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QUERY POSTED IN A TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE PLACE
... for reasons which are obvious if you read below:
- Haven't any of you people ever heard of a 'discussion page'?
- This page is a complete mess , is totally unreadable and needs a complete cleanup.
- Is there a main editor on this page?
Coexistence
- It is not an alternate timeline, but an alternate universe altogether. Neither universe was created by actions taken within the other, but have always coexisted parallel to one another. Nevertheless, certain actions taken within each universe can have an effect on the other, such as Juliet's detonation of the hydrogen bomb. The bomb's energy transfered to the parallel universe as a side effect of the electromagnetic pocket of energy. This lead to the Island sinking in the parallel universe.
- The Dark entity is originally from this universe, and it is to there which he is trying to return.
- The existence of a parallel universe allowed Faraday's reset to work while at the same time preserving the Novikov self-consistency principle ("Whatever happened, happened").
- I like this idea, but it's probably too complicated. Perhaps this "new 2004," is what happens after they go through the duration of Season 6 - this would be consistant with how the show plays with time. Maybe it's a simple flashforward.
- I agree with you, I think the whole "flash-sideways timeline" is actually the epilogue to the "on-island timeline" story. In other series you see that in the series finale there is a conlusion to the story and after that they give you an epilogue of 15-20 minutes to give you an idea of what happens to the characters, for Lost this would be just to short a time, so to keep it interesting (and confusion) they spread it over the course of the season and call it flash-sideways.
- I like this idea, but it's probably too complicated. Perhaps this "new 2004," is what happens after they go through the duration of Season 6 - this would be consistant with how the show plays with time. Maybe it's a simple flashforward.
- It is not an alternate timeline, but just the iteration before the one in which the oceanic 815 crashed on the island. We have seen only two iterations through the show broadcasted till now. Maybe there are millions of iterations. It is nothing to do with the explosion or the incident. It is now revealed just for confusing us like the Juliet's last words "it worked". In the previous iteration Ben didn't invited the button and initiated a time loop and Desmond never came to the island and not caused the oceanic 815 to crash. In this previous iteration Jacob failed to change the destiny of the island and started another iteration by manipulating various events.
- The LAX versions of the losties are the only ones who exist in "real" time. The ones still on the island are in some kind of limbo where they can neither die nor truly live, because the timeline they belong in no longer exists.. the people of the temple are some kind of timekeepers assigned to keep them there so that they dont mess up the real timeline.
- The timeline they used to be on does not exist outside the island anymore. The timeline is one where the island has not influenced them e.g. Jacob not paying for Kate's lunchbox caused her to be separated from Tom, hence no toy, Sawyer did not complete his letter, letting it go. The island's timeline influences their experiences and the same meetings happen. However, the losties then have a choice to remain or the island or die and return to the world without the island.
The Numbers in the Alternate Timeline
- The difference in Jack's seat number (23 in the original timeline and 24 in the alternate timeline) suggest an alteration to the core values of the Valenzetti Equation in the parallel universe.
- Hugo used these new numbers to win the lottery, which in turn resulted in his apparent good fortune.
Nature of timelines
A Theory about the Science underpinning the Alternate Timelines
The way that events are shaping up, some explanation and rules are becoming apparent. To begin with, it is clear that “Whatever Happened, Happened” (WHH) is always held to be true, for a particular timeline. However, it is also true that “The Universe has a way of ‘course correcting’”, (CC) is also held as a tenet. Now clearly, both these cannot be true if we think of the universe as having a single timeline, otherwise how can a universe ‘course correct’, if there is only a single line? The concept of CC implies that there are at least two possible tracks, and one of these is the ‘desired’ one.
Hence, this puts us in the realm of Everett’s Multiverse. At each quantum event, the universe can split into two, bifurcating into possible universes which reflect the ‘choices’ made. Each choice effectively creates a new timeline, and a new history, and, as choices pile up, a potential infinitude of universes with different histories. However, (and this is where I think the produces have ‘invented their own version of the Multiverse’), if the universe CC’s then it is possible that after the quantum splits, some of the timelines may converge to what ‘ought’ to be; in other words, there are some events which have to happen, and it doesn’t matter what decisions are made, WHH. In quantum electrodynamics there is a notion called “sum over histories”, in which an event can be seen as the sum of all possible paths leading to that event. I think it is this idea that the producers are drawing on here. All the different decisions on all the different timelines converge back to the one event: “It only happens once, everything else is just progress”.
The question is, what happens to people’s consciousness and memories when timelines converge? Clearly people can only remember one sequence of events, and they could choose the most probable, or possibly the one for them which makes the most sense, or provides them with the greatest satisfaction (?). However, they did experience all sets of events leading to WHH, but these memories will not so much be suppressed, as never occur. In the Lost universe, it seems there are some ‘special’ people who are able to see these multiple timelines: Desmond, Eloise Hawking, Jacob, possibly Richard?
The episodes involving Faraday and Desmond provide the clearest statement of the multiple 'convergent' approach. In FBYE, for example we know that both Eloise Hawking and Desmond are exposed to multiple timelines. In the ring shop in FBYE, she cryptically says “Is this your first time?”, but then later on, she not only says “No, you do not buy the ring”, but goes on to tell him exactly what will happen over the course of the next few years. Additionally, she is able to give a catalogue of events which might befall the man with red shoes, if she were to attempt to prevent his imminent death. This episode might be interpreted as ‘illustration’, were it not for the fact that Desmond attempts to do just that with Charlie, and prevent his death from occurring. In one of the timelines he could well have had a conversation with Claire, responding to the question of “If you knew he was going to be killed by lightning, why didn’t you prevent it?”, Desond might have said something along the lines of: “If I’d have stopped that, he would have drowned trying to rescue you, and if I prevented that he would have slipped off a cliff trying to catch a bird, and if that didn’t happen he would either have been killed in the jungle Or drowned, switching off the jamming signal” At the end of series 5 Eloise Hawking admits “For the first time in a long time, I don’t know what happens next.”, implying that at least for her the multiple timelines have converged.
Apart from anything else, this “multiple convergent timeline” theory is the perfect platform in which to play out notions of destiny v. free will and fate v. coincidence.
The explanation of ‘multiple timelines’ also solves problems of the paradox of the compass, and Faraday’s death. These are not time-loops, so much as time-spirals. This can be berst explained by considering Faraday’s death. In reality A, Faraday is killed by his own pregnant mother in 1977; she then has a baby who grows up to be Faraday A, who time travels to 1977. However, in doing this, Faraday A ends up in reality B, a slightly different version of events, only to be killed by the reality B version of his pregnant mother, who subsequently has a baby (Faraday B) who grows up to time travel back to 1977, ending up in reality C, getting killed there and where, in the same reality, a version Faraday C is born. This repeates as often as you like. It does not cause a paradox, as it just creates a chain of events spiralling throough alternate histories. It reiterates the WHH principle, and no matter how hard you try, the universe has a way of CC. However, it does leave open the possibility that at some point in the iterations, it would be possible to break the chain. Even so, it might still be the case that Faraday was destined to be killed via some sort of time-travelling accident, just as Eloise was destined to leave the island, as part of some course correction. --Sean Sheep 11:51, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
Schrodinger's Cat
- I'm no quantum physisist, but this basic theory, as mentioned above, makes some sense. Simply put, as someone already stated, "According to Erwin Schrödinger, the consequences of a 'random' event can lead to both outcomes simultaneously - until, that is, the event is 'observed' and the true outcome becomes reality."
According to Schrödinger, the Copenhagen interpretation implies that the cat remains both alive and dead (to the universe outside the box) until the box is opened.
Put in LOST terms, the lost people are both on the island (plane crashed) and off the island (plane never crashed) (to the viewer (outside the box)), until someone is able to peer inside and actually see what happened...in other words, one of the lost people is going to have to "open the box" (aka, find a way to see what actually happened) in order to reveal the true reality of the effect of the bomb. Therefore, the rest of the season will be showing us, the viewer, both POSSIBLE outcomes of what happened when the bomb went off (off the island vs. on the island) At some point someone (maybe Desmond) will have the ability to 'peer inside the box' and figure out which reality actually happened as a result of the bomb.
- Charlie told Hurley in The Beginning of the End: "I am dead. But I'm also here," suggesting that he was "in two places at once."
- The problem with this is that Juliet already confirmed that there is a parallel present. She (after she died) told Miles that "it worked." So why hasn't that observation by someone who is technically outside the timeline (dead) forced one of the two outcomes?
- Does the Juliet in the parallel timeline also have to die so that the two versions of her can be a united observer?
- Magic box? It could be a race to the box now. The nuke did "work," as Juliet said, but the task is not over. Someone just needs to get to the box with a wish to go home, and then they all get snapped to the flashsideways timeline. However someone could just as easily get to the box with a wish not to go home.
- "Schroedinger's Cat" does not work by consciously wishing or willing the outcome. The idea came about with the thought, similar to and deriving from Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, that the observer him/herself actually has an influence the outcome of an experiment/observation. Now, the reason WHY I'm not all too sure about, and if I remember correctly I believe that the criticism of this idea is that there could be no particular reason at all other than the mere fact that someone is observing the situation. Now, I guess one could make the argument that subconscious desires could have an effect if you're into Noetic Science or something similar, but I think it is important to note this distinction with "Schroedinger's Cat".
- Schrodinger's Cat states that the cat can exist various states on the spectrum between life and death. It is never entirely alive and never entirely dead, but merely exists as a function of a probability as far as the quantum (electron/atomic) world is concerned. As far as an outside observer altering the result of an experiment, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that we can never know the exact quantum positions and velocities of electrons, because trying to measure them distorts the data. The more accurately one can determine the position, the more the velocity is affected (the electron must theoretically be stopped to accurately determine position). By the same token, to determine an accurate velocity, a starting and ending position must be known, in which case velocity must be "paused". So it is not that an observer "wills" the outcome, as much as they distort an accurate reading. However, in the macroscopic world, a concrete object must fall into one discrete category (dead or alive in the case of the cat) but that is again based on the probability of the quantum (electron) events. The one that is most probable is the one we experience in our macroscopic reality. One theory, proposed by Richard Feynman, is the idea of multiple histories, in which all possible alternative choices are made, and thus all possible realities are accounted for (which string theory predicts occur in dimensions too small to ever be detected), but again the reality we are presented with is the one that has the greatest probability of existing. Physics definitely plays a part on LOST i.e. time travel but I'm still not convinced that both these timelines are independent of each other - instead I think we'll come to learn that this "new timeline" may be just a reset of sorts caused by a future event we haven't seen yet, not a parallel universe) I do think that delving into the world of subatomic quantum theory in a network show is too much for the writers to try to explain to the audience, they'll come up with an easier-to-digest explanation.
- Agree that quantum theory isn't an explanation, the Schrodinger's cat paradox is resolved by Feynman and others, all possibilities smear into one on the macroscopic level of cats and Losties. In any case, even a mystical interpretation of quantum mechancial ideas seems like too much of a technical "out" for the writers to take.
- The Incident implies particle interaction, so a quantum interpretation may seem plausible (they've suggested a Casimir Effect in explaining what lies underneath the Orchid, so using quantum theory doesn't look more obscure than that). But the cat paradox (which, on a side note, is not resolved at all, since quantum theory isn't complete yet) doesn't quite fit the bill. Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation, on the other hand, actually may seem a reasonable explanation. To simplify, reality splits at every quantum measurement into two equally real universes, making the Uncertainity Principle illusory, since from a Multiversal point of view there is no indetermination. So, the Incident has two possible outcomes: one where the bomb negates the electromagnetic energy of the Swan, one where it doesn't. The first outcome creates the flash sideways timeline (which always existed, since WHH), the second creates the good old timeline that we've seen since season 1.
- Agree that quantum theory isn't an explanation, the Schrodinger's cat paradox is resolved by Feynman and others, all possibilities smear into one on the macroscopic level of cats and Losties. In any case, even a mystical interpretation of quantum mechancial ideas seems like too much of a technical "out" for the writers to take.
- Schrodinger's Cat states that the cat can exist various states on the spectrum between life and death. It is never entirely alive and never entirely dead, but merely exists as a function of a probability as far as the quantum (electron/atomic) world is concerned. As far as an outside observer altering the result of an experiment, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that we can never know the exact quantum positions and velocities of electrons, because trying to measure them distorts the data. The more accurately one can determine the position, the more the velocity is affected (the electron must theoretically be stopped to accurately determine position). By the same token, to determine an accurate velocity, a starting and ending position must be known, in which case velocity must be "paused". So it is not that an observer "wills" the outcome, as much as they distort an accurate reading. However, in the macroscopic world, a concrete object must fall into one discrete category (dead or alive in the case of the cat) but that is again based on the probability of the quantum (electron) events. The one that is most probable is the one we experience in our macroscopic reality. One theory, proposed by Richard Feynman, is the idea of multiple histories, in which all possible alternative choices are made, and thus all possible realities are accounted for (which string theory predicts occur in dimensions too small to ever be detected), but again the reality we are presented with is the one that has the greatest probability of existing. Physics definitely plays a part on LOST i.e. time travel but I'm still not convinced that both these timelines are independent of each other - instead I think we'll come to learn that this "new timeline" may be just a reset of sorts caused by a future event we haven't seen yet, not a parallel universe) I do think that delving into the world of subatomic quantum theory in a network show is too much for the writers to try to explain to the audience, they'll come up with an easier-to-digest explanation.
- You can search lostpedia for "box" for lots of comments on the "magic box" idea. The metaphor of a box was used by Ben to explain one of the secrets of the island to Locke in "The Man from Tallahassee": Benjamin Linus says: Let me put it so you'll understand. Picture a box. You know something about boxes, don't you John? What if I told you that, somewhere on this island, there is a very large box and whatever you imagined, whatever you wanted to be in it when you opened that box, there it would be? What would you say about that, John?” The writers subsequently indicated that the metaphor applies to the island as a whole.
- "Schroedinger's Cat" does not work by consciously wishing or willing the outcome. The idea came about with the thought, similar to and deriving from Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, that the observer him/herself actually has an influence the outcome of an experiment/observation. Now, the reason WHY I'm not all too sure about, and if I remember correctly I believe that the criticism of this idea is that there could be no particular reason at all other than the mere fact that someone is observing the situation. Now, I guess one could make the argument that subconscious desires could have an effect if you're into Noetic Science or something similar, but I think it is important to note this distinction with "Schroedinger's Cat".
- By changing the outcome of the past, Jack essentially created two boxes, as both timelines have now transcended potentiality. Both realities are existing parallel to one another.
- In Numbers, after Hurley tells Leonard that he used the numbers to win the lottery, Leonard becomes hysterical and says, "You shouldn't have done that. You've opened the box." This could have determined which reality actually happened; however, it may just be a reference to Pandora's Box.
The Alternate Reality represents the New vs. Old Testament
It seems that the death of Jacob in the flesh opened a new chapter of sorts for the Losties. In the original reality, God/Jacob's world is characterized by strict rules, unnatural sacrifices and hardships, while in the new world he is forgiving, his people must choose to follow him, etc. It could be said it is Jacob's plan to change his approach and give his people a choice. There never appeared to be a choice before when he told Ben or Richard what to do or when he brought people to the island. The idea of having a choice is new as Ben was the first person he gave a choice to. Everything prior was fear-based.
Timeline x is between S5 and S6
Desmond had an experience in a different timeline (his past, slightly altered) which was recounted in the episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes". This experience occured when he turned the key that blasted the hatch. That was an explosion + the energy at The Swan. The explosion in 1977? Explosion + energy at The Swan. So the alternate timeline is a similar experience for everyone who was present at that blast. Only, they don't carry memory between timelines, whereas we know Desmond to be special because he does. This would explain why Kate woke up in the tree.... remember how Desmond just appeared in the jungle? All the stuff in this new timeline occurs at the point of the explosion, and ends simultaneously in the real timeline, and everyone carries on from where they left off (having no recollection of their experience).
Timeline x represents Season 7
What the Timeline x shows us could be what ultimately happens to the characters after the successful reset is finally done (not in the end of season 5 but by the end of season 6 in the real (island) timeline). So it's an alternative timeline which becomes the "only true timeline" after the successful reset. Timeline x happens in 2004 and possibly goes on to investigate whether the characters would still have the same fates ahead of them even without the influence of the island. Showing us the island timeline and Timeline x simultaneously the creators are also able to tell the chronological stories of both seasons 6 and "7" during this one season we have left.
- This seems like a plausible theory. It would be a good way for the producer's to tell more of the story with only a limited amount of time remaining to tell it. They may be leading up to an event at the series finale that would actually make it so that Oceanic 815 didnt crash at all, and we are being shown now what happens afterward, in sort of a remix of the flash-forward. It would be a less-complicated way to avoid all the issues and complications involved with quantum theory, multi-verse and string theory. Some things would need to be explained however, such as the blood on Jacks neck on the non-crashing O815, and the 'déja-vu'-like feelings Jack, Kate and Claire (Aaron) seem to be having.
Timeline x: flashforwards
- The Sideways universe is actually a flash forward - specifically, it's the result of a reset - not from the H-bomb incident, but from some other incident that will occur later in the season. THAT reset will be the one that causes the island to end up at the bottom of the ocean; and we'll also see Jack get that specific injury on his neck right before the new reset. So though the events on the plane in the Sideways universe take place in 2004, and our heroes are on island in 2007/8, the 2004 events are a flash forward because they occur down the road after a new and successful reset. It's not so much a different universe, but more so the eventual result of changing the past (later on in the season).
- The premiere is the beginning of the end. The events from the on-island timeline will eventually lead right into the timeline of the plane landing at LAX, with these two timelines will join during the series finale. The events of the LAX timeline is the epilogue of Lost. We are essentially seeing what happens after the series "ends", we just don't know how they get there yet. Just imagine the kind of ending we are going to get with this structure.
- Jack STILL has work to do. The reason some of the Losties from the Ajira flight went back to the 70s was to save the other :osties that were stuck there. The bomb explosion corrected the Losties in time, but is probably what led to the incident/the plane crashing in the first place. Now that the Losties are in their place in time, work can be done to reset everything, which is what is what Jack accomplishes once he fulfills his destiny (the result of which is what we see in this supposed 'alternate timeline'. where this 'future to come' takes our Losties, we'll just have to wait and find out)
- The two timelines are a clear representation of the famous Schrödinger's cat paradox. The producers are simultaneously revealing the events of two timelines as they would result from a single event (the detonation of the bomb, and it's interaction with the pocket of special energy at the Swan) According to Erwin Schrödinger, the consequences of a 'random' event can lead to both outcomes simultaneously - until, that is, the event is 'observed' and the true outcome becomes reality.
- TPTB have mentioned in the past about a magic "box" and when you open it, whatever you want to be in there will be. This could be a metaphor for what's happening, offering two possibilities and only allowing one to exist once the "box" is opened.
- Someone will find a way to look into the alternate reality and choose which one to accept.
- So, a random event can lead to both outcomes simultaneously - until the event is 'observed', which means unless it ACTUALLY happens. So what we're seeing now are the two possible futures for the losties, both of which can happen, but not one has ACTUALLY happened. In the finale, it will probably go back to the 'beginning' where Juliet detonates the bomb, and then we will 'observe' which event will be the true outcome and hence reality.
- Schrödinger's thought experiment of the cat in the box is intended to show that both outcomes "ACTUALLY" occur. The act of observing the outcome does not negate the existence of either possibility, it merely defines within which of the alternate realities the observer's subjective timeline exists. Reality exists in both universes, but the act of observation will define which universe the producer's wish to place us into.
- They could make the series completely out there and metafictional, and say that by observing the universe, we define the outcome. The climactic episode could involve the characters finding out they're living in a fictional universe, where in both universe's the losties are forced to fight anthropomorphic personification of evil in the shape of the Nemesis, in the end both universes appear to travel towards some apocalyptic climax, which ends ambiguously, implying that by observing, we mentally decide the outcome for ourselves.
- The two timelines could've come into existence immediately after the detonation: One timeline where the explosion reset everything and another where the explosion didn't fix anything. However, in the first timeline they were were transoported to 2004 and in the other one they were transported to 2007. So both timelines exist as if the bomb was detonated. Theoretcially speaking though, there are also two timelines that exist based on the bomb detonation and one without a detonation, but that's not the case here.
- Schrödinger's cat paradox arises not because the cat is either dead or alive, but because the cat must exist in both states dead AND alive at the same time until the state of the cat can be observed.
- The two realities will converge into one in the final episode.
- "Everything that Rises Must Converge"..., based on DESTINY and COURSE CORRECTION, the two timelines must meet because "IT ONLY ENDS ONCE".
- Instead of Schrödinger's two simultaneous outcomes, maybe this is just an alternate dimension. Both will always exist.
- The cat was both dead and alive at the same time until it is observed. By watching these events, aren't they being observed? Therefore this can not be the case
- TPTB have mentioned in the past about a magic "box" and when you open it, whatever you want to be in there will be. This could be a metaphor for what's happening, offering two possibilities and only allowing one to exist once the "box" is opened.
- Charlie remembers (at least part of) his time on the island. "I was supposed to die!"
- "I was supposed to die" could be a reference to his attempted suicide by swollowing the heroin on the plane, nothing to do with the island
- And when Jack recognized Desmond.
- Jack could have recognized Desmond from when they were running the stairs together in LA.
- Jack recognized Desmond in the Swan in season 2 fairly easily, so if they did run the stairs in L.A. in this storyline, why would Jack not have recognized Desmond as easily on the plane?
- It was the fact desmond said "brother" that triggered the memory in the Swan. He didn't say that on the plane so his memory wasn't triggered
- Perhaps Desmond and Jack never ran the steps together in L.A.
- It was the fact desmond said "brother" that triggered the memory in the Swan. He didn't say that on the plane so his memory wasn't triggered
- Jack recognized Desmond in the Swan in season 2 fairly easily, so if they did run the stairs in L.A. in this storyline, why would Jack not have recognized Desmond as easily on the plane?
- Jack could have recognized Desmond from when they were running the stairs together in LA.
- And when Jack recognized Desmond.
- Desmond could have possibly been appearing from another dimension, he is "unique" and "special," and "the rules don't apply" to him.
- Maybe Desmond was doing "his thing" of jumping timezones because he disappeared after his initial interraction with Jack. No sign of him prior to the landing OR at LAX...
- It is suggested that Eloise Hawking had some influence on Desmond meeting Penny, they wouldn't have shown a picture of her with the Monk otherwise. Eloise was doing the course correcting for Desmond to ensure that he would get to the Island and push the button and keep all of the events in motion that happened up to the end of season 5. BUT if there was no button to push, Eloise wouldn't have had to coax Desmond to do anything, and he wouldn't have met Penny, and wouldn't have had to go around the world.
- In this alternate timeline, Eloise would have died when the bomb went off in 1977. Penny would never be born, Desmond wouldn't be running at the stadium.
- The island didn't "blow up". It simply sunk beneath the ocean.
- Penny is not Ellie's daughter. She is Widmore's daughter with an unnamed "outsider", and the reason he was banished. It's possible Penny was conceived off the island before the incident.
- The producers made it pretty clear that Jack was having some type of Deja Vu, suggesting that a small part of him remembers being on the Island, but not enough to consciously think about it.
- In this alternate timeline, Eloise would have died when the bomb went off in 1977. Penny would never be born, Desmond wouldn't be running at the stadium.
- He also could have successfully won the race around the world, and won the respect of Widmore, as well as Penny. So he would still have been in the stadium training.
- The Island exists outside normal space-time and a functional time machine. When the hydrogen bomb detonates it creates a parallel timeline in which the Island was destroyed and sunk into the ocean, however this prevents Juliet ever arriving on the Island and going back in time to set off a bomb. This classic Grandfather paradox is solved by the creation of a second divergent timeline, explaining why Sawyer and Jack believe they have failed because their existence outside normal space-time has not changed.
- "I was supposed to die" could be a reference to his attempted suicide by swollowing the heroin on the plane, nothing to do with the island
- What we are seeing are divergent timelines, created when Juliet caused the H-Bomb to detonate. Time cannot be changed, but can be diverted onto a new path. The nature of the Island, specifically the conflict between Jacob and Nemesis will mean that the timelines will have points of intersection, such as Christian being not quite dead in both. Ultimately Jack will have a choice between the two.
- Christian has always been the embodiment of the monster. If you go back and think about the things he did, you will see that the purpose of all those actions were to create the final situation so that he can kill Jacob. He asked Locke to move the island and then helped him go after everyone and die consequently, separated Claire so Kate have a reason to come back, and taunted Jack to make him a believer. The monster takes the shape of dead bodies. He also used Eko's brother body and told him that he was not Eko's brother.
- When Ilana sees the cabin she notices the ash circle is broken and notes that "someone else has been using it for some time" - this means that Christian/the smoke monster could have been using the cabin all along. It also suggests that Claire is still alive, if we accept the smoke monster can't be two people at the same time.
- Agreed. Richard has been unwittingly reporting to The Others messages which he always believed were from Jacob, but has beens a decades-long manipulation by Smokey
- Richard knew Jacob was under the statue not in the cabin.
- Christian has always been the embodiment of the monster. If you go back and think about the things he did, you will see that the purpose of all those actions were to create the final situation so that he can kill Jacob. He asked Locke to move the island and then helped him go after everyone and die consequently, separated Claire so Kate have a reason to come back, and taunted Jack to make him a believer. The monster takes the shape of dead bodies. He also used Eko's brother body and told him that he was not Eko's brother.
- All of the events will happen again, with slightly different variations, and they will be spaced closer together than on the Island. (ex. Charlie choked, and Jack brought him back to life while on the plane, but that didn't happen until S01E11 originally)
- Jin ended up with handcuffs on.
- Kate ends up in the cab with Claire, she will end up delivering Aaron just like on the island.
- Christian Shepard's body still gets lost.
- Rose talks with Jack and says "You can let go now," similar to their conversation after the original crash when she said "I'm letting you off the hook."
- Neither timeline is the way Jacob wants it to be. He's dead in one and the Island is underwater in the other. In the course of the season, he will seek a middle path.
- This is very similar to Jake and Roland's dilemma in The Dark Tower III: The Wastelands. Tthe losties in the sideway flashes will start to remember events from the original timeline causing a paradox in their mind from remembering simultaneous events that coincide with each other which will eventually drive them crazy. It is been stated and observed that The Dark Tower is a large influence on Lost so this seems reasonable.
- Keep in mind the teaser video posted years ago, Orchid Orientation video. In it, we see that Dharma had accidentally created a duplicate rabbit. This is why Juliet had said that it worked. They have created a copy of themselves at the point of the accident. One flew on towards LAX, while the other crashed, unaffected. So technically, WHH AND they changed history. See the episode of Star Trek Voyager: "Deadlock".
- The "duplicate rabbit" is a time clone, i.e. the same rabbit except older/younger, much like the duplicate Marty and Doc in Back To The Future Part II. It is not a copy any more than watching yourself on video is a copy of you. The losties from the alternate timeline are not time clones.
- Since light and dark figure so heavily into what's happening now, the regular timeline (the temple one) is considered the "dark" timeline. And the alternate timeline (815 not crashing) is the "light" one. Everyone in the "light" timeline appears to be somewhat happier than they were in "dark" one.i.e. Locke not being so sad about the walkabout (if still didn't go on it), Hurley considering himself lucky, Jack not being as frantic about burying his father and so on.
- Not necessarily - FLock talks about all the others not recognizing how pathetic their off-island lives are, and we start to see it in your so-called "light" timleline: Kate is still running, Claire is still getting rid of her baby, Jin is arrested and Sun is still in denial, Charlie is still a drug addict and arrested, Jack is still easing into alcoholic behaviour, Lock is still crippled, Boone is still covering for his sister. On the other hand, Hurley seems happier, Sawyer seems friendlier, Rose and Bernard are still their lovey-dovey selves and Sayid, well, we don't get much of a view of him other than he knows how to kick in a door.
- It is highly possible that the losties already have the ability to "peek" into the other universe. For example, when Jack sees Desmond and says "Don't i know you from somewhere?" It is highly possible this is Jack having fragment memories from what originally occurred. As well as when Juliet is dying her last intended words were "it worked". Showing that she saw into the universe where the bomb blew up and everything went as planned.
- This could parallel what happened to Desmond when he turned the fail-safe and blew up the Hatch.
- Matthew Fox stated that 'A third of the way through the final season, the two time lines will be "solidified into one" and "will be very linear – no more flashbacks, nothing." Because this was said before the start of season 6 i assumed he meant that the Losties back in 1977 would come back to the present. However, this happens at the beginning of LA X so i assume he means these two alternate timelines we're watching but how will they converge a third of the way in? Also, Carlton and Damon were cagey when asked about whether the no-plane crash timeline was a result of the bomb. I know people have already said this but i also think that the producers want us to think the bomb caused an alternate time line but we know they are anti-paradox and so i think we will see how this alternate time line is caused by events in 2007.
- What if right before the bomb went off, there was another jump in the timeline causing those at the Swan station to go foreword in time at a point where the bomb never went off; however, after the timeline jump another timeline was created where the bomb did go off. So essentially, at the island the bomb never went off and they were transported to the current time where Sun and all of them are (This explains why Jacob said he died an hour ago and not 30 years ago into the future) and on the plane they are living in a timeline where the bomb did go off.
- That's exactly what happened, and pretty self-evident from the episode.
- The plan worked, the bomb detonated. This destroyed the island, hence the hatch was never built, and the never crashed on the island. Hence creating a new time-loop. However, before Juliet detonated the bomb, overwhelming surge of magnetic energy emanating from the pocket caused the present losties to time-travel before the bomb managed to kill them. So, they travelled to the future within their own time-loop, before it was changed. Hence, all of the losties involved must die in this 'past' time loop in order to truly move onto the next 'time-loop' that they themselves created. Juliet was already on the way there when she was dying,and she could see that 'it worked' and finally went there when she died.
- Juliet said it worked, but what they don't realize is that they are the copy. The video demonstrated that two copies are created. In this reality, Daniel has created an infinite loop where they create their own destruction. Everything that happens in this reality will lead them back to where they started. Because they meddled with time in the first place, they've created an unstable reality that can't possibly sustain itself. Just like the babies that didn't live, this reality can't survive because it was never meant to be at all. And this all started with the arrival of Daniel in the first place.
- There was nothing to indicate that in the non-crashing timeline the Oceanic flight happens in 2004, like it did in the crashing timeline. It may occur in 2010 (LA X?), or at some other point in the "future". Since many other things are different in that time line, there is no reason to assume that the flight occurs in the same year as in the 'original' timeline. This could even place it in the 'future' of the 'original' timeline, and the island may even sink between 2007/6/8 and 2010.
- Looking at the cellphone that Jack was in possession of at the airport, it seems like a model that would be used in 2003-2004 (judging by looks alone).
- There may even be a way for these two sets of events to be happening in the SAME timeline - with one Jack on the island in 2007 (how did he get there?) and one Jack on the plane in 2010 (though there is less evidence of this).
- There would have been a noticeable complication at the airport if the plane had departed from 2004 and landed in 2010.
- This theory is stating that the flight left in 2010 and arrived in 2010 (or whatever year it is). In other words, we are joining the losties at a different time period, and the flight which brought them all together occurred later in all of their futures. This would not be dissimilar to the trick of having Jin having flashbacks and Sun having flashforwards in one episode.
- The flight number was still 815, and it still passed over the island, which is apparently in different places at different times. You are correct that there's no proof, but there is evidence that it's still 2004, or similar enough to 2004.
- The flight number is never identified. And there is no evidence that it is still 2004. Any of the events we see happen could have happened at any point in time. There was nothing date specific about it.
- On the screen capture included in this article, you can only make out "Oceanic" because Nadia's picture is blocking the flight number. But you can clearly make out 815 in another scene, when sayid is waiting by the luggage carrousel.
- Airlines reuse flight numbers every few days or weeks, so there are thousands of flight #815s.
- Actually Flight Numbers are reused every day. For instance American flight 3944 flies from JFK to BWI every day at 3:45
- The flight number is never identified. And there is no evidence that it is still 2004. Any of the events we see happen could have happened at any point in time. There was nothing date specific about it.
- Frank Lapidus stated that he was the original pilot scheduled to fly Oceanic 815
- The non-crashing timelime implies that the correct pilot should be at the helm since many of the main Losties are shown with the addition of Desmond although he disappeared durig the toilet incident.
- Captain Norris was always meant to pilot this flight despite Lapidus' claims.
- Unless all the main character's memories are wiped, they would have recognized each other if these events happened after their experiences on the island. Also, that would involve the resurrection of several main characters and an unlikely repetition of events (Jack's dad couldn't have died twice).
- That doesn't really make sense. This particular theory isn't that the alternate timeline is actually the same timeline, the theory is that it's still an alternate timeline, the events just happened 3 years later than the similar events in the original timeline. That way they "Flash sideways" would be between 2007(8?) and 2007(8?10?) instead of 2007(8?) to 2004.
- Except that the original premise of this topic specifically stated that it could be the future of the original timeline. I agree, it doesn't make sense. In fact, none of it makes sense even for this show. They're not trying to throw a gigantic red herring here. If there's any "future" about the timeline, it's a linear future of the characters after a successful reset. I also find this unlikely considering what we've been told about the flashes.
- That doesn't really make sense. This particular theory isn't that the alternate timeline is actually the same timeline, the theory is that it's still an alternate timeline, the events just happened 3 years later than the similar events in the original timeline. That way they "Flash sideways" would be between 2007(8?) and 2007(8?10?) instead of 2007(8?) to 2004.
- This doesn't seem likely. Claire hasn't had her baby, Jin cannot speak or understand english and Charlie is still addicted to heroin. These are traits and characteristics of the original losties, before they came to the island. This timeline is the result of everything that is going to happen this season. We just watched the outcome of the good/bad struggle that is coming to the island.
- We didn't actually see a pregnant Claire did we?
- No, we only saw Claire from the chest up in a 2-shot with Kate. The first thing that I thought when watching that was that she might not be pregnant.
- Who says Charlie is still addicted to heroin in the no-crash timeline? Charlie was found unconcious in the toilets with a wrap of heroin in the back of his throat.
- All of these things could have happened at a later date - we've seen that the timeline is different enough.
- We didn't actually see a pregnant Claire did we?
- This could also be used to explain a possibly-older Walt, if he shows up like that.
- When Locke tells Boone about a plane being able to have a successful water landing with a good pilot and calm seas he might be referring to Sullenberger landing the US Air flight on the Hudson river in 2009.
- But then Boone, unless Boone-X is surprisingly a complete shut-in, wouldn't have responded to Locke like he did. He would've already known about that. PLUS, that's stretching it for the show. They reference very very few events from the real world - purposefully.
- The opening scenes, prior to the point when the plane went down in the original timeline, are exactly the same as what we saw in season one. (For example, the stewardess slipping Jack a drink, and Jack talking to Rose.) We are meant to infer from this that we are seeing the original Oceanic 815 flight.
- Unless this happened in the same timeline as the one where the plane crashed (which is not possible because the passengers would recognize each other), it really wouldn't matter if the flight took place in another year. Because of this, there would be absolutely no reason for the writers to make this the case.
- It is interesting though that they pretty explicitly don't provide year information. As someone explained above this could also explain older Walt.
- There could be duplicates of everyone in a single timeline, though this seems unlikely. One Jack on the plane, one on the island.
- Just look at document date, when Sayid takes a look at the photo of Nadia. In the right bottom of US Customs Document, the year is seen as 07.
- Nice! So it's at least 2007! I wonder how old that document is when he looks at it.
- Screen? If you are referring to when he's standing next to Arzt at the luggage carousel, I can't see anything in the bottom right. There's some writing at the top right, "Jarrah", "Sayid", but if that is a date next to it, I can't make it out.
- I see 04 as the year on Custom Form, supposing it is a date what is seen next to Sayid's name. At the bottom right there is something but I can't read it but it doesn't look like a date.
- I too would like a screenshot of that. I saw the 04 on the Custom Form as well.
- It is date - 04.25.72 - birthdate
- I add a snapshot of the scene and the customs form. In the bottom right corner there must be a date, the last two digits must be the year, but unfortunatelly it is not clear enough, it could be a 04 or a 07 if anyone has got an HD snapshot...
Sayids custom form
US Custom Form
- Updated snapshot with HD version. It could be a 4, 7, or 9!! It looks deliberately weird to me!
- If you zoom in, it definitely appears to be a 7 (the kind with a horizontal cross in the middle).
- It does appear that way but if you look at the 7 in year of his birth date higher up, it's a regular seven. So maybe it's actually a four with a scribble behind it. I thought it was a European seven as well, but if it were, he would have written his other seven that way.
- I thought of that too! but doesn't the handwriting of the numbers at the top look totally different from the handwriting at the bottom in general?
- It has to be 2004. When Claire gets her ultrasound by Ethan, the date on the screen is 2004!
- I thought of that too! but doesn't the handwriting of the numbers at the top look totally different from the handwriting at the bottom in general?
- It does appear that way but if you look at the 7 in year of his birth date higher up, it's a regular seven. So maybe it's actually a four with a scribble behind it. I thought it was a European seven as well, but if it were, he would have written his other seven that way.
- If you zoom in, it definitely appears to be a 7 (the kind with a horizontal cross in the middle).
- Updated snapshot with HD version. It could be a 4, 7, or 9!! It looks deliberately weird to me!
- It could be the future, somehow, did you notice that in the original Oceanic 815 flight Sawyer had short hair, and got to the island like this? and in the alternative timeline he had long hair, almost like in the island.
- I think that's just one of those things that they hope you don't notice. You can't have Sawyer cut his hair for the flight, and then have it short on the island in 2007, as well.
Timeline x: flashbacks
- What I mean by this is that the alternate reality is the opposite of the flash-forward theory- its a flashback. A flashback to the original timeline in which Jacob has not touched anybody. But in the actual reality (as we know it), Jacob has touched people and its made a significant difference. Jacob decided in my original reality that things were not working (island submerged), and decided to change things up a bit.
- If this were true, the plane would have never crashed, so the alternate reality would be the only one. Unless some unknown event in the original timeline eventually created the one we know. But what event could be that one?
- Before anyone started playing around with time-travel, a single original time-line existed. Everything in the original time-line was normal and linear with no hint of the supernatural. The "flash-sideways" were are viewing in Season 6, the one where Jack & Desmond are on the plane together, demonstrate the original timeline. Some science project that we'll see in Season 6 caused a cascade of new time-lines to form. All time-lines are anchored by the same intersection point, but the events that lead up to their intersection point are not identical. The intersection is what the "X" represents in the title of Season 6's episode, "LA X." New time-lines are noisy versions of the original, but there are constants that occur in all possible time-lines. If too much noise gets introduced into a time-line, that time-line will course correct to arrive at the intersection point. For example, Charlie says that he's supposed to die in "LA X." He's not consciously making a mystical statement, he's pragmatically lamenting that Jack prevented his suicide. At the same time, his words illustrate to the viewer a constant in all possible realities-- Charlie dies in 2004. Charlie's survival was fated, and his survival on Flight 815 in Season 1 required that extraordinary events occur to kill him off. Likewise John Locke's miraculous survival until 2007 suggests his 2007 death is a constant. The bad luck that surrounds, but does not touch, Hurley in Seasons 1-5 could illustrate that his luckiness is a constant, but the fate of those surrounding him is variable.
- The implication of this theory is that the series is out of Chronological order, kind of like the movie Memento. Most narratives consist of Act 1, where the characters and problem are introduced, Act 2 where obstacles prevent the problem's solution, and Act 3 where the conflicts get resolved. Season 6's flash-sideways are actually Act 1. Over the course of Season 6, the problem will be more clearly defined, and it likely has something to do with the unstoppable creation of new time lines. Act 3 ended when Juliet ignited the bomb and said, "It worked." She indicated that all new time-lines will co-exist with the original time-line, but no more will ever splinter off. Seasons 1-5 have served as Act 2, and allowed the writer lots of freedom to provide detours so long as they didn't preclude Act 3 from occurring. We've never known what Acts 1 & 3 were, so we've ignorantly played along as Nikki & Paulo, the tailies, and various sidestories and MacGuffins spread the story over six seasons.
- The Flash Sideways Timeline actually is the past. Jacob states in The Incident that "it only ends once. Everything up to that point is only progress." What he means is that He has lived through a lot of timeloops, changing bits of them each time, thus resulting in the timeline of season 6 on the island. There we see that his list on the cave wall is almost completely crossed out, meaning that he is very close to achieving his goal. And once that is achieved, "it" ends. So the Flash sideways timeline is one of the timeloops, in which he hasn't yet made enough changes so as to bring all of his "candidates" onto the island.
Whatever happened, happened
- Flight 815 crashed on the island, Benjamin Linus and John Locke turned the frozen wheel all to get Faraday into the past and the plutonium core into the "Incident Chamber" as I call it. That however was not enough to detonate the plutonium core which would have contained the EM energy and prevented the island from sinking. Since the core did not detonate on its own, an alternate timeline was created in which the island sank and Juliet's sister was still dying from cancer. Someone, probably Eloise Hawking knew there was an alternate timeline and convinced Juliet to travel across dimensions to detonate the core, crash 815, save the island, create the initial timeline and save her sister from cancer. There's still no point in saying "but if this happened, that wouldn't have happened", because both timelines did happen and were critical to things being the way they always have been.
- EXACTLY!! This is my favorite point thus far: we can not assume that any event in any timeline has the ability to negate any event in any other timeline. Because we see that there are elements of 'destiny', (such as Charlie's unavoidable death, Michael's inability to commit suicide) as well as elements of 'free will' (Ben's murder of Jacob, etc.), it is impossible to know where cause and effect begin or end. If one cause of an event is relived and changed, we must assume that the effect may still occur by a different cause....
- On the non-crash timeline Charlie's unavoidable death, may just have become Charlie's inabiity to commit suicide.
- EXACTLY!! This is my favorite point thus far: we can not assume that any event in any timeline has the ability to negate any event in any other timeline. Because we see that there are elements of 'destiny', (such as Charlie's unavoidable death, Michael's inability to commit suicide) as well as elements of 'free will' (Ben's murder of Jacob, etc.), it is impossible to know where cause and effect begin or end. If one cause of an event is relived and changed, we must assume that the effect may still occur by a different cause....
- The existence of Alternate Timeline was not caused by the bomb. Regardless of what one may want to believe, a thermonuclear device can not be detonated by pounding on it. The Alternate Timeline was caused by Jacob's death. In passing, Jacob dies at night in 2007; the Event occurs during the day in 1977. We're dealing with time travel here, so what do a few hours matter?
- 2007: Ben kills or mortally wounds Jacob; The Man in Black pushes Jacob/the corpse into the fire where he/it is instantly consumed; the battle of the foot plays out; the Others (plus) on the beach see the signal flare; the Nemesis beats Richard senseless, throws him onto his shoulder, and walks away.
- 1977: Juliet is beating uselessly on the bomb; thirty years into the future Jacob dies; the time travellers (but not the DHARMAites) get launched forward to 2004; in slightly different circumstances (different backstories?), they have boarded Oceanic 815; things start to unravel when a slightly disoriented Jack notices a cut on his neck and is joined by Desmond (who is there to play his role as time cop); there are various interactions up through the point when everyone is trying to get away from the airport; gradually (but not yet seen) more and more of the passengers become more aware of what really happened on the Island and -- somehow -- go forward to 2007, where they wake up in the vicinity of the Swan crater; they do all the things we've seen them do, to include seeing the Others at the Temple set off the signal flare to warn Others located anywhere else on the Island to head for safety.
- The killing of Jacob and Smokey's attack on Bram and the others shall henceforth be called "The battle of the foot"
- The signal flare is the unifying event that tells us that everyone is together in time again.
- I agree that the time jump from 1977 to 2007 could have been caused by Jacob's death, because I think Jacob had touched all of the people who were to be transported to 2007 to help him against the nemesis ("they're coming"). Of course, I don't know why Juliet time jumped then.
- Good one. I would add that Jacob knew he was going to get killed. He planned everything and probably even knew the Losties would succed in detonating the bomb, causing the time jump to 2007 ("they're coming", as explained above) . This is also why he gave Hurley the guitar case/ankh/message. He knew that since he was going to be dead, his instructions to go to temple and deliver the message could only be heard by Hurley.
- Also note thank Jacob told Hurley that his ability to see the dead was a gift. Of course, we now know that Jacob was counting on Hurley's gift. With Hurley on the Island, Jacob can still communicate with the living via him. Think of Kenobi's intentional defeat by Vader in "Star Wars" : "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..." Jacob let himself die (Ben noted that he never even fought back). He knew Hurley would be there so that his death would give the monster the feeling of a small victory even though it's probably all part of Jacob's plan.
- Good one. I would add that Jacob knew he was going to get killed. He planned everything and probably even knew the Losties would succed in detonating the bomb, causing the time jump to 2007 ("they're coming", as explained above) . This is also why he gave Hurley the guitar case/ankh/message. He knew that since he was going to be dead, his instructions to go to temple and deliver the message could only be heard by Hurley.
- I agree that the time jump from 1977 to 2007 could have been caused by Jacob's death, because I think Jacob had touched all of the people who were to be transported to 2007 to help him against the nemesis ("they're coming"). Of course, I don't know why Juliet time jumped then.
- Whatever happened happened, but you also can't go back in time and kill your own grandfather. The grandfather paradox is a standard question addressed when considering time travel, and it basically states that you cannot go back in time, and do something that would prevent you from going back in time in the first place. One of the most common solutions for the grandfather paradox is that if you do such a thing, you create a new dimension/new timeline other than the one you originally traveled from, where such a thing had always happened. So rather than your grandfather being killed by you, your grandfather is killed by (essentially) a dimensional interloper who is you, but slightly different. This is what happened when the bomb was detonated. In the original timeline, whatever happened, did indeed happen. The time travelers didn't do anything in the past that hadn't already been done, aside from detonating the bomb, at which point the splinter timeline was created and they were returned to their relative 'present'.
- Is there a possibility (based on "what happened happened" and the "grandfather paradox") that the divergent time line was provoked by Faraday getting killed by his own mother? We do not know if the bomb went off or not, it is possible that everything the losties did in the 70's still somehow got corrected. The only "incident" which would be hard to be course corrected would be Faraday's own death at the hands of his mother occurring in the past. If he is dead, how can he even have started traveling in time?
- Because he was killed after he started traveling in time, not before. If he had killed Eloise while she was pregnant, or before conceiving, this would create a paradox, or if she had killed a young Daniel after he was born. None of these things happened. Killing a time traveling Daniel doesn't stop him from time traveling retroactively....
- Is there a possibility (based on "what happened happened" and the "grandfather paradox") that the divergent time line was provoked by Faraday getting killed by his own mother? We do not know if the bomb went off or not, it is possible that everything the losties did in the 70's still somehow got corrected. The only "incident" which would be hard to be course corrected would be Faraday's own death at the hands of his mother occurring in the past. If he is dead, how can he even have started traveling in time?
- Juliet's banging on the bomb could have detonated it, because Sayid rigged the bomb to detonate with a pressure trigger, which apparently was somewhat faulty or not calibrated properly, since the initial drop didn't set it off. Thus, more impacts would have a chance of setting off the device.
- Based on the show's theory on Space/Time travel it's quite clear that the past and present can not be changed because "what's done is done." All the time traveling that the characters have gone thru are part of the same spinning record. However, there must have been an original time-line that transpired before anyone traveled thru time and thus creating an infinite loop. I believe the episode "LAX" is this original time-line. This is what happened amongst the passengers before there was any meddling of time. This meddling was mainly done by the Smoke Monster who was trying to find a loophole to kill Jacob (ex. Making Locke appear to be special). This means that this original time-line from the episode "LAX" only occurred once because the moment people start traveling thru time an infinite loop is created that can not be broken. Sensibly, time can only be changed once before this infinite loop is created.
- The original timeline included events created by time travelers. Time was not meddled with. This is what is meant by "Whatever happened, happened". It's not as simple as not being able to change the past, rather whatever actions they take will ultimately lead to the past and present they already know. Even if they directly take action to stop the future from happening, that alternate future will find a way to course correct.
- True , but you still need that original time-line before the time travel started. Think about a straight line with point a at the start and point z at the end. Lets say the time travelers need to get to point c to alter the past they still need to get to point z the FIRST time to get back to point c. So this means that from point d to z it would be different, but you would still have that first line from d to z before the past was altered.
- I really like this theory and feel that it would be a good story to see that these characters still end up doing the same things even before the island. Also it would be good to show the character development and maybe show WHY they are the ones chosen for the island and find out what event(s) caused the loop. I also like this theory because I just cant see where else this alt-time is going...even if this alt-future corrects itself...they are not the same characters we have followed for 5 seasons. The problem I have with this whole thing though it that the island can allow time travel..but its underwater..and do we know if the MIB can leave the island to set these events up? I think for this theory to work we would have to assume that the blast in 1977 only happened to bring the losties to the same point in time in 2007 and did not destroy/sink the island.
- This is exactly how it is supposed to be. Island can't be destroyed by the explosion in 1977, because that would mean that the losties have no place to get lost on in the first place in 2004, so they can't get to 1977 to detonate the bomb.
A perfect example as to why there must have been an original time-line is the issue of Locke and the compass. In the last season, the compass was first given to Locke by Richard not too long after Locke had been shot in the leg. Locke then traveled back to the 50's and gave the compass to a Richard who was unfamiliar with Locke. Richard holds on to that compass for over 50 years until he is visited by the fake Locke and told to give it to the real Locke during the time he had been shot in the leg and thus creating a time-loop. So the question we need to ask is where did the compass originally come from? If there is no original time-line to explain its origins then we are left with a paradox.
- It was a test by Flocke partly to see if Richard could tell the difference and Flocke was testing the timeline for loopholes - he engineered Locke's position on the island.
- Has it crossed your mind that the paradox was left there on purpose to illustrate the very fact that "Whatever happened, happened"? People who have study the theories of time-travel fall into two campus - one being that the past can never be changed and two the past can be changed and create paradoxes. So if you believe that there was an original timeline, you fall into the question of how the hell did everyone get to the island to begin with, seeing as how the events of the island are dependent on the Losties traveling back to the 70s. If you believe, as I do, that truly "Whatever happened, happened" then they were ALWAYS meant to go back. A paradox is not an "impossibility", but simple a "seeming impossibility".
- True, but the reason why I personaly like this theory is that it is...well simple. This is the last season. Opening up alternative timelines, paradoxes, quantum theories, is all fine and dandy but that leaves so much to explain in itself, let alone all the questions still left to answer from the past 5 seasons. If this were to be the oringinal time-line, it would be easy to explain, we dont have to throw away all the back stories of the characters that we followed at the end of the series, and they can use this to still make the season character centric by learning how and why they got on the island in the first place.
- I just read the well written theory by Sean, I am now even more convinced that this original time-line could very well be the course that the show will take. Will only this season to go. This is a great way to explain why they were chosen or "touched" by jacob. even if jacob is good fo bad this will show why them. I agree with above. I dont see why the producers/writers would even write a lot of back story with the characters or even write jacob and his whole touching the main characters in their past. They have known or had an idea how it will end and I ust cant see them wasting all that. I also cant see that this "LA X" timeline being the "epilogue" or the result of what is going to happen at the end of series. Maybe they will and write it beuatifully. I would just hate if after the end the characters and us viewers didnt have this entire "journey" to reflect on. Why not jsut watch season 6 and thats it?
- True, but the reason why I personaly like this theory is that it is...well simple. This is the last season. Opening up alternative timelines, paradoxes, quantum theories, is all fine and dandy but that leaves so much to explain in itself, let alone all the questions still left to answer from the past 5 seasons. If this were to be the oringinal time-line, it would be easy to explain, we dont have to throw away all the back stories of the characters that we followed at the end of the series, and they can use this to still make the season character centric by learning how and why they got on the island in the first place.
- The original timeline is one in which no time-traveling occurs. In this timeline, the D.I. drill into the energy pocket, which causes the island to sink, preventing 815 from eventually crashing. At the earliest point in time that the time-skippers went to (this would be when Sawyer found himself holding onto a rope leading into the ground), a new timeline was created, leaving the original untouched. The new timeline is everything we've seen so far outside of the side-flashes in the new season.
- "Whatever Happened, Happened" is true for each timeline on its own - all the time-travel that ultimately resulted in the bomb going off at the Swan site was an unchangeable part of the alternate timeline. Miles was right - the bomb detonation WAS the Incident. Jack's attempt to change the future actually just set it in motion - as seen earlier with Sayid's attempt to kill Ben. And in the original timeline, WHH because the new timeline split away without affecting it.
- The new timeline was ultimately set in motion by Jacob's Nemesis, in the form of Christian, who told Locke to move the island. This doesn't seem to make sense, since this occurs in the future of the alternate timeline - the altenate universe seems to be self-creating. However, the writers foreshadowed this revelation by showing us something similar on a smaller scale - the compass. It exists in a closed loop, necessitating its own existence.
- Yes, I had a similar theory (before it was deleted), I believe that Jacob somehow survived the island's sinking and decided to go back in time and it was Jacob, and Jacob alone who started the new timeline by go around to certain people and touching them. I believe it was this act that created the new timeline, and I also think the people who we have seen been touched were not the only ones.
- LAX is a real and only one possible time line and therefore history. In it the 815 flight lands safely in LAX AND also crashes on an island with unique properties, which does not exist. That is how:
- - Because of electromagnetic anomalies and “negatively charged exotic matter” and such, time and space is distorted around the island. Time itself is a relative term – one must have a starting point to tell a point in time. So, on the Island every group of people lives in a time line related to this particular group. Every group’s individual time line is linear and straight but these lines can not necessarily be parallel to each other – that’s how people from the plane were able to visit other groups on the Island in different moments of their history and how a particular group experience (or imagines) the time flaw is not necessarily real. (It is possible that Others have a ritual or some kind of process that attaches and detaches (Juliet) them to/from the island’s time line).
- - Because of the possibility of random intersections of timelines of different groups numerous time loops are created within the borders of the anomaly making it increasingly unstable and in theory not existent for the outside world. If we take the example with the compass: if one event falls out of the sequence the compass ceases to exist – if Richard would not give it to Locke, Locke will not be able to give it back to Richard and compass as well as the whole world around it, Richard and Locke changes, that is disappears. Therefore the Island is a closed universe within the borders of the anomaly and created by a complex web of time loops.
- - The Island can be approached by any conventional transport if a right portal, which is a point in space where real Island space and time are in sync with the outside world’s space-time, exist and can be found. Leaving the island with a transport that was build in the outside world will bring one to a point in time relative to this transport with a possibility of some small discrepancies. Leaving the island is also possible through the turning of the ancient weel – this would send one to a random (from their view point) point in time – imagine jumping from a spinning carousel – and therefore is “both, dangerous and unpredictable”.
- You frget that Dharma was able to come and go as they please to the island from the outside world
- no, just read the whole paragraph. --V-vk 05:26, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
- - Now, it is clear that because of these unique properties noting that happens on the island can influence the course of the outside world history, because it does not exist. It means that Faraday was wrong about the Swan site and the bomb – one cannot change the events by changing the objects ON the Island (that is why it was also safe for DHARMA to conduct their experiments here). The crash of the flight 815 was caused by a human error (Desmond, and we still do not know what caused the flight 316 emergency landing), so in order to change history (only personal history of individuals can be changed, that is restored) the responsible person, Desmond in this case, must be changed first.
- According to this theory “finding a loophole” means finding a most fragile event of the sequence of events and destroying the loop and the Island. And the clues that we can look for in the LAX time line are the changes in characters that appear because of not interference from the native “Island’s” characters.
- --V-vk 04:09, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
Three Possible Universes
- There are three universes in LOST. The first being Universe A with everything happening on the island in the 70's WITHOUT the survivors from Oceanic 815. Universe B is what the survivors from Oceanic 815 are in now on the island. Universe C is the island underwater with the crash never occurring.
- Universe A doesn't really exist anymore. The bomb went off as Juliet even said "it worked." Therefore, everyone in that time period died and then island eventually went underwater. The survivors of 815 jumped in time instead of being blown up because they weren't supposed to be in that time to begin with.
- First of all, just because the island was destroyed does not mean that the timeline does not exist anymore. And as far as the 815 time travel, everything on the plane had to be as similar to the oceanic flight. Sun was not with Jin on the flight, and Ben and Lipedus were never on the Oceanic flight. Thats why they didn't get caught in the flash.
- We aren't entirely certain which timeline this new one is, though. It has the hatch just as Desmond destroyed it, so it could very well be the original Losties timeline. Losties taking clothing and objects with them between timelines is not strange, either.
- I think that it is likely there are really only two universes. The alternate reality we are seeing with the plane never crashing didn't come into existence at the moment Juliet blew up the bomb, it came into existence at the moment Ben turned the wheel to move the island. This sent the Losties back in time, creating a new universe. Thus Dharmaville with Sawyer and Juliet in the past is Universe B, which is the universe in which the plane never crashed and the Island is on the bottom of the ocean. When Juliet hit the bomb to make it blow up, the 1977 Losties, including herself, Jack, Sawyer, etc. jumped back to the present of Universe A.
- Okay an edit to the above post. The moment at which the alternate universe (ie Universe B) was created is not when Ben turns the wheel, its when Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid, go back to 1977. Think about it. Locke had to always go back to 1954 so Richard could meet him and then go meet him when he was a boy. That was part of Universe A's timeline. Similarly, Faraday had to always go back in time, because 2007 Eloise knew she shot her son in 1977, so Faraday always was supposed to go back in time and try to change the future only to be shot by his mother. This means that LaFluer was always a part of the history of Dharmaville in Universe A. However when Jack, Kate, Sayed, and Hurley went back in time becasue they didn't replicate the original flight, this created an alternate universe. In Universe A, Jack never shows up in 70's Dharmaville, Faraday gets shot by Eloise, the incident occurs and the Swan has to built, Desmond doesn't push the button, the plane crashes. In Universe B, Jack shows up in 1977 Dharmaville and carries Faraday's plan to fruition. In Universe B, the moment Juliet hits the bomb, the Losties from the future shift over to Universe A in 2007, just after Jacob is killed by Ben. Just after the Losties shift over to Universe A, the island in Universe B gets buried under the ocean.
- If that is the case though and Sayid was never supposed to go back to 1977 in Universe A. How did Ben become an other in Universe A? In your version of Universe B, the events that set Ben up to be an other come from being shot by Sayid as a kid.
- When Sayid shot Ben it changed things towards Universe B, as Ben's father realizes how important his son is to him, being worried when he was shot, when he was taken by Kate and Sawyer, and then seeks revenge over Sayid. That would make Ben not to become an "Other". That is Universe B, where the island is under the sea, Ben is a regular joe, flight 815 never crashes, etc. But the events that set Universe A are still the same: Ben was neglected by his own father, he saw his mother, had a conversation with Richard and etc. keep in mind that nature balances its books, as we saw the duality of black and white throughout the seasons, Universe A and B should be seen in the same manner. Whatever happened, happened.
- Juliet realizes that the time jump happened right before the explosion (she says it worked and they should get coffee[possibly because as she dies she is able to sense the other reality]) so the group ends up in the present while the explosion changes the past at the same time, creating to seperate threads in which the island was destroyed and one where nothing changed. The change in the past affected the entire world but only very little leading to differences on the plane. Everything occured in the same way, but i believe the first time Juliet did not succeed in blowing up the bomb and that is why there is a different universes to begin with
- Right. The question is at what point does Universe B come into existence. It can't be when the bomb goes off because if the bomb went off in Universe A then the island would be on the bottom of the ocean (as it is in Universe B). So at what point do the timelines split? it has to happen some point before the bomb went off in Universe B. Perhaps the split occurred when Jack, Kate, Hurlie, and Sayed went back to 1977. Perhaps in the past of Universe A, Sawyer, Jin, Juliet, and Miles where living in dharmaville, but they then left the island when faraday came back to blow it up. Faraday was unsuccessful and killed by his mom. Incident occurred and the hatch was built. Perhaps in Universe B though, the appearance of Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayed in the past triggered the events of the bomb sucessfully going off.
- I don't think the time lines split when Jack, Hurley, Kate, and Sayid come to the island. If that was so, how could Sun and Frank have found the picture of them with the Dharma initiative in 2007?
- This also explains the white flash at the end, possibly not the bomb exploding
- Juliet realizes that the time jump happened right before the explosion (she says it worked and they should get coffee[possibly because as she dies she is able to sense the other reality]) so the group ends up in the present while the explosion changes the past at the same time, creating to seperate threads in which the island was destroyed and one where nothing changed. The change in the past affected the entire world but only very little leading to differences on the plane. Everything occured in the same way, but i believe the first time Juliet did not succeed in blowing up the bomb and that is why there is a different universes to begin with
- When Sayid shot Ben it changed things towards Universe B, as Ben's father realizes how important his son is to him, being worried when he was shot, when he was taken by Kate and Sawyer, and then seeks revenge over Sayid. That would make Ben not to become an "Other". That is Universe B, where the island is under the sea, Ben is a regular joe, flight 815 never crashes, etc. But the events that set Universe A are still the same: Ben was neglected by his own father, he saw his mother, had a conversation with Richard and etc. keep in mind that nature balances its books, as we saw the duality of black and white throughout the seasons, Universe A and B should be seen in the same manner. Whatever happened, happened.
- If that is the case though and Sayid was never supposed to go back to 1977 in Universe A. How did Ben become an other in Universe A? In your version of Universe B, the events that set Ben up to be an other come from being shot by Sayid as a kid.
- Okay an edit to the above post. The moment at which the alternate universe (ie Universe B) was created is not when Ben turns the wheel, its when Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid, go back to 1977. Think about it. Locke had to always go back to 1954 so Richard could meet him and then go meet him when he was a boy. That was part of Universe A's timeline. Similarly, Faraday had to always go back in time, because 2007 Eloise knew she shot her son in 1977, so Faraday always was supposed to go back in time and try to change the future only to be shot by his mother. This means that LaFluer was always a part of the history of Dharmaville in Universe A. However when Jack, Kate, Sayed, and Hurley went back in time becasue they didn't replicate the original flight, this created an alternate universe. In Universe A, Jack never shows up in 70's Dharmaville, Faraday gets shot by Eloise, the incident occurs and the Swan has to built, Desmond doesn't push the button, the plane crashes. In Universe B, Jack shows up in 1977 Dharmaville and carries Faraday's plan to fruition. In Universe B, the moment Juliet hits the bomb, the Losties from the future shift over to Universe A in 2007, just after Jacob is killed by Ben. Just after the Losties shift over to Universe A, the island in Universe B gets buried under the ocean.
- This timeline is 2007, we are shown proof of this because when the Others at the Temple set off the red flare it is seen by the group with Richard Alpert (which include Ben, Sun and etc who were in the 2007 timeline with the Ajira 316 flight people). So we can assume by this information that the survivors that time jumped to 1977 have now returned to the original 2007 timeline.
- My problem with the idea that the bomb actually went off in both universes is that means that the second universe always existed. Because the only difference between Universe A and Universe B in that scenario would be what happens as a result of the bomb going off. So to me, if the bomb goes off in both universes, that means that there was never a split between the universes but there were two separate lines all along. So that is all fine and dandy but my problem with that is the producers say the two realities will converge. Why would the two realities converge if they were separate all along? Now, I feel like the bomb going off in both universes means there were two separate lines of reality all along because if the bomb goes off in both universes then the characters were always fulfilling their destiny. They never did anything different from what they were predestined to do. If that were the case that would mean in Universe A Sawyer, Faraday and company go back to 1974, then Jack and company join them in 1977, and then Faraday is killed by Eloise, then Jack takes the bomb to the drilling and Juliet sets it off. All this was supposed to happen in Universe A, and it results in the island not being burried under the ocean, but instead it results in the incident and the necessity for the swan station to be built. The Losties jumped forward to 2007, Ben, becomes and Other, Rousseau lands on the island, Ben and the Others purge the Dharma folks in 1992, Desmond crashes on the island, Desomnd failes to push the button in 2004 and Oceanic flight 815 crashes on the island. That would be Universe A. But in Universe B, if the bomb explodes as well, then that means Sawyer, Faraday and company go back to 1974, then Jack and company join them in 1977, and then Faraday is killed by Eloise, then Jack takes the bomb to the drilling and Juliet sets it off. All the same as Universe A except that instead of the bomb being the incident the bomb is actually enough to stop the incident, it burries the island under the ocean, potentially killing everyone on the island. Maybe kid Ben dies, maybe Widmore dies in the explosion, maybe Eloise is dead, maybe Penny and Faraday are never born. oceanic flight 815 never crashes in 2004. The problem with all of this though is, if all of this was supposed to happen in Universe A and nothing was different from Universe B except for the actual result of the explosion then what is the giant triggering event that sends the Losties back to 2007 after the 1977 explosion? Why would the Losties jump back to the future if all they did was what they were supposed to do? Furthermore, if everything that happened, happened as it was supposed to in Universe A, why would this trigger a split in reality resulting in two universes? To me the asnwer is that everything did not happen as it was supposed to. Because if everything did happen as it was supposed to it would mean that there have always been two alternate universes because nothing different occured that would result in a split in reality. So the issue for me is that the big change between Universe A and B cannot be the result of the explosion. The explosion happened in Universe B. The explosion could not have happened in Universe A. So, here is what i was thinking. I thought perhaps the universes converged when Ben first turned the wheel, moivng the island and starting the time shifts. The problem with this is then Richard never would have met Locke in 1954 . This can't be the case because we know (or assume) that in Universe A, Richard visited young Locke off the island. So the split did not happen when Ben turned the wheel sending the Losties back in time because in Universe A Richard saw Locke in 1954, then visited him as a kid. So then I thought, maybe the split occured when Locke turned the wheel. But this would mean that Sawyer, Faraday and company would never have traveled back in time to 1974, and his mom never would have killed him. The problem with this is we assume that 2007 Universe A Eloise knows she killed her son back in 1977. So the split did not happen when Locke turned the wheel. So then I thought maybe it happened when Jack, and company flew on Ajira airways and went back to 1977. In this scenario Faraday may still have been killed by his mom without Jack going back, thus foiling his plan to blow up the island. The problem with this though is it is unclear if Ben would have become an Other and the evil SOB that he is because Sayid never would have shot him. Maybe he would have. But also, it just doesn't seem right. So here is what i am thinking. The Man in Black and Jacob always tell the characters they have choices. Even though the show so often makes it seem like people are merely living out their destiny regardless of their efforts to change the future and excercise free will. Faraday has said it would take a huge change to alter the past. We think this means a giant explosion. But really i think it was a decision leading up the giant explosion. The decision I am thinking that caused the split was Juliet's decision to get off the sub or maybe Juliet's decision to get Sawyer help Jack blow up the Swan site, or Juliet's decison at the bottom of the pit to hit the bomb and make it go off. I think the big change is most likely the middle decision. Juliet's decision to convince Sawyer to help Jack blow up the site. I'm thinking that in the past of Universe A, Juliet and Sawyer along with Kate get off the sub, go out and stop Jack from blowing up the Swan site. The incident occurs and the Swan site gets built. Juliet and Sawyer may live out their lives but Juliet regrets having done this because she thinks Sawyer still loves Kate. In Universe B however, Juliet somehow sees that she will regret this decision, she somehow is able to see her future in Universe A (because Juliet somehow becomes aware of both universes). So Juliet decides that she needs to tell Sawyer they will help Jack and then they go blow up the Swan site. Thus burying the island under the ocean and setting off a chain of events that leads to Oceanic flight 815 not crashing in 2004. I think Juliet is the key to this because she is the one that hits the bomb and because just when Sawyer wakes her up, moments before she dies, she tells him they should go get coffee. Juliet was seeing into the other universe. In Universe B, Juliet and Sawyer will go get coffee in LA. Guaranteed. Now, as for why Christian's body is missing in Universe B? I have no idea. But i think this best explains the split, it accounts for most contingencies and it makes possible the re-uniting or the converging of the two domensions at some point in the future. And in my opinion, Universe B Juliet, as well as Desmond, in both Universe A and B will be key. I bet Universe B juliet has to convince some of the Losties of the other universe. And maybe Desmond from Universe A and B needs to be in the same time and place in both universes to make the realities come back together. Like he needs to be at the same longitude and latititude on the same date and time in the different universes. Maybe.
- This is not the hatch as Desmond destroyed it. It is the Swan station before it was built, hence all the dirt. Once Des blew it up, the outside edges of it seemed to be covered in all sorts or rebar and whatnot.
- The presence of Desmond's bike in the wreckage seems to suggest it is Desmond's hatch as he destroyed it.
- Kate even says its the hatch after Desmond destroyed it. There are also the passage ways to all the other station visible in the dirt crater. Its clearly after ALL the different Darma stations have been built, thus, not 1977 any more.
- Swayer says "That's the damn Swan Hatch. Blown up, just like we left it before we started jumping through time". So I think this proves it's the Hatch that Desmond made explode turning the key at the end of Season 2. The differences must come from production of the episode, sometimes you can't analyze everything that much.
- Once the Losties are captured by the Others they shoot a flare that is seen by Richard on the beach which we know to be 2007.
- I think that it is likely there are really only two universes. The alternate reality we are seeing with the plane never crashing didn't come into existence at the moment Juliet blew up the bomb, it came into existence at the moment Ben turned the wheel to move the island. This sent the Losties back in time, creating a new universe. Thus Dharmaville with Sawyer and Juliet in the past is Universe B, which is the universe in which the plane never crashed and the Island is on the bottom of the ocean. When Juliet hit the bomb to make it blow up, the 1977 Losties, including herself, Jack, Sawyer, etc. jumped back to the present of Universe A.
- Universes A B and C may be true, as we can see in these episodes there are three bodies of John Locke, 1 for each universe. Locke, Jacob and His Nemesis are the only three that have been in all of these times.
- It's obviously the one they were in before (B) since when the new group of Others shot the flare, Richard saw it.
- That's a good connection. They have to be in the same timeline as Flocke, Ben, etc.
- Universe A doesn't really exist anymore. The bomb went off as Juliet even said "it worked." Therefore, everyone in that time period died and then island eventually went underwater. The survivors of 815 jumped in time instead of being blown up because they weren't supposed to be in that time to begin with.
- It's not necessarily a different timeline, but could rather the the result of a reset that hasn't occurred yet (see Timeline Jumps section for more details)
- From what I can tell, there are only 2 realities/timelines right now. One where 815 never crashed (I'll call it "Timeline A" and one where they did (Timeline 1). Timeline A includes the island being underwater. Timeline 1 includes the crash and everything leading up to the explosion of Jughead. Timeline 1 also includes Flocke and Richard's group at the statue, The group at the hatch and everyone at the temple. The reason for their appearing to be 3 Lockes is Timeline A Locke is the real Locke for that timeline. Timeline 1 Dead Locke is the real Locke for that timeline. Timeline 1 Flocke is the nemesis taking the form of Locke. He can presumably take any form he wants as shown when he impersonated Yemi.
- Do not forget that Jack's fathers body is missing and on the Island either the Nemesis or Jacob had taken his image. So if Oceanic can not find Christian's body is there a possibility that the Nemesis or Jacob are now in his image in the new Time Line.
- I relate this issue with the timelines to the Schrödinger's cat paradox where a cat in a closed box containing a jar of hydrochloric acid that can shattered by a hammer when activated by radioisotope decay. However, there is an equal chance that there is no radioisotope decay, so in a closed box the cat is both dead and alive at the same time (it's more complicated than that but that's the just as I see it). Thus when Juliet hits the hydrogen bomb it goes off and it doesn't at the same time and we are now seeing the consequences of both events occurring.
- I definitely agree with this, the two universes that exist are obviously the results of both the explosion happening and "not happening". While in both instances the explosion "happened" In Timeline 1 it simply sent the 815ers back to 2007 with Flocke and Ben on the beach, whereas in Timeline 2 it reset the timeline so they never reached the Island
- Yes, agreed. Faraday still has to be proved wrong, especially when he talked about variables. Juliet was clearly the variable and if you paid attention during "The Incident" you'll notice how variable was Juliet's mind: she changed her mind 5 times over the course of the episode. Under that state of mind, it was equally possible for her to make such a delicate moment go either way. My personal theory is that in the "loop timeline" she changed her mind at the moment of hanging for her life off Sawyer's hand, and deciding to stay with him, she got a better grip until Kate undid the chains dragging her down.
- I think that it is possible that what we thought were flashbacks in the incident, actually occurred in the alternate sideways universe. Maybe the reason why things are different on the plane is because Jacob went back in time and changed things, possibly to thank the survivors for the things they are going to do this season. For instance people have noticed that Sawyer is now nice to the people he comes in contact with. Maybe this is because he didn't write the letter, and let go of the anger he was holding onto about his parents death.
- Then why was he in Australia? He was nice to Kate because he saw her handcuffs and felt camaraderie with a fellow criminal (who also happened to be attractive and female). I think the alternate universe is one in which the bomb going off did reset things - and perhaps altered the Valenzetti Equation - while the timeline on the island is one in which the bomb going off was the Incident.
- All of the people seemed to be in Australia for the same reasons that they were before, there were just subtle differences. And everything that happened on the island is going to happen in the alternate timeline, just in different ways (obviously).
- I'm thinking that there was originally only one line of reality. The Losties going back to 1970 was originally part of that reality from the beginning. Hence this is why Richard went to visit young Locke. Because all along Locke had visited Richard in 1950 on the island during the time jumps. So this was the original linear timeline, with people jumping back and forth to different parts of that timeline. However the explosion that Juliet set off caused a new timeline to be created. Think of one line that now all of a sudden has another line jutting out of it, like a branch from a tree. So what we are seeing when the plane lands in LAX is an alternate reality where the bomb went off and buried the Island under the ocean (which begs the question, are kid Ben, 70's Widmore, 70' Eloise Hawkings and everyone else that was on the island dead in this alternate reality? were Faraday and Penny thus never born? Maybe that is why Des is on the plane. There is no Penny). I'm assuming that when the bomb went off in 1977, Jack, Kate, Sawyer Juliet, etc. jumped back to the present of the original line of reality. Why they didnt just die in the explosion I don't know. It may have had something to do with them not being originally from that time period of that line of reality. Either way we now have two lines of reality. One in which the hatch was built, Desmond didn't push the button, and the plane crashed. And one in which the hatch was never built because the bomb went off and the island is on the bottom of the ocean. One question to think about though is in the new line of reality, the one where the island is buried on the bottom of the ocean, what happened to 1977 Losties when the bomb went off? Would we find the bodies of Jack, Kate and Sawyer, etc. on the bottom of the ocean? This creates a paradox in a sense because grown up Jack and the rest of the Losties are on the plane in 2004 and it lands in LAX, but at the same time Jack's, Kate's, Sawyer's, etc's 27 year old Skeleton's are on the bottom of the ocean. Interesting. Also, like mentioned above, in the original line of reality, the incident that led to the necessity of the Swan being created must have been the bomb going off (as long as we assume the Losties always were supposed to travel through time in the original reality, otherwise we would have to accept a third reality as discussed above). But if the bomb going off always was the incident, that means this alternate reality has always been in existence. Trippy stuff. These kinds of paradoxes won't easily be resolved by the show's creators.
- Also, Alpert tells Sun that he remembers Kate, Jack, Jin etc and saw them all die. Not easy to get your head round.
- Look at it like this: in one timeline, the bomb goes off and the island sinks and the plane lands in LAX. In the other timeline the bomb doesn't go off, but the survivors time-jump to 2007 where we see Juliet in the Swan, Kate hanging from the tree, Locke dead, Nemesis in the statue, etc. This is the timeline where Alpert sees them die (in 1977)-- he watched them disappear before his eyes (the time-jump).
- Most likely in the timeline that loops, the bomb doesn't go off and following the incident, Dharma (or rather Radzinski) has the Losties executed, which is presenced by Richard.
- Surely 'the incident' is not the bomb being exploded because the bomb would destroy the entire island not just disrupt the pocket of energy, I always believed the incident occurred when the dharma team drilled too far, the incident was prevented since jack and co intervened thus in the original reality drilling disrupted the pocket and the swan station was built in the branched reality the bomb went off and destroyed the island. As to the question of jack, kate, sawyer etc's bodies I thought the time flash had occurred just before the explosion and therefore there was no jack, kate, sawyer in the 1977 timeframe when the bomb exploded and therefore no dead bodies however the comment by richard does raise questions.
- Also, Alpert tells Sun that he remembers Kate, Jack, Jin etc and saw them all die. Not easy to get your head round.
- There are two timelines/universes. One for the losties, who experienced the crash, went back in time, and have now returned to 2007, and one for their younger/unborn selves as they lived or waited to be born in the 1970's. Their younger/unborn selves are the ones "benefiting" from the incident. The selves that set off the bomb continue to have experienced their island lives. Question for the younger/unborn selves is how course correction will catch up to them.
- The "parallel timelines" might just be one timeline. What if they're both the same thread, just showing us that whatever happens, happens? So what if in this "new" timeline, Oceanic 815 didn't crash, but somehow the island rises from the sea and all the Losties end up on the island again in some other way?
- My assumption was that we were seeing two points on an alternate time line in which 815 did not crash but the group ended up on the island anyway because they were meant to - they simply got there later. The only thing from the past I think they've mentioned so far is their plan for exploding the bomb. Who knows if in this new time line as well they reached a point where they were exploding a bomb to save themselves - but all their other memories are different than before. Maybe that will come to light as the season progresses. They seem to recognize the Temple-dwellers as Others...but to me, they don't look like the Others that we're all used to.
- I believe there's no multiverse and these two timelines are not independent realities or universes. Rather, as we've been hinted several times, the Island (being itself able to travel through time) maintains it's own timeline inside its borders (remember the timing unaccuracies of test rockets shot from the Kahana?) As it is now, the Island exists in the same universe and timeline of LAX, only not in the same time where you'd expect it to be (2008, over 3 years after the Oceanic 815's crash that never happened). If the people inside the Island were able to leave it now... what time would they find the rest of the world to be at? I think our only hint is Jacob's Nemesis saying he wants to go "home", meaning perhaps his birth/era/ rather than his birthplace. Think of it as the timeline making a buckle in 2007 that went back to 1977, and kept going, generating a new 1977-2004 timeline replacing the old one... which now only exists inside the Island, whenever it is in world-time.
- There is only one timeline. The Airplane/LAX scenes are what is happening at the end. Basically its a Pulp Fiction style story where we are watching in a different order, we are watching what will happen when everything gets sorted at the end. I think the very last scene of the show could be the first scene of series 6 with Jack's eyes. The explosion has moved all the 70's Losties to their companions and they will join the battle with Jacob and his nemesis. The resolution of this battle will involve the Jacob or his nemesis winning control, Losties never crashing and the island being "lost" forever. I have a feeling they all will die on the island, but their 'deaths' will mean them moving to the point where series 6 started.
- We have two timelines. The first, being the original LOST timeline we watched for 5 seasons where everything "always had to happen this exact way" and no paradox had been created. The losties went back in time, messing up with their own lives and development (even without knowing it, like Locke whose going back in time caused Richard to visit him and eventually become the leader and die through a chain of events). At this point the time is linear, while the chronological order doesn't have an importance in LOST. In this timeline, the bomb DOESN'T go off, and the initiative uses it to create the failsafe mechanism in the afterwards-built swan station. BUT... when the bomb went off, that's something that was not supposed to happen in this timeline. It created a paradox, because the swan pocket of energy is now neutralized, the swan is never built, Desmond never worked there, the losties never crash, the island is not even there as we've seen it sunk down in the ocean... so they are not there to turn the wheel, go back in time, involve with DHARMA, initiate Locke as a new leader, kill Faraday and turn his mother into a time-policeman etc etc etc.... But if that happens, then they are not even there to blow up the swan! So, a loop would start where the swan exists, the losties crash again, go back in time, blow it up again and ...you get my point... So it seems that in LOST, when a paradox time-loop is about to be created, a new timeline is created by it. Think of it as a paradox-avoiding mechanism of LOST. I see no paradox in the pre-Incident episodes we've seen as all the facts fit with each other without creating a loop. But this one would create a time-loop, maybe the whole thing involves the human's free will and existence of variables in Faraday's equations, only Faraday did not include the possibility of other timelines being created when a variable changes.
The Swan station was said to be constructed as a measure of controlling the electromagnetic energy pocket. The ‘incident’ that occurred in the original timeline led the DI to use the Swan station as a safety valve to release some of this energy to ‘save the world’. Desmond is eventually left with the job of pushing the button. The day that he doesn’t push the button results in the crash of Flight 815 and the timeline that we all know so well. In the divergent timeline Flight 815 lands safely with Desmond onboard because he is not on the island as the “Button Pusher”, because he never went to Oxford to find Faraday because he was never skipping through time because the ‘incident’ never occurred. Widmore never fakes the crash of 815 and never dispatches the freighter to look for the Island. Faraday never arrives on the Island with the freighter, he therefore never travels back to the 50’s when the Bomb is originally discovered by the Others, he doesn’t diffuse it, or have it buried. He never comes up with the plan the negate the energy release from the ‘incident’. He is also never shot by his mother, Eloise. His journal, with all his notes about time travel and the history of the island is never left behind the past. This journal is probably what leads Eloise to keep Daniel focused on his studies, he must someday in future come back to the past, get shot and leave his journal. It is likely that there were many other things in this journal that aided Charles Widmore in amassing his fortune. If the journal never comes to the past, Widmore doesn’t obtain the resources to relentlessly search for the island. His daughter Penny never meets Desmond. Desmond in the ‘prime’ timeline is coerced into meeting Penny because Faraday’s journal specifically relates their story, as Penny is Desmond’s constant and Desmond, likewise, is Faraday’s. .
- What Happens Happens, and the new no-crash timeline is the correct timeline, while all events since the crash are time's efforts to right an error.
- Think of everything through Richard's standpoint. 2007 is not an alternate timeline it is the orignal. In 2007 , Richard tells Sun that he "watched them die" ("Follow the Leader") when she asks about the new DHARMA members (Jack, Kate, and Hurley). Therefore, Ben moving the wheel did not start the new timeline, Locke moving the wheel didn't either, because Jack Kate and Hurley were always in 1977 (just like Daniel was always in 1977 and always got shot by his mom and like how Locke was always in 1954 to meet Richard for the first time [in Richard's mind it was the first time]). The new timeline would have to begin moments before Juliet's last strike on Jughead. In the main timeline, they get timewarped to 2007 WHEN JACOB DIES (just moments before Juliet hits the bomb the final time). This would go along with the theory that 1977 and 2007 ran parallel to each other. Richard sees them disappear and assumes that they died, Juliet assumes she set off the bomb (and tells Sawyer in 2007). When Juliet begins to die, she gets a glimpse of the alternate timeline and tells Sawyer that "it worked". Timeline B, they don't get timewarped, Juliet detonates Jughead, everyone dies, the island sinks, and 27 years later many of the Losties end up on a flight together under many of the same circumstances.
- Ok. Let me do my best to explain this. The timeline where everyone is on the plane as if it didn't crash shows the island at the bottom of the ocean. Within THAT timeline, they HAD to crash on the island or else they wouldn't have been there to go back in time and blow up the island. If they never crashed, it wouldn't have blown up, and it wouldn't be at the bottom. My theory is that when people come to the island, their lives continue. The two lives meet up when you die on the island. That's why people have said strange things before they die. Juliet's chat about getting coffee and going dutch was what was happening in the alternate life. Same with Charlotte. At the time of her death, her alternate life was just a child (being born in 71 and dying while one of her lives were in the late 70s). The random mublings just before she died weren't memories, it's what she was saying at that time in her alternate life.
This may not be the first time an 'alternate timeline' has been introduced in the Series.
- See This discussion. There was a huge debate about the barracks being different in the 2007 and 2004 versions, and at the time there was no obvious explanation, other than to hypothesise that there were two sets of Dharma Barracks in two different locations. Well, that seems exactly what there was. The 2007 version has a derelict 'processing center' which is very different from the 2004 processing center. Now you can say that things changed, they changed the building or whatever, but in hindsight with what we now know is happening, an alternate timeline theory here is not out of the question. The con to this however is that (a) Ben appears to know his way around his house the 2007 Barracks, and is not phased by any of the apparent differences, and (b) there is a game of Risk in one of the houses which had been left in 2004 by Sawyer et. al prior to the time jumping episodes.
- Further evidence that this IS a different timeline is the difference between the Swan Hatch implosions site in the 2007 version, and the one in 2004 (Flashes before Your Eyes), and the fact that Desmond's bike was found in the debris, but in FBYE it was lying in the jungle.
Desmond's Role in Alternate Universes
- We have seen alternate timeines before, mostly with Desmond. As Faraday told him, Desmond is "special" because "the rules don't apply to him." What Faraday is suggesting is that Desmond has the ability to experience several timelines. This is evidenced by the following:
- In the episode Flashes Before Your Eyes Desmond had a prescient knowledge of the future (he had thoughts about the Island, the button, etc). And yet, he was ready to propose to Penelope if Eloise Hawking had not intervened. Eloise suggests that Desmond never purchases the ring, and instead walks out. So the fact that Desmond DOES purchase the ring (even though he later throws it into water) suggests that he's CHANGED something. Of course, since he didn't propose to Penelope and broke up with her anyway, nothing "significant" changed.
- In the episode The Constant Desmond met with Daniel Faraday in 1996. Yet, when Desmond met Faraday on the Island in 2004 (by the helicopter), he didn't know him. That's because Desmond created a NEW timeline by meeting with Faraday in 1996.
- Desmond prevents Charlie's death several times, which eventually leads to the discovery of Naomi, which sets in motion all of the events of Seasons 4 and 5 (no Naomi = no mercenaries = no turning the wheel).
- Juliet, before she died, was experiencing the same thing Desmond was. This is because both of them were exposed to incredible amounts of electromagnetic energy. This gave Juliet the ability to experience more than one universe simultaneously, which is why she wanted to tell Sawyer "it worked." Had Juliet survived, she would have had the same kind of "powers" as Desmond.
Alternate Universes and Course Correction
- Desmond and Eloise Hawking insist that "the universe tends to unfold as it should." This is why Charlie must die. And yet, if Desmond had allowed Charlie to die the first time (with the lightning), then Naomi would never have been discovered, and seasons 4 and 5 would be completely different.
- Jack saved Charlie's life on the non-crashing timeline. There was no need for Desmond's intervention.
- We've seen with Jacob and his Nemesis, hints that they represent "free will" and "fate." Jacob always insists on people having choices while his Nemesis claims that "it always ends the same." What's important is this interaction between fate and free will. There is a general "course" for all people, which is why Charlie was "supposed to die" and Desmond was "supposed to push the button," and all that. But free will still comes into play. So, this alternate universe is showing us that while the "courses" can look dramatically different (crashing on the Island vs. not crashing on the Island), the general path (or "destiny" if you will) for each character remains.
- This is interesting - because you might wonder "how can Locke get back his ability to walk in that timeline?" .. but maybe Jack _does_ "fix" him!
- But even if he did fix him, how did he get back on the island fixed? I mean, even if due to the electromagnetic energy over the island you can travel from one parallel universe to the other, Locke couldn't walk on the way to Sydney and he couldn't walk on the way back. So if Jack fixed him after they returned to LA, wouldn't he have to fly over the island again as "fixed", to explain his "cure" on the day of the crash?
Transdimensional Travel
- Now that there are two timelines, the unique electromagnetic energy that allows for time travel on the island will also allow for travel between the two dimensions in certain circumstances.
- This is how Christian's body was lost in the alternate timeline; his body was transferred to the original timeline when the plane hit the "turbulence" while traveling above the island.
- This theory might make sense. In the season 5 episode "316" Eloise Hawking tells jack that he has to re-create the conditions of first flight as closly as possible in order to return to the island. When they flew over the island a few of the oceanic 6 were flashed to the island. So because there were some similarites in the flash-sideways flight, those similarites like Christian body in the coffin were flashed to the island when the plane flew over.
- This is how Christian's body was lost in the alternate timeline; his body was transferred to the original timeline when the plane hit the "turbulence" while traveling above the island.
Connection With 'Flashes Before Your Eyes
The 'parallel reality' seen in Flashes Before Your Eyes is one and the same with the one being shown in season 6. Desmond had already gained access to it and now so have the rest of the survivors. I guess we'll have to see what Desmond X's back story is before we can know if this is true or not.
When did the Flash-sideways timeline diverge from the original 815 crash timeline?
This section explores new material from What Kate Does (i.e. the appearance of Ethan), together with previous material (that from LA X, Parts 1 & 2, and shows that there are important conclusions to be drawn, namely that the losties were not responsible for the alt timeline being created, and the divergence from the 815 crash timeline must have occured either before 1974 or after 1989. If you find flaws in my reasoning, please discuss this on the talk page.
1. In both this episode and the 2004 original timeline, Ethan = Ethan Goodspeed (= Ethan Rom?)
2. In the original S1-5 version, Ethan's parents were Amy & Horace, but she only married Horace after the Hostiles had killed Amy's husband Paul, and the time-travelling losties stopped the Hostiles from killing her. If the losties had not travelled back to 1974, then, in that timeline, Amy would be dead, and could not have married Horace, with the consequence that Ethan would not exist.
In what follows, I have assumed the existence of a 'single pass through the storyline', i.e. it is possible for events to occur in separate timelines, but in order to maintain integrity, in the storyline A must precede B, B must precede C etc. All events must have causes, even if that cause occurs because of something that hasn't happened yet.
Observation 1: In any timeline where the events occurred in the original island timeline up to the point in 1974 when the losties arrived, but the Losties do NOT time travel back to this point, Ethan cannot be born on the island.
Note that this means that if Ethan is born on the island, and the losties did not travel back, then the circumstances must have been different well prior to the point at which Amy was captured: Amy is not captured, but she & her husband must have split in some other manner, and subsequently still marry Goodspeed. This timeline must therefore have diverged from the original S1-5 timeline, prior to 1974, when Amy was rescued; if it did not, she would be dead. In this case, Since Ethan is alive, but the island is underwater, Ethan must then have left the island prior to its demise. Although we have seen Ethan was on the island in 1989 (see Ethan Rom#1989, this event may not have happened in this ‘alt’ timeline. All that we can say is that he must have left after 1977 when we know Ethan was born. Note that since the losties did not have any involvement in these events, they were not responsible for the island’s demise.
Suppose now that the losties did travel back and did play their part in Ethan's existance, and the events in S1-5 did play out, up to and including the events of The Incident, Parts 1 & 2. We now have two possibilities. (a) Either the incident resulted in some sort of shift/fracture/divergence to the timeline, or (b) it didn't. We have seen a timeline which involvesEthan & Ben kidnapping Alex in 1989. If this timeline is the one in which alt Ethan is now residing, this would mean that this version of Ethan left the island after 1989, when the island would still be in existence. Therefore, whatever the cause of its demise, it was not down to the 1977 time-travelling losties. Clearly, this would imply that this timeline must have resulted from case (b), where the bomb did not fracture the timeline. Let us now return to the case where the events of the Incident played out, and timelines were affected. If the consequence of the existence of such an event is the appearance of Alt Ethan, then we know that all of Alt Ethan's back history up to and including the events of 1977, were the same as those of Ethan. In other words, he was born on the island, and was subsequently evacuated. However, in this new timeline, there are no losties to travel back in time to ensure that his mother does not die (unless this happens subsequently). This means that the 1974 time-travelling losties who rescued Alt Ethan's mother( = Ethan's mother), were from a different timeline, and one which is running concurrently with the Flash-Sideways timeline. The consequence of this is that there are (at least) two independent realities, which have been in existence since at least 1977, and possibly earlier (for example, the first appearance of Faraday in 1954 could have triggered such a fracture). While this line of reasoning presents us with a bifurcation of timelines, It cannot be concluded definitely that the incident was the event which caused the bifurcation of timelines.
Similarly, the consequences of Ethan NOT being born on the island, means that he must have been conceived in some alternate timeline. This timeline must have been in existence since at least the time of his conception, and probably much earlier. This means that in 1976, when Ethan was conceived, Amy & Horace were living on the mainland. (How they might have got together is an interesting speculation, but not totally relevant). We can conclude in this case, that it is a completely different timeline to anything we have seen in S1-5, and it must have diverged from the timeline prior to 1974 (otherwise Amy would have been killed), and by 1977 neither Amy nor Horace were part of the DI on the island. However we do know that in this timeline, the DI still did go to the island (witness Dharmaville & the shark in LA X, Parts 1 & 2. This means that Horace nor Amy were either never recruited, or if recruited, left the island prior to 1977. Consequently, we can conclude that the losties did not time-travel back to this underwater ‘alt’ island, and therefore could not have been responsible for its being underwater.
Therefore:
Possibility A: If the alt timeline introduced in LA X, Parts 1 & 2 was not the result of the incident, then the flash-sideways timeline diverged from the original 2004 timeline Either prior to 1974, Or sometime after 1989. In either case, the losties were not responsible for the island being underwater.
Possibility B: If, on the other hand, the alt timeline was created as a result of the incident, then in 2004, two timelines are running simultaneously. Their histories coincide up until 1977.
In order to determine which of these is correct, we should look out for people in the alt timeline whose existence is dependent upon events which occur on the island during or after 1977. For example, we know that both Eloise and Widmore were on the island in 1977, and were presumably killed when the island went underwater. If she exists in the alt timeline, then this implies that Possibility B cannot be true, and we are left only with possibility A. Either that or an intricately involved retcon job by the producers.
Just J.J Abrams excuse
The Flash Sideways is just a way on how to get killed off characters their characters back... This is because most killed off actors wanted to be in for the final season.
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