdered Ana and Libby <B1-Smiley> 3. Michael was manipulated into trying to save the Losties: <B1-Smiley> He would not have tried to redeem himself if it were not for the Others and the Island preventing him from dying. Michael did not truly try to make amends, but he was made to do that. It is important to note that he was suicidal in Meet Kevin Johnson, a clear sign that he never had any intention to help the Losties - he would rather run from what he did that come to terms with it, not try and make up for it. The Others caused Michael to boa <B1-Smiley> 4. Michael�s sacrifice came too late: <B1-Smiley> Physically, Michael�s presence in Season Four only saved Desmond�s life, which does not �cancel out� the two lives he had already taken, and the damage he did to his son by telling him of his murders. Michael sacrificed his own life when the gas ran out � that was pointless, he couldn�t do anything to the bomb to stop it detonating. <B1-Smiley> There are also ways in which Desmond could have survived without Michael - the zodiac could have started to ferry people back to the Island, and others could have jumped overboard before detonation. Michael�s knowledge of freezing the battery could also have been suggested by others. <B1-Smiley> 5. Michael did not reform from murder after killing Ana and Libby: <Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <B1-Smiley> Even Ben seemed surprised by this one. It�s evident that Michael did not reform as a person after he murdered Ana-Lucia and Libby. He was prepared to blow up the freighter, which isn�t much of a redemption in my book. His self-sacrifice doesn�t mean all that much either, after his suicide attempt earlier. <B1-Smiley> He was still a murderer when he boarded that freighter, he was not a better person <B1-Smiley> Redemption, surely, must include reform? <B1-Smiley> Michael's guilt directed him towards more death <B1-Smiley> Thank you --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Very well organized arguments. --> Wazzipi (~wallylyyy@78-21-59-175.access.telenet.be) has joined #lostpedia <Lemonade> I would not like to interfere with the debating styles, but it will be great if we avoid copy-pastes. <Lemonade> The problem being it gets too wordy, and hard to follow on occasion.
Round Three: Counter Arguments
<Lemonade> It is now time to point out loopholes in the opponent's argument, set up straw men if necessary, and weaken their claims. <Lemonade> Teams A, you have 5 minutes. <Lemonade> ...and your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> 1. Michael's "mission" is vague. He was sent back to the island to fulfill a purpose he was not even aware of. All he was told was that he was supposed to be Ben's eyes and ears on the freighter. He was never told at any time that he was supposed to stop the Mercenary team at all costs. Besides, his goal taking up the alias of Kevin Johnson was to remain anonymous. He was not supposed to interfere with the plan. Doing so would mean detr <A2-Sawyers_Stash> . Michaels job was not to spy. And the writers had to get rid of some red shirts without purposes and Danielle wanted out of her contract, I don't think that Michael can be blamed for all those deaths. <-- Wazzipi (~wallylyyy@78-21-59-175.access.telenet.be) has left #lostpedia <A1-TMTTI> Expecting Michael, one character, to be responsible for saving everyone on the island is ridiculous. He is not responsible for all of them. It is asking too much of a character. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> ?why am I green up there? oh well <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Michaels job was not to spy and the writers had to get rid of Danielle because she wanted out of her contract so I don't think Michael can really be blamed for her death. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> was to spy <A2-Sawyers_Stash> sorry <A1-TMTTI> 2. Walt was not in mortal danger? If you were a father, and your son was taken from you forcefully by strangers who you have only known to kill and manipulate, your best action is to try to save him no matter what. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think as a parent you would never assume that your child was just hanging out, you would assume a kidnapped child to be in danger. I don't know anyone that would be ok with their child being kidnapped <A1-TMTTI> As to the reference about his "powers", it's an assumption to say that the Others tried to help him "control it safely". It was more like, manipulate his powers, don't you think? locking him up in the same room as Karl and force him into "rehabilitation"? <A1-TMTTI> 3. Michael may have been misled into getting on that freighter and he did not plan to save the Losties, but that is discounting the fact that he did not know how else to help. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Walt wasn't happy because his father didn't help the others. Which Michael did in fact end up doing. I think if Walt knew what his father had done he would be proud. <A1-TMTTI> Back on the mainland, it was obvious Michael was stewing in grief and regret for what he did. But how else would he be of help? he did not know how to get back to the island, so he resorted to the easy way out. <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <A1-TMTTI> it was not manipulation to get on the freighter, but guiding him, I believe. They needed to show him a way that he could help. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> . What do you mean his sacrifice was to late? He couldn't die any faster he wasn't given the option and when he tried to blow everything up the first time he was told "not yet" He couldn't do that any earlier <A1-TMTTI> As for him making Walt's life miserable, I think it says a lot about Michael that he even told Walt he had killed Ana Lucia and Libby <A2-Sawyers_Stash> now I'm blue? sorry <A1-TMTTI> He preferred to be honest instead of deceitful to his son. <A1-TMTTI> That's a huge leap for him. --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you team A. <Lemonade> A2-Sawyers_Stash, I think it happens when you start your message with a number. <Lemonade> Probably best not to number your points (works fine for A1-TMTTI and B1-Smiley though, so they may continue to use them.) <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, your turn, and you have 5 minutes. <Lemonade> ...which start... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <B1-Smiley> C1. Michael redeemed himself because he was able to put aside his selfish purposes for the sake of others: <B1-Smiley> Suicide is a selfish thing to do, running away from everything. This was Michael�s initial �solution� to his guilt. <B1-Smiley> sorry, wrong box x <B1-Smiley> C2. His reason for killing Ana Lucia and Libby was out of desperation, because he wanted to save Walt like any father would want to do. That done, he was now free to help others: <B1-Smiley> Well, I don't think that taking the life of two people is justification to try and save the life of one, who may or may not be in danger <B1-Smiley> the numbers don't add up. He doesn't respect that Ana and Libby may have their own parents, who may feel the same way as he does <B1-Smiley> C3. Mr. Friendly told him that he would be free to die if he had served his purpose on the island: <B1-Smiley> Well, this brings up back to his initial suicide solution, he wants to escape from what he did. <B1-Smiley> I do not see how Tom saying he can die is redemption for his sins <B1-Smiley> Michael dying does not help the Losties in any way <B1-Smiley> C4. Christian Shephard gave him his blessing. "You can go now, Michael." <B1-Smiley> I believe this could be seen as the Island seeing no more use in Michael, because he had failed. <B1-Smiley> I believe this could be seen as the Island seeing no more use in Michael, because he had failed. The Freighter was going to blow up, it doesn�t mean that Michael had actually helped when Christian said that, moreso that the Island could dispense with him now. <B1-Smiley> Sorry about the typo --- frogs is now known as EstefanDeLaSexface <B1-Smiley> In my defence about Walt being better off with him than the Others, not if you're going to tell them that you're a murderer <B1-Smiley> Not when the Others won't necessarily stick to their word <Lemonade> 1 minute to go <B1-Smiley> Michael took two lives, to save a potential one. This does not add up. Being a Father does not give you the right to kill under the law. --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you B1-Smiley.
Short Break
<Lemonade> Dear fellow Losties, thank you for your patience so far. --- bit is now known as bit|fud <Lemonade> Thanks to the participants, this is turning out to be one of the most well argued debates so far! <Lemonade> Hats off A1-Smiley, B1-TMTTI, and B2-Sawyers_Stash. You deserve a few minutes to recharge your batteries. <Lemonade> We will now take a very very short 10 minute break. <Lemonade> Now is your chance to post questions to the teams, so please PM them to TokyoRose during the break.
Round Four: Q&A
<Lemonade> Welcome back Losties. :-) <Lemonade> Welcome back TMTTI, Sawyers_Stash, and Smiley. <Lemonade> ROUND FOUR: Q&A <Lemonade> My favorite round! <Lemonade> It is time for the teams to answer the viewer questions. <Lemonade> The first question is for team A, and was asked by my beloved daughter, nutelLA: <Lemonade> "Do you think Michael's murdering of Ana Lucia and Libby were really necessary for him to get to his son?" <Lemonade> You've 3 minutes to answer. <Lemonade> Your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> Yes, I believe that is all that motivated him. I can see absolutely no other reason for him to do it. <A1-TMTTI> Everyone was shocked we he killed Libby especially, because she had not "deserved" it somehow. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think Ana would think it was nessessary. She herself killed the man who endangered her son. In Michaels place Ana showed she agreed with his thinking <A1-TMTTI> But I put myself in Michael's position and I feel that if something similar happened to me, I would feel compelled to do everything in my power to save the people I love. I probably wouldn't kill someone to do it, but if I were stuck on an island with someone kidnapping my son and someone hands me a way out, I would take it if it meant saving him. <A1-TMTTI> But that's just me. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think Sayid would think it was nessacary. He himself killed a friend and fellow soldier to free someone he loved. This situation is not unique to Michael. <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <A1-TMTTI> At the start of the season, we know what Michael's goals are: he wants to get off the island with his on. <A1-TMTTI> *son <A1-TMTTI> When that goal is blocked, he has to find a way to make it happen. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think as a parent Michael did what he beleived he had to do. I would like to think I would do whatever it took to save my children, even take a life if it meant saving them. <A1-TMTTI> He was put in a position in which he had no other choice. <A1-TMTTI> I think it's unfortunate that people choose to consider him a murderer when they cannot possibly imagine themselves in his position --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you team A. <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, you have 1 minute to counter. <Lemonade> And your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now. <B1-Smiley> I think there are other possible ways which Michael could have saved Walt, but they're all hypothetical. <B1-Smiley> I don't think murder is the solution to anything <B1-Smiley> As Ben said, the Others didn't ask Mike to kill them <B1-Smiley> It wasn't their intention, but Mike didn't stop and ask for help <B1-Smiley> from the other Losties --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you B1-Smiley. <Lemonade> The next question is directed at team B, and was asked by nickb123. <Lemonade> "If michael didnt redeem himself - what in your opinion did he need to do to justify redemption?" <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, you have 3 minutes. <Lemonade> And your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now. <B1-Smiley> By numbers, if Michael had saved two people's lives, then he could have perhaps been redeemed <B1-Smiley> It's a very cold way of looking at it, but it would balance his scorecard with the Grim Reaper <B1-Smiley> Michael never sought redemption though, I think this is very important to remember <B1-Smiley> if he had gone out, planning to help the Losties, then maybe, even if he failed, he could have been redeemed, as he tried to save them <B1-Smiley> but, he both failed to save two lives, and was pushed into his actions by the Island and the Others <B1-Smiley> He gave up his life too late, he was bound to die <B1-Smiley> He also didn't change, and turn away from murder, showing that he didn't look for redemption, he was still killing <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <B1-Smiley> perhaps also, doing what the Others wanted led him into the mess, (even though they didn't say "Kill them") --> Keely (~Keely@Keely.omgwtfbbq.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia <B1-Smiley> He still listened to them again? Perhaps he would have learnt his lesson <B1-Smiley> in all, I think he had to do more, he didn't save enough lives <B1-Smiley> he only kept information from Keamy because he couldn't die <B1-Smiley> not his own risk --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you B1-Smiley. >Keely< zomg debate <Lemonade> Team A, you have 1 minute to counter. <Lemonade> And your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> I don't think it's right to say that redemption means balancing the numbers with the grim reaper. An eye for an eye? Take two lives, save two back? I think that's a very limited appreciation of "redemption". Redemption is more than just making up for the lives you took. It means overcoming your one character flaw (in Michael's case, selfishness) even under insurmountable circumstances. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> He saved the lives of Sun, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Aaron, hurley, Des and Frank. Thats a few more then 2 by my count. <A1-TMTTI> It is true that Michael never actively sought for redemption after he got off the island, but I think this is due to the fact that he did not know how. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> And who knows how many more his actions could have been saving. <A1-TMTTI> He could not go back to the island by himself even if he wanted to. He was stewing in his grief, and he needed someone to point him in the right direction. --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you guys. <Lemonade> Next up, we have a general question for both teams. <Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously, and will be able to interact with each other. <Lemonade> This question was asked by Mikhail. <Lemonade> "Wouldn't you agree that redemption in Michael's case is vague at best because he wasn't really giving up all goals except the one to undo the damage he has done/help the other Losties?" <Lemonade> Teams A and B, you have 4 minutes. <Lemonade> And your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> Thank you for your question, Patchy. I mean, Mikhail :D Yes, I agree that his redemption is very vague. No one ever really tells him what he needs to do, and I think if you ask fans, their ideas of redemption are very subjective. <B1-Smiley> Michael seemed more determined to protect Walt in his 'redemption' <A1-TMTTI> I feel like when he got on the freighter, he didn't know how he was going to help, but he knew that by doing so he was stepping in the right direction that would at least give him peace. <B1-Smiley> again, what drove him to murdering in the first place <B1-Smiley> This is seen by how Tom says "Or maybe you wanna come back and explain to your kid how you all of them die, too." <B1-Smiley> Again, suggesting that this is a key drive for Michael: Walt's opinion <B1-Smiley> Michael stepping onto the freighter was his only option <B1-Smiley> Tom was manipulating him into it <A1-TMTTI> I think that when Michael got on the freighter, he saw that there was more to redemption than simply killing everyone. Smiley said earlier that Michael was simply finding an easy way out when he wanted to blow up the freighter prematurely, but I think he is missing one major point <B1-Smiley> The Island wouldn't let him die - he'd rather have died <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I do agree its vauge with Michael. Also he was given very little time to get back in peoples good graces. He left directly after his crimes while others had plenty of screen time to be "softened" to the audience for what they have done. <B1-Smiley> "I'm here to die" - I think there is more depth to this than we thought <B1-Smiley> He just wanted to let everything go, perhaps? <A1-TMTTI> The major point being that Michael actually wanted to blow up the freighter, including himself, because he thought that this would help EVERYONE. <B1-Smiley> Michael was helping his OWN guilt, and letting himself die <A1-TMTTI> He was not simply being "yet another murderer" or reverting back to his murderous roots <A1-TMTTI> I think if it were another character, like Sawyer or Sayid, they would have done the same thing <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <B1-Smiley> he actually only saved Desmond, if that, and it was Tom and Ben's manipulation that led him there <B1-Smiley> for the helicopter would not have returned the freighter, for it would not have been there <A1-TMTTI> Tom and Ben's manipulation, according to you, but I feel it was Tom and Ben pointing him in the right direction, but at the same time ultimately serving their purpose too. I just feel like a lot of people overscrutinize Michael. <B1-Smiley> I think they fact we're having this debate suggests he didn't succeed, because he was written in as a redemption story <A1-TMTTI> There are plenty of murderers on the island <A1-TMTTI> Kate, Sawyer, Sayid... <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Whos eyes wer eyou hoping he would redeem himself to? Whats wrong with it being walt? Even if the others wouldn't see what he was doing for them he could still be doing it for them <B1-Smiley> it wasn't quite the happy redemption story people expected <A1-TMTTI> Why aren't people clamoring for their redemption? <B1-Smiley> Michael wanted to die --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you guys, and sorry to cut you off. <Lemonade> We do have a followup question on this discussion, so you may continue for another 3 minutes. <Lemonade> nickb123 says the following: <Lemonade> "i dont think u can ever be redeemed anyway - its all about just trying cause its what needs to be done, right thing to do. u dont try to get redeemed to balance a scorecard and suddenly "yay im redeemed", u do it til u die and constantly try to make amends, and thats what he did." <Lemonade> Let's carry on the discussion for 3 more minutes. <Lemonade> Starting... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> I agree, nickb123. I think some people miss the point of Michael's redemption as a character. The point is, he tried. <A1-TMTTI> He did not simply find the easy way out as per usual. <B1-Smiley> he can never be forgiven, but redeemed, he can <-- Keely (~Keely@Keely.omgwtfbbq.gamesurge) has left #lostpedia <B1-Smiley> He so did! <B1-Smiley> He tried to commit suicide <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Exactly. making the effort to be redeemed is in itself redeeming <B1-Smiley> the easy way out --> sail (~sail@88.232.185.12) has joined #lostpedia <A1-TMTTI> He could have easily killed the people on the freighter, but he maintained his resolved, and even though he HATED the idea that he was working for Ben, he did it anyway because he at least had to trie <B1-Smiley> he tried to kill the people on the freighter... <A1-TMTTI> You are talking about off the freighter, Smiley. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> but he did not in the end actually commit suicide. He died accidentally while trying his best to save the others. <B1-Smiley> He tried to commit suicide as his first option. That's the "easy way out as per" which TMTTI said <A2-Sawyers_Stash> He tried to let off a bomb to save his friends as opposed to the people killing them to hush up what had happened <B1-Smiley> On the freighter, he tried to kill everyone <B1-Smiley> Where is the life-saving Michael? <A1-TMTTI> On the freighter, he sacrificed himself for the others. As soon as he knew Sun was pregnant he made up his mind that he should save them even more <A2-Sawyers_Stash> and that biomb didn't even go off <A2-Sawyers_Stash> He wasn't there to save the freighties lives <A1-TMTTI> He tried to kill everyone who he thought were sent to the island to kill the Losties,. <B1-Smiley> he only sacrficed his life when the gas ran out <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <B1-Smiley> what's the good of that? <A1-TMTTI> He was not given the information he needed by Ben. he was acting on impulse, and yes, it was the wrong idea, but then again, you are talking from an omniscient perspective. if you had been Michael, your perspective is limited <A2-Sawyers_Stash> So he sacrified himself subduing the bomb and youd on't see the good in that? <B1-Smiley> Redeem = to buy or pay off; clear by payment: <-- LinkMcCloud has quit (Signed off) <B1-Smiley> ^ dictionary.com <A1-TMTTI> You are only acting on what you are given. In that case, Michael acted on his gut that these people on the freighter were bad and they were going to do harm to the Losties <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Payment= his life <B1-Smiley> The only way you can redeem is to equal the defeceit --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you guys. --- bit|fud is now known as bit <Lemonade> Next up, a question for team A, asked by TokyoRose: <Lemonade> "Can you explain why you believe it was acceptable for the Island and Christain, who may be the voice of Jacob, to redeem Michael and not the people he had hurt, including the Losties and his own son?" <Lemonade> You have 3 minutes. <Lemonade> And your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Could he have called Walt up in that last moment while gassing the bomb to ask how Walt felt about it? <A1-TMTTI> The island has given people chances before. I think that it was only proper that they (the island and Christian or Jacob) redeemed Michael. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think that Jin would have thanked Michael for what he had done in saving Jins unborn child <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think he did in fact. <-- stlgirl has quit (Registered) --> stlgirl (~UPP@stlgirl.user.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia --- Snoke.NL.EU.GameSurge.net gives channel operator status to stlgirl <A1-TMTTI> Yes, i was a bit surprised that Libby had not appeared and said Christian's lines, but I feel that redemption in this case, for Michael, was bigger than just making up for the mistakes he committed to certain people. <A1-TMTTI> I think redemption was so much bigger in this case, because he had not only an opportunity to help the people he hurt, but the people who were hurting him too, like The Others. <Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <A1-TMTTI> He did not have to help Ben. He did not have to listen to Tom. But he had to put that all aside because there was a bigger picture. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I'm sure the ones who made it to the helicopter were thankful for Michaels sacrifice to come back and resce them <A1-TMTTI> I do think it is unfortunate that the writers did not pencil in a redemption between Michael and Walt <A1-TMTTI> I think that would have been even better, had they included some sort of reconciliation between father and son <A1-TMTTI> But maybe that is just because they thought the whole WAAAAAALT storyline was already overdone --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you team A. <Lemonade> A quick follow-up discussion, again requested by nickb123. <Lemonade> He says: "maybe his motives were more walt than his own redemption." <Lemonade> Let's have 2 minutes for team A, and then 2 more for B1-Smiley to counter. <Lemonade> Team A, your 2 minutes start... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> If this is the case, that his motives were more Walt than his redemption, this to me is even better. This just goes to show that he is selfless. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Walt was one of the people he hurt. Isn't that who we were asked in the original question who he should me making it up to? <A1-TMTTI> Maybe the reason he got on the freighter in the first place was not to redeem himself but so that, whatever happens to him, Walt can rest easy knowing that his father tried to at least do something. <A1-TMTTI> Maybe the whole time he was on the freighter he was thinking, "I hope Walt will think more of me". He was trying to be a hero. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I agree that makes him more selfless. He has not done any of these things for himself but for his son. I don't find parents who act for their children to be selfish but rather, selfless <A1-TMTTI> I think it's funny that people underwrite the notion of Michael' <A1-TMTTI> 's fatherhood <A1-TMTTI> when this is his whole character --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you again team A. --> BauerUK (~bauer@BauerUK.127-0-0-1.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to BauerUK <ChanServ> [BauerUK] YOU... MADE... ME... TOUCH YOUR HANDS FOR STUPID REASONS YOU ACCIDENTALLY SAID YOU HUGGED ME!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NmbljTGqCg&feature=related <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, you have an extra minute to counter (2 instead of 1.) <Lemonade> And your 2 minutes start... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now. <B1-Smiley> Back to the earlier point, where I did not get chance to counter: Had Michael not been on the freighter, then Sayid would not have earned Gault's trust and been able to take the zodiac, which got Sun and Ji Yeon onto the freigher, where they were put in moral peril :p <B1-Smiley> There is little evidence to support that Michael saved Ji Yeon, it's all coincidences about where people are at what time <B1-Smiley> Onto the Walt point, I commented on this earlier <B1-Smiley> As Tom said, I shall quote again, "Or maybe you wanna come back and explain to your kid how you all of them die, too." <B1-Smiley> Again, Michael seems more concerned about his own relationship with Walt than Walt himself <B1-Smiley> He doesn't want Walt to think bad of him <B1-Smiley> Michael wasn't selfless to try to commit suicide <B1-Smiley> And his selfless act in the finale was a waste of time, he was doomed anyway <B1-Smiley> Walt doesn�t know what Michael tried to do, we don�t know if he will ever learn. So he killed people, to save his son, but then leaves him again? --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you B1-Smiley. <-- dienda has quit (Signed off) <Lemonade> The next question is for team B asked by nutelLA: --> dienda (58f57607@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #lostpedia <Lemonade> "How do you respond to the notion that the island wouldn't let Michael die until he is redeemed/his work is done?" <Lemonade> 3 minutes, and your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <B1-Smiley> Firstly, to the end <B1-Smiley> Christian letting Michael go was perhaps discarding a useless tool <B1-Smiley> He had failed to help the situation <B1-Smiley> The Island cures people, it may have tried to cure Michael in this way <B1-Smiley> but not necessarily to save others <B1-Smiley> Jacob could also have wanted Michael to repent before death <B1-Smiley> instead of fleeing through suicide <B1-Smiley> Much like how he punishes Ben with cancer <B1-Smiley> The O6 weren't meant to leave <B1-Smiley> yet the Island keeps Michael alive <B1-Smiley> I think that he wasn't meant to help them get off the Island <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <B1-Smiley> The Island isn't flawless <B1-Smiley> It led Locke to the Pearl <B1-Smiley> which led to a System Failure <B1-Smiley> It perhaps, isn't always right? <B1-Smiley> Unlike me, of course :p --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Well done B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Team A, 1 minute to counter. <Lemonade> Starting... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> Well, Michael's story is over. If you don't think his mission on the freighter was to redeem himself by helping the Losties, why DO you think he was on the freighter in the first place? He could have declined Ben's proposition. He could have made Walt's life even more miserable by just not doing anything. <A1-TMTTI> But he took up the offer that was given to him by the man who had caused all this suffering on him in the first place. <A1-TMTTI> He overcame that obstacle. Point: redemption. --> bigsimpsin (~chatzilla@75-169-140-84.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #lostpedia <A2-Sawyers_Stash> People die on Lost when they've come full circle and I beleive we've seen that with Michael. He came back to do the right thing. <A1-TMTTI> I don't think Christian's "You can go now" was meant to say "you're useless, so leave" --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash <Lemonade> Thank you team A. <Lemonade> We have 2 more questions left. <Lemonade> Next up, a general question for both teams. <Lemonade> nickb123 (who you probably hate by now) wants to know: <Lemonade> "Libby's death was accidental, ana's was the premeditated one -- but ana was a murderer herself, does that change your way of thinking about Michael�s redemption?" <Lemonade> You have 4 minutes. --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Starting... <Lemonade> Now <B1-Smiley> Is it right to kill a killer? <A1-TMTTI> nickb123, I hate you, but I will answer your question haha (just kidding nick, we like you). No it doesn't change my way of thinking about Michael's redemption. <B1-Smiley> the law doesn't say so <B1-Smiley> MICHAEL: I had to, man. I, God, I couldn't find any other way. And Libby was a mistake. I, I didn't have time to think. <B1-Smiley> HURLEY: But if you did have time�you still would have killed her, right? <A1-TMTTI> he didn't set out to kill Ana because she's a murderer. He killed Ana because she was in the way of him saving Walt, and to an extent, so was Libby (although we are understood that this was accidental) <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I think that theres alot to be said for the fact that we know almost nothing about Libby. she could very well have been a murderer as well and I feel that the only reason people are so upset about that was because she was Hurleys girlfriend not because she was good. <B1-Smiley> Libby would have died if Michael could think about it or not <B1-Smiley> Plus, Ana changed <A1-TMTTI> You could have put two different characters in Libby and Ana Lucia's place, and they still would have been the same to Michael./ <B1-Smiley> she was on a journey on the Island, changing <B1-Smiley> She was no longer the murderer she used to be <A1-TMTTI> Everyone on the island changed! <A1-TMTTI> The beauty of Lost is that each character evolves <B1-Smiley> Exactly, he doesn't have the right to kill anyone <A1-TMTTI> Even Nikki and Paulo, in their final moments, underwent some kind of change! <B1-Smiley> Michael didn't know Ana was a murderer, it made no impact --> Trevpotle (478044aa@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #lostpedia <B1-Smiley> It made what he did no better <A1-TMTTI> I don't think it matters that Ana Lucia was a murderer. If it was someone else, Michael would have probably still killed them because he needed to help Walt. <A1-TMTTI> This puts aside the notion that it was "easy" for Michael because Ana Lucia had done bad things. <A1-TMTTI> It wasn't easy. <Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> He was sorry for the deaths regardless. I imagine if I killed someone I would be sorry I had taken a life weather or not the person deserved it or not. I think he was sorry that he killed someone no matter what their crimes in life were. <B1-Smiley> It's irrelevant really <A1-TMTTI> He obviously grieved for the situation. But in desperate times, you resort to desperate measures. And even if it killed him inside to take these two lives, he had to. he didn't know what else to do! <A1-TMTTI> He was left with no other choice. <B1-Smiley> He shouldn't have killed either of them <B1-Smiley> It's immoral <A1-TMTTI> Yes, and Ana Lucia shouldn't have killed the man she killed. Sawyer shouldn't have killed that guy at the hot dog stand --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you guys. <Lemonade> You are probably exhausted by now, but keep the energy up for the last few minutes. <Lemonade> To wrap up the Q&A, I have a general question for both teams. <Lemonade> "If Michael could go back in time, and had the choice to do it all over again, do you think he would still kill Ana-Lucia and Libby? To be truly redeemed, he has to act differently this time round. Discuss." <Lemonade> Let's have 5 minutes for this one. <Lemonade> Starting... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> Wow, a tough one. <-- TheIsland has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <B1-Smiley> He would have killed Libby if he could stop and think <B1-Smiley> But I understand you are asking beyond that --> TheIsland (~TheIsland@TheIsland.user.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia <A1-TMTTI> If Michael could go back and time with all the information that he had in the future, he probably wouldn't have, but I don't doubt that he would have inflicted some kind of damage. <B1-Smiley> He wouldn't have acted any differently, he would have been determined to get Walt off the Island <B1-Smiley> I don't think he would have told Walt again <-- TheIsland has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <A2-Sawyers_Stash> I don't see why he has to make a difference choice to be redeemed. Because I was under the impretion that redeemed meant to pay for what you did and not erase it. <A1-TMTTI> here's the thing about that season finale: Michael had no choice. At least that's how he felt. Knowing what we know as viewers, and how we can't possibly imagine ourselves in his position, it's hard to say that he wouldn't have done the same thing. <A1-TMTTI> Michael's redemption doesn't lie in NOT killing Libby and Ana Lucia. <B1-Smiley> no choice about what, sorry? <B1-Smiley> I agree with TMTTI, the question is a bit invalid <A2-Sawyers_Stash> It lies in the actions done to make things right afterwards <A1-TMTTI> I agree with SS <A1-TMTTI> Michael needs redemption BECAUSE he killed Ana Lucia and Libby <A1-TMTTI> I think it did wonders for his character, IMO. <B1-Smiley> Michael was determined to save Walt however <B1-Smiley> he would do it they most "sure-fire" method he could <A1-TMTTI> Agreed, Smiley. <B1-Smiley> he knows it works to take that evil route, I don't think he'd change <B1-Smiley> He knows Ben let's them go, that's enough for him <A1-TMTTI> He did whatever he needed to in order to overcome the situation, and I think he did. Would he go back and do it all over again? Yes. <A1-TMTTI> If it meant saving Walt, I think he would. <B1-Smiley> Actually, having seen what happens, he might not have boarded the freighter! <A1-TMTTI> I don't think he would have killed Libby. <A2-Sawyers_Stash> Undoing the action wouldn't redeem him only take away his need for redemtion and makes the question almost unaskable. <A1-TMTTI> Yes, agreed SS <B1-Smiley> his contribution was minimal, so he may have cared for Walt instead <B1-Smiley> He would have done, and this was implied by the writers, who ARE Michael <A1-TMTTI> His contribution was not minimal! He was Ben's eyes and ears on the freighter! <Lemonade> 1 minute left. <A1-TMTTI> How else would Ben have known about the mercs? <B1-Smiley> Unless he waited, I guess <B1-Smiley> Yeah, because knowing Keamy's name helped a lot... <A1-TMTTI> The Losties would have been completely decimated had they not been given the info via mIchael <A2-Sawyers_Stash> And then everyone really would have died if they didn't have that spy <B1-Smiley> he disabled the engines, but the helicopter could still reach the Island <B1-Smiley> decimated means to kill 1/10th of the population <A1-TMTTI> It wasn't just knowing Keamy's name, it was knowing their moves, what they intended, how many people there were... --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI A2-Sawyers_Stash B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Well done guys!
Round Five: Closing Statements
<Lemonade> Well done guys! <Lemonade> And now the words you have longed to read... <Lemonade> Closing Statements <Lemonade> Team leaders will now present their closing statements. <Lemonade> Each team leader has 3 minutes. --> TheIsland (~TheIsland@TheIsland.user.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia <ChanServ> [TheIsland] TheIsland <3 Kadaj <Lemonade> Last round, but possibly the most important one. <Lemonade> A1-TMTTI your time starts... --- Lemonade gives voice to A1-TMTTI <Lemonade> Now <A1-TMTTI> In Lemonade's intro, it was mentioned that Michael is a very polarizing figure among fans of Lost. This is true, but I think this is very unfortunate. <A1-TMTTI> because I feel that he is one of the most interesting and layered characters on the show <-- TheIsland has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <A1-TMTTI> at the get go, Michael puts his character out there.All he wants to do is get off the island safely with his son. <A1-TMTTI> If that means having to go to desperate measures to make sure his son is safe and secure, then this demonstrates just how far he would go to attain this goal <-- makkus has quit (Signed off) <A1-TMTTI> one thing that can be said about Lost as a show is that it gives the characters so many opportunities for redemption. <Lemonade> 1 minute left. --> TheIsland (~TheIsland@TheIsland.user.gamesurge) has joined #lostpedia <ChanServ> [TheIsland] TheIsland <3 Kadaj <A1-TMTTI> I think it can be said that every character is united by the idea of redemption on the island. --> bigsimpsin_ (~chatzilla@75-169-140-84.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #lostpedia <A1-TMTTI> Redempion is about more than "balancing numbers" with the Grim Reaper, or making up for the mistakes you did to certain people,. <A1-TMTTI> It's about transcending a character flaw, in this case, Michael's ways selfishness. --- Lemonade removes voice from A1-TMTTI <Lemonade> Thank you A1-TMTTI. <-- bigsimpsin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <Lemonade> B1-Smiley, it's all yours for the next 3 minutes... <Lemonade> Starting... --- Lemonade gives voice to B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Now <B1-Smiley> Thank you, Team A, for a good debate <B1-Smiley> Thankfully it wasn't a three-headed beast, or it would have been too traumatic <B1-Smiley> I might have had to be collected in little pieces <B1-Smiley> During Michael�s time on the Freighter, he tried to kill everyone on it, then Keamy ran around the Island killing people. Later, the freighter blew up, and only Desmond escaped as a direct result of Michael�s actions. <B1-Smiley> He didn�t make up for his actions. What he did was too horrific, his redemption efforts too slight. <B1-Smiley> . It was only after he couldn�t take his preferred route, death, and that Tom manipulated him, that he boarded the freighter. <B1-Smiley> It is evident in the alley fight that Michael didn�t want to hear what Tom had to say, but here he was, a connection to the Island, a connection to redemption! <B1-Smiley> He rejected it, only interested, selfishly, why he can�t die. This shows his true priorities <B1-Smiley> He boarded the freighter to grant himself death <B1-Smiley> As you said, Michael is a polarizing character. This is evidence that he INTENDED to redeem himself, but actually failed to. Hence today�s debate. <B1-Smiley> The "balancing" way is the only way to judge redemption <Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <B1-Smiley> TRYING to is all very well and good, but really, that isn't redemption <-- bigsimpsin_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <B1-Smiley> Oh, wait, actually I�ve changed my opinion, at the very last moment: I think Michael redeemed himself by not screaming WAAAAAAAAAALT at all in Season Four. We must thank him for that. <B1-Smiley> Thank you for listening, boys and girls --> bigsimpsin_ (~chatzilla@75-169-140-84.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #lostpedia --- Lemonade removes voice from B1-Smiley <Lemonade> Thank you Smiley. <-- TheIsland has quit (Ping timeout) <Lemonade> And that, ladies and gentlemen, concludes this week's event. <Lemonade> I hope you had a great time! <Lemonade> A poll will be opened on the lostpedia forums shortly, so please make sure you vote for your favorite team. <Lemonade> I want to thank both teams and the viewers for joining us this afternoon/evening. <Lemonade> Thank you to our judges -- TokyoRose, nickb123, and alwayslost01, and to all OPs on lostpedia. <Lemonade> As always, a BIG thank you to all my friends on lostpedia who have been patient with the +m mode during this debate. <Lemonade> We will see you all two weeks from now, with another action packed event! <Lemonade> Have a great week. This is your host Lemonade signing off. :-)
Event Winner
Team A: Michael was redeemed.
